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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / September 2006

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Help me choose my first dslr

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Padu - 14 Aug 2006 22:01 GMT
Hi,

While I'm new to the dslr market, I used to be an advanced amateur 35mm
photographer (I even had my own B&W lab). Let me tell you first what are my
restrictions/desires/hints:

- I own a Minolta Maxxum 7000 and two zoom lenses
- I don't have the money/don't want to spend more than $1000
- I intend to take family/vacation photos, with eventual artistic snapshots,
nothing professional

I've been researching for about a week and right now I'm divided between the
sony A100 and the pentax istDL. The pentax is cheap, so I can buy an
additional lens. From what I've heard, it is a possibility that I can use my
old maxxum lenses and/or buy legacy lenses for specific needs from ebay or
used market.

Nikon D200 is definitely out of my budget... don't try to convince me.

Cheers and TIA

Padu
Cameras - 14 Aug 2006 22:37 GMT
It seems that Sony is the only choice you have.

"Padu" <padu@merlotti.com> :ctCdncZUmIAneX3ZnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d@iswest.net...
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Padu
Padu - 15 Aug 2006 03:23 GMT
"Cameras"
> It seems that Sony is the only choice you have.

So, in your personal opinion which one would you choose:

-Pentax ist*DL
-Nikon D50
-Nikon D70
-Canon Rebel dXT
-Canon EOS 20D
-Sony A100

TIA

Padu
SkipM - 15 Aug 2006 04:16 GMT
> "Cameras"
>> It seems that Sony is the only choice you have.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Padu

You shouldn't rely on someone else's opinion when facing this large an
expenditure.  For instance, my personal choice would be the 20D, because it
fits my hands better than any of the other cameras you list except for the
Nikon D70, and I don't like the feel of it, either.  Plus, since I've shot
Canon SLRs for more than 20 years, I'm used to the control layout and I have
a large number of Canon lenses already on hand.  Those reasons may be
completely irrelevant to you.
The reason he suggested that the Sony was the only choice for you probably
had something to do with the thought that if you purchase any of the other
cameras you list, you will also have to buy a lens or lenses, which will
push your purchase price over the $1000 limit you mentioned.  If you go with
the Sony, your Minolta lenses will work on it.

Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Sheldon - 17 Aug 2006 04:45 GMT
>> "Cameras"
>>> It seems that Sony is the only choice you have.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> push your purchase price over the $1000 limit you mentioned.  If you go
> with the Sony, your Minolta lenses will work on it.

I would second that.  The reason I got my D70 was the fact that I already
had a lot of Nikon lenses to fit.  Even though I've upgraded those lenses
since then, I was able to use my older lenses and have a lot of fun with the
new camera without spending a lot of money on lenses.

That said, since you put the D70 on your list, that particular camera could
be a real bargain right now with the release of the D80.  All the cameras on
your list are "capable" of taking great photos.  The rest is up to you.
leivas.geo@yahoo.com - 15 Aug 2006 17:14 GMT
This is what I bought on B&H Photo in April for $947.35:

- Camera kit (body + 18-55mm)
- Zoom Telephoto EF 75-300mm f/4.0-5.6 III USM

> "Cameras"
> > It seems that Sony is the only choice you have.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Padu
Padu - 15 Aug 2006 22:40 GMT
> This is what I bought on B&H Photo in April for $947.35:
>
> - Camera kit (body + 18-55mm)
> - Zoom Telephoto EF 75-300mm f/4.0-5.6 III USM

And what type/model of camera is it?
Trying2AvoidSpam - 16 Aug 2006 01:50 GMT
Ooops... Canon Rebel XT.

> > This is what I bought on B&H Photo in April for $947.35:
> >
> > - Camera kit (body + 18-55mm)
> > - Zoom Telephoto EF 75-300mm f/4.0-5.6 III USM
>
> And what type/model of camera is it?
Trying2AvoidSpam - 16 Aug 2006 07:35 GMT
Ooops... Canon Rebel XT.
And that was before rebates (expired in Jul.15):

https://www.web-rebates.com/Canon/Main/default.asp

> > This is what I bought on B&H Photo in April for $947.35:
> >
> > - Camera kit (body + 18-55mm)
> > - Zoom Telephoto EF 75-300mm f/4.0-5.6 III USM
>
> And what type/model of camera is it?
Trying2AvoidSpam - 16 Aug 2006 16:44 GMT
Another thing you might want to consider is what cameras/lenses your
friends have. This way you can lend/borrow them... I have 2 co-workers
that own Canon cameras and have a few lenses...

> "Cameras"
> > It seems that Sony is the only choice you have.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Padu
AaronW - 19 Aug 2006 02:39 GMT
> So, in your personal opinion which one would you choose:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> -Canon EOS 20D
> -Sony A100

Canon 350D

Canon 50/1.8
Canon 85/1.8

Canon 28-135/3.5-5.6 IS
Canon 70-300/4-5.6 IS

Canon 17-55/2.8 IS
Canon 70-200/2.8 IS

Canon 1.4x
Canon 2x

Canon 135/2
Canon 300/2.8 IS

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
no_name - 20 Aug 2006 04:56 GMT
> "Cameras"
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Padu

If you can use your old Maxxum lenses Sony A100. If you can't, Pentax
*ist-DL.

Signature

These are my views. If you've got a problem with it, you can blame it on
me, but this is what I think. I am not the official spokes-person for
any Government, Commercial or Educational institution.

John

Craig M - 15 Aug 2006 04:12 GMT
Let me put 2 cents worth in here:
I just purchased my first DSLR, went and got the Nikon D50, with the 18-55
lens, and its a great camera, from what I have used of it so far, ISO goes
to 1600, the pentax goes to 3200 but I dont think you need it that high,
noise starts to come into play then, and I used to use a cannon AE-1, and a
few P & S's before the dlsr, get the one gig card, and at hi res over 250
shots, and a rechargable battery to boot, cant be beat, and under the $
1,000 limit you talked about.
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Padu
Mark² - 15 Aug 2006 06:00 GMT
> Let me put 2 cents worth in here:
> I just purchased my first DSLR, went and got the Nikon D50, with the
> 18-55 lens, and its a great camera, from what I have used of it so
> far, ISO goes to 1600, the pentax goes to 3200 but I dont think you
> need it that high

You don't think he needs it this high?
What makes you think that?

Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

Padu - 15 Aug 2006 06:17 GMT
"Mark²"
>> Let me put 2 cents worth in here:
>> I just purchased my first DSLR, went and got the Nikon D50, with the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> You don't think he needs it this high?
> What makes you think that?

I think he guessed, and guessed right. I don't usually shoot sports or
anything that requires higher speeds. Even when I was a skydiver
photographer I wouldn't go higher than ISO400 or 800. If they (35mm and
digital) are comparable, then I'll probably never go higher than 800.
Mark² - 15 Aug 2006 07:11 GMT
> "Mark²"
>>> Let me put 2 cents worth in here:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> and digital) are comparable, then I'll probably never go higher than
> 800.

High ISO isn't just for speed.
It's for low-light situations.
If you're never in low-light situations...then great!
Most people find themselves in these, and sometimes flash ruins a dark
scene.  This is where good high-ISO performance saves the day.

Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

Craig M - 15 Aug 2006 12:16 GMT
Not so much a guess, just lots of reading in this group, and what I recall
from 35mm slr film use, would almost never hear of pushing film speed that
high.
> "Mark²"
> >> Let me put 2 cents worth in here:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> photographer I wouldn't go higher than ISO400 or 800. If they (35mm and
> digital) are comparable, then I'll probably never go higher than 800.
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 23 Aug 2006 00:15 GMT
> Not so much a guess, just lots of reading in this group, and what I recall
> from 35mm slr film use, would almost never hear of pushing film speed that
> high.

You _do_ understand that there is a difference between film and
digital?  And that it changes things like cost per image and the
type and strength of noise/grain?

