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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / September 2006

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Is a "bigger, brighter" viewfinder worth it? (D80 vs D50)

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Scott Speck - 25 Aug 2006 22:35 GMT
Hi Everyone,

I really like my D50, but the upcoming D80 has me wondering -- with the
bigger LCD display and the bigger, brighter viewfinder -- these are two
features I, in my picture taking, could really use, IF they made a
difference.  I can see where seeing more detail, "on the fly" on the LCD
screen, would allow me to figure out if I had to reshoot, and, if so, better
how to adjust my camera's settings.  However, will a bigger, brighter
viewfinder aid me in achieving good manual focus?  I take lots of insect
macro pictures (2 inches away from dragonflies, etc), and accurate focus is
a challenge for me.  I want to eventually achieve pixel-level focus,
manually, and I'm wondering if a brighter viewfinder would help.

Also, will the D80 sensor be significantly better than the D50 sensor?
Other than megapixel count, I mean -- such as sensitivity, noise level, etc.

Thanks for any help,
Scott
Frank B - 25 Aug 2006 23:18 GMT
I love my D50 too. I would like the bigger viewfinder and added
features of the D80.  We will have to wait to make a judgment on  image
quality, other than resolution, and see more pictures and test results.
I will be surprised if the D80 has lower noise or better dynamic range
than the D50 with its smaller pixels.  It might though be able to match
the d50, which would be excellent performance fro a 10mP 1.5x sensor.

For anyone who is interested I have posted a review of the D50 here:

http://www.digitaldingus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3029

and a review of the Nikon 18-200 VR with links to many other reviews
here:

http://www.digitaldingus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3033

> Hi Everyone,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Thanks for any help,
> Scott
Bill - 25 Aug 2006 23:22 GMT
>I really like my D50, but the upcoming D80 has me wondering -- with the
>bigger LCD display and the bigger, brighter viewfinder -- these are two
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>how to adjust my camera's settings.  However, will a bigger, brighter
>viewfinder aid me in achieving good manual focus?

Generally I'd say yes.

But go to a camera store and check out the D200 viewfinder. That should
give you some indication.

>Also, will the D80 sensor be significantly better than the D50 sensor?
>Other than megapixel count, I mean -- such as sensitivity, noise level, etc.

We don't know yet...a proper hands-on review of a production model has
yet to be posted on the internet.

I've seen a few sample high ISO images that are promising, but they're
not always representative of actual performance.
donharper@theedgephotography.com - 26 Aug 2006 01:28 GMT
> Hi Everyone,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Thanks for any help,
> Scott

Without actually using the new camera one can only speculate. I can say
that I do a lot of low light photography and find a large bright
viewfinder critical to getting good images. That and bright fast glass
that allows more light to reach the mirror.
bmoag - 26 Aug 2006 01:29 GMT
For my purposes the difference in megapixel count between the D50/70 and
D80/200 is not a dealmaker as the dynamic range of the sensor is no
different. Noise levels at normal ISOs are already amazingly low for these
early (in the sense that this is the beginning of the digital photo age)
sensors and I rarely use high ISOs anyway.
One downside for me for the D80 is that it does not use compact flash cards.
For those of us with gigagbytes worth of those cards this can be a
significant added cost.
The major upside for the D80, and it could be a can't live without
dealmaker, is a better viewfinder than the D70. The D70 is the best camera
with the worse viewfinder ever made.
Joan - 26 Aug 2006 01:55 GMT
Maybe you need to rethink your file storage methodology.  The card in
the camera is temporary storage.  The space it requires in the camera
makes a significant difference to the size of the camera.

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Joan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly

: For my purposes the difference in megapixel count between the D50/70 and
: D80/200 is not a dealmaker as the dynamic range of the sensor is no
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
: dealmaker, is a better viewfinder than the D70. The D70 is the best camera
: with the worse viewfinder ever made.
Bill - 26 Aug 2006 03:10 GMT
>Maybe you need to rethink your file storage methodology.  The card in
>the camera is temporary storage.  The space it requires in the camera
>makes a significant difference to the size of the camera.

I'm not so sure about that.

Look at the tiny cameras like the Canon XT that uses CF cards, and all
the smaller P&S models that use CF. And when you consider the size of
both cards, it's not hard to add a millimeter to make it fit.

No, I think Nikon was building the D80 based on the D50 body and packing
all the extra features into it, so they simply left the SD card slot in
there to minimize design changes. I believe they were in a hurry to
release it, so they wanted to develop it as quick as possible.

