Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / September 2006
Is a "bigger, brighter" viewfinder worth it? (D80 vs D50)
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Scott Speck - 25 Aug 2006 22:35 GMT Hi Everyone,
I really like my D50, but the upcoming D80 has me wondering -- with the bigger LCD display and the bigger, brighter viewfinder -- these are two features I, in my picture taking, could really use, IF they made a difference. I can see where seeing more detail, "on the fly" on the LCD screen, would allow me to figure out if I had to reshoot, and, if so, better how to adjust my camera's settings. However, will a bigger, brighter viewfinder aid me in achieving good manual focus? I take lots of insect macro pictures (2 inches away from dragonflies, etc), and accurate focus is a challenge for me. I want to eventually achieve pixel-level focus, manually, and I'm wondering if a brighter viewfinder would help.
Also, will the D80 sensor be significantly better than the D50 sensor? Other than megapixel count, I mean -- such as sensitivity, noise level, etc.
Thanks for any help, Scott
Frank B - 25 Aug 2006 23:18 GMT I love my D50 too. I would like the bigger viewfinder and added features of the D80. We will have to wait to make a judgment on image quality, other than resolution, and see more pictures and test results. I will be surprised if the D80 has lower noise or better dynamic range than the D50 with its smaller pixels. It might though be able to match the d50, which would be excellent performance fro a 10mP 1.5x sensor.
For anyone who is interested I have posted a review of the D50 here:
http://www.digitaldingus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3029
and a review of the Nikon 18-200 VR with links to many other reviews here:
http://www.digitaldingus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3033
> Hi Everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Thanks for any help, > Scott Bill - 25 Aug 2006 23:22 GMT >I really like my D50, but the upcoming D80 has me wondering -- with the >bigger LCD display and the bigger, brighter viewfinder -- these are two [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >how to adjust my camera's settings. However, will a bigger, brighter >viewfinder aid me in achieving good manual focus? Generally I'd say yes.
But go to a camera store and check out the D200 viewfinder. That should give you some indication.
>Also, will the D80 sensor be significantly better than the D50 sensor? >Other than megapixel count, I mean -- such as sensitivity, noise level, etc. We don't know yet...a proper hands-on review of a production model has yet to be posted on the internet.
I've seen a few sample high ISO images that are promising, but they're not always representative of actual performance.
donharper@theedgephotography.com - 26 Aug 2006 01:28 GMT > Hi Everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Thanks for any help, > Scott Without actually using the new camera one can only speculate. I can say that I do a lot of low light photography and find a large bright viewfinder critical to getting good images. That and bright fast glass that allows more light to reach the mirror.
bmoag - 26 Aug 2006 01:29 GMT For my purposes the difference in megapixel count between the D50/70 and D80/200 is not a dealmaker as the dynamic range of the sensor is no different. Noise levels at normal ISOs are already amazingly low for these early (in the sense that this is the beginning of the digital photo age) sensors and I rarely use high ISOs anyway. One downside for me for the D80 is that it does not use compact flash cards. For those of us with gigagbytes worth of those cards this can be a significant added cost. The major upside for the D80, and it could be a can't live without dealmaker, is a better viewfinder than the D70. The D70 is the best camera with the worse viewfinder ever made.
Joan - 26 Aug 2006 01:55 GMT Maybe you need to rethink your file storage methodology. The card in the camera is temporary storage. The space it requires in the camera makes a significant difference to the size of the camera.
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: For my purposes the difference in megapixel count between the D50/70 and : D80/200 is not a dealmaker as the dynamic range of the sensor is no [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] : dealmaker, is a better viewfinder than the D70. The D70 is the best camera : with the worse viewfinder ever made. Bill - 26 Aug 2006 03:10 GMT >Maybe you need to rethink your file storage methodology. The card in >the camera is temporary storage. The space it requires in the camera >makes a significant difference to the size of the camera. I'm not so sure about that.
Look at the tiny cameras like the Canon XT that uses CF cards, and all the smaller P&S models that use CF. And when you consider the size of both cards, it's not hard to add a millimeter to make it fit.