-Wolfgang
Craig M - 23 Aug 2006 01:29 GMT
The best I understand it, is that as you increase ISO numbers, it will
increase the sensitivity of the sensor, or CCD depends on what you want to
call it, and as you go higher numbers, it can introduce more noise, just due
to the nature of the ccd in the camera, where as film it's based on the
chemicals and other propertys of the film itself, although I never fully
understood how film speed varried I do know that it could be pushed to help
in low light, I only did it once that I can recall, and have to tell the
devloper that it was pushed, as far as DSLR goes, I am still learning, as my
first SLR was a cannon AE-1 many years ago, and it still works also, but I
had to go digital when a local photography teacher at a local high school
showed me a Pentax ist, after looking at a few, trying them out, I went with
the Nikon, and so far it's a great camera, cant wait till I can get the zoom
lens for it.

> > Not so much a guess, just lots of reading in this group, and what I recall
> > from 35mm slr film use, would almost never hear of pushing film speed that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> -Wolfgang
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 24 Aug 2006 19:27 GMT
> The best I understand it, is that as you increase ISO numbers, it will
> increase the sensitivity of the sensor,

Actually, close, but only close.

Basically, your sensor counts photons in each sensor cell by
converting[1] them to electrons.  Each cell, at the end of
exposure, will then pass the collected electrons[2] and each
charge amount will then be multiplied by a factor before run
through the A/D converter (which spits out the numbers for
the RAW format).  If you record in JPEG, further work on the
digital data is done, obviously.

Changing the ISO setting will only change the multiplier
setting (which may well be 0.05 (i.e. "divide by 20") or 30
(i.e. multiply by 30)).

The sensitivity of the sensor _as such_ is unchanged, it'll
still collect 500 photons at ISO 100 as on ISO 128.000, given
the  same brightness, aperture and exposure time.  However,
whether that represents a very dark or a very bright part of
the image is determined by the ISO setting.

The reason for the ISO setting is that the A/D converters
only have a limited number of bits (from 10 for compact
cameras to 14 or even 16 for some expensive backends).
Additionally the electron count == charge is linear (twice
as bright == double count) and absolute.

But our eye is comparative (dark vs light, not absolute values)
and, being able both to see over huge absolute ranges (LV 16+
(white/reflective in full sun) to LV -5 (half moon lit objects s
at night)) and high contrast scenes (like direkt sun and objects
in the shadow at the same time).

What you do then is dampen (or boost) all charges, so that
(hopefully) th converter will get near, but *never* over 100%
at the largest charges and (hopefully) still enough bits engaged
for nice gradual changes for the darkest parts.  As you cannot
simply convert the charge and then set the optimum gain value
(i.e. multiplier) --- that would simply use up the charge in
first place --- you have to use a preset gain value, which is
represented by the ISO setting.

Or, alternatively, you go get a D/A converter that does 17 or
18 bits with acceptable noise even at 80.000 as well as on 80
or less electrons, forget all about ISO and simply multiply
digital numnbers just right after the fact.  (Unfortunately,
no such beast seems to exist for digital cameras, especially
not for non-billionaire buyers.)

[1] Not all photons get converted: not only is no real-world
   sensor and no photon-electron converter perfect, but there
   are also unreceptive areas on the sensor.  Microlenses,
   while not without some potential problems themselves, can
   help ofset these areas, though.

[2] Possibly passing the charge through a gain multiplier for that
   specific cell (CMOS) or row or column of cells (maybe CMOS,
   certainly CCD) , to make all cells similar enough in their
   light response.

> or CCD depends on what you want to call it,

Not all sensors ave Charge Coupled Devices.  Canon's newer
DSLRs use Active Pixel Sensors of Complementary Metal Oxide
Semiconductors --- a completely different beast.  (CCDs are passive
and move charges to a possibly single read-out circuit, AP-Sensors
have an amplifier circuit for each pixel, just as one example.)

> and as you go higher numbers, it can introduce more noise,
> just due to the nature of the ccd in the camera,

Aeh, no.  The noise is already there.

For example you don't always get the identical number of photons
due to the chaotic and random nature of the universe; just like
rolling dice: if you roll a D6 1000 times you'll get a sum near
3500, but if you once ... it could be 1, it could be 6.  So even
neighbouring pixels may get different intensities; and the less
photons, the worse (even though absolute differences are less).

Additionally, the electronics also introduce noise, however,
that is not bound so much to the charge size, but more often to
the temperature.

But with ah high ISO setting --- remember you amplify not only
the (weak) signal, but the noise as well, and the signal-to-noise
ratio is worse --- and a multiplication cannot improve the ratio.

But if you don't up the gain, you'll get very dark images.
(and no, 'pushing' after the A/D conversion doesn't buy you
anything, to the contrary: the converter also adds noise, and
that hurts weak signals much worse than amplified ones.)

> where as film it's based on the
> chemicals and other propertys of the film itself, although I never fully
> understood how film speed varried I do know that it could be pushed to help
> in low light, I only did it once that I can recall, and have to tell the
> devloper that it was pushed,

You can push and pull chemical film, basically you can
develop longer and shorter.  The trade-off is worse
performance.  But since shadows and highlights act
differently to pushing and pulling (the shadows mostly don't
care, I understand), you would expose for the shadows (the
darkest parts to havet structure in them) and then later on
develop your specific image so that the highlights are just
as bright as you want them.  

That way you could force a low- or high-contrast scene to have
the contrast the film allows, and neither more or less.  (Of
course, this doesn't work for too much pulling or pushing.)

With digital equipment, you shouldn't try that: highlights
burn out unrecoverably *on exposure*.

You could try to expose so that the highlights were still
controlled and later push the darker parts of the image to show
texture.  (of course, you are limited by what your converter can
do for you, and by noise, again, and, especially when dealing
with JPEG as source materiak, you can quickly destroy graduated
changes into abrupt ones.)  Or you could try the 'contrast'
setting on your camera and see if that helps.

> the Nikon, and so far it's a great camera, cant wait till I can get the zoom
> lens for it.

There is only one zoom lens for Nikon cameras?  Are you sure?

-Wolfgang
Marc Sabatella - 24 Aug 2006 21:01 GMT
> Basically, your sensor counts photons in each sensor cell by
> converting[1] them to electrons.  Each cell, at the end of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Aeh, no.  The noise is already there.

Some of it, maybe, and your description of the process seems quite
informative, but I'm not convinced that things are exactly as you are
representing them.  Since, as you say, the ISO setting done *before* the
A/D conversion, it isn't really a "multiplier" in the literal sense.  A
literal "multiplier" would mean we already had a discrete count of
electrons that is multiplied by a discrete numeric value, which would
yield a completely predictable result, and the final image would indeed
have no no more noise than the original (although the original noise
would be more prominent, of course).  On the other hand, since the
amplification is done through analog means, it sure seems to me that
this in itself would be likely to introduce some noise of its own.  That
is, two cells that collected the exact same "number of photons" (which
is to say, I believe, "accumulated an electrical charge that to the best
of our measuring abilities is the same") might well, after
amplification, end up with measurably *different* electrical charges.
Meaning even a perfect A/D converter would calculate different values
for these two cells.  No?

---------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

Music, art,  & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 25 Aug 2006 19:51 GMT
>> Basically, your sensor counts photons in each sensor cell by
>> converting[1] them to electrons.  Each cell, at the end of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>>
>> Aeh, no.  The noise is already there.

> Some of it, maybe, and your description of the process seems quite
> informative, but I'm not convinced that things are exactly as you are
> representing them.  Since, as you say, the ISO setting done *before* the
> A/D conversion, it isn't really a "multiplier" in the literal sense.

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_multiplier
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer

I content that it is a multiplier.

> A literal "multiplier" would mean we already had a discrete count of
> electrons that is multiplied by a discrete numeric value,

You mean a *digital* multiplier.  It isn't, that's right.

> which would yield a completely predictable result,

Nope: the discrete count of electrons is not completely predictable.

