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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / September 2006

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Canon finally makes an *f4* 70-200 IS...

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Mark² - 25 Aug 2006 01:57 GMT
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082414canon70-200f4lens.asp

Smaller...Lighter...Cheaper.

I already have the 2.8 version, but many are going to jump on this one...

-Mark²

PS--  Oh, and how about a $1600 50mm f1.2 L while you're at it???
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082415canon50f12lens.asp

Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

SkipM - 24 Aug 2006 23:32 GMT
> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082414canon70-200f4lens.asp
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> PS--  Oh, and how about a $1600 50mm f1.2 L while you're at it???
> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082415canon50f12lens.asp

It's already on my wife's shopping list, she feels the extra weight of the
2.8 IS isn't worth the extra stop.
OTOH, that 50mm is on my list, one reason I've held off getting the f1.4
version.  If it is a good as it can be, that should be an awesome lens.

Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Robert R Kircher, Jr. - 25 Aug 2006 04:00 GMT
>> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082414canon70-200f4lens.asp
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> OTOH, that 50mm is on my list, one reason I've held off getting the f1.4
> version.  If it is a good as it can be, that should be an awesome lens.

Skip, educate me if you don't mind.  What exactly excites you about the
50mm?  Is it the speed?  The promise of faster focus?  The L quality?  The
DoF?  Exactly what would you use it for that make this feature important
enough to spend $1600?  I ask because other the focus speed my cheap 1.8 is
fantastic.  Image quality can be as good as my L lenses. Of course the build
sucks but the images are great.  What am I missing?

Signature

Rob
"A disturbing new study finds that studies are disturbing"

SkipM - 24 Aug 2006 23:16 GMT
>> OTOH, that 50mm is on my list, one reason I've held off getting the f1.4
>> version.  If it is a good as it can be, that should be an awesome lens.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> is fantastic.  Image quality can be as good as my L lenses. Of course the
> build sucks but the images are great.  What am I missing?

All of the above, except for focus speed.  Low light photography, build
quality, quiet focus, full time manual focus, DOF control all contribute to
the desirability of this lens.  Any one of these wouldn't be enough to get
me interested, it's the combination of all of them.  Focus speed on a 50mm
should be fast, no matter what the price.  There's not much to move.

Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

AaronW - 25 Aug 2006 04:28 GMT
> >> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082414canon70-200f4lens.asp
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> fantastic.  Image quality can be as good as my L lenses. Of course the build
> sucks but the images are great.  What am I missing?

I actually switched back to 50/1.8 from 50/1.4. I had a lot of AF
errors with 50/1.4, much more than with 50/1.8. It was not because of
shallow DoF, but significant AF errors. My theory is that because
50/1.4 is less sharp wide open, and AF is performed at wide open, it
creates more problem for the AF sensors.

I saw that the new 50/1.2 is even softer wide open than 50/1.4, from
Canon's MTF.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
Steve Wolfe - 25 Aug 2006 05:19 GMT
> I saw that the new 50/1.2 is even softer wide open than 50/1.4, from
> Canon's MTF.

 As would generally be expected from going to an even wider aperture...
it's a *lot* easier to get acceptable sharpness at "only" f/1.8 than at
f/1.2.

steve
AaronW - 27 Aug 2006 04:59 GMT
> > I saw that the new 50/1.2 is even softer wide open than 50/1.4, from
> > Canon's MTF.
>
>   As would generally be expected from going to an even wider aperture...
> it's a *lot* easier to get acceptable sharpness at "only" f/1.8 than at
> f/1.2.

E.g., 135/2 is sharper wide open than 135/2.8.

So it is because f/1.4 is too difficult, or short focal length
difficult?

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 26 Aug 2006 21:58 GMT
> I actually switched back to 50/1.8 from 50/1.4. I had a lot of AF
> errors with 50/1.4, much more than with 50/1.8. It was not because of
> shallow DoF, but significant AF errors. My theory is that because
> 50/1.4 is less sharp wide open, and AF is performed at wide open, it
> creates more problem for the AF sensors.

So you say, giving the AF sensors *more* light to work with and
*greater* knowledge if they are within the DOF at not wide open
apertures makes them worse?

Interesting.  What says that theory of yours how AF sensors work?

> I saw that the new 50/1.2 is even softer wide open than 50/1.4, from
> Canon's MTF.

Well, duh.  You have to compare on the same aperture.  Of course
the 50/1.2 may be softer wide open than a f/5.6 zoom wide open.

-Wolfgang
David Kilpatrick - 27 Aug 2006 01:30 GMT
>>I actually switched back to 50/1.8 from 50/1.4. I had a lot of AF
>>errors with 50/1.4, much more than with 50/1.8. It was not because of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Interesting.  What says that theory of yours how AF sensors work?

