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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / August 2006

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D80 details announced...

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frederick - 09 Aug 2006 01:44 GMT
http://www.nikon.com.my/pagearticle.php?pageid=91
Darrell Larose - 09 Aug 2006 02:24 GMT
> http://www.nikon.com.my/pagearticle.php?pageid=91

Nikon has messed up, this is really just a D60, A 10.2 megapixel camera that
uses SD cards?
G.T. - 09 Aug 2006 03:02 GMT
> > http://www.nikon.com.my/pagearticle.php?pageid=91
>
> Nikon has messed up, this is really just a D60, A 10.2 megapixel camera that
> uses SD cards?

SD is kind of cheesy.  But the Auto ISO sounds cool.

Greg
Ed Ruf  (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 09 Aug 2006 03:16 GMT
>SD is kind of cheesy.  But the Auto ISO sounds cool.

Not new, D70 and D50 all ready had this.
--
Ed Ruf (Usenet2@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
DoN. Nichols - 09 Aug 2006 04:55 GMT
According to Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) <egruf_usenet2@cox.net>:

> >SD is kind of cheesy.  But the Auto ISO sounds cool.
>
> Not new, D70 and D50 all ready had this.

    Agreed!  I use it frequently.  It can make the difference in
getting a shot quickly or not being ready in time -- even though the ISO
can be changed without diving into the menus.

    But I was not able to see anything useful on that posted web
page, for whatever reason.  Mostly large blank areas, even with
JavaScript turned on.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

Signature

Email:   <dnichols@d-and-d.com>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
          --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

John Francis - 09 Aug 2006 06:01 GMT
>> > http://www.nikon.com.my/pagearticle.php?pageid=91
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>SD is kind of cheesy.  But the Auto ISO sounds cool.

About time, too.   I've had that on my Pentax for 3 years.
And in a month I'll see what Pentax are going to do for the
same price as the D80.  We know it will have 10.2MP, and
shake reduction (on *all* lenses, even old manual focus ones).
I hope it can do better than 3fps for a mere 6 frames of RAW.
David Kilpatrick - 09 Aug 2006 11:46 GMT
>>>>http://www.nikon.com.my/pagearticle.php?pageid=91
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> shake reduction (on *all* lenses, even old manual focus ones).
> I hope it can do better than 3fps for a mere 6 frames of RAW.

Looks like the makers are being conservative. The Sony A100 is rated
about the same as the Nikon D80 for raw shooting sequences, but users
immediately found they were getting 50 to 100 per cent more pix with
fast CF cards. The stated figures seem to be 'safe' not the actual
maximum. Nikon will no doubt be doing the same to avoid people claiming
their camera fails to meet specs.

David
cjcampbell - 09 Aug 2006 04:28 GMT
> http://www.nikon.com.my/pagearticle.php?pageid=91

Ah. The site has been removed. Apparently it jumped the gun a little
bit "accidentally on purpose." No matter, only a few more hours and
everything will be up again.

Except for the SD cards, which some people apparently don't like (tough
toenails), it appears to be a plastic version of the D200. Smaller top
LCD, with less information. Buttons on the back rearranged from the D70
layout. 11 area auto-focus. It probably only has one channel available
for wireless flash and can control only one group. Uses the tiny little
ML-3 remote controller for shutter release -- all it does is trip the
shutter, but it is very handy. It can't use the more advanced wireless
remote controllers. Probably mirror lock-up and/or delay. Possibly a BW
mode. More control over noise reduction. IOW, just about all of the
most commonly used features of the D200, for $899.
frederick - 09 Aug 2006 04:50 GMT
>> http://www.nikon.com.my/pagearticle.php?pageid=91
>
> Ah. The site has been removed. Apparently it jumped the gun a little
> bit "accidentally on purpose." No matter, only a few more hours and
> everything will be up again.
Just in case it isn't:

Tokyo — Nikon Corporation is pleased to introduce the D80. Incorporating
Nikon's latest digital and photographic technologies, this new
high-performance interchangeable-lens digital SLR camera features
automated operation and advanced features designed to satisfy any
photographer with the passion to create beautiful photographs and
preserve special moments.

