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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / August 2006

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The next EF-S lens will be...

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mexican_equivalent@yahoo.com - 25 Aug 2006 05:26 GMT
Any idea on what, and when, the next EF-S lens from Canon will be
released?

There are only 4 EF-S lenses on the market right now.  And there was
roughly a 2-year gap between the latest release (17-55mm in 2006) and
the previous one (10-22mm in 2004).

The 17-55mm f2.8 IS is probably going to be as good as it gets for the
standard zooms.  And since telephoto EF-S lenses don't make much sense,
it stands to reason that the next EF-S lens will be an upgrade of the
popular 10-22mm.

Maybe an EF-S 10-22mm f2.8?  Is it likely that there will be another 2
year gap before that one is released?  I don't wanna wait until 2008
for that one...
SkipM - 24 Aug 2006 23:25 GMT
> Any idea on what, and when, the next EF-S lens from Canon will be
> released?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> year gap before that one is released?  I don't wanna wait until 2008
> for that one...

Reading your post, it just struck me that the new 50mm f1.2L is a rough
equivalent of the only slightly less new 85mm f1.2L when mounted on a 1.6x
crop camera (80mm).  Could this be counted as a new EF-S mount lens? <G>

Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

default - 25 Aug 2006 05:58 GMT
> There are only 4 EF-S lenses on the market right now.  And there was
> roughly a 2-year gap between the latest release (17-55mm in 2006) and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> year gap before that one is released?  I don't wanna wait until 2008
> for that one...

Last I counted there were 5 EF-S lenses on the aftermarket:

EF-S 10-22mm F/3.5-4.5 USM
EF-S 17-55mm F/2.8 IS USM
EF-S 17-85mm F/4-5.6 IS USM
EF-S 18-55mm F/3.5-5.6 II USM
EF-S 60mm F/2.8 USM Macro

And of course the ever popular "kit" lens, the EF-S 18-55mm F/3.5-5.6 II
(non USM) makes six EF-S lenses.

All are quite good lenses and reasonable value except the 17-85 which I
think is much too expensive for its performance.  A 10-22mm f/2.8 would be
_really_ expensive and quite heavy for just another 2/3 stop gain.  How
about the same EF-S 10-22 F/3.5-4.5 with IS and dust seals?

Or maybe a hyperfocal button that automatically sets and maintinas the focus
distance at the hyperfocal point for the selected aperture and focal length?
That would really be useful I think.

Hmmm or start including the lens hoods in the price?
SkipM - 24 Aug 2006 23:28 GMT
> think is much too expensive for its performance.  A 10-22mm f/2.8 would be
> _really_ expensive and quite heavy for just another 2/3 stop gain.  How
> about the same EF-S 10-22 F/3.5-4.5 with IS and dust seals?

I've read, several times, this comment that an f2.8 would only be a 2/3 stop
gain, but that's only at the wide end.  At the long (less wide?) end that's
1 1/3 stop gain, don't forget.
Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

default - 25 Aug 2006 16:32 GMT
> I've read, several times, this comment that an f2.8 would only be a 2/3
> stop gain, but that's only at the wide end.  At the long (less wide?) end
> that's 1 1/3 stop gain, don't forget.

That's true and that is substantial and even at f/2.8 there would be a large
depth of field but the lens is already quite expensive with pretty extreme
elements in it.  To expand it to f/2.8 might make it very large and heavy
and I presume incredibly costly.  10mm is a very short focal length and the
angle of view is really wide and we don't want it to pick up a lot of flare,
CA, distortions, and all the other bad stuff.  Canon already managed to make
a larger zoom ratio and the fastest aperture of its competitors.  The Tokina
12-24 has a constant F/4 so it is faster only at the long end, but slower at
the short end and it doesn't go as wide by a fair bit.

I am really pleased the the 10-22.  Faster would be nice, but better build
quality, dust seals, maybe IS stuff like that might be a higher priority.
AaronW - 25 Aug 2006 06:00 GMT
> Any idea on what, and when, the next EF-S lens from Canon will be
> released?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The 17-55mm f2.8 IS is probably going to be as good as it gets for the
> standard zooms.  And since telephoto EF-S lenses don't make much sense

It makes sense if it is tele for EF-S, but wide angle for EF, e.g.,
28-85. With EF, it needs retrofocus, which is more expensive and lower
quality.