Actually, he's right. AF sensors have a lens, which acts in a way which
reduces the effective aperture of all lenses to f5.6 or so (same way
that most digital SLRs with porro finders and 'bright funky matte
spherical wonderful' focusing screens can't actually see anything over
f4-ish). The accuracy of most AF sensor systems is set at an aperture
which may be around f4 to f6.3 depending on exact exit pupil position,
etc, of the lens in use. This can make f1.4 lenses fail to focus
accurately enough for f1.4

David
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 28 Aug 2006 15:44 GMT
>> So you say, giving the AF sensors *more* light to work with and
>> *greater* knowledge if they are within the DOF at not wide open
>> apertures makes them worse?

>> Interesting.  What says that theory of yours how AF sensors work?

> Actually, he's right. AF sensors have a lens, which acts in a way which
> reduces the effective aperture of all lenses to f5.6 or so [rant snipped]
> The accuracy of most AF sensor systems is set at an aperture which may
> be around f4 to f6.3 depending on exact exit pupil position, etc, of
> the lens in use. This can make f1.4 lenses fail to focus accurately
> enough for f1.4

This doesn't jibe with that:

| It is reasonable to expect that an EOS DSLR can autofocus accurately
| to within ±1 unit of depth-of-focus. [...] For smaller sensors like
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
| Mark II is about three times longer than the baselength between the
| corresponding components on the EOS 10D focusing sensor.
(http://www.cps.canon-europe.com/kb/detail.jsp?faqId=1110)

Anyway, if a 50mm f/1.4 does misfocus under repeatable
circumstances, it and the camera should find their fastest way
to a canon service shot, as they do not act as they should.

-Wolfgang
David Kilpatrick - 28 Aug 2006 18:53 GMT
(interesting stuff about high end Canon horizontal central sensors using
a wider aperture sensor lens which equals a greater base length in
rangefinder terms)

In theory this should make these models better than the 10D was - and
maybe the 30D/400D sensors will be similarly improved. Still, with most
makes, there's no increased accuracy with ultra speed lenses; there's a
cut off point for any given focal length, might be f4, f2.8 or whatever.

> Anyway, if a 50mm f/1.4 does misfocus under repeatable
> circumstances, it and the camera should find their fastest way
> to a canon service shot, as they do not act as they should.

There is another issue, too with f1.4 or f1.2 lenses - it affects all
lenses to some extent, even after a couple of centuries of imaging-lens
design. Stopping down changes the focal length by a very small amount,
altering the exact point of focus. This is most noticeable with very
fast lenses. It often went unnoticed with film but digital is making us
see things we never realised were happening with lens images.

David
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 01 Sep 2006 12:38 GMT
>> Anyway, if a 50mm f/1.4 does misfocus under repeatable
>> circumstances, it and the camera should find their fastest way
>> to a canon service shot, as they do not act as they should.

> Stopping down changes the focal length by a very small amount,
> altering the exact point of focus. This is most noticeable with very
> fast lenses. It often went unnoticed with film but digital is making us
> see things we never realised were happening with lens images.

True, but if the camera knows enough about that focus change,
it _can_ compensate.  If any given camera-lens combination does
(and does correctly) is, of course, another question.

-Wolfgang
ian - 29 Aug 2006 21:50 GMT
> | The design of the 10D's AF sensor is such that all seven focusing
> | points including the centre cross-type are equally precise with EF
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> | corresponding components on the EOS 10D focusing sensor.
> (http://www.cps.canon-europe.com/kb/detail.jsp?faqId=1110)

The 20D will also gain extra accuracy from its centre cross AF sensor if a
2.8 or wider lens is fitted.
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 01 Sep 2006 12:34 GMT
>> | The design of the 10D's AF sensor is such that all seven focusing
>> | points including the centre cross-type are equally precise with EF
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> | corresponding components on the EOS 10D focusing sensor.
>> (http://www.cps.canon-europe.com/kb/detail.jsp?faqId=1110)

> The 20D will also gain extra accuracy from its centre cross AF sensor if a
> 2.8 or wider lens is fitted.

I have read it does --- and I have read it doesn't.  So I cannot
say either way.  The above source states that it's on (some of)
the EOS-1 top-of-the-line cameras, so I wouldn't wonder if it's
not on the more moderate 20D and/or 30D.
After all, they need good arguments for the price they extract.

-Wolfgang
AaronW - 29 Aug 2006 00:38 GMT
> > I actually switched back to 50/1.8 from 50/1.4. I had a lot of AF
> > errors with 50/1.4, much more than with 50/1.8. It was not because of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Interesting.  What says that theory of yours how AF sensors work?

I think 2 AF sensors spread out left and right, like 2 human eyes, look
at the focus point from 2 different angle, and try to detect the
correct focus distance, like 2 split image on MF. So for the 2 AF
sensors to work correctly, each sensor needs to get a sharp image. If
the lens is soft wide open, then it is difficult for the 2 AF sensors
to detect the phase correctly.

BTW, when people comment on some third party lenses being bad for AF,
it seems that those lenses are very soft wide open, even though stopped
down they are sharp.