The D80 features a new 10.2 effective megapixel DX Format CCD image
sensor, bringing a new level of high resolution and sharp detail to the
class while also providing plenty of freedom to crop creatively and
print impressive enlargements. Nikon's DX Format sensor and Nikon F
bayonet lens mount design assure unprecedented compatibility across the
comprehensive assortment of AF Nikkor lenses and DX Nikkor lenses
designed exclusively for Nikon digital SLR cameras.

One of the key advances developed for the D80 is Nikon's own
high-resolution image processing engine. Advantages inherited from
Nikon's latest professional digital SLR cameras include color
independent analog pre-conditioning and high-precision 12-bit digital
image processing algorithms, which combine to produce natural-looking
images that benefit from faithful color and tone reproduction. A new
dedicated high-performance processing chip greatly accelerates
performance on all levels, while also achieving lower power consumption,
assuring more pictures per battery charge.

Nikon's exclusive 3D Color Matrix Metering II ensures accurate automatic
exposure control for ideal exposures, even in the most challenging
lighting conditions. Evaluating, rather than merely measuring or
averaging the true content of each scene, input from the system's
frame-wide 420-pixel sensor is automatically referenced against an
onboard database of over 30,000 scenes from actual photography to
calculate final exposure value. Variable center-weighted metering and
spot metering centered on the active focus area are also available, as
are exposure compensation and auto exposure bracketing. Sophisticated
exposure automation combined with options for complete user control help
to make the D80 an ideal high-performance digital SLR for passionate
photography enthusiasts.

Advanced Auto White Balance (AWB) produces natural coloration by
measuring the entire frame of each scene and matching white balance to
the light source. For those who wish greater personal control, the
flexible options include a choice of six specific manual settings,
(Incandescent, Fluorescent, Direct Sunlight, Flash, Cloudy, and Shade),
as well as a preset option for using a gray or white object as a reference.

Ensuring consistently fast and precise focus lock under varying shooting
conditions is the D80's refined 11-area AF system. Adopting a refined
version of Nikon's advanced Multi-CAM 1000 AF Sensor Module, this new
11-area AF system adds effective new focusing options that will instill
greater confidence in getting the desired shot. For example, while the
system is able to use each of its 11 focus areas individually, the
center sensor can also be switched to wide-frame operation for broader
coverage. New Auto-area AF mode measures all 11 focus areas,
automatically determines which of them are on the primary subject, and
activates only those areas.

Ready to shoot whenever that priceless expression or special moment
presents itself, the D80 takes only 0.18 seconds to power up. And, the
shutter's minimal release lag time of approx. 80 milliseconds delivers
instant response while shooting, as does the fast and precise focus of
the refined 11-area AF system with AF-assist illuminator. Images are
processed instantly and recorded quickly to the inserted SD memory card.
Preview images are also displayed near instantly.

Continuous shooting at a rapid 3 frames per second in bursts of up to
100 JPEG (FINE M-size or smaller) images makes action photography a reality.

Packing high performance and high resolution into a slimmer, more
compact body, the D80 also remains true to Nikon's commitment to
intuitive operation. The size, layout and operation of all buttons and
controls are designed for maximum ease of use.

The D80 features a large and bright viewfinder with large 0.94x
magnification to ensure the clearest view possible for precise
composition. Included is a built-in diopter adjustment control knob also
makes it easier to fine-tune the view to match eyesight. The
viewfinder's integrated grid display can also be turned on to assist
composition.

A large new 2.5-inch 230,000-dot high-resolution LCD provides an
ultra-wide 170-degree viewing angle from all directions. A new dedicated
Zoom button makes it easy to preview images and assess sharpness at up
to 25 times magnification. A new RGB histogram display aids in
evaluating exposures with greater precision. Other playback options
include single frame, 4 or 9-image thumbnail display, an improved
histogram display and highlight point display.

The D80 also adds built-in Standard or Advanced Pictmotion slideshow
options, which includes style selections that control transitions and
background music. Shows can be enjoyed on the 2.5-inch LCD, or complete
with audio on a television when connected via the supplied AV cable.

A new menu interface featuring refinements to the carefully chosen color
scheme and increased font size makes navigation easier on the eye,
easier to understand and easier to use. Menus can be customized to
display only selected items using the new "My Menu" set.

