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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / August 2006

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Sony working on a FF?

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RichA - 23 Aug 2006 01:45 GMT
Apparently, one of the Zeiss lenses coming out for the Sony supports
FF.  Could this be Sony's pro model?  It's a long shot though.  None of
the other announced lenses appear to support it.
bmoag - 23 Aug 2006 03:32 GMT
What I really do not get is why Sony has Nikon by the short and curlies with
regard to sensor supply.
There are other vendors with products ready to go or which could be ready
with reasonable development times.
Nikon's dependence on Sony makes even less sense given that Nikon is listed
as a subsidiary of Mitsubishi on the Mitsubishi web site
http://www.mitsubishi.com/php/users/category_result_index.php?search_id=13&lang=1
as a vendor of "precision machinery."
Of course the relationships of large Japanese corporations is even more
complex and inbred than cousins in rural Arkansas.
Andrew Haley - 23 Aug 2006 10:26 GMT
> What I really do not get is why Sony has Nikon by the short and
> curlies with regard to sensor supply.

They don't.  Nikon could go elsewhere.

> There are other vendors with products ready to go or which could be ready
> with reasonable development times.

Of course.  So what, in your opionion, is the problem?

Andrew.
David Kilpatrick - 23 Aug 2006 10:24 GMT
> Apparently, one of the Zeiss lenses coming out for the Sony supports
> FF.  Could this be Sony's pro model?  It's a long shot though.  None of
> the other announced lenses appear to support it.

Two Zeiss lenses - 85mm and 135mm - are full frame. All the former
Minolta lenses being issued by Sony are full frame except three - 18-70,
18-200, and 11-18. They are reissuing the 24-105mm full frame, the 20mm,
the 16mm, 28mm, 35 1.4, 50 1.4, 50 and 100 macros, 70-200 2.8, 300 2.8
and 75-300mm (cheapie). The new Zeiss 16-80mm is APS-C only.

So far the mystery is what they are doing with:
100-300mm APO - one of the best former lenses, full frame, not yet
reintroduced
100-400mm APO - ditto
200mm f2.8
200mm f4 macro
400mm f4.5
600mm f4
24mm f2.8
28mm f2 (exceptional lens, but they are selling the quite ordinary 2.8
design)
35mm f2 (not seen for a long time, but excellent, and the 1.4 is a big
four-figure sum to buy)

But they say more lenses will be announced, which could mean revised
versions of some of these, maybe with SSM (ultrasonic) focus motors.

Even now the bulk of the lens line-up is full frame. They may say something.

David
Espen Stranger Seland - 23 Aug 2006 12:15 GMT
>Even now the bulk of the lens line-up is full frame. They may say something.

I could be, and probably is, simple as this: They allready have FF
constructions, so why make new "crop models". Especially for lenses
from 50mm and up. There are more benefits on the wide angle side when
constructing new "crop" lens designs.

-espen
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RichA - 23 Aug 2006 13:52 GMT
> >Even now the bulk of the lens line-up is full frame. They may say something.
>
> I could be, and probably is, simple as this: They allready have FF
> constructions, so why make new "crop models". Especially for lenses
> from 50mm and up. There are more benefits on the wide angle side when
> constructing new "crop" lens designs.

True, but there is a cost consideration all round.  It is cheaper to
produce lenses meant for smaller formats to the same degree of
correction as FF lenses.  I guess they'll balance off the cost of a
completely new design against the increased cost of FF lens production.
tomm42 - 23 Aug 2006 14:09 GMT
> > >Even now the bulk of the lens line-up is full frame. They may say something.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> correction as FF lenses.  I guess they'll balance off the cost of a
> completely new design against the increased cost of FF lens production.

The reason they are making a cropped format camera is that 35mm sized
sensors cost 10X of what the APS sensors cost, the electronics are more
expensive etc. So the Canon 5D is probably at the low end of what a
35mm sized sensor camera would cost. How many will they sell? Canon had
a lot of folks waiting for the 5D, Sony doesn't have that sized
following yet. The Alpha is a so-so camera, they'd have to really pull
out all the stops to sell a $3K camera. How many $1000 and $1500
cameras will they sell compared to a $3000 + camera?

Tom
Espen Stranger Seland - 23 Aug 2006 15:04 GMT
>> > >Even now the bulk of the lens line-up is full frame. They may say something.
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>sensors cost 10X of what the APS sensors cost, the electronics are more
>expensive etc.

<cut>

We know, but we're discussing lenses :-)

-espen
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tomm42 - 23 Aug 2006 17:35 GMT
> We know, but we're discussing lenses :-)
>
> -espen
> --
> http://www.seland.org/

OK, the new Zeiss lenses, BFD, I agree with ken Rockwell, they look
like generic off brand lenses, non of the nice finish they had with
Contax and Zeiss before. He also didn't feel they were any better than
the Nikon 50's in fact he felt they had an infereior build. Now to
determine if he actually has one to test.

Tom
RichA - 23 Aug 2006 17:26 GMT
> > > >Even now the bulk of the lens line-up is full frame. They may say something.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Tom

Few, but Canon seems pretty happy to be selling three bodies with
prices north of
$2500.00
Luke Bosman - 24 Aug 2006 18:15 GMT
> The reason they are making a cropped format camera is that 35mm sized
> sensors cost 10X of what the APS sensors cost, the electronics are more
> expensive etc.

I am truly intrigued by this. I had always thought that smaller
electronics tended to cost more to produce and had, therefore, assumed
that there was some other reason for the dominance of APS sensors.

One of the main obstacles to me buying a DSLR is that I love wide-angles
and know I would have to spend a small fortune to obtain the same angle
of view.