> > I saw that the new 50/1.2 is even softer wide open than 50/1.4, from
> > Canon's MTF.
>
> Well, duh.  You have to compare on the same aperture.  Of course
> the 50/1.2 may be softer wide open than a f/5.6 zoom wide open.

As I showed, 135/2 is sharper wide open than 135/2.8. The new 50/1.2
can use much better material and workmanship because it is much more
expensive than the 50/1.4, and it is a new design that supposedly can
benefit from better computer aided design technology. Maybe it is just
too difficult. And any redesign of 50/1.4 or 50/1.8 can not be much
better.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
David Kilpatrick - 29 Aug 2006 01:19 GMT
>>>I actually switched back to 50/1.8 from 50/1.4. I had a lot of AF
>>>errors with 50/1.4, much more than with 50/1.8. It was not because of
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> the lens is soft wide open, then it is difficult for the 2 AF sensors
> to detect the phase correctly.

Re above - the lens used to create phase detection signals (in focus
when at maximum amplitude and coincident in phase) is in one physical
position. They can't put two sensors at different places in the focal
plane but aim them at the same point in the image. The best that can be
done is two sensors working a bit like a split-image rangefinder (top
and bottom halves) and a lens system which works like the split-image
angled prisms, in effect.

There is always an optimum aperture. If the system is going to work at
f6.3 (necessary with modern zooms) it may not be very good at f1.4. If
it was optimised for f2.8, it probably wouldn't function at f6.3. That
applies to many early AF SLRs - they work down to say f5.6, and may JUST
scrape by with 28-300mm or something similar which has an f6.3 max at
the long end. Fortunately it's also connected to focal length and actual
physical aperture, hence Minolta being able to make a 500mm f8 mirror
lens which could autofocus when a 200mm f4 fitted with a 2X converter
(also f8) won't. The 500mm f8 doughnut aperture is actually like a dim
f6.3 circular aperture and fools the system.

David
ian - 29 Aug 2006 21:59 GMT
> Re above - the lens used to create phase detection signals (in focus when
> at maximum amplitude and coincident in phase) is in one physical position.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> David

My eos 300 struggled focusing on poorly lit areas with a 700-3005.6 lens but
my eos 50E didn't.  The 50E is a great deal older.  It would therefore seem
that not all AF sensor technology trickles down to the cheaper models.  The
much younger 300 still had an inferior focusing system.  Basically if you
are already in a low light situation a maximum aperture of 5.6 doesn't help
matters.  This may be incentrive enough to buy a 2.8 or better model.  I
notice that in general 4.5/5.6 zooms are cheap kit grade, 3.5/4.5 are much
better and in a very good price/performance spot.  2.8 lenses have a hefty
price premium and double the size and weight of the lens.  You can usually
add an extra nought to the price range.  The size and weight is obvious the
result of such a wide aperture making a decent picture up to the edges
difficult.  Would it be possible to cut back a bit on weight and cost so
that the 2.8 is really only used for focusing?  Especially with the EOS
mount it could be made to never actually shoot a picture that wide.
AaronW - 25 Aug 2006 02:51 GMT
> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082414canon70-200f4lens.asp
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> PS--  Oh, and how about a $1600 50mm f1.2 L while you're at it???
> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082415canon50f12lens.asp

I wish to see a $200 50/1.8m3 with sharper wide open, and more solid
build.

And a 45-135/2.8 IS, which should be cheaper than 70-200/2.8 IS, close
to $1K instead of $2K. If it is difficult to make the short end at 45mm
without retrofocus, a little bit longer is OK, 50mm, or 55mm.

If they want to make a consumer zoom first, I'd buy a good quality
45-135/3.5-4.5 IS, too.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
Bill - 25 Aug 2006 03:12 GMT
>> PS--  Oh, and how about a $1600 50mm f1.2 L while you're at it???
>> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082415canon50f12lens.asp
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>If they want to make a consumer zoom first, I'd buy a good quality
>45-135/3.5-4.5 IS, too.

Where were you when we discussed this kind of thing before?

We already submitted the request for a 9-900mm f/1.0 IS/VR lense that's
sharp as a tack wide open and CA & distortion free for only $29.95 to
both Canon and Nikon.

They said they'd work on it...

:-)
AaronW - 25 Aug 2006 04:36 GMT
> >> PS--  Oh, and how about a $1600 50mm f1.2 L while you're at it???
> >> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082415canon50f12lens.asp
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> sharp as a tack wide open and CA & distortion free for only $29.95 to
> both Canon and Nikon.

$200 is 3 times more expensive than the current 50/1.8. And I am
willing to pay that amount to get a lens a little better. Do you think
it is too expensive, or too cheap as your $29 lens? Too expensive so
that nobody will buy it?