Exclusive in-camera image editing features under the new Retouch menu
help ensure consistently satisfying results and greater creative freedom
without the use of a computer. D-Lighting automatically brings out
detail to enhance results and add creative flair, all while optimizing
overall exposure balance. Red-eye correction automatically detects and
compensates for the annoying red-eye effect sometimes caused by flash.
Trim can be used to produce smaller files for easy sharing or greater
efficiency. Image Overlay merges a pair of selected RAW (NEF) files
taken with the D80 to create a new composite image. Other options
include Monochrome settings (Black-and-white, Sepia, Cyanotype) and
Filter Effects (Skylight, Warm filter, Color balance).

Multiple Exposure is a new shooting option that creates a single image
within the camera from up to 3 consecutive exposures, producing an
effect automatically that resembles multiple exposure techniques used
with film.

Creative photography is as simple as rotating the mode dial with the
D80's selection of seven automated Digital Vari-Programs. Choose from
Auto, Portrait, Landscape, Close Up, Sports, Night Landscape, or Night
Portrait and the selected program automatically optimizes white balance,
sharpening, tone (contrast), color, saturation and hue settings to best
match the shot. The D80 also offers personal control over image
optimization settings, with user-selectable menu settings for the
Normal, Softer, Vivid, More vivid, Portrait, Custom and Black-and-white
options.

The powerful built-in flash employs Nikon's highly robust i-TTL flash
control for greater precision in flash exposure evaluation that achieves
better automatic flash balance. i-TTL flash control also helps realize
built-in features such as Repeating flash function for creating
stroboscopic effects and the Modeling Flash, which allows photographers
to visually assess overall lighting and shadow conditions prior to
shooting. Full support for the Advanced Wireless Lighting System lets
the built-in flash function as a two-group remote commander that
provides direct control over wireless SB-800 or SB-600 Speedlights.

The inherent advantages of the D80 combine with the empowering and
creatively inspiring components of Nikon's Total Digital Imaging System
to deliver a new level of operating ease, expanded creative
possibilities, and pure enjoyment. This of course begins with the lineup
of interchangeable high-quality AF and DX Nikkor lenses. It extends to
maximizing the potential of Nikon’s Creative Lighting System, offering
benefits such as i-TTL flash control, Advanced Wireless Lighting, highly
reliable FV Lock and Auto FP High-Speed Sync, and enabling
high-precision flash photography with SB-800, SB-600 and SB-R200
Speedlights.

Convenient and practical Total Imaging System add-ons include the new
MB-D80 Multi-Power Battery Pack. Featuring an ergonomic design that
blends added stability with extended shooting potential and more
comfortable shooting in vertical format. The Wireless ML-L3 (IR) Remote
Control and MC-DC1 Remote Cord options provide necessary camera
stability when using long exposures, such as for landscape and macro
photography.

Nikon’s PictureProject software, provided with every purchase of a Nikon
D80, enables easy image importing, editing, organization and sharing.
Design templates make it easy to produce prints, tailor images to
e-mail, or layout several images on a page to produce creative album
layouts.

Capture NX (available for purchase separately) is Nikon’s highly
versatile and elegantly simple new photo editing solution designed for
those who desire more creative control over post-processing and to help
photographers tap the full potential of NEF (RAW) images. Featuring an
innovative user interface that provides easier access to powerful and
visually intuitive enhancement tools, Capture NX's powerful photo image
processing and editing tools can also be applied to JPEG and TIFF files
to satisfy a broader range of photofinishing needs and applications.

The Nikon D80 beautifully combines the best of latest advances in
digital technology with ease of operation and quick and efficient camera
handling. Add to this the advantages of Nikon's Total Imaging System and
every aspiring photographer is certain to enjoy the Nikon digital SLR
experience as much as the superb pictures produced with the D80.

Note: Specifications and equipment are subject to change without any
notice or obligation on the part of the manufacturer.