No, I think Nikon was building the D80 based on the D50 body and packing all the extra features into it, so they simply left the SD card slot in there to minimize design changes. I believe they were in a hurry to release it, so they wanted to develop it as quick as possible.
Canon was doing the same thing with their XTi model and that's why it hasn't changed all that much in physical shape.
Bill - 26 Aug 2006 03:10 GMT >One downside for me for the D80 is that it does not use compact flash cards. >For those of us with gigagbytes worth of those cards this can be a >significant added cost. Why? If you sell your current camera, you could sell your CF cards along with it.
I'm surprised Nikon used SD as well, but it's not a massive problem. And if you're dropping a grand or more on a camera, a couple of cards shouldn't be a big deal.
>The major upside for the D80, and it could be a can't live without >dealmaker, is a better viewfinder than the D70. The D70 is the best camera >with the worse viewfinder ever made. I own the Canon XT/350D and use my friends' 20D and Nikon D70s a fair bit. The viewfinders are all essentially the same.
Actually the Nikon is better because it has a selectable grid for landscape shots. But for brightness and size, the D70/D50, the XT/20D all suffer from the same issues.
Compared to my film body, they all have relatively similar brightness, albeit the film body has a much larger view.
DoN. Nichols - 26 Aug 2006 04:13 GMT According to Bill <bill@c.a>:
> >One downside for me for the D80 is that it does not use compact flash cards. > >For those of us with gigagbytes worth of those cards this can be a > >significant added cost. > > Why? If you sell your current camera, you could sell your CF cards along > with it. Sell my *what*?
I would keep it as a backup camera -- just as I will keep my D70 when I get a D200. It can be used in places where I would not risk the D200 (too expensive), or I could perform the IR-filter-ectomy on it an turn it into an IR camera.
> I'm surprised Nikon used SD as well, but it's not a massive problem. And > if you're dropping a grand or more on a camera, a couple of cards > shouldn't be a big deal. It may be -- When I buy a D200, I will already be stretching the budget -- but with the D200 I won't have to worry about CF cards, as I know that it uses them.
[ ... ]
> Compared to my film body, they all have relatively similar brightness, > albeit the film body has a much larger view. Indeed so.
Enjoy, DoN.
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Alan Browne - 26 Aug 2006 15:50 GMT > Hi Everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > how to adjust my camera's settings. However, will a bigger, brighter > viewfinder aid me in achieving good manual focus? Yes. The more light, the better you see. The better you see, the better you focus.
Some AF cameras also have focus screen options for manual focus that allow greater focus control at the expense of some light. So a brighter viewfinder offsets the loss. I don't know if the D80 has focus screen options.
The LCD, even in closeup, is not a great way to verify focus. It will show obvious blunders, but is too small to analyze DOF critically. IOW what looks okay in the LCD may look slightly off in the print. Best to work on your technique and be absolutely sure the diopter setting of the viewfinder is correct for your eyesight. Make sure your shooting with your dominant eye ('right' for about 2/3 of people).
To determine the dominant eye, locate a small object across the room. With both eyes open, bring your hand up at arms length with your thumb up. Cover the far object with your thumb. Stay still. Close one eye then the other. The eye that has the thumb and the object aligned is the dominant.
Cheers, Alan
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Siggy - 26 Aug 2006 18:11 GMT 8<
> To determine the dominant eye, locate a small object across the room. > With both eyes open, bring your hand up at arms length with your thumb > up. Cover the far object with your thumb. Stay still. Close one eye > then the other. The eye that has the thumb and the object aligned is > the dominant. Interesting, Alan. Thanks. I kinda knew that but this is interesting confirmation. Do you do that as a party piece then? ;-)
Alan Browne - 10 Sep 2006 15:02 GMT > 8< > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Interesting, Alan. Thanks. I kinda knew that but this is interesting > confirmation. Do you do that as a party piece then? ;-) Yeah, and 1 out of 3 people still can't figure out which is the dominant. Another way to find the dominant is pistol or rifle shooting, the shooter quickly figures out which is which.
My SO has putting problems as she's a physical "righty" and dominant eye righty. So the whole is masked by her nose and this tends to make her shoot outside the hole (wrt the line).
Cheers, Alan.