Canon was doing the same thing with their XTi model and that's why it
hasn't changed all that much in physical shape.
Bill - 26 Aug 2006 03:10 GMT
>One downside for me for the D80 is that it does not use compact flash cards.
>For those of us with gigagbytes worth of those cards this can be a
>significant added cost.

Why? If you sell your current camera, you could sell your CF cards along
with it.

I'm surprised Nikon used SD as well, but it's not a massive problem. And
if you're dropping a grand or more on a camera, a couple of cards
shouldn't be a big deal.

>The major upside for the D80, and it could be a can't live without
>dealmaker, is a better viewfinder than the D70. The D70 is the best camera
>with the worse viewfinder ever made.

I own the Canon XT/350D and use my friends' 20D and Nikon D70s a fair
bit. The viewfinders are all essentially the same.

Actually the Nikon is better because it has a selectable grid for
landscape shots. But for brightness and size, the D70/D50, the XT/20D
all suffer from the same issues.

Compared to my film body, they all have relatively similar brightness,
albeit the film body has a much larger view.
DoN. Nichols - 26 Aug 2006 04:13 GMT
According to Bill  <bill@c.a>:

> >One downside for me for the D80 is that it does not use compact flash cards.
> >For those of us with gigagbytes worth of those cards this can be a
> >significant added cost.
>
> Why? If you sell your current camera, you could sell your CF cards along
> with it.

    Sell my *what*?

    I would keep it as a backup camera -- just as I will keep my D70
when I get a D200.  It can be used in places where I would not risk the
D200 (too expensive), or I could perform the IR-filter-ectomy on it an
turn it into an IR camera.

> I'm surprised Nikon used SD as well, but it's not a massive problem. And
> if you're dropping a grand or more on a camera, a couple of cards
> shouldn't be a big deal.

    It may be -- When I buy a D200, I will already be stretching the
budget -- but with the D200 I won't have to worry about CF cards, as I
know that it uses them.

    [ ... ]

> Compared to my film body, they all have relatively similar brightness,
> albeit the film body has a much larger view.

    Indeed so.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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Alan Browne - 26 Aug 2006 15:50 GMT
> Hi Everyone,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> how to adjust my camera's settings.  However, will a bigger, brighter
> viewfinder aid me in achieving good manual focus?

Yes.  The more light, the better you see.  The better you see, the
better you focus.

Some AF cameras also have focus screen options for manual focus that
allow greater focus control at the expense of some light.  So a brighter
viewfinder offsets the loss.  I don't know if the D80 has focus screen
options.

The LCD, even in closeup, is not a great way to verify focus.  It will
show obvious blunders, but is too small to analyze DOF critically.  IOW
what looks okay in the LCD may look slightly off in the print.  Best to
work on your technique and be absolutely sure the diopter setting of the
viewfinder is correct for your eyesight.  Make sure your shooting with
your dominant eye ('right' for about 2/3 of people).

To determine the dominant eye, locate a small object across the room.
With both eyes open, bring your hand up at arms length with your thumb
up.  Cover the far object with your thumb.  Stay still.  Close one eye
then the other.  The eye that has the thumb and the object aligned is
the dominant.

Cheers,
Alan

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Siggy - 26 Aug 2006 18:11 GMT
8<

> To determine the dominant eye, locate a small object across the room.
> With both eyes open, bring your hand up at arms length with your thumb
> up.  Cover the far object with your thumb.  Stay still.  Close one eye
> then the other.  The eye that has the thumb and the object aligned is
> the dominant.

Interesting, Alan. Thanks. I kinda knew that but this is interesting
confirmation. Do you do that as a party piece then? ;-)
Alan Browne - 10 Sep 2006 15:02 GMT
> 8<
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Interesting, Alan. Thanks. I kinda knew that but this is interesting
> confirmation. Do you do that as a party piece then? ;-)

Yeah, and 1 out of 3 people still can't figure out which is the
dominant.  Another way to find the dominant is pistol or rifle shooting,
the shooter quickly figures out which is which.

My SO has putting problems as she's a physical "righty" and dominant eye
righty.  So the whole is masked by her nose and this tends to make her
shoot outside the hole (wrt the line).

Cheers,
Alan.