Nikon D80 Major Features

Exceptional imaging quality

    *
      New 10.2 effective megapixel Nikon DX Format CCD image sensor
with the power to capture exceptional sharpness and faithful color at
3,872 x 2,592 pixels size.
    *
      Inherits the industry-leading advanced imaging processing engine
of Nikon professional D-SLR cameras. Color-independent pre-conditioning
prior to A/D conversion works in harmony with high-precision digital
image processing algorithms to produce natural-looking images that
benefit from faithful color and tone reproduction.
    *

      3D Color Matrix Metering II automatic exposure control ensures
ideal exposures in most lighting conditions. Evaluating brightness,
color, contrast, selected focus area and camera-to-subject distance, the
system references the data against an expanded onboard database created
using data from more than 30,000 actual photographic scenes to instantly
and accurately calculate the final exposure value for the shot. Variable
center-weighted metering and spot metering centered on the active focus
area are also available.
    *

      Refined 11-area AF system packs the same number of focus areas
available for the professional D2 series into a space-efficient system
that features fast, precise operation. Each of the 11 focus areas can be
used individually, the center sensor can be switched to wide-frame
operation for broader coverage, and new Auto-area AF mode measures all
11 focus areas, automatically determines which of them are on the
primary subject and activates only those areas.
    *

      ISO AUTO mode automatically adjusts sensitivity between ISO 100
to 1600 to maximize available light and achieve optimal exposure.
Sensitivity can also be set manually between ISO 100 to 1600 in steps of
1/3 EV, plus HI-0.3, HI-0.7 and HI-1. Three levels of High ISO Noise
Reduction are available when shooting at high ISO settings. Long
Exposure Noise Reduction is also available when shooting at shutter
speeds of 8 seconds or slower.

Optimized and Predictable Results

    *
      Seven automated Digital Vari-Programs easily accessed from the
Mode Dial provide automatic operation that optimizes white balance,
sharpening, tone, color, saturation and hue for crisp and vivid results
that match the intended shot. Selections include Auto, Portrait,
Landscape, Close Up, Sports, Night Landscape and Night Portrait.
    *

      Easily accessed image optimization options closely tailor results
to the scene at hand or the intended use of the image. Image sharpening,
tone (contrast) compensation, color mode, saturation and hue adjustment
is controlled by the user-selected choice of Normal, Softer, Vivid, More
vivid, Portrait, Custom and Black-and-white.

Immediate response and fast performance

    *
      Near instant power-up of 0.18 seconds lets photographers respond
to any shutter opportunities.
    *

      A mere 80-millisecond shutter time lag (approximate) promotes
fast handling.

      Swift continuous shooting performance at 3 frames per second*
enables the shooting of up to 100 JPEG (FINE M-size or smaller) or up to
6 RAW (NEF) images.
      * Average frame rate with continuous-servo AF, manual or
shutter-priority auto exposure, a shutter speed of 1/250 seconds or
faster, and remaining buffer memory.
    *

      Shutter speeds ranging from 1/4,000 to 30 seconds or bulb setting
provide full creative control.

In-camera image editing and effects

    *
      Creative in-camera effects and editing functions available under
the new Retouch menu:
          o

            D-Lighting automatically brings out detail to enhance
results and add creative flair, all while optimizing overall exposure
balance.
          o

            Red-eye correction automatically detects and compensates
for the annoying red-eye effect sometimes caused by flash.
          o

            Trim can be used to produce smaller files for easy sharing
or greater efficiency for specific end purposes.
          o

            Image Overlay merges a pair of selected RAW (NEF) files
taken with the D80 to create a new composite image that can be saved in
RAW or JPEG format.
          o

            Monochrome settings (Black-and-white, Sepia, Cyanotype)
          o

            Filter Effects (Skylight, Warm filter, Color balance)
    *

      Multiple Exposure creates a single image within the camera from
up to 3 consecutive exposures to produce imaginative and even surreal
results.

Ergonomics for efficient handling and further versatility

    *

      The D80 features a slimmer, more compact body with the size,
layout and operation of all buttons and controls designed for intuitive
operation.
    *

      A large new 2.5-inch LCD monitor with a 170˚ viewing angle and
new dedicated zoom button assist accurate and easy assessment of
sharpness by enabling image preview at up to 25 times magnification (for
L-size images). Convenient displays include RGB information as a single
histogram display or as separate histograms for each color channel.
    *

      Built-in slideshow options include Advanced Pictmotion shows with
style selections that control transitions and background music, and that
can be enjoyed on the 2.5-inch LCD, or complete with audio on a
television via the supplied AV cable.
    *

      The carefully chosen color scheme and increased font size of the
new color-coded menu display makes navigation easier on the eye, easier
to understand and easier to use. "My Menu" lets you customize Menus to
display only the items you wish to see.
    *

      Bright pentaprism viewfinder with large 0.94x magnification
ensures the clearest view possible for precise composition.
    *

      Nikon's EN-EL3e rechargeable lithium-ion battery delivers enough
power to support the shooting of up to 2,700* images on a single charge,
can be recharged at any time and features a handy real-time fuel gauge
system display that shows remaining charge by percentage, number of
shots since last charge and overall battery status.