And an $1K 45-135/2.8 IS too expensive or too cheap? Without
retrofocus, it must be cheaper than 70-200/2.8 IS, because it is a
shorter tele.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
Bill - 25 Aug 2006 05:23 GMT
>> >I wish to see a $200 50/1.8m3 with sharper wide open, and more solid
>> >build.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>it is too expensive, or too cheap as your $29 lens? Too expensive so
>that nobody will buy it?

Umm...yeah...well I'm not sure about that...

>And an $1K 45-135/2.8 IS too expensive or too cheap? Without
>retrofocus, it must be cheaper than 70-200/2.8 IS, because it is a
>shorter tele.

Umm...yeah...Ok...I'm gonna have to go ahead and ask you to read this
very informative white paper on lense design and costs incurred during
research and development:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke

If you have trouble with it...read it several more times...

Thaaanks...and if you have any issues with my verbiage, please take a
moment to look up this important document:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0151804/

I think you have my stapler...?
Robert R Kircher, Jr. - 25 Aug 2006 03:27 GMT
> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082414canon70-200f4lens.asp
>
> Smaller...Lighter...Cheaper.
>
> I already have the 2.8 version, but many are going to jump on this one...

I'm sure you are right but I'm glad I spent the additional $400 or so for my
2.8.   It's come in real handy.

And I'm not sure I could justify a $1600 50mm even at f1.2 and L quality.
My cheapo 1.8 is super sharp and I don't need a fast focusing 50mm lens.  I
guess there are those out there who have a use for the new 50 but I don't
see it.

I would have rather seen a true fish eye for 1.6 crop.
Signature


Rob
"A disturbing new study finds that studies are disturbing"

Mark² - 25 Aug 2006 05:22 GMT
>> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082414canon70-200f4lens.asp
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I'm sure you are right but I'm glad I spent the additional $400 or so
> for my 2.8.   It's come in real handy.

Ya, I'm frankly a little surprised that it's only $400 less than the 2.8...

> And I'm not sure I could justify a $1600 50mm even at f1.2 and L
> quality. My cheapo 1.8 is super sharp and I don't need a fast
> focusing 50mm lens.  I guess there are those out there who have a use
> for the new 50 but I don't see it.

Same here...  I'm quite happy with my 50 1.4.

> I would have rather seen a true fish eye for 1.6 crop.

That might be a pretty tough feat...  ??

Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

SkipM - 24 Aug 2006 23:18 GMT
>> I'm sure you are right but I'm glad I spent the additional $400 or so
>> for my 2.8.   It's come in real handy.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> That might be a pretty tough feat...  ??

Nikon makes one for their 1.5x crop sensor, a 10.5mm, IIRC.

Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

default - 25 Aug 2006 05:43 GMT
> And I'm not sure I could justify a $1600 50mm even at f1.2 and L quality.
> My cheapo 1.8 is super sharp and I don't need a fast focusing 50mm lens.
> I guess there are those out there who have a use for the new 50 but I
> don't see it.
>
> I would have rather seen a true fish eye for 1.6 crop.

I find the 50 f/1.8 II to be very good also.  I do wish for a distance scale
and depth of field markings, but they took that out for the MkII version
unfortunately.

By true fisheye were you wanting a circular fisheye, or a full frame
diagonal fisheye?

For a fisheye on the Rebel XT, I quite enjoy my Peleng 8mm f/3.5 lens.  The
price is quite reasonable on it.  It is not quite full frame--the corners
are dark--but you can crop out any rectangle you want or clone in a bit more
sky or ground if you don't like the corners.  For the few occasions when you
want the full image circle, then the cheapest way to get full frame is buy a
used Canon EOS film camera for $100 or so and then scan the negatives after.
Manual focus is easy to achieve with the distance scale and the huge depth
of field makes up for tiny errors.
David Kilpatrick - 25 Aug 2006 12:32 GMT
> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082414canon70-200f4lens.asp
>
> Smaller...Lighter...Cheaper.
>
> I already have the 2.8 version, but many are going to jump on this one...

Canon just issued an amendment to their UK press release = correct price
£989, not £689

David
Jan Böhme - 25 Aug 2006 23:28 GMT
Mark² (lowest even number here) skrev:

> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082414canon70-200f4lens.asp
>
> Smaller...Lighter...Cheaper.

Not that much cheaper, unfortunately. It costs almost as much as the
2.8 without IS. I have long hoped for a 70-200 f4 IS, but I also hoped
for it to cost $300 or so less. After all the non-IS f4 is only about
half the price of the non-IS 2.8.

Oh well. I'm prolly going to get it anyways.

Jan Böhme
Mark² - 25 Aug 2006 23:30 GMT
> Mark² (lowest even number here) skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Oh well. I'm prolly going to get it anyways.

-Which means Canon priced it EXACTLY where they should have...for THEIR
benefit, that is...
:(  (You're still buying it!)  :)

Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

Jan Böhme - 25 Aug 2006 23:51 GMT
Mark² (lowest even number here) skrev:

> > Oh well. I'm prolly going to get it anyways.