I'd also like to see an EF-S prime, e.g., 28/2, without retrofocus.

And others like Nikon have tele DX lenses.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
default - 25 Aug 2006 06:18 GMT
> I'd also like to see an EF-S prime, e.g., 28/2, without retrofocus.

Yes.  This would be good.  Since the image diagonal is about 28mm for the
various EF-S mount cameras (they vary a little from 1.58 to 1.62 crop
factors), a 28mm lens makes a proper "normal" lens.  The EF 28mm F/2.8
basically fits this bill although a bit slow for a normal lens but
reasonably priced, especially used.  The EF 28mm 1.8 USM is large, heavy and
expensive.

How about an inexpensive EF-S 28mm F/2.0 or faster that is compact and
light, good quality, has a proper distance scale and depth of field
markings, and maybe without USM to save cost. Does the EF-S shorter back
focus allow for a 28mm f/1.8 to be as inexpensive as a 50mm f/1.8?  The
clear aperture size would be almost have the size at 28mm and the field of
view similar so the lens elements could be fairly small and the reduced
image circle requirements would ease design constraints also.

Perhaps there is not demand for a good normal lens anymore.  I think most
people use zooms now even with their trade-offs of aperture size, cost,
weight, and size.
G.T. - 25 Aug 2006 07:49 GMT
>>I'd also like to see an EF-S prime, e.g., 28/2, without retrofocus.
>
> Yes.  This would be good.  Since the image diagonal is about 28mm for the
> various EF-S mount cameras (they vary a little from 1.58 to 1.62 crop
> factors), a 28mm lens makes a proper "normal" lens.  

35mm is closer to normal and there's already an f/2.

Greg
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"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

w.beckley@gmail.com - 26 Aug 2006 12:20 GMT
> >>I'd also like to see an EF-S prime, e.g., 28/2, without retrofocus.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> 35mm is closer to normal and there's already an f/2.

I actually prefer 28mm to 35 as a replacement for a 50mm lens on a 1.6x
crop body. But, to the point, there's an existing 28mm 1.8 and while it
isn't great, it ain't bad either for the price, and its abberations
really only show themselves on full frame.

I think the EF-S primes they need to focus on (pardon the pun) would be
a 21mm/2.0 and a 15mm spherical 2.0. If you need anything from a 50mm
equivelant onward, you're in fine shape with existing lenses. Hell,
even for a 35mm replacement, the 20mm/2.8 could be plenty worse. But
using the existing 15mm fisheye as a 24mm replacement is less than
ideal. If they want to make EF-S primes, the wide end would be the
place to start.

But I view my 20d as a stopgap and I don't buy cropped glass. Looking
forward, I'm more looking to see them develop something like a 35mm/1.8
USM and a 24mm/2.0 USM. Those plasticy 24/2.8 and 35/2.0 lenses are too
cheap and lack USM, and the L lenses are too expensive and more than I
need. This, if you ask me, is the big gap in the Canon lineup. Those
two lenses, and a plasticy 85mm/2.0 or 2.8 would offer a complete lens
lineup, complete with Consumer, Prosumer, and Professional 24, 35, 50,
and 85mm lenses, which I view as crucial to satisfy all basic needs at
all pricepoints. In this way, I think the 50/1.2 was a good move, as it
fills the need for a weather-sealed, pro-quality 50mm prime. If you
don't need weather sealing, that extra fraction of a stop likely
doesn't sell it for you, but I imagine there's a market for this new
lens and I was glad to see it.

Will
AaronW - 27 Aug 2006 04:07 GMT
> But I view my 20d as a stopgap and I don't buy cropped glass. Looking
> forward, I'm more looking to see them develop something like a 35mm/1.8
> USM and a 24mm/2.0 USM. Those plasticy 24/2.8 and 35/2.0 lenses are too
> cheap and lack USM, and the L lenses are too expensive and more than I
> need. This, if you ask me, is the big gap in the Canon lineup.

I want a better 50/1.8.

> Those
> two lenses, and a plasticy 85mm/2.0 or 2.8 would offer a complete lens
> lineup, complete with Consumer, Prosumer, and Professional 24, 35, 50,
> and 85mm lenses, which I view as crucial to satisfy all basic needs at
> all pricepoints.

I don't want a cheaper 85/1.8.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
G.T. - 25 Aug 2006 07:46 GMT
>>Any idea on what, and when, the next EF-S lens from Canon will be
>>released?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I'd also like to see an EF-S prime, e.g., 28/2, without retrofocus.