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Alan Browne - 10 Sep 2006 16:01 GMT > My SO has putting problems as she's a physical "righty" and dominant eye > righty. So the whole is masked by her nose and this tends to make her ^ hole (sigh)
Scott in Florida - 10 Sep 2006 17:31 GMT >> 8< >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Cheers, >Alan. I was born with VERY uneven sight. Through the years I've learned to select which eye I want to use.
It caused a few 'discussions' while I was in American Navy Boot Camp.
They would put up two slides with a swing going right on one and left on the other.
They would ask which way is the swing going? ...and I'd say 'With which eye?.
That was NOT the answer they wanted to hear...LOL
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Joan - 27 Aug 2006 06:36 GMT Can't let this pass without a quote from the Nikon D50 user manual:
When using the viewfinder When operating the diopter adjustment control with your eye to the viewfinder, care should be taken not to put your finger in your eye accidentally.
 Signature Joan http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly
: > Hi Everyone, : > : > I really like my D50, but the upcoming D80 has me wondering -- with the
: > bigger LCD display and the bigger, brighter viewfinder -- these are two : > features I, in my picture taking, could really use, IF they made a [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] : Cheers, : Alan Siggy - 27 Aug 2006 09:59 GMT > Can't let this pass without a quote from the Nikon D50 user manual: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > care should be taken not to put your > finger in your eye accidentally. Ah thanks for that. I've just been having a discussion elsewhere on the unrealistic Health & Safety protocols springing up everywhere here in the UK.
A mini storm has just blown up after a 69 page Risk Assessment document produced by a London University came to light, aimed at helping schools prepare for taking kids out on a Geography Field Trip! The final sentence reads (tightly paraphrased): "Above all, ensure that before placing one foot in front of the other, you can see where you will be putting it".
Barmy.
Mike Warren - 27 Aug 2006 12:33 GMT > Can't let this pass without a quote from the Nikon D50 user manual: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > care should be taken not to put your > finger in your eye accidentally. I'm glad I read that when I got my D70s. Could have been a nasty accident.
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Joan - 27 Aug 2006 13:09 GMT Not a problem for me, 'cos I wear glasses :-)
 Signature Joan http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly
: > Can't let this pass without a quote from the Nikon D50 user manual: : > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : I'm glad I read that when I got my D70s. Could have been a nasty : accident. Mike Warren - 27 Aug 2006 12:32 GMT > To determine the dominant eye, locate a small object across the room. > With both eyes open, bring your hand up at arms length with your > thumb up. Cover the far object with your thumb. Stay still. Close > one eye then the other. The eye that has the thumb and the object > aligned is the dominant. Either I'm doing something wrong or don't have a dominant eye.
I see 2 thumbs or 2 objects depending on what I focus on.
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Alan Browne - 10 Sep 2006 15:04 GMT >>To determine the dominant eye, locate a small object across the room. >>With both eyes open, bring your hand up at arms length with your [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I see 2 thumbs or 2 objects depending on what I focus on. One eye at a time.
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Paul Furman - 30 Aug 2006 00:33 GMT > Hi Everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > how to adjust my camera's settings. However, will a bigger, brighter > viewfinder aid me in achieving good manual focus? I think so yes, that's the biggest difference when I upgraded from a D70 to a D200 was being able to actually manual focus and judge DOF. And yes the D200 LCD is much bigger with much better controls to zoom into full pixels with a couple clicks & a a twist of a dial. I don't know whether the D80 will have those same specs but those have been a big improvement for my work. Take a close look at the functions & body controls when a D80 becomes available, there are lots of functions on the D200 that give me much better control, like for example the ease of zooming on the LCD & 3 color histogram, more knobs on the body to change ISO visible in the viewfinder, etc.
> I take lots of insect > macro pictures (2 inches away from dragonflies, etc), and accurate focus is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks for any help, > Scott
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Ken Ellis - 30 Aug 2006 00:58 GMT I recently got an angle finder for my 20D and it magnifies the viewfind...big difference. These old eyes were finding manual focus a bit daunting and a bigger view helps alot - for manual focus; and when i would normally use auto but the light doesn't allow it to work properly.
size matters
cheers
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