And predictable != correct.  (A soccer player that
consistently misses the goal, a computer that consistenty
crashes after 20 minutes ... they are very predictable.)

Also, digital computers struggle with quantization.

> and the final image would indeed have no no more noise than the
> original (although the original noise would be more prominent, of
> course).

Again, wrong.  You'd have (at best) the same signal-to-noise ratio.
However, both the noise and the signal have been amplified.

> On the other hand, since the
> amplification is done through analog means, it sure seems to me that
> this in itself would be likely to introduce some noise of its own.

Of course it does!

But it still gives you less noise that way, assuming correct
exposure.  Try it out: shoot the same scene in RAW at ISO 1600, lock
aperture and exposure time and switch to ISO 100, then
multiply the values in your RAW-converter.

> That is, two cells that collected the exact same "number of photons"  
> (which is to say, I believe, "accumulated an electrical charge that  
> to the best of our measuring abilities is the same") might well,      
> after amplification, end up with measurably *different* electrical    
> charges.                                                              

Ah, but they won't collect the same number of photons.  There's
noise even in the *nature* of photons being sent out or reflected.
While they even out over a large number of photons, we often deal
with small numbers here.

Additionally, 2 cells collecting the same number of photons, if
they could, would not necessarily have the same charge collected:
the sensor is not noise free either.

> Meaning even a perfect A/D converter would calculate different values
> for these two cells.  No?

Obviously.
But will it have any impact on the picture?

That depends: is it in the bright or dark parts of the image,
does the A/D-converter produce tons of linear steps (to be reduced
later into 256 gamma-based steps) or only a few hundred, where
they may even have to be expanded in the shadows, do other noise
sources hide the additional noise, ...

-Wolfgang
Marc Sabatella - 25 Aug 2006 22:11 GMT
>> Since, as you say, the ISO setting done *before* the
>> A/D conversion, it isn't really a "multiplier" in the literal sense.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I content that it is a multiplier.

OK, I will grant that the term *is* used in this manner.  But then, we
must realize that even though it can legitimately be called a
"multiplier", it doesn't necessarily *act* like what one would normally
otherwise consider a mutliplier (ie, a digital multiplier).  In
particular, one cannot assume it will not introduce noise of its own.

>> which would yield a completely predictable result,
>
> Nope: the discrete count of electrons is not completely predictable.

I never said it was.  I was talking about the multiplication of two
known discrete values - that is, *after* the unpredictable A/D
conversion.

> And predictable != correct.  (A soccer player that
> consistently misses the goal, a computer that consistenty
> crashes after 20 minutes ... they are very predictable.)

True.  But integer multplication is so trivially simple to implement, it
seems not owrth making this distinction.  Multiplication of two integer
quantities *will* yield correct answers.

>> and the final image would indeed have no no more noise than the
>> original (although the original noise would be more prominent, of
>> course).
>
> Again, wrong.  You'd have (at best) the same signal-to-noise ratio.
> However, both the noise and the signal have been amplified.

And hence, more prominent in the sense I meant.  Not necessarily
"compared to the amplified signal", but "compared to the unamplified
noise".

>> On the other hand, since the
>> amplification is done through analog means, it sure seems to me that
>> this in itself would be likely to introduce some noise of its own.
>
> Of course it does!

Right, and it sure seemed to me that the point of your previous post was
to *deny* this.  If not, then I think your actual point was lost...

> Ah, but they won't collect the same number of photons.  There's
> noise even in the *nature* of photons being sent out or reflected.

True enough.  Noise comes form many places.

>> Meaning even a perfect A/D converter would calculate different values
>> for these two cells.  No?
>
> Obviously.
> But will it have any impact on the picture?

I don't know, to be honest.  It seems *all* of these things are likely
to contribute to the visible noise.

---------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

Music, art,  & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 28 Aug 2006 13:54 GMT
>>> Since, as you say, the ISO setting done *before* the
>>> A/D conversion, it isn't really a "multiplier" in the literal sense.

>>    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_multiplier
>>    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer

>> I content that it is a multiplier.

> OK, I will grant that the term *is* used in this manner.

Ok.

> But then, we must realize that even though it can legitimately
> be called a "multiplier", it doesn't necessarily *act* like what
> one would normally otherwise consider a mutliplier (ie, a digital
> multiplier).

It does act like one within it's limits and disregarding a
digital multiplier's limits.

> In particular, one cannot assume it will not introduce noise of its
> own.

A digital multiplier will also introduce noise: it has only so
many bits.  Any input number not representable by these must be
rounded; any output number not representable by these will be wrong
(and if we are lucky, we do get an error or overflow flag set).

>>> which would yield a completely predictable result,

>> Nope: the discrete count of electrons is not completely predictable.

> I never said it was.  I was talking about the multiplication of two
> known discrete values -

Once you turn to discrete (and _wrong_) values (they have to be
rounded ...), you should get predictable outcomes.

However, predictable does not indicate correct.

> that is, *after* the unpredictable A/D conversion.

The conversion is predictable, as the noise itself ist
statistically predictable.  You simply will have to allow for
a known margin of error due to noise.

>> And predictable != correct.  (A soccer player that
>> consistently misses the goal, a computer that consistenty
>> crashes after 20 minutes ... they are very predictable.)

> True.  But integer multplication is so trivially simple to implement, it
> seems not owrth making this distinction.  Multiplication of two integer
> quantities *will* yield correct answers.

Please calculate 4000 x 5 with 12 bits.
        4000 is 1111 1010 0000
           5 is            101
The result    is 1110 0010 0000
which evaluates to 3616.

Oops.  Wrong answer: Overflow.

Worse, we are not necessarily multiplying be integers, nor
necessarily by numbers >= 1.

>>> and the final image would indeed have no no more noise than the
>>> original (although the original noise would be more prominent, of
>>> course).

>> Again, wrong.  You'd have (at best) the same signal-to-noise ratio.
>> However, both the noise and the signal have been amplified.

> And hence, more prominent in the sense I meant.  Not necessarily
> "compared to the amplified signal", but "compared to the unamplified
> noise".

And in what sense would that measurement be of any value?

>>> On the other hand, since the
>>> amplification is done through analog means, it sure seems to me that
>>> this in itself would be likely to introduce some noise of its own.

>> Of course it does!

> Right, and it sure seemed to me that the point of your previous post was
> to *deny* this.  If not, then I think your actual point was lost...

Driving the A/D converter to use it's maximal range yields
less noise than not doing so and relying on 'digital'
multiplication later on.

>>> Meaning even a perfect A/D converter would calculate different values
>>> for these two cells.  No?

>> Obviously.
>> But will it have any impact on the picture?

> I don't know, to be honest.  It seems *all* of these things are likely
> to contribute to the visible noise.

But which one is the main factor/are the main factors?

Go ahead, shoot a scene at ISO 1600 and with the same aperture
and exposure at ISO 100 and digitally push the image later.

-Wolfgang
Marc Sabatella - 28 Aug 2006 21:56 GMT
>> In particular, one cannot assume it will not introduce noise of its
>> own.
>
> A digital multiplier will also introduce noise: it has only so
> many bits.

In theory, but one can simply make sure you design the thing with enough
bits to handle the range of inputs it will actually be given.
Presumably the output range of the A/D converter on the sensor is a
known quantity, as is the range of ISO settings handled.

>> that is, *after* the unpredictable A/D conversion.
>
> The conversion is predictable, as the noise itself ist
> statistically predictable.  You simply will have to allow for
> a known margin of error due to noise.

OK, I guess that does technically count as "predictable" when looking at
the big pictures.  I was talking about individual pixels on a single
shot, though

>> And hence, more prominent in the sense I meant.  Not necessarily
>> "compared to the amplified signal", but "compared to the unamplified
>> noise".
>
> And in what sense would that measurement be of any value?

It can influence one's *perception* of noise.  That is, you might not
notice the noise in a severely underexposed picture, but push it to the
point where the values are closer to, say, 18% gray, and you're more
likely to notice the noise.  At least, that's been *my* experience.