Why?  When there are plenty of EF primes?

Greg

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"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

AaronW - 25 Aug 2006 14:57 GMT
> >>Any idea on what, and when, the next EF-S lens from Canon will be
> >>released?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Why?  When there are plenty of EF primes?

With EF, it is a wide prime with retrofocus. An EF-S can be a normal
tele without retrofocus, thus higher image quality. Without retrofocus,
as short as possible, if 28/2 is not possible, then maybe 30/2.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
Zed Pobre - 25 Aug 2006 16:17 GMT
>> Why?  When there are plenty of EF primes?
>
> With EF, it is a wide prime with retrofocus. An EF-S can be a normal
> tele without retrofocus, thus higher image quality. Without retrofocus,
> as short as possible, if 28/2 is not possible, then maybe 30/2.

Doesn't that technique generally result in vignetting from
angle-of-incidence problems?  Or have microlenses basically solved
that?

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Zed Pobre <zed@resonant.org> a.k.a. Zed Pobre <zed@debian.org>
PGP key and fingerprint available on finger; encrypted mail welcomed.

Mark - 26 Aug 2006 13:32 GMT
> Any idea on what, and when, the next EF-S lens from Canon will be
> released?

I've no idea if, not to mention when, Canon are thinking of it, but for
me the most obvious gap is a fish-eye for the crop cameras, like the
10.5mm Nikkor.  The best you can do at the moment is either the Sigma
or Peleng 8mm lenses, designed as a circular-field fish-eye for 35mm
cameras.  Neither of these quite covers the APS-C sensor (but almost).
And I don't know if it's even feasible to make a 5mm lens that would
give a 180-degree circular field on the APS-C sensor!
Just my thoughts,
Mark
Prometheus - 27 Aug 2006 07:25 GMT
>Any idea on what, and when, the next EF-S lens from Canon will be
>released?

None, only Canon and anyone they have under a NDA know, and they will
not be telling.

As a wish however (which this thread has drifted into):

Not necessarily an EF-S lens, but I would like to see a 70-300mm IS
proper USM with FTM. This would give me a focus ring that can be used,
that is wider and closer to the body instead of a narrow ring at the far
end of the lens, it will also make polarizer use easier.

Perhaps, hopefully, the withdrawn for correct a design fault current
design lens will be re-released in a mark II version with such a
feature, then again...
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Bill - 28 Aug 2006 00:02 GMT
>As a wish however (which this thread has drifted into):
>
>Not necessarily an EF-S lens, but I would like to see a 70-300mm IS
>proper USM with FTM.

I agree that's something they should have done when they redesigned that
model and improved the optics. Canon continues to disappoint in the
consumer zoom category.

Their L glass is great, but most of their consumer lenses are lacking.

This may be on purpose, to maintain two distinct ranges. But since I'm
sure they sell a lot more 17-85 than 24-70 L lenses, it would seem to me
they should have more decent consumer lenses that are more usable.

Just my opinion though...

> This would give me a focus ring that can be used,
>that is wider and closer to the body instead of a narrow ring at the far
>end of the lens, it will also make polarizer use easier.

I guess you don't like any L glass zoom lenses then, because every
single one of them has the focus ring further away [1] with the zoom
ring closer to the camera.

[1] - the older push-pull zooms combine the two rings into one.

>Perhaps, hopefully, the withdrawn for correct a design fault current
>design lens will be re-released in a mark II version with such a
>feature, then again...

Perhaps...
Bill - 28 Aug 2006 00:09 GMT
>> This would give me a focus ring that can be used,
>>that is wider and closer to the body instead of a narrow ring at the far
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>[1] - the older push-pull zooms combine the two rings into one.

I should have also mentioned that Nikon does the same with their pro
lenses. A few consumer zooms also have the focus ring out front, but
it's usually due to non-internal focus design.
Prometheus - 28 Aug 2006 10:01 GMT
>>As a wish however (which this thread has drifted into):
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>sure they sell a lot more 17-85 than 24-70 L lenses, it would seem to me
>they should have more decent consumer lenses that are more usable.

Undoubtedly, why make a lens almost as good as the L series and sell at
half the price.

>Just my opinion though...
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>single one of them has the focus ring further away [1] with the zoom
>ring closer to the camera.