> -Which means Canon priced it EXACTLY where they should have...for THEIR
> benefit, that is...
> :(  (You're still buying it!)  :)

Yeah, I know.  Pretty high-precision exactly, too. Bastards. And it
hurts my pride to think that I'm a) so predictable and b) have so
common preferences, that they can land on my personal pain threshold as
their pricing point.

OTOH, if they are so damn good at pricing, this means that they will
make enough money to continue developing other lenses that I want.

One has to look at the bright side of things.

Jan Böhme
AaronW - 27 Aug 2006 05:09 GMT
> Mark² (lowest even number here) skrev:
> > http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06082414canon70-200f4lens.asp
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Oh well. I'm prolly going to get it anyways.

Why not the f/2.8? Or 100-400/4.5-5.6 IS, or 70-300/4-5.6 IS?

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
burnsdavidj@yahoo.com - 28 Aug 2006 19:57 GMT
> Why not the f/2.8? Or 100-400/4.5-5.6 IS, or 70-300/4-5.6 IS?

2.8 is heavier and (slightly) more expensive.

100-400 is not as sharp, and has a push/pull design that pulls in dust.

70-300IS has a portrait problem that was never resolved, and is not
nearly as sharp as an L.

I'd personally bit the bullet and go straight for the 2.8 if I was
buying new, but different users have different needs. Currently i have
a 70-200L f/4 that i use on a tripod (without a collar!) and its
sufficient for my needs.
default - 28 Aug 2006 21:01 GMT
> 70-300IS has a portrait problem that was never resolved, and is not
> nearly as sharp as an L.

The problem was resolved.  See:
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=PgComSmModDisplayAct&keycode=21
12&fcategoryid=216&modelid=11922


Canon will inspect and repair the affected lenses for free.
burnsdavidj@yahoo.com - 28 Aug 2006 22:02 GMT
> > 70-300IS has a portrait problem that was never resolved, and is not
> > nearly as sharp as an L.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Canon will inspect and repair the affected lenses for free.

So they have -- thanks for the link. Canon waffled on this for a very
long time (6 months?) so I had given up expecting a recall. At one
point I recall Canon service had a canned response indicating that the
portrait problem was within the 'engineering tolerances for this
product'  (or something to that effect).

I checked fredmiranda and those that got the servicing are very happy
with the results, so i guess you have to seriously consider the
70-300IS again. For a non-L lense it has good IQ apparently, close
enough that my 70-200 f/4 gets needy and looking for attention. ;)
Bill - 28 Aug 2006 22:52 GMT
>I checked fredmiranda and those that got the servicing are very happy
>with the results, so i guess you have to seriously consider the
>70-300IS again. For a non-L lense it has good IQ apparently, close
>enough that my 70-200 f/4 gets needy and looking for attention. ;)

ACK! Not hardly.

I compared the 70-300 IS when it came out with my 70-200 f/4, and the
image quality, while better than the older 75-300 models, is still not
up to the L glass even when stopped down to f/8.

It's not just sharpness either, colour and contrast, and CA are better
with the f/4 as well. Not to mention the other obvious features.

But needs vary, so the 70-300 has its uses.
default - 29 Aug 2006 03:42 GMT
I have one of the 70-300 IS f/4.0-5.6USM with the affected serial number.  I
am extremely pleased with this lens anyway.  It is so much better optically
than the Sigma 70-300mm f/4-5.6 DG macro and the Canon 75-300 F/4-5.6 lenses
both of which I have used.  I'll probably send it in for repair eventually
though.  The Sigma focuses closer for more magnification (up to 0.5) and has
distance, magnification and depth of field scales on printed on it and is a
bit shorter and much less expensive.  That is the limit of the Sigma's
benefits.  The Canon 70-300 is so much sharper, especially out at 300mm and
has only the tiniest bit of CA where the sigma has plenty.  Canon's IS on
that lens is excellent too, with none of the drift that I see on the
28-135mm IS at slow shutters speeds.  The 70-300 is really convienient and
does well enough in low light.  With a monopod, it is even better.

The max aperture changes as follows:

in 1/3 stop mode:
70- 89mm  F/4.0
90-134mm  F/4.5
135-234mm  F/5.0
235-300mm  F/5.6

in 1/2 stop mode:
70-109mm  F/4.0
110-234mm  F/4.5 (why isn't it F/4.8?)
235-300mm  F/5.6

So the 70-200mm F/4L is only 2/3 stop faster at the long end or 1/3 stop
faster if you set the camera for 1/2 stops.  I'm not suggesting the 70-300
is better than the 70-200 at all though but it is very good for many people
and better than most of the other consumer grade lenses in the xx-300 or
xx-200 range

The 70-300 IS has a few things that some people won't like.  It's not dust
or weather sealed.  It doesn't have distance, depth of field, or
magnification scales printed on the lens.  It's not completely parfocal.
The front element extends (but doesn't rotate) during zooming and extends
and rotates during focussing so you have to reset your polarizer after
focussing.  Sometimes the focus hunts a bit and isn't super fast.  The focus
ring is fairly fast with manual focussing so it makes manual focus not easy.
The focus ring and lens hood rotates during autofocussing.  Canon doesn't
include the lens hood in the package and charges a lot for it although it is
a very nice good.  The 70-300 is just a bit too long to fit in most camera
bags when mounted on the camera.  The Sigma fits nicely in most.  Canon has
included a zoom lock for 70mm but if it is disengaged, the lens suffers from
serious zoom creep. You have to keep your hand on the zoom ring when
pointing up or down.