> Driving the A/D converter to use it's maximal range yields
> less noise than not doing so and relying on 'digital'
> multiplication later on.

Absolutely; I agree with this.  But I think the *reasons* for this are
slightly different than presented.  I'd make the case by appealing to an
extreme example.  Say you've underexposed so severely that you never
have a chance to collect more than 1 photon per site.  Your sensor could
do this perfectly, and have a perfect A/D conversion to yield "0" or "1"
as the value of each pixel prior to de-mosaicing.  You could apply
absolutely perfect digital multiplication to push this up into the
maximum dynamic range supported by the RAW file.  The resulting image
would *still* look terrible.  The issue isn't that the digital
multiplication added noise, the issue is that it was given
information-starved data to work with.

---------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

Music, art,  & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 31 Aug 2006 22:50 GMT
>>> In particular, one cannot assume it will not introduce noise of its
>>> own.

>> A digital multiplier will also introduce noise: it has only so
>> many bits.

> In theory, but one can simply make sure you design the thing with enough
> bits to handle the range of inputs it will actually be given.
> Presumably the output range of the A/D converter on the sensor is a
> known quantity, as is the range of ISO settings handled.

>>> that is, *after* the unpredictable A/D conversion.

>> The conversion is predictable, as the noise itself ist
>> statistically predictable.  You simply will have to allow for
>> a known margin of error due to noise.

> OK, I guess that does technically count as "predictable" when looking at
> the big pictures.  I was talking about individual pixels on a single
> shot, though

Since the sensor is "unpredictable", looking for 100%
predictability is locking the barn after the horses got out.

>>> And hence, more prominent in the sense I meant.  Not necessarily
>>> "compared to the amplified signal", but "compared to the unamplified
>>> noise".

>> And in what sense would that measurement be of any value?

> It can influence one's *perception* of noise.  That is, you might not
> notice the noise in a severely underexposed picture,

"Well, there may be no noise visible, but, aesthetically,
black on black images have been ... outré for years."

> but push it to the
> point where the values are closer to, say, 18% gray, and you're more
> likely to notice the noise.  At least, that's been *my* experience.

You're also likely to actually *see* what's in the picture.

>> Driving the A/D converter to use it's maximal range yields
>> less noise than not doing so and relying on 'digital'
>> multiplication later on.

> Absolutely; I agree with this.  But I think the *reasons* for this are
> slightly different than presented.  I'd make the case by appealing to an
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> absolutely perfect digital multiplication to push this up into the
> maximum dynamic range supported by the RAW file.

OK, make the counter-experiment:
Your sensor and A/D-converter are again perfect, but the
booster introduces 1% noise.  Since you get 0000 0000 0000
+- noise and 1111 1111 1111 +- noise, it`s trivial to remove the
noise.  And it would be possible even up to noise up to half
the converter range.

> The resulting image
> would *still* look terrible.  The issue isn't that the digital
> multiplication added noise, the issue is that it was given
> information-starved data to work with.

In that special case, the problem isn't noise.  We have to
look at the real world, with non-perfect sensors and
non-perfect A/D-converters.

But for that, look at
   http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/night.and.low.light.photography/index.html
for really low-light conditions.

-Wolfgang
Marc Sabatella - 25 Aug 2006 22:21 GMT
>> Since, as you say, the ISO setting done *before* the
>> A/D conversion, it isn't really a "multiplier" in the literal sense.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I content that it is a multiplier.

OK, I will grant that the term *is* used in this manner.  But then, we
must realize that even though it can legitimately be called a
"multiplier", it doesn't necessarily *act* like what one would normally
otherwise consider a mutliplier (ie, a digital multiplier).  In
particular, one cannot assume it will not introduce noise of its own.

>> which would yield a completely predictable result,
>
> Nope: the discrete count of electrons is not completely predictable.

I never said it was.  I was talking about the multiplication of two
known discrete values - that is, *after* the unpredictable A/D
conversion.

> And predictable != correct.  (A soccer player that
> consistently misses the goal, a computer that consistenty
> crashes after 20 minutes ... they are very predictable.)

True.  But integer multplication is so trivially simple to implement, it
seems not owrth making this distinction.  Multiplication of two integer
quantities *will* yield correct answers.

>> and the final image would indeed have no no more noise than the
>> original (although the original noise would be more prominent, of
>> course).
>
> Again, wrong.  You'd have (at best) the same signal-to-noise ratio.
> However, both the noise and the signal have been amplified.

And hence, more prominent in the sense I meant.  Not necessarily
"compared to the amplified signal", but "compared to the unamplified
noise".

>> On the other hand, since the
>> amplification is done through analog means, it sure seems to me that
>> this in itself would be likely to introduce some noise of its own.
>
> Of course it does!

Right, and it sure seemed to me that the point of your previous post was
to *deny* this.  If not, then I think your actual point was lost.

> Ah, but they won't collect the same number of photons.  There's
> noise even in the *nature* of photons being sent out or reflected.

True enough.  Noise comes form many places.

>> Meaning even a perfect A/D converter would calculate different values
>> for these two cells.  No?
>
> Obviously.
> But will it have any impact on the picture?

I don't know, to be honest.  It seems *all* of these things are likely
to contribute to the visible noise.

---------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

Music, art,  & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Craig M - 24 Aug 2006 23:33 GMT
Whew, that was a post, did you swallow a camera manual :)
> There is only one zoom lens for Nikon cameras?  Are you sure?
  no there is several, I was thinking of one zoom, the AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor
55-200mm zoom, or maybe the AF Zoom Nikkor 28-200mm, will have to see if the
last one will work on the D-50 since it does not have the DX on it.

> > The best I understand it, is that as you increase ISO numbers, it will
> > increase the sensitivity of the sensor,
[quoted text clipped - 127 lines]
>
> -Wolfgang
Craig M - 15 Aug 2006 12:14 GMT
Was thinking of how grainy it comes out, or may come out.
> > Let me put 2 cents worth in here:
> > I just purchased my first DSLR, went and got the Nikon D50, with the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> You don't think he needs it this high?
> What makes you think that?
SkipM - 15 Aug 2006 23:55 GMT
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
> Was thinking of how grainy it comes out, or may come out.

The only flaw in that thinking is that ISO 1600 film pushed to 3200 (one
stop) was far more grainy than a Canon 20D at 3200, in fact, ISO1600 film
was more grainy than the 20D at 3200.  So people are more willing to go the
extra stop in film speed than they were with film.  I'd never shoot with
film faster than 400 unless I absolutely saw no way around it, including
shooting at another time.  Now, shooting at 800 or 1600 is not a big deal.

Signature

Skip Middleton

Craig M - 16 Aug 2006 00:04 GMT
Well I have used some B&W film that was 3200 iso or asa back then, for low
level night shooting, I dont recall how it came out back then, but I want to
think it was alright, it was for night photography without flash back then,
I have not had a chance to use the D50 in low light and set the iso to max
to see, but I am sure I will, and I think that 1600 is plenty, the pentax I
was looking at can go to 3200 but I think the Nikon is a better body and
lens system, this from reading and asking arround here and there, and seeing
so many out there, so far I love my D50, I have so missed slr cameras, the
D50 has brought it back to me.
> www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
> > Was thinking of how grainy it comes out, or may come out.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> film faster than 400 unless I absolutely saw no way around it, including
> shooting at another time.  Now, shooting at 800 or 1600 is not a big deal.
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 23 Aug 2006 00:32 GMT
> to see, but I am sure I will, and I think that 1600 is plenty, the pentax I

And I think that ISO 1600 is plenty, unless you need more.

Like shooting with f3.2, 1/80s, 200mm handheld (with IS) because
you're indoors, it's darkish and you prefer not to use flash.
Then you are glad that you have ISO3200, and wouldn't mind
ISO 6400 or ISO 12800, if the noise is bearable.