      * Achieved under the following test conditions: Fully charged
EN-EL3e battery; temperature of 20°C/68°F; Zoom-Nikkor AF-S DX 18-135mm
f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED lens; continuous shooting mode: continuous-servo
autofocus; image quality set to JPEG BASIC; image size set to Medium;
shutter speed 1/250 second; shutter release pressed halfway for three
seconds and focus cycled from infinity to minimum range three times with
each shot; monitor turned on for five seconds after six shots and then
turned off; cycle repeated once exposure meters turned off.

Seamless integration with Nikon's Total Imaging System

    *

      Unprecedented compatibility with Nikon’s lineup of AF Nikkor
lenses and digital-exclusive DX Nikkor lenses. (When used with the D80
or any DX Format SLR, all AF and DX Nikkor lenses have a picture angle
comparable to 1.5x that of 35mm [135] format.)
    *

      Compatibility with the Nikon Creative Lighting System allows the
D80 to work seamlessly with SB-800, SB-600 and SB-R200 Speedlights to
deliver the benefits of i-TTL flash control’s advanced monitor
pre-flash, accurate measurement for bounce and versatile wireless
operation. SB-800 and SB-600 Speedlights also offer a Wide-Area
AF-assist Illuminator, which aids flash photography in dim light by
projecting a pattern of red light that covers all eleven autofocus areas
of the D80’s 11-area Multi-CAM 1000 AF Sensor Module.
    *

      The optional MB-D80 battery pack adds extended shooting
capability in an ergonomic design that adds shooting stability. Able to
run on either one or two EN-EL3e batteries or six AA-size batteries*,
the pack also features an additional command dial and alternative
buttons for shutter release and AE-Lock/AF-Lock that make vertical
shooting more comfortable.

      * Compatible AA-size batteries comprise alkaline, Ni-MH, lithium
and nickel-manganese batteries.
    *

      PictureProject (complimentary with camera) software features an
intuitive user interface that provides fast and easy access to powerful
tools for organizing, editing and sharing images. Auto Enhance and other
creative functions are readily available via handy buttons, as are Mail,
Slideshow and CD/DVD burning functions. Pictures can be organized using
simple drag ‘n’ drop operation, and can be quickly located by name,
keyword, or date. Design templates make it easy to produce prints,
tailor images to e-mail, or layout several images on a page to produce
creative album layouts.
    *

      Capture NX (available for purchase separately) is Nikon’s highly
versatile and elegantly simple new photo editing solution designed to
help photographers tap the full potential of NEF (RAW) images. Featuring
an innovative user interface that provides easier access to powerful and
visually intuitive enhancement tools, Capture NX's powerful photo image
processing and editing tools can also be applied to JPEG and TIFF files
to satisfy a broader range of photofinishing needs and applications.
burnsdavidj@yahoo.com - 09 Aug 2006 15:34 GMT
> >> http://www.nikon.com.my/pagearticle.php?pageid=91

Aside from auto ISO, more megapixels (definitely overdue!) and a bigger
LCD screen, i"m a bit...underwhelmed. SD card is certainly a mistake.

People were complaining the 30D was a poor upgrade on the 20D...at
least the 30D didn't _downgrade_ anything (re: SD card).

I'll reserve final judgement until people are field testing it, but
having worked with molasses-slow SD card equipment before, I wouldn't
touch this with a 10" pole. The Sony Alpha is looking better and better
as a Canon alternative.
David J Taylor - 09 Aug 2006 15:57 GMT
[]
> Aside from auto ISO, more megapixels (definitely overdue!) and a
> bigger LCD screen, i"m a bit...underwhelmed. SD card is certainly a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> touch this with a 10" pole. The Sony Alpha is looking better and
> better as a Canon alternative.