So optically it is good, but the lens is not without its faults.  I think it
is reasonable value for the money though.

> So they have -- thanks for the link. Canon waffled on this for a very
> long time (6 months?) so I had given up expecting a recall. At one
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> 70-300IS again. For a non-L lense it has good IQ apparently, close
> enough that my 70-200 f/4 gets needy and looking for attention. ;)
burnsdavidj@yahoo.com - 29 Aug 2006 14:20 GMT
> I have one of the 70-300 IS f/4.0-5.6USM with the affected serial number.  I
> am extremely pleased with this lens anyway.  It is so much better optically
> than the Sigma 70-300mm f/4-5.6 DG macro and the Canon 75-300 F/4-5.6 lenses
> both of which I have used.  I'll probably send it in for repair eventually

The 70-300f/4-5.6 is a very basic piece of glass, and every Sigma lense
I've used has disappointed me (18-50 f3.5-5.6, 18-50 f2.8, 18-125
f3.5-5.6), so this doesn't surprise me.

> So the 70-200mm F/4L is only 2/3 stop faster at the long end or 1/3 stop
> faster if you set the camera for 1/2 stops.  I'm not suggesting the 70-300
> is better than the 70-200 at all though but it is very good for many people
> and better than most of the other consumer grade lenses in the xx-300 or
> xx-200 range

I've never spent time measuring the aperature vs focal length, but you
are probably right.

The F/4L's advantage is its rugged construction, silky smooth &
lightning fast focus, and colour contrast. Its by far the best lense I
have or have ever used, and I'm considering an assortment of fast
primes (not L though) and my 17-40L.

The 70-300IS though does appeal to me since its smaller, lighter (?),
and less conspicuous. You take a white lense out of a bag, and you
attract a crowd anywhere you go... its a bit frustrating. I think it
fits the 'close enough' category for most people, and if you take more
shots then its a better solution.

> So optically it is good, but the lens is not without its faults.  I think it
> is reasonable value for the money though.

I agree completely. A 'consumer' lense that warrants continued debate
with 'L' models can only be a win for us photographers! Probably the
most important lesson I've learned in photography is that everything
involved in getting a shot is a compromise, especially relating to
gear.
Scott in Florida - 29 Aug 2006 16:34 GMT
>I have one of the 70-300 IS f/4.0-5.6USM with the affected serial number.  I
>am extremely pleased with this lens anyway.  It is so much better optically
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>28-135mm IS at slow shutters speeds.  The 70-300 is really convienient and
>does well enough in low light.  With a monopod, it is even better.

I would recommend sending your lens back.

You get essentially a NEW lens back.

They have damped the mechanism so it does not extend on its own.

Takes about two weeks total time.

I'm quite happy with mine (and was before I sent it in)

One other plus if you have a 24-105 L....they fit in the same
Canon Lens bag

An excellent duo for the 5D.

>The max aperture changes as follows:
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>> 70-300IS again. For a non-L lense it has good IQ apparently, close
>> enough that my 70-200 f/4 gets needy and looking for attention. ;)

Signature

Scott in Florida

'The Land of the Free. Thanks to the Brave'

Jan Böhme - 29 Aug 2006 00:12 GMT
default skrev:

> > 70-300IS has a portrait problem that was never resolved, and is not
> > nearly as sharp as an L.

> The problem was resolved.  See:
> http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=PgComSmModDisplayAct&keycode=21
12&fcategoryid=216&modelid=11922

However, will this lead to the lenses becoming available again? They
have been for sale nowhere in Sweden at least for the past four months.

Jan Böhme
AaronW - 29 Aug 2006 00:21 GMT
> > Why not the f/2.8? Or 100-400/4.5-5.6 IS, or 70-300/4-5.6 IS?
>
> 70-300IS has a portrait problem that was never resolved, and is not
> nearly as sharp as an L.