-Wolfgang
cjcampbell - 23 Aug 2006 02:29 GMT
> > to see, but I am sure I will, and I think that 1600 is plenty, the pentax I
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Then you are glad that you have ISO3200, and wouldn't mind
> ISO 6400 or ISO 12800, if the noise is bearable.

Why, sure, if you like bad pictures with dark shadows. Then who cares
about the noise?

Rule #1 in photography: If the light is bad, don't take the picture.

and rule #2 is like unto it: If you took the picture anyway, don't show
it to anybody.

Every photo I have ever seen where somebody insisted that he needed
more than ISO 400 was, in a word, terrible. Okay, there are some
exceptions with grainy ISO 1000 black and white film -- they are only
half terrible.
Craig M - 23 Aug 2006 11:57 GMT
I have used ISO 800 film and it came out great, so there are exceptions to
every rule there, and I am still in learning mode with my DSLR, having fun
as well, wife may be getting tired of my surprise snaps of her some times,
catching her comming down the hall, but its a way to try out different
setting, ISO, shutter speed, F-stops, flash or no flash...ect..

> > > to see, but I am sure I will, and I think that 1600 is plenty, the pentax I
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> exceptions with grainy ISO 1000 black and white film -- they are only
> half terrible.
VK - 23 Aug 2006 16:11 GMT
> Every photo I have ever seen where somebody insisted that he needed
> more than ISO 400 was, in a word, terrible.

http://www.photosafariindia.com/articles/Img/gen1-tiger/tiger04.jpg

ISO 3200.  

Shooting in good light isnt always an option.

Vandit
Marc Sabatella - 23 Aug 2006 16:55 GMT
> Every photo I have ever seen where somebody insisted that he needed
> more than ISO 400 was, in a word, terrible.

Either you haven't seen many pictures, or you just have a very unusual
sense of what makes a good picture.  It is subjective after all, so
that's OK.  But you should realize that many people actually *enjoy*
pictures, say, of musicians in concert - something I shoot regularly
that pretty can't be done as successfully with ISO 400 as with 800 or
1600, even with fast lenses.  Tripods and IS won't keep the subject
still...

---------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

Music, art,  & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
http://www.outsideshore.com/
cjcampbell - 24 Aug 2006 01:26 GMT
> > Every photo I have ever seen where somebody insisted that he needed
> > more than ISO 400 was, in a word, terrible.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> 1600, even with fast lenses.  Tripods and IS won't keep the subject
> still...

You are probably right. I can't stand pictures of musicians in concert
-- it is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of when I wrote what
I did.

Well, art is in the eye of the beholder.
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 24 Aug 2006 19:45 GMT
> You are probably right. I can't stand pictures of musicians in concert
> -- it is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of when I wrote what
> I did.

What sort of 'concert musician pictures' can't you stand, and why?

Did you ever try shooting animal life, especially nocturnal beasts?

> Well, art is in the eye of the beholder.

-Wolfgang

Signature

"It is not easy to become beautiful. It requires hard work, patience, and
attention to detail. It also takes a certain firmness of purpose. Beauty
is in the eye of the beholder, and it may be necessary from time to time
to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye." -Miss Piggy

cjcampbell - 25 Aug 2006 02:07 GMT
> > You are probably right. I can't stand pictures of musicians in concert
> > -- it is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of when I wrote what
> > I did.
>
> What sort of 'concert musician pictures' can't you stand, and why?

Almost any kind. Such pictures look too static to me. A picture of an
orchestra is usually uninteresting, unless you get close enough to
emphasize a single individual or very small group.

Anything outside of classical music simply does not interest me and I
find some of the performers revolting in their appearance.

I have a few pictures of choral groups taken in a darkened auditorium
and I never had to go above ISO 400 to get them.

> Did you ever try shooting animal life, especially nocturnal beasts?

Actually, yes. But I still have never had to go above ISO 400. The big
problem I have always had with animal life is getting close enough. I
am terrible at stalking the critters.

I figure that if I ever get around to photographing the bats around
here I will have to use flash anyway, and probably a wireless shutter
trip, too.

> > Well, art is in the eye of the beholder.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> is in the eye of the beholder, and it may be necessary from time to time
> to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye." -Miss Piggy

Well, I have had plenty of black eyes in my day, but they have never
made me any smarter or better informed.
Marc Sabatella - 25 Aug 2006 05:09 GMT
> Almost any kind. Such pictures look too static to me. A picture of an
> orchestra is usually uninteresting, unless you get close enough to
> emphasize a single individual or very small group.

And, assuming that getting close enough means using a telephote lens as
opposed to physically getting to the front row or being on stage, this
is precisely the sort of thing that can require higher ISO.

> Anything outside of classical music simply does not interest me

OK, that's your right, but since apparently it *would* be interesting if
it were classical music, this suggests even you would agree that such
pictures *can* indeed be worth taking.

Here's an ISO 1600 picture you might not find too revolting - a
classical violinst named Chris Luther:

http://www.outsideshore.com/marc/photo/music/images/image/MJS_060428_0859.JPG

This was in a fairly well-lit recital hall, and it still took ISO 1600
shooting wide open for the lens I was using to get me a shutter speed of
1 / focal-length, the usual standard for handheld shots (tripods are not
normally an option in this type of situation).  Given the unusually good
lighting, I could perhaps have gotten away with ISO 800 had I had either
a faster lens or image stabilization.  However, had the lights been more
typical concert lighting, then I'd have been struggling at 1600 even
with a faster lens and stabilization, and indeed, even with a tripod.  I
don't care how steady that camera sensor is, a shutter speed of below
1/60 is likely to produce subjct motion blur when dealing with
performing musicians.  But I'd claim the picture would still have been
worth taking, even though there would have been little detail in the
black shirt, and the background would have gone darker.  I have many
examples of such pictures, including ones that are far less "static"
than this one, but they aren't classical music, so I wouldn't want to
revolt you by posting links.  But for many of us, it is still worth it
for the detail that *is* present in the lit areas.

I find it ironic, BTW, that photographers in general seem so concerned
with shadow detail.  One of the first things you learn in painting is to
*avoid* placing too much detail in the shadows, as that kills the sense
of light.  Photographers go to great lengths with fill lights and
reflectors and so forth to get a relatively evenly lit portrait, yet
paintings will typically go to equally great lengths to create and
exaggerate a more dramatic "chiaroscuro" type of lighting.

---------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

Music, art,  & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
http://www.outsideshore.com/
cjcampbell - 25 Aug 2006 06:35 GMT
> > Almost any kind. Such pictures look too static to me. A picture of an
> > orchestra is usually uninteresting, unless you get close enough to
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> revolt you by posting links.  But for many of us, it is still worth it
> for the detail that *is* present in the lit areas.

Thanks. :-)

> I find it ironic, BTW, that photographers in general seem so concerned
> with shadow detail.  One of the first things you learn in painting is to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> paintings will typically go to equally great lengths to create and
> exaggerate a more dramatic "chiaroscuro" type of lighting.

I have to agree with you there. This picture has very little in the way
of shadow detail. It was taken at ISO 100, I believe.

http://www.treklens.com/gallery/Asia/Philippines/photo175007.htm
Craig M - 25 Aug 2006 11:38 GMT
I think the lighting you refer to is because painting is a rendering of what
the artist sees, and a photograph is what the camera sees, and cameras
reproduce what they see with no bias at all, artist with a brush can bias
the painting, the camera can show detail in shadow, the brush, well, its in
the hands of the artist.

> > I find it ironic, BTW, that photographers in general seem so concerned
> > with shadow detail.  One of the first things you learn in painting is to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > paintings will typically go to equally great lengths to create and
> > exaggerate a more dramatic "chiaroscuro" type of lighting.