The SD cards I've tested are just as fast as CF cards, and most exceed the
capability of the camera to write to them at full speed.  I think you must
have been unfortunate in your equipment before, if your view of SD is that
it is "molasses-slow".  These days, I think I prefer SD to CF, although
it's close.

David
burnsdavidj@yahoo.com - 09 Aug 2006 16:12 GMT
> The SD cards I've tested are just as fast as CF cards, and most exceed the
> capability of the camera to write to them at full speed.  I think you must
> have been unfortunate in your equipment before, if your view of SD is that
> it is "molasses-slow".  These days, I think I prefer SD to CF, although
> it's close.

Granted my experience with SD cards has primairly been in lower-end
electronic equipment, mainly becase CF has been in the domain of the
higher end professional realm.

But even today, the fastest SD cards are capable of bursts of
20mb/second, whereas CF is at least 40mb/second. CF are definitely more
durable/reliable, if only due to their construction too.

3-series Sandisk CF and SD cards are both rated at 20mb/sec, but I've
never seen a device capable of writing to the SD cards that quickly.

Either way, its a cheesy move... either a cost savings measure by
Nikon, or a deliberate attempt to steer D70 users towards a D200
instead of a D80 upgrade.
David J Taylor - 09 Aug 2006 16:17 GMT
[]
> Either way, its a cheesy move... either a cost savings measure by
> Nikon, or a deliberate attempt to steer D70 users towards a D200
> instead of a D80 upgrade.

I see your viewpoint, but to me it's simply changing to what is perhaps
now the more popular storage medium.

Whilst CF cards may be more durable, the multiple fine pin contact
mechanism seems, to me, potentially less reliable than that wide
spring-leaf contacts used on SD cards.

David
J. Clarke - 10 Aug 2006 14:32 GMT
> []
>> Either way, its a cheesy move... either a cost savings measure by
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> mechanism seems, to me, potentially less reliable than that wide
> spring-leaf contacts used on SD cards.

Having bent pins in a CF slot I can say from experience that I prefer SD to
CF from a reliability viewpoint.  Straightening a pin in a CF slot without
disassembling the camera is a pain in the butt and if you _break_ the pin
you're down until you can get the socket replaced.

> David

Signature

--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

DoN. Nichols - 10 Aug 2006 19:59 GMT
According to J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid>:

> > []
> >> Either way, its a cheesy move... either a cost savings measure by
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> disassembling the camera is a pain in the butt and if you _break_ the pin
> you're down until you can get the socket replaced.

    I've not experienced a bent pin so far (Nikon cameras and PCMCIA
CF adaptors in use), but if I did, I would go down to the shop, get some
small diameter drill rod, put it in the lathe, and drill in the end a
hole just a little larger than the pin diameter (fairly easily
determined by finding which size gauge pins will slide into an old CF
card which is too small to be worth continuing to use), chamfer the edge
of the hole, turn the OD down to small enough to clear adjacent pins,
and use this as the tool for straightening the pin(s) in question.

    I might even take the time to make a similar setup on the other
end, but bend it perhaps 15 degrees to allow reaching in to capture a
pin which was already at an awkward angle.

    Granted -- not everybody has the tools to make a special tool of
this sort.  I suspect that for drilling the hole, I would need one of
the drills from my #61-#80 set, not the more common #1-#60 set, or the
even more common fractional size drill bits.

    At least in the D70, the pins are sufficiently recessed and the
card sufficiently precisely guided by the camera so that I would not
expect problems unless I were to put the CF card in sideways.  Since I
always make a practice of feeling for the ridge on the underside of the
outer end (for front/back orientation), I am likely to notice that it is
not properly oriented before inserting it.

    Good Luck,
        DoN.
Signature

Email:   <dnichols@d-and-d.com>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
          --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Rita Ä Berkowitz - 10 Aug 2006 22:31 GMT
> I've not experienced a bent pin so far (Nikon cameras and PCMCIA
> CF adaptors in use), but if I did, I would go down to the shop, get
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> pins, and use this as the tool for straightening the pin(s) in
> question.

Or simply go down to the dollar store and buy a syringe for injecting
seasonings into your Thanksgiving turkey.  Why build something that is
already made?