Photozone tested it to be pretty sharp:
http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/canon_70300_456is/index.htm
http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/canon_70200_4/index.htm

And also there is 70-300/4.5-5.6 DO IS.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
default - 29 Aug 2006 03:50 GMT
>> > Why not the f/2.8? Or 100-400/4.5-5.6 IS, or 70-300/4-5.6 IS?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/canon_70300_456is/index.htm
> http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/canon_70200_4/index.htm

The photozone tests suggest that the 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 IS USM is about as
sharp or even slightly sharper sometimes from 70-200mm and considerably
sharper at 300mm than the 70-200mm F/4 with a 1.4x TC at 280mm.  The 70-200
is probably a better lens for other reasons, but sharpness isn't one of
them.
Bill - 29 Aug 2006 05:45 GMT
>>> 70-300IS has a portrait problem that was never resolved, and is not
>>> nearly as sharp as an L.
>>
>> Photozone tested it to be pretty sharp:
>> http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/canon_70300_456is/index.htm
>> http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/canon_70200_4/index.htm

I've found that Photozone tests are not always balanced, and sometimes
they're just way off.

They don't always reflect real world experiences, for whatever reasons,
which is why I don't refer people to their tests. If you examine the
tests, they show the f/4 dropping off towards the long end, which is
backwards - it gets sharper.

And the sample images are shot wide open with the f/4, while the 300 is
stopped down to improve image quality. That makes sense if you're trying
to show the best it can do. But for comparisons, it makes the results
and data uneven.

>The photozone tests suggest that the 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 IS USM is about as
>sharp or even slightly sharper sometimes from 70-200mm and considerably
>sharper at 300mm than the 70-200mm F/4 with a 1.4x TC at 280mm.  The 70-200
>is probably a better lens for other reasons, but sharpness isn't one of
>them.

Either they had a poor sample of the 70-200 and a very good sample of
the 70-300 IS, or their tests are flawed.

I've used both, and the 70-200 is substantially sharper than the 70-300
IS when used wide open. Not a little bit, a lot sharper. All of the
70-200 units I've used are very sharp especially toward the long end. I
don't think I've ever used a sharper zoom lense in a similar range,
including Canons own f/2.8 versions (wide open).

Once you stop down to f/8 they get close, but at that point sharpness is
not where the differences reside, it's contrast and colour, and CA,
which I also noticed in the tests is not what you get in real world
results.

I've also used several Nikon lenses, and on one hand, they indicate the
18-70 performs great, while the 70-200 VR less so. And once again,
personal experience shows their test results are not accurate.

So don't always put stock into what resolution tests indicate from
Photozone. Perhaps use it as a general guide, but I wouldn't make buying
decisions based on their data and info.

YMMV...
default - 29 Aug 2006 06:15 GMT
> I've used both, and the 70-200 is substantially sharper than the 70-300
> IS when used wide open. Not a little bit, a lot sharper. All of the
> 70-200 units I've used are very sharp especially toward the long end. I
> don't think I've ever used a sharper zoom lense in a similar range,
> including Canons own f/2.8 versions (wide open).

The Canon 70-200 in either F/2.8 or F/4 have reputations as superb lenses
and I am sure that they are.  The photozone tests seem to indicate that the
70-300 is pretty much as good optically, but I agree that their tests don't
always agree with experience.  Their test of the 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 seems to
show that it is sharper than some of the L lenses at certain focal lengths
and apertures.  However sometimes he indicates a lens is good or not even
though the charts suggest otherwise.  He is quite forgiving of the EF-S
17-85 lens even though his own charts show that the 18-55 outperforms it in
many areas for example.

Do you trust Canon's MTF charts?  They seem to show that the 70-200 is
sharper on center, but the 70-300 has considerably better sharpness at the
edges at 70mm.  Unfortunately they don't have a chart for the 70-300 at
200mm for comparason.
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=150&
modelid=11922

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=150&
modelid=7345


But if we cut off the MTF charts at the edge of the digital frame for the
APS-C size sensor at 13, then the 70-200 looks like the better lens.

If we go by the Canon MTF charts though, we can see that at 18mm, the EF-S
18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 II is a bit better than the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM
which sells for about 10-14 times as much.

Clearly there is to be much more to picture quality and lens quality than
just MTF and resolving power.
Bill - 30 Aug 2006 02:37 GMT
>Do you trust Canon's MTF charts?

I usually take all test results with a grain of salt since many have
hidden agendas or personal biases that affect accuracy.

>  They seem to show that the 70-200 is
>sharper on center, but the 70-300 has considerably better sharpness at the
>edges at 70mm.

You must have misread the charts.

The thick lines are 10lpm which can be used to assess contrast, and most
lenses do fairly good to great. But if you take a look again you'll find
that the fine resolution is not that great.

The thin black line is wide open at 30lpm, which shows fine detail
resolving power or sharpness. It's only 65%, not very good at all. It
shows an odd hump beyond 15mm but that doesn't really matter.

Stopped down to f/8 (thin blue line) it improves a lot, but still not up
to the L lense.

Which reflects my experience with the 70-300 IS where it's soft wide
open and fairly sharp stopped down to f/8.

The Photozone results do not show this at all, and are suspect since
I've used two of the 70-300 IS lenses to compare.