> > > Almost any kind. Such pictures look too static to me. A picture of an
> > > orchestra is usually uninteresting, unless you get close enough to
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> > Here's an ISO 1600 picture you might not find too revolting - a
> > classical violinst named Chris Luther:

http://www.outsideshore.com/marc/photo/music/images/image/MJS_060428_0859.JPG

> > This was in a fairly well-lit recital hall, and it still took ISO 1600
> > shooting wide open for the lens I was using to get me a shutter speed of
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> http://www.treklens.com/gallery/Asia/Philippines/photo175007.htm
Marc Sabatella - 25 Aug 2006 17:25 GMT
>> I find it ironic, BTW, that photographers in general seem so
>> concerned
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> http://www.treklens.com/gallery/Asia/Philippines/photo175007.htm

Great shot.  But according to the EXIF data, it was ISO 400.  I checked,
because I thought it looked far too noisy/grainy to have been 100.  I'm
still surprised it was only 400- was that the result of underexposing
the picture and then pushing it in photoshop?   Or did you add noise in
postprocessing to simulate film?

Anyhow, if there *was* enough light to get a decent exposure at f/5.0 at
1/60 with ISO 400 as the EXIF data reports, then the light in this scene
was far better than most concert or night scene photography, and yet the
"chiaroscuro" effect is about the same.  Meaning, if this shot works,
then so potentially do any number of concert/night shots.

Indeed, many more "vanilla" indoor shots are not this well lit.
Consider, for example, this:

http://www.outsideshore.com/marc/photo/people/images/image/MJS_051218_0542.JPG

Although the EXIF data is incomplete because I was using an old manual
lens, I know it would have been shot at f/2.8 or wider, or I wouldn't
have been using such a lens (and actually, based on the appearance of
the photo and my recollection of the event, I'm thinking it was a
135/2.8 wide open).  Regardless of what anyone else might think about
the aesthetic quality of this particular photo, the moment captured has
significant value to the people involved (it was a surprise retirement
party that ended up also being a family reunion), and they'd certainly
agree this picture was worth having taken.  Yet even shooting at f/2.8
at ISO 1600, that was still only enough light for a 1/60 second
exposure.  It's not an especially oddly lit scene - indeed, it's pretty
uniform lighting that still shows reasonable shadow detail, so shots
taken in this environment have a chance of coming out technically
acceptable, even by the odd (to me) shadow-detail-loving standards of
professional photographers.  And yet, without ISO 1600, shots like this
would not have happened at that event.

Another point worth mentioning is that your shot was taken at 18mm.
Obviously, you were standing pretty close to the woman depicted.  That's
not always such a great idea in taking candid shots (such as mine
above).  Candids make another broad category of pictures in which, due
to the desire to avoid subject movement and the relatively long focal
lengths that are typically involved, ISO 1600 is extremely useful even
in sitatuons where the light isn't *that* bad.

---------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

Music, art,  & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
http://www.outsideshore.com/
cjcampbell - 26 Aug 2006 03:38 GMT
> >> I find it ironic, BTW, that photographers in general seem so
> >> concerned
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> the picture and then pushing it in photoshop?   Or did you add noise in
> postprocessing to simulate film?

Neither. The photo is a small crop badly oversharpened to compensate. I
will have to be more careful with that. Anyway, so much for relying on
an aging memory for the data on the film.

> Anyhow, if there *was* enough light to get a decent exposure at f/5.0 at
> 1/60 with ISO 400 as the EXIF data reports, then the light in this scene
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> professional photographers.  And yet, without ISO 1600, shots like this
> would not have happened at that event.

Well, and there you have it. Not every photo is necessarily a work of
fine art, nor should it be. Such a memory is, in the long run, worth
many artistic awards.

However much we may disagree on whether ISO 1600 was really needed, the
photograph was needed.

> Another point worth mentioning is that your shot was taken at 18mm.
> Obviously, you were standing pretty close to the woman depicted.  That's
> not always such a great idea in taking candid shots (such as mine
> above).

You are right. But the picture is not a candid and was not intended to
be such a close-up portrait. The frame actually shows the entire person
and her wares, but in th end I thought this crop was more interesting.
That is the reason for the low technical quality. If I had it do over
again I would have used a longer lens (I was using the 18-200mm VR,
after all) and done the crop in-camera. It would have resulted in a
technically much better picture. The thing that irritates me is that I
did not see this picture when I was there.
Marc Sabatella - 26 Aug 2006 17:18 GMT
> Neither. The photo is a small crop badly oversharpened to compensate.

Ah.  The small crop would explain why it also didn't really look like
the sort of perspective I'd expect with a wide angle lens from that
apparent distance.  Had I wanted to take the same shot - from the same
vantage point to get the same perspective, and framed the way you have
it - I'd have used a telephoto lens.  And then I may well have needed
higher ISO to get a fast enough shutter speed to overcome camera shake.

> I
> will have to be more careful with that.

Maybe so, but it's not a bad look, in my opinion.  But then, I'm
accusomed to shooting at ISO 1600...

---------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

Music, art,  & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 25 Aug 2006 20:22 GMT
> I find it ironic, BTW, that photographers in general seem so concerned
> with shadow detail.  One of the first things you learn in painting is to
> *avoid* placing too much detail in the shadows, as that kills the sense
> of light.

Ah, but that's a different thing.
You don't *place* detail in the shadow, you _keep_ detail in the
shadows.  Also, the painter will leave the brush markings even
in the dark parts, the texture of whatever he paints on will be
there, etc.

With photography, you have the choice between "Black as the inside
of a bear" or "dark, but textured (unless whatever you shoot _has_
no texture to resolve)".

The eye is very adapt even over huge contrast ranges; the painter
can simply paint with 4 or 5 stops of luminosity, no matter if
the real thing has only 2 or 12+ stops.  He can create local
contrasts to increase the visual perception of dark and bright.
The photographer must either play with graduated filters ---
not always possible with irregular shapes! --- or use reflectors,
flash, or HDI, etc. to reduce the absolute differences.

A photographer can later stretch or compress the contrast ---
within limits --- by pushing or pulling, burning and dodging,
or using differently graduated paper.  But he's limited to the
few stops the photographic paper can record and display, and to
how many stops his film/sensor can record with usable accuracy
and noise behaviour.  Actually, doing this right is part of the
Zone System.

   http://images.google.de/images?q=Ansel+Adams
should give you an idea that strong contrasts are often wanted,
but areas without texture (and that means detail, specifically
shadow detail) are _not_.

> Photographers go to great lengths with fill lights and
> reflectors and so forth to get a relatively evenly lit portrait, yet
> paintings will typically go to equally great lengths to create and
> exaggerate a more dramatic "chiaroscuro" type of lighting.

Both have their place, and there are quite a few very high
contrast low key portraits.

-Wolfgang
Marc Sabatella - 25 Aug 2006 22:12 GMT
>> I find it ironic, BTW, that photographers in general seem so
>> concerned
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> You don't *place* detail in the shadow, you _keep_ detail in the
> shadows.

Last I checked, the canvas started out blank white, and a piece of film
or a digital sensor starts out with no image represented.  Any detail
recorded in the final image was most definitely placed there.

> The eye is very adapt even over huge contrast ranges; the painter
> can simply paint with 4 or 5 stops of luminosity, no matter if
> the real thing has only 2 or 12+ stops.

He *can*, but the usual training (which I think is perfectly appopriate)
tells you not do do so, or you will lose the proper sense of light.

Anyhow, my point isn't so much about the process but the final
appearance.  Painters tend to value images in which there is a strong
sense of light and shadow that is supported by the presence of detail in
one area and its relative absence in the other.  Photographers tend to
want detail everywhere.

> Both have their place, and there are quite a few very high
> contrast low key portraits.

True enough.  And correspondingly, there are quite a few low contrast
middle-value paintings.  But on the whole, it seems these are *not* the
norm of what is usually considered desirable in the respective genres.
I just find that interesting.

---------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

Music, art,  & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 28 Aug 2006 14:17 GMT
>>> I find it ironic, BTW, that photographers in general seem so
>>> concerned with shadow detail.  One of the first things you learn in
>>> painting is to *avoid* placing too much detail in the shadows, as
>>> that kills the sense of light.

>> Ah, but that's a different thing.
>> You don't *place* detail in the shadow, you _keep_ detail in the
>> shadows.