Rita
DoN. Nichols - 11 Aug 2006 00:54 GMT
According to Rita Ä Berkowitz  <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com>:

> > I've not experienced a bent pin so far (Nikon cameras and PCMCIA
> > CF adaptors in use), but if I did, I would go down to the shop, get
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> seasonings into your Thanksgiving turkey.  Why build something that is
> already made?

    I haven't handled one of those.  Is the hole the right size?

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

Signature

Email:   <dnichols@d-and-d.com>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
          --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Rita Ä Berkowitz - 11 Aug 2006 01:44 GMT
>> Or simply go down to the dollar store and buy a syringe for injecting
>> seasonings into your Thanksgiving turkey.  Why build something that
>> is already made?
>
> I haven't handled one of those.  Is the hole the right size?

I've seen them in several different sizes.  They are basically a syringe
with a medical type needle that has a blunt tip.  I never used one on a CF
card reader since I never had that problem.  I used them on SCSI drives that
I picked up used and it works extremely well.  The other option is going to
the hobby store and selecting bras tubing in the ID you need.  The syringe
needles are indestructible while the brass tubing will wear quicker after
repeated use.  Hopefully bent CF pins are only a one-time deal.

Rita
DoN. Nichols - 11 Aug 2006 04:15 GMT
According to Rita Ä Berkowitz  <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com>:

> >> Or simply go down to the dollar store and buy a syringe for injecting
> >> seasonings into your Thanksgiving turkey.  Why build something that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> card reader since I never had that problem.  I used them on SCSI drives that
> I picked up used and it works extremely well.

    O.K.  SCSI pins on drives are significantly larger than the CF
pins.  And if you are talking about the old 50-pin SCSI on the drive,
the pins are square as well.  The pins on the 68-pin SCSI drives are
flat blades perhaps the same dimension at the larger dimension -- but
the ones on the drives are female, so not so vulnerable.  (I could tell
you stories of a bent pin damaging a female connector which then bends
pins on other male connectors -- this was with the HD 50-pin SCSI
connectors found on Sun workstations and their external drive boxes
perhaps about fifteen years ago. :-)

    The CF pins, as far as I can tell down at the bottom of the
camera's socket are round, which should make it easier to straighten the
pins.  The ones on the SCSI connectors above were bent "the hard way",
and broke out and angled the partitions between socket holes.

>                                                The other option is going to
> the hobby store and selecting bras tubing in the ID you need.  The syringe
> needles are indestructible while the brass tubing will wear quicker after
> repeated use.  Hopefully bent CF pins are only a one-time deal.

    O.K.  The one advantage of the lathe option is that it works on
a Sunday evening after all the stores are closed -- assuming that you
already have a lathe and other such tools. :-) And I also have long brass
stock in several diameters from 3/4" down to 3/16" which should be
sufficient to make the tools fairly quickly -- quicker for *me* than
going to the grocery store and wandering around looking for turkey
basting syringes. :-)

    My wife might find them a bit sooner, but as she has not bought
any either, it might take her a while, too.

    O.K.  She says that she does not remember seeing them there, so
one of the fancy places like Williams Sonoma might be needed -- and they
are less likely to be open on a Sunday evening if you need them in a
hurry. :-)

    I do have some of various sizes with needles which I have
purposely blunted -- including a veterinary one -- which I have filled
with various oils for metalworking operations.  It might take me longer
to clean one than to make one. :-)

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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Rita Ä Berkowitz - 10 Aug 2006 22:32 GMT
> Having bent pins in a CF slot I can say from experience that I prefer
> SD to CF from a reliability viewpoint.  Straightening a pin in a CF
> slot without disassembling the camera is a pain in the butt and if
> you _break_ the pin you're down until you can get the socket replaced.

LOL!  It's no surprise that you would do something this stupid.  Thank God
they make SATA drives foolproof.

Rita
Alan Browne - 11 Aug 2006 00:14 GMT
>> Having bent pins in a CF slot I can say from experience that I prefer
>> SD to CF from a reliability viewpoint.  Straightening a pin in a CF
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> LOL!  It's no surprise that you would do something this stupid.  Thank
> God they make SATA drives foolproof.

Since one can put CF cards in sideways, accidents are bound to happen.
And that is what happend to a friend of mine within an hour of buying
her D70.  Since she has won numerous photographic prizes, is published,
holds a B.Com/accounting, is a certified management accountant, holds an
MBA/Finance and is the comptroller of a major city, it's hardly related
to stupidity other than that of the people who designed the CF form factor.