It is not that it is further away, one of the rings must be, but that it
is much further away. I learned to cradle the camera in the palm of my
left hand where I would not have to alter my support much to change from
aperture to focus rings, my objection to the 70-300 IS "USM" is that the
focus is a narrow ring at the far end of the lens. I know the DO version
would resolve my problem, but at twice the price; I would much rather
purchase  either the 10-22 or EFS 60 macro with the money.

>[1] - the older push-pull zooms combine the two rings into one.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Perhaps...

Yes, I am not very hopeful. I will just have to purchase what is
available. I can not justify a 70-200 L and something longer, however
good they are.
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Ian             G8ILZ

Bill - 28 Aug 2006 11:22 GMT
>>I agree that's something they should have done when they redesigned that
>>model and improved the optics. Canon continues to disappoint in the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Undoubtedly, why make a lens almost as good as the L series and sell at
>half the price.

Who said anything about making them L quality?

They don't have to be weather sealed, they don't need to have the same
build quality, they don't need the constant aperture, and they don't
need to have IS either.

They just need to be reasonably sharp wide open with IF and ring USM to
make them fully functional.

The picky amateurs and pros can buy the L glass, and the consumers can
buy less expensive versions that are sharp but don't need to stand up to
the rigors of daily pro use.

Canon seems to think that just because it's a consumer lense, it doesn't
need to be sharp. I know that a lot of users have just the kit lense and
only print 4x6's. But even so the images are soft and I know some users
have complained that a $1000 camera has worse images than the $300 P&S
they used before - and it's sad to say they're right.

At least Nikon makes some consumer zooms that are sharp and usable.
They've also made a few dogs, but in general the consumer lenses from
Nikon are better than Canon.

>>I guess you don't like any L glass zoom lenses then, because every
>>single one of them has the focus ring further away [1] with the zoom
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>left hand where I would not have to alter my support much to change from
>aperture to focus rings,

What's the big deal? I hold my camera the same way, using my thumb and
middle finger to zoom. I use my index finger to adjust focus if needed.
Very simple and easy to do.

Since focus adjustment is just a touch of the focus ring, I don't need
broad focus control - the autofocus usually nails it first time anyway.

>Yes, I am not very hopeful. I will just have to purchase what is
>available. I can not justify a 70-200 L and something longer, however
>good they are.

The 70-200 f/4 L costs about the same as the 70-300 IS, so if you're
considering the 70-300 then you can afford the f/4. But it depends on
your needs.

The image quality alone is worth the zoom range difference. Add the
build quality, faster focus motor, and you have a killer lense - one of
the sharpest and best performing zooms you can buy.

If image quality is not your primary concern, then the 70-300 IS lense
is a good choice since it covers a bigger zoom range and the IS allows
easier handholding at the long end.
Prometheus - 28 Aug 2006 14:34 GMT
>>>I agree that's something they should have done when they redesigned that
>>>model and improved the optics. Canon continues to disappoint in the
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>They just need to be reasonably sharp wide open with IF and ring USM to
>make them fully functional.

That is what I had in mind, rather than all the other properties of pro
L glass lenses.

>>>I guess you don't like any L glass zoom lenses then, because every
>>>single one of them has the focus ring further away [1] with the zoom
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>middle finger to zoom. I use my index finger to adjust focus if needed.
>Very simple and easy to do.

I am not sure my index finger will reach far enough for some of the
lenses; I realise that a zoom will place the adjustment further away
than a prime.

>Since focus adjustment is just a touch of the focus ring, I don't need
>broad focus control - the autofocus usually nails it first time anyway.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>considering the 70-300 then you can afford the f/4. But it depends on
>your needs.

The 70-300mm (with IS) is 389.00 GBP whereas the 70-200mm f/4L USM
(without IS) is GBP 479.00; where do you get the idea that 389 is the
same as 479? It is not eve close!

>The image quality alone is worth the zoom range difference. Add the
>build quality, faster focus motor, and you have a killer lense - one of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>is a good choice since it covers a bigger zoom range and the IS allows
>easier handholding at the long end.

Image quality is important, but I can not afford the range of L glass
lens that would provide it, and I am not convinced that my usual print
size would benefit from it; besides, I can only carry so much around.
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Ian             G8ILZ

Bill - 28 Aug 2006 21:14 GMT
>>>Undoubtedly, why make a lens almost as good as the L series and sell at
>>>half the price.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>That is what I had in mind, rather than all the other properties of pro
>L glass lenses.