> Last I checked, the canvas started out blank white,

So you have to _place_ detail in the shadow, even put in the
shadow.

> and a piece of film
> or a digital sensor starts out with no image represented.

Yes.  So what do you do, go and paint the shadow detail _in
the scene_ away?  Or do that in post-processing?

> Any detail recorded in the final image was most definitely placed
> there.

Any detail recorded there was in the three dimensional scene
that was shot.  Not always can you control the scene.

>> The eye is very adapt even over huge contrast ranges; the painter
>> can simply paint with 4 or 5 stops of luminosity, no matter if
>> the real thing has only 2 or 12+ stops.

> He *can*, but the usual training (which I think is perfectly appopriate)
> tells you not do do so, or you will lose the proper sense of light.

Hmmm, so what is the difference between the lightest and the
darkest part of the average painter's work?

You can surely raise the black point (and get everything look
like greyish haze) or lower the white points (and get grey
instead of white).  I ... doubt ... that that will give you
the best of images most of the time.

> Anyhow, my point isn't so much about the process but the final
> appearance.  Painters tend to value images in which there is a strong
> sense of light and shadow that is supported by the presence of detail in
> one area and its relative absence in the other.  Photographers tend to
> want detail everywhere.

Not really.  Even photographers can place things in Zone I or
0 or IX or X.  But they prefer to be able to _choose_ to do so.

-Wolfgang
Marc Sabatella - 28 Aug 2006 22:17 GMT
> So you have to _place_ detail in the shadow, even put in the
> shadow.

Yes, that's what I said in the first place.

>> and a piece of film
>> or a digital sensor starts out with no image represented.
>
> Yes.  So what do you do, go and paint the shadow detail _in
> the scene_ away?  Or do that in post-processing?

Not sure what you're asking here.  In painting, you simply don't paint
all the detail you see.  It takes a considerable amount of training and
discipline to decide where to paint detail and where not to - and how
much dynamic range to use in painting the detail that does get painted -
in order to create a painting that is perceived in the art world as
"convincing".  In photography, if you simply shot the scene as is and
did no processing, you'd get results that many artists would consider
excellent.  But it seems many photographers are into this "high dynamic
range" thing where they deliberately go to great lengths - either
through the use of shining fill lights into the shadow areas when
shooting, or through post-processing - to create images that a painter
would find much less convincing and aesthetically pleasing than the
original version.

>>> The eye is very adapt even over huge contrast ranges; the painter
>>> can simply paint with 4 or 5 stops of luminosity, no matter if
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Hmmm, so what is the difference between the lightest and the
> darkest part of the average painter's work?

Artists don't usually think in terms of "stops" - instead, we use a 10
or 11 step "value scale", where 0 or 1 represents black, 10 white (some
reverse the sense of this).  A typical  painting would use only values
1-9 at most - pure white and pure black are both pretty rare - but most
paintings would indeed use much if not all of that 1-9 range.  The trick
would be how you map those values to elements in the scene.  The typical
mistake beginners would make is to have the darkest thing in the scene
be 1, the lightest thing 9, and scale everything else evenly throughout
that range, so detail is spread evenly throughout the painting at the
expense of the illusion of light.  Much more effective is to decide to
concentrate your detail in either the lights *or* the shadows.  If you
elect to have the detail in the lights, you might decide that values 3-9
will be for the light areas of the painting, and values 1-2 for the
shadow.  You paint more detail, and have a larger dynamic range
available, in the lights, and deliberately compress the dynamic range
and simply detail in the shadows.  Or the other way around.

>> Photographers tend to
>> want detail everywhere.
>
> Not really.  Even photographers can place things in Zone I or
> 0 or IX or X.  But they prefer to be able to _choose_ to do so.

I'm not familiar with zone system terminology, but I'll assume that is
roughly equivalent to the idea of having an object represented with
little detail and little dynamic range at the extremes of the value
range.  I'll simply observe that while photographers may value that
choice, in my experience, most of the time, they will choose *not* to do
so, and indeed, will go to some lengths - including the use of fill
lights and post-processing for HDR - in order to *counter* an effect a
painter would have been likely to choose to *exaggerate*.

---------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

Music, art,  & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 01 Sep 2006 12:17 GMT
>> So you have to _place_ detail in the shadow, even put in the
>> shadow.

> Yes, that's what I said in the first place.

Please respect the context.  You were talking about
photograpy and painting, *I* was talking _only_ about
painting.

>>> and a piece of film
>>> or a digital sensor starts out with no image represented.

>> Yes.  So what do you do, go and paint the shadow detail _in
>> the scene_ away?  Or do that in post-processing?

> Not sure what you're asking here.

Assume a scene.  3 Rocks.  A dark one, a snowcapped white
one and a middle-gray one.

I photograph them.  I can choose:
- Paint the dark rock completely black (because otherwise there'd
 be shadow detail in it's texture) --- and maybe treat the darker
 parts of the middle-gray rock the same.
 (no, I need the white to be white and then the dark parts
 will still show detail)
- blacken them in post-processing (photoshop etc)
- accept that there _is_ shadow detail in the scene

> In painting, you simply don't paint all the detail you see.

That's a painting.  Not a photography.

> In photography, if you simply shot the scene as is and
> did no processing, you'd get results that many artists would consider
> excellent.  But it seems many photographers are into this "high dynamic
> range" thing where they deliberately go to great lengths - either
> through the use of shining fill lights into the shadow areas when
> shooting, or through post-processing

... or through multiple, bracketted exposures and merging ...

> - to create images that a painter
> would find much less convincing and aesthetically pleasing than the
> original version.

Photography is a different medium from painting.

A painter painting a night scene in the city could:
- paint only the street lights in detail and leave the rest
 black
- paint the street lights in pure white, obliterating detail
 and getting some detail outside the pure shadow
- flatten the contrast (like a photographer might)
- _not_ paint this.

   http://www.enchgallery.com/2dfineart/2dfineartpages/synchronism.htm
flattened contrast/blue hour

   http://www.smithklein.com/Collection/Painting/Oilac/OvanesBerberian/LastLight/vi
ewFull?colorValue=fffafa

little but discernible shadow detail

   http://www.smithklein.com/Collection/Painting/Oilac/OvanesBerberian/FoolMoon/vie
wFull?colorValue=fffafa

clear shadow detail

   http://www.smithklein.com/Collection/Painting/Oildn/AnnDettmer/OnceMoreWithFeeli
nI/viewFull?colorValue=fffafa

flattened contrast or interior lighting, for else you'd loose
the interior details (wall would be black, easel, backlit
grille, ... ).  Basically, someone used a flash here :-)

   http://www.smithklein.com/Collection/Painting/Oildn/AnnDettmer/SunsetatBurgerKin
g/viewFull?colorValue=fffafa

clear shadow detail

   http://www.smithklein.com/Collection/Painting/Oildn/AnnDettmer/WestColfax/viewFu
ll?colorValue=fffafa

lots and clear shadow detail

   http://www.absolutearts.com/cgi-bin/portfolio/art/your-art.cgi?login=frida&title
=Street_lamps-975985852t.jpg

look at the tree/bushes ...

   http://www.jmlondon.com/pages/single/13045-s.html
   http://www.jmlondon.com/pages/single/12864-s.html
quite like a photograpy, don't you agree?

   http://www.jmlondon.com/pages/single/21493-s.html
look at the dark graduation at the right side, for example

   http://www.jmlondon.com/pages/single/22021-s.html
Even the trees have shadow detail!  (use curves on it to see
it clearly)

   http://eu.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/PD--10026440/SP--A/IGID--768191/White_Lights.htm?
sOrig=CAT&sOrigID=6659&ui=DF3C869FC8DD40F68379A2FA86C63808

While the houses are black (except for the windows), but look
at the sky.

... and many more.

>>> He *can*, but the usual training (which I think is perfectly
>>> appopriate) tells you not do do so, or you will lose the proper
>>> sense of light.