Note that Nikon provides MTF charts for most of their lenses as well:

http://www.nikonimaging.com/global/products/lens/index.htm

From there, select the category and then the lense info. The MTF charts
are similar to Canons (different colour lines) with the exception that
they only show the MTF results for their lenses wide open (no f/8
results).

>Clearly there is to be much more to picture quality and lens quality than
>just MTF and resolving power.

Definitely...but it's a start.

By the way, I went back and read through the text of the Photozone
review of the 70-200 f/4 and they mention that their first sample was
poor and the second sample was much better. So they DID have a bad
sample for the tests - but it's not clear if the results we see are
those of the good or bad sample (both would have been nice).
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 01 Sep 2006 12:46 GMT
>>Do you trust Canon's MTF charts?

> I usually take all test results with a grain of salt since many have
> hidden agendas or personal biases that affect accuracy.

Be aware that Canon's MTF charts are computed, not measured.

-Wolfgang
default - 01 Sep 2006 16:31 GMT
> Be aware that Canon's MTF charts are computed, not measured.

I didn't know this.  I presumed that they either measured one sample, or
averaged a whole bunch of samples.
Bill - 02 Sep 2006 00:29 GMT
>>>Do you trust Canon's MTF charts?
>
>> I usually take all test results with a grain of salt since many have
>> hidden agendas or personal biases that affect accuracy.
>
>Be aware that Canon's MTF charts are computed, not measured.

Yes I am aware of their charts being calculated based on lense design,
not actual performance measurements.

I'm curious if Nikon does the same. I haven't found any info indicating
how they test.
default - 01 Sep 2006 16:29 GMT
> The thin black line is wide open at 30lpm, which shows fine detail
> resolving power or sharpness. It's only 65%, not very good at all. It
> shows an odd hump beyond 15mm but that doesn't really matter.

The "odd hump" beyond 15mm is what allows the 70-300 to be sharper than the
70-200 at that part of the frame in that condition.  The 70-200 gets softer
toward the edge while the 70-300 gets sharper.  Obviously the 70-200 is the
overall better lens, but it isn't sharper at every part of the frame both
radially and tangentally.  The 70-300 has the odd characteristic of getting
sharper when wide open toward the frame edge.  I was merely pointing out
that you can construct a test where the 70-300 will score better than the
70-200 since the 70-200 doesn't have better mtf at all positions.
Bill - 02 Sep 2006 00:29 GMT
>"Bill" <bill@c.a> wrote in message
>> The thin black line is wide open at 30lpm, which shows fine detail
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>70-200 at that part of the frame in that condition.  The 70-200 gets softer
>toward the edge while the 70-300 gets sharper.

Not in my experience it doesn't, which is why I said it doesn't really
matter.

>  Obviously the 70-200 is the
>overall better lens, but it isn't sharper at every part of the frame both
>radially and tangentally.  The 70-300 has the odd characteristic of getting
>sharper when wide open toward the frame edge.  I was merely pointing out
>that you can construct a test where the 70-300 will score better than the
>70-200 since the 70-200 doesn't have better mtf at all positions.

That's why MTF charts don't always tell the whole story. They can give
you an indication of performance, but real world evaluations are the
final determination of performance.

I've used both lenses in comparisons and the 70-300 IS was never the
equal of the 70-200 f/4, at any part of the frame or zoom range.

Granted, it was on a cropped sensor, but since both cameras were on a
cropped sensor, it doesn't matter (anything beyond about 13mm is cropped
off and ignored).

And frame uniformity is more important than a hump at the center or
border. It's the consistency or gradual change of the frame (cropped or
FF) that makes a photo look pleasingly sharp, not center or edge
performance.

If the center of the frame (FF or cropped) is sharp as a tack, and the
edges are blurred, then the photo will not appear as sharp as one that
is slightly less sharp in the center but generally equal toward the
edges.
Jan Böhme - 29 Aug 2006 00:08 GMT
AaronW skrev:

> > I have long hoped for a 70-200 f4 IS, but I also hoped
> > for it to cost $300 or so less.

> > Oh well. I'm prolly going to get it anyways.

> Why not the f/2.8?

Heavier, considerably more expensive with IS, which I consider a must.
The whole idea is to get a lens that one can carry around on the
camera. I don't shoot night basketball and the like, so I don't think I
actually will need f/2.8 enough to justify either the strain on the
pocketbook or the strain on the back.

Or 100-400/4.5-5.6 IS, or 70-300/4-5.6 IS?

I have the 100-400. That's a different animal, with quite different
uses. I use it - more often than not with Kenko's Pro teleconverter -
mainly for birding. It's not really something you stick onto the
camera, and then strap it over the shoulder, just in case anything
would turn up. I might have tested whether I could manage with the
lighter and much cheaper 70-300, if this lens already hadn't been
withdrawn for redesign when I came around to buying the 30D. (I
eventually wouldn't have, anyway: Böhme's law on focal length in
birding says: "No matter how long and/or expensive glass you put in
front of your camera, you are still always too wide".)

Jan Böhme
 
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