Cheers,
Luke

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Todd H. - 24 Aug 2006 19:56 GMT
> > The reason they are making a cropped format camera is that 35mm sized
> > sensors cost 10X of what the APS sensors cost, the electronics are more
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> electronics tended to cost more to produce and had, therefore, assumed
> that there was some other reason for the dominance of APS sensors.

In electronics manufacture, on the chip end, you have process cost,
wafer size, and yield that pretty much drive your costs.

On the PC Board assembly side, area is of course important, but so is
the cost of the individual chips, and the more integration you can
sensibly do to pack functionality onto fewer chips, the better off you
are.  

For a more advanced ic fabrication process (i.e. 0.18 micron vs 0.35
micron), there are more costs on one hand because all of the equipment
including reticles, steppers, polishers, and such all cost more, there
may be more process steps, you may need a higher level cleanroom in
the fab, etc.   So, in that respect smaller geometries cost you more
up front.  Every once in a while, wafers gets bigger too which also
increases how many die you can get off a process slot.

Now, where you usually make up for this, however, is that in a smaller
geometry, for a given number of transistors, you can pack a lot more
functionality onto a chip, the chip may get smaller, and your yield
goes up.   Integration of several items onto one chip can reduce costs
too down the line in system assembly because instead of having PC
board room for 3 chips, you just need one, etc.  

So while functionality for a given chip of X transistors gets cheaper
as technology marches on, relatively speaking, a given fixed chip area
actually gets more expensive over time because market pressures are
forcing megapixel wars, and that same fixed area is having to support
higher and higher levels of technology while the area doesn't get any
smaller.  

The rub with full frame sensors is that ... by definition, we're
dealing with a chip of an area of at least 24x36mm.  That has upwards
of 12million pixels on it.  And we don't want to tolerate any of em
being dead.  And that's pretty goddamned big/hard to do in the IC
realm, so yields of these behemoths aren't so great (but are
improving).  APS-C sensors are 22mm x 15mm.  38% of the area.  Much
easier to make, yields are better, less area, double whammy makes
APS-c a lot cheaper.

> One of the main obstacles to me buying a DSLR is that I love
> wide-angles and know I would have to spend a small fortune to obtain
> the same angle of view.

That is a problem indeed.  Digital mount lenses (EF-S) designed for
the cropped field of view sensors seek to address that on the cheaper
APS-C sensor sizes.

I don't think we'll see $1000 full frame dSLR camera any time soon,
for instance.   I aree with Bob Atkins though, that $2000 might be a
magic number to get more prosumers to get to full frame though:

       http://www.photo.net/oped/bobatkins/full_frame.html

--
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http://www.toddh.net/
Pete D - 26 Aug 2006 23:01 GMT
>> > The reason they are making a cropped format camera is that 35mm sized
>> > sensors cost 10X of what the APS sensors cost, the electronics are more
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> In electronics manufacture, on the chip end, you have process cost,
> wafer size, and yield that pretty much drive your costs.

Small and large is relative here, have a look at the P&S cameras, they are
small, APS-C is large, FF (?) is huge but there is only a small market
because that is the way it has sadly fallen. If they had bought out FF
consumer cameras when D-SLR's for the masses hit the streets several years
ago they would be more expensive and less of us would be using them, APS-C
is the middle ground that lets a lot of us into D-SLR's that do not need or
can't afford FF at the current pricing.
Father Kodak - 24 Aug 2006 04:38 GMT
>> Apparently, one of the Zeiss lenses coming out for the Sony supports
>> FF.  Could this be Sony's pro model?  It's a long shot though.  None of
>> the other announced lenses appear to support it.

[snip, snip, snip]

>Even now the bulk of the lens line-up is full frame. They may say something.
>
>David

David and everyone else:

How about Sony is trying to "build up a product line" and FAST!  What
would you do if you were the chief engineer at Sony/Minolta:

-Scrap all the existing designs and start over.  Of course you will
need 3-4 years to fill out the lens product line.
-Re-issue the Minolta designs with a Sony brand?  Would probably take
at least a week to do engineering drawings and at least another two
weeks to get the suppliers all lined up with the new parts with the
Sony brand.

This is an exercise for the reader.

Father Kodak
David Kilpatrick - 24 Aug 2006 13:26 GMT
>>>Apparently, one of the Zeiss lenses coming out for the Sony supports
>>>FF.  Could this be Sony's pro model?  It's a long shot though.  None of
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> weeks to get the suppliers all lined up with the new parts with the
> Sony brand.

It took them about a year working in Japan in the former Minolta optical
works. Even right at the end, launching the system, some of the photos
showed hidden Minolta labelling on lenses. They didn't have anything
except Konica Minolta labelled samples at the press launch!

David
Alan Browne - 23 Aug 2006 23:47 GMT
> Apparently, one of the Zeiss lenses coming out for the Sony supports
> FF.  Could this be Sony's pro model?  It's a long shot though.  None of
> the other announced lenses appear to support it.

This lens will work on Minolta film (full frame) cameras.

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DD - 28 Aug 2006 06:10 GMT
> Apparently, one of the Zeiss lenses coming out for the Sony supports
> FF.  Could this be Sony's pro model?  It's a long shot though.  None of
> the other announced lenses appear to support it.

Anybody who purchases any Sony product, let alone places faith in them
as a trustworthy company, is headed for a big fall.

Sony sucks and their cameras will suck too.
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David J Taylor - 29 Aug 2006 08:12 GMT
[]
> Anybody who purchases any Sony product, let alone places faith in them
> as a trustworthy company, is headed for a big fall.
>
> Sony sucks and their cameras will suck too.

What bad experience did you have, then?

David
 
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