>> Hmmm, so what is the difference between the lightest and the
>> darkest part of the average painter's work?

> Artists don't usually think in terms of "stops" - instead, we use a 10
> or 11 step "value scale", where 0 or 1 represents black, 10 white (some
> reverse the sense of this).

Look at the zone system.  0: blackest black, X (i.e. 10): paper white.

> A typical  painting would use only values
> 1-9 at most - pure white and pure black are both pretty rare - but most
> paintings would indeed use much if not all of that 1-9 range.

sounds like most photographs ... look at "normalizing".

> The trick
> would be how you map those values to elements in the scene.  The typical
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> available, in the lights, and deliberately compress the dynamic range
> and simply detail in the shadows.  Or the other way around.

i.e. playing with curves.

>>> Photographers tend to
>>> want detail everywhere.

>> Not really.  Even photographers can place things in Zone I or
>> 0 or IX or X.  But they prefer to be able to _choose_ to do so.

> I'm not familiar with zone system terminology, but I'll assume that is
> roughly equivalent to the idea of having an object represented with
> little detail and little dynamic range at the extremes of the value
> range.

Aeh, no.
It's a method of pre-visualizing density, graduation and texture
visible in the final print.

It uses a 11 step scale (using roman numerals), where V is
middle gray, and every step up or down is a _stop_ up or down
(though that will be stretched or compressed in development (or
in printing with the choice of the grade of the paper (or using
multi-graded papers)) to get the contrast you need.

It is based on black-and-white printing (but that doesn't
mean it cannot be used for digital color photography with
some adjustements for the technology.)

The extreme ranges (0 and X) are pure black/white.
The extreme but one ranges (I and IX) are showing light tonality,
   but no texture.  (which would be somewhat hard for paintings:
   the brush stroke gives texture, for example)
The extreme but two ranges (II and VIII) get tonality and first
   texture.
The extreme but three ranges (III and VII) show average dark/white
   subjects with full texture
The middle ranges (IV, V VI) are, well, the middle, with V being
   18% gray,

Between each range there's one fstop.

Pages like
   http://thunderstorm.cicada.com/pub/photo/zs/toc.html
seem to explain it well.

> I'll simply observe that while photographers may value that
> choice, in my experience, most of the time, they will choose *not* to do
> so, and indeed, will go to some lengths - including the use of fill
> lights and post-processing for HDR - in order to *counter* an effect a
> painter would have been likely to choose to *exaggerate*.

So?  You are accusing photographers to not be painters and to
use a different language?  To try to use new technique?  I guess
expressionism/cubism/abstract paintings were not hailed as the
greatest thing since sliced bread at their beginning, either.

And because *you* are so unhappy with that, it's not a problem
if digital cameras have bad shadow detail?

-Wolfgang
AaronW - 25 Aug 2006 22:14 GMT
> The eye is very adapt even over huge contrast ranges; the painter
> can simply paint with 4 or 5 stops of luminosity, no matter if
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> not always possible with irregular shapes! --- or use reflectors,
> flash, or HDI, etc. to reduce the absolute differences.

What is HDI?

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 28 Aug 2006 14:22 GMT
> What is HDI?

A Typo.  I meant HDR.
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_dynamic_range_imaging

-Wolfgang
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 25 Aug 2006 20:03 GMT
>> What sort of 'concert musician pictures' can't you stand, and why?

> Almost any kind. Such pictures look too static to me.

Hmmm.
What would such a picture need to be non-static?

> A picture of an orchestra is usually uninteresting, unless you get
> close enough to emphasize a single individual or very small group.

True.  So go for faces or half-body 'portraits'.

> Anything outside of classical music simply does not interest me and I
> find some of the performers revolting in their appearance.

Ah, yes, some musicians prefer to stun visually rather then
aurally ...

> I have a few pictures of choral groups taken in a darkened auditorium
> and I never had to go above ISO 400 to get them.

f/1.2 at 1/30s?  :-)

Try catching someone's hand playing an instrument, say a
concert harp, a percussion instrument or a lute.

OK; I do have some pics with multi-second exposures of that
kind of thing, it just isn't easy to get a keeper.

>> Did you ever try shooting animal life, especially nocturnal beasts?

> Actually, yes. But I still have never had to go above ISO 400.

You only shot whenever they crossed a sunbathed clearing? ;-)

> I figure that if I ever get around to photographing the bats around
> here I will have to use flash anyway, and probably a wireless shutter
> trip, too.

A flash can help, but, ah, you'll need some idea of what to do
with the background.  I, at least, don't like it all-black.

But then I will shoot with flash, f/1.4, high ISO and multi-second
exposures --- free hand.  And get good results, if I do things
right.

>> "It is not easy to become beautiful. It requires hard work, patience, and
>> attention to detail. It also takes a certain firmness of purpose. Beauty
>> is in the eye of the beholder, and it may be necessary from time to time
>> to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye." -Miss Piggy

> Well, I have had plenty of black eyes in my day, but they have never
> made me any smarter or better informed.

Nobody said it did.  But maybe that's the reason for the
'plenty'.

-Wolfgang
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 24 Aug 2006 19:42 GMT
>> And I think that ISO 1600 is plenty, unless you need more.

>> Like shooting with f3.2, 1/80s, 200mm handheld (with IS) because
>> you're indoors, it's darkish and you prefer not to use flash.
>> Then you are glad that you have ISO3200, and wouldn't mind
>> ISO 6400 or ISO 12800, if the noise is bearable.

> Why, sure, if you like bad pictures

I feel some of them are quite lovely and near perfect.

> with dark shadows.

You only get dark shadows in dark places or with high ISO settings?
I though you get the darkest shadows in very high contrast
situations, like:
- shooting the full moon at night
- shooting under the blazing sun, when some things are in the
 shade (which is why people who know what they do so often use
 fill flash in these situations)
- shooting with strong light sources in the dark (bonfire in
 the night, street at night with street lanterns, ...) when
 exposing for the highlights.

> Then who cares about the noise?

In the darker parts, sure, you care about shadow.

> Rule #1 in photography: If the light is bad, don't take the picture.

There is no 'bad' light.  There's only a technical problem of
creating the right light (like moving the sun behind a cloud, using
reflectors, flash units, the right filters, etc ... depending on
the circumstances.  OK, moving the sun or the cloud may be a
bit hard for a mere mortal.)

I do deem a single candle enough for some types of face-only
portrait; and hey, this is rec.photo.digital.slr-systems.  See the
"digital"?  You can delete the bad picture, and learn something
about your and your cameras' limits in the process.

> and rule #2 is like unto it: If you took the picture anyway, don't show
> it to anybody.

You're completely wrong!
The rule is: Don't show your bad pictures, and it doesn't matter
if you shot them at ISO 100 with perfect light or not.

> Every photo I have ever seen where somebody insisted that he needed
> more than ISO 400 was, in a word, terrible.

So?  I haven't seen you ever, so may I conclude you don't exist?

> Okay, there are some
> exceptions with grainy ISO 1000 black and white film -- they are only
> half terrible.

I see ...

-Wolfgang
Paul Mitchum - 15 Aug 2006 06:18 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> old maxxum lenses and/or buy legacy lenses for specific needs from ebay or
> used market.

Who's telling you that you can use old Maxxum lenses on a Pentax?
Padu - 15 Aug 2006 06:52 GMT
"Paul Mitchum"

> Who's telling you that you can use old Maxxum lenses on a Pentax?

All the reviews I've read so far.

this is one of them:

"Sony Alpha/Minolta-A bayonet lens mount"
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2006_reviews/alpha100.html

They also mention that flash hotshoe is compatible with some minolta
flashes... I have a minolta 4000AF, maybe it is compatible too?
Paul Mitchum - 15 Aug 2006 07:02 GMT
> "Paul Mitchum"
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> They also mention that flash hotshoe is compatible with some minolta
> flashes... I have a minolta 4000AF, maybe it is compatible too?

Ah, so you've read that the M