Ok...here's a rant about lenses.

:-)

I think every lense should be reasonably sharp wide open. I really don't
understand the sense in making a zoom lense for cameras that is not
sharp when used under perfectly normal conditions.

For instance, my old Canon 28-105 is soft wide open, but fairly good
stopped down to f/8 (far from L quality though).

But I'm sure a lot of less experienced users would slap it on their
camera and use it in P mode during the early morning or late afternoon,
the light levels may be low enough that the camera decides to leave the
aperture open to get a reasonably fast shutter speed. The result is a
bunch of soft images.

Where's the sense in that?

The same applies to some of the large aperture lenses, like an f/1.4
that is soft wide open.

Where's the sense in having a big aperture for low light when you get
soft images from it?

I know this is a little extreme, but seriously, what good is a big
aperture if you can't use it to get a sharp image?

>I am not sure my index finger will reach far enough for some of the
>lenses; I realise that a zoom will place the adjustment further away
>than a prime.

I have the 70-200 f/4 and the distance between the two rings is about
the same as the bigger f/2.8 version. I haven't had any problems
reaching the focus ring and I have average sized hands.

But you have to learn to handle the lense so it becomes comfortable and
natural.

>>The 70-200 f/4 L costs about the same as the 70-300 IS, so if you're
>>considering the 70-300 then you can afford the f/4. But it depends on
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>(without IS) is GBP 479.00; where do you get the idea that 389 is the
>same as 479? It is not eve close!

Try shopping around. The few places I've seen them, they can be had for
nearly the same price. I've seen them as close as $50 CDN.

Perhaps your market is less aggressive with L glass pricing?

>Image quality is important, but I can not afford the range of L glass
>lens that would provide it, and I am not convinced that my usual print
>size would benefit from it; besides, I can only carry so much around.

That's fine. I understand the 70-300 IS has its benefits and for many
users it's a better overall solution. At least the newer model has
improved the image quality a lot over the old models.
Prometheus - 28 Aug 2006 22:07 GMT
>>>>Undoubtedly, why make a lens almost as good as the L series and sell at
>>>>half the price.
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>Where's the sense in having a big aperture for low light when you get
>soft images from it?

Perhaps because its optimum is wide than the slower lens, unless you
want a lens that is optimised for wide open but is so poor stopped down
that you have to carry a second lens for brighter conditions?

>I know this is a little extreme, but seriously, what good is a big
>aperture if you can't use it to get a sharp image?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>the same as the bigger f/2.8 version. I haven't had any problems
>reaching the focus ring and I have average sized hands.

I was thinking of the 70-300 IS "USM" non-DO.

>But you have to learn to handle the lense so it becomes comfortable and
>natural.

I found the narrow ring at the front of the 18-55 kit lens awkward, it
is not designed to make manual focusing easy, the greater reach for the
70-300 would not be any more comfortable.

>>>The 70-200 f/4 L costs about the same as the 70-300 IS, so if you're
>>>considering the 70-300 then you can afford the f/4. But it depends on
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Perhaps your market is less aggressive with L glass pricing?

Perhaps, although I was looking at a retailer with very low prices,
looking at another retailer with good prices I find the 70-300 f/4-56 IS
"USM" for 469.99 GBP and the 70-200 f/4 L USM for 489.99 GBP giving a
difference of 20 GBP (42 CAD). Unfortunately, whilst they are only 11
GBP more expensive for the 70-200 they are 81 GBP more for the 70-300,
making them 101 more for the 70-200 than the best price I have found it
at. This is money that could go towards a macro (I  am happy with
bellows and an enlarger lens giving me 0.2-2.9x, if not as convenient),
a wide zoom (stitching?), or pacifying the lady with a treat.

Signature

Ian             G8ILZ

John A. Stovall - 28 Aug 2006 13:16 GMT
None, we hope.  

Canon has made enough little lenses for little sensors and needs to
focus on upgrading the primes below 85mm's.  The 50/1.2L was a step in
the right direction.  Now they need to produce a 21/2.8L as good as
the Zeiss Distagon and replace the current 14L with a 13-15L as good
as Leica's in that range.

These are going to be need as they move to more FF models and leave
the 1.6 for the low end cameras.
 
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