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Alan Browne - 10 Sep 2006 16:01 GMT
> My SO has putting problems as she's a physical "righty" and dominant eye
> righty.  So the whole is masked by her nose and this tends to make her
                  ^ hole (sigh)
Scott in Florida - 10 Sep 2006 17:31 GMT
>> 8<
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Cheers,
>Alan.

I was born with VERY uneven sight.  Through the years I've learned to
select which eye I want to use.

It caused a few 'discussions' while I was in American Navy Boot Camp.

They would put up two slides with a swing going right on one and left
on the other.

They would ask which way is the swing going?  ...and I'd say 'With
which eye?.

That was NOT the answer they wanted to hear...LOL

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Scott in Florida

'The Land of the Free. Thanks to the Brave'

Joan - 27 Aug 2006 06:36 GMT
Can't let this pass without a quote from the Nikon D50 user manual:

When using the viewfinder
When operating the diopter adjustment
control with your eye to the viewfinder,
care should be taken not to put your
finger in your eye accidentally.

Signature

Joan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly

: > Hi Everyone,
: >
: > I really like my D50, but the upcoming D80 has me wondering --  
with the
: > bigger LCD display and the bigger, brighter viewfinder -- these are two
: > features I, in my picture taking, could really use, IF they made a
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
: Cheers,
: Alan
Siggy - 27 Aug 2006 09:59 GMT
> Can't let this pass without a quote from the Nikon D50 user manual:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> care should be taken not to put your
> finger in your eye accidentally.

Ah thanks for that. I've just been having a discussion elsewhere on the
unrealistic Health & Safety protocols springing up everywhere here in
the UK.

A mini storm has just blown up after a 69 page Risk Assessment document
produced by a London University came to light, aimed at helping schools
prepare for taking kids out on a Geography Field Trip! The final
sentence reads (tightly paraphrased): "Above all, ensure that before
placing one foot in front of the other, you can see where you will be
putting it".

Barmy.
Mike Warren - 27 Aug 2006 12:33 GMT
> Can't let this pass without a quote from the Nikon D50 user manual:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> care should be taken not to put your
> finger in your eye accidentally.

I'm glad I read that when I got my D70s. Could have been a nasty
accident.

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Mike Warren
My web gallery: http://web.aanet.com.au/miwa/mike

Joan - 27 Aug 2006 13:09 GMT
Not a problem for me, 'cos I wear glasses :-)

Signature

Joan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly

: > Can't let this pass without a quote from the Nikon D50 user manual:
: >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
: I'm glad I read that when I got my D70s. Could have been a nasty
: accident.
Mike Warren - 27 Aug 2006 12:32 GMT
> To determine the dominant eye, locate a small object across the room.
> With both eyes open, bring your hand up at arms length with your
> thumb up.  Cover the far object with your thumb.  Stay still.  Close
> one eye then the other.  The eye that has the thumb and the object
> aligned is the dominant.

Either I'm doing something wrong or don't have a dominant eye.

I see 2 thumbs or 2 objects depending on what I focus on.

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Mike Warren
My web gallery: http://web.aanet.com.au/miwa/mike

Alan Browne - 10 Sep 2006 15:04 GMT
>>To determine the dominant eye, locate a small object across the room.
>>With both eyes open, bring your hand up at arms length with your
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I see 2 thumbs or 2 objects depending on what I focus on.

One eye at a time.

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Paul Furman - 30 Aug 2006 00:33 GMT
> Hi Everyone,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> how to adjust my camera's settings.  However, will a bigger, brighter
> viewfinder aid me in achieving good manual focus?

I think so yes, that's the biggest difference when I upgraded from a D70
to a D200 was being able to actually manual focus and judge DOF. And yes
the D200 LCD is much bigger with much better controls to zoom into full
pixels with a couple clicks & a a twist of a dial. I don't know whether
the D80 will have those same specs but those have been a big improvement
for my work. Take a close look at the functions & body controls when a
D80 becomes available, there are lots of functions on the D200 that give
me much better control, like for example the ease of zooming on the LCD
& 3 color histogram, more knobs on the body to change ISO visible in the
viewfinder, etc.

> I take lots of insect
> macro pictures (2 inches away from dragonflies, etc), and accurate focus is
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Thanks for any help,
> Scott

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Ken Ellis - 30 Aug 2006 00:58 GMT
I recently got an angle finder for my 20D and it magnifies the
viewfind...big difference. These old eyes were finding manual focus
a bit daunting and a bigger view helps alot - for manual focus; and
when i would normally use auto but the light doesn't allow it to
work properly.

size matters

cheers
 
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