The relationship to SATA drives escapes me, but given some of your
bizarre statements in the past ... no surprise.

Cheers,
Alan

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Rita Ä Berkowitz - 11 Aug 2006 01:33 GMT
>>> Having bent pins in a CF slot I can say from experience that I
>>> prefer SD to CF from a reliability viewpoint.  Straightening a pin
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> city, it's hardly related to stupidity other than that of the people
> who designed the CF form factor.

Though your friend's credentials sound impressive and might inspire awe in
some, I'm not in the slightest moved by them.  It's still a stupid thing to
do.  It's stupid to not be 100% familiar with the equipment you use.  Even
Ray Charles can properly insert a CF card in the slot.  There's absolutely
nothing wrong with the CF format. The only malfunction in the equation is
trying to hammer a square peg in a round hole.  The CF card is indexed.  You
force it and you are going to ruin something.

> The relationship to SATA drives escapes me, but given some of your
> bizarre statements in the past ... no surprise.

This is just an inside joke that John and I have.

Rita
cjcampbell - 11 Aug 2006 01:43 GMT
> >> Having bent pins in a CF slot I can say from experience that I prefer
> >> SD to CF from a reliability viewpoint.  Straightening a pin in a CF
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> MBA/Finance and is the comptroller of a major city, it's hardly related
> to stupidity other than that of the people who designed the CF form factor.

My credentials as an accountant are even more impressive, plus I have
an IQ of 184. And yet, I still manage to do stupid things. Go figure.
Alan Browne - 11 Aug 2006 03:50 GMT
>>Since one can put CF cards in sideways, accidents are bound to happen.
>>And that is what happend to a friend of mine within an hour of buying
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> My credentials as an accountant are even more impressive, plus I have
> an IQ of 184. And yet, I still manage to do stupid things. Go figure.

My point exactly.  People do make mistakes, errors and have accidents.
Rita apparently is perfect in all ways.  Sounds like a few other lost
souls around here.

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ian - 11 Aug 2006 02:12 GMT
>>> Having bent pins in a CF slot I can say from experience that I prefer
>>> SD to CF from a reliability viewpoint.  Straightening a pin in a CF
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> MBA/Finance and is the comptroller of a major city, it's hardly related to
> stupidity other than that of the people who designed the CF form factor.

You can't make a device fool proof.  someone comes along and builds a better
fool.  As for being smart cos she spent a long time in school, such people
are often a fish out of water in a practical situation.  As she is
practically management it doesn't surprise me she's that stupid and
completely bereft of basic common sense.

> The relationship to SATA drives escapes me, but given some of your bizarre
> statements in the past ... no surprise.

if you've ever seen an sata connector in comparison to an ide one then she
is right.  It is harder to balls up the pins on an sata connection.
Alan Browne - 12 Aug 2006 01:43 GMT
> "Alan Browne" <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca> wrote in message

>>it's hardly related to
>>stupidity other than that of the people who designed the CF form factor.
>
> You can't make a device fool proof.  someone comes along and builds a better
> fool.

The point being, which you missed and Rita is blind to, is that
accidents do happen.  As to card form factor, it is entirely possible to
make a card that cannot be inserted wrong to the point of beniding pins.

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Rita Ä Berkowitz - 12 Aug 2006 13:27 GMT
> The point being, which you missed and Rita is blind to, is that
> accidents do happen.  As to card form factor, it is entirely possible
> to make a card that cannot be inserted wrong to the point of beniding
> pins.

This is nothing more than trying to shift blame from yourself by blaming the
manufacturer.  For the sake of your argument, let's say that the CF format
is poorly designed and rife with problems.  Any logical and reasonable
person claiming to be an adult with a moderate amount of comprehension
skills would familiarize themselves with the equipment and take the
necessary precautions to prevent a mishap.  If I mashed a CF card in my
camera backwards I would take out a full page add in the New York Times
professing my utter stupidity for doing so, I would.  There's nothing wrong
with doing stupid acts, it's when you try to cover up your own ineptness by
blaming others is where I have a problem with.

Rita
Alan Browne - 12 Aug 2006 14:59 GMT
>> The point being, which you missed and Rita is blind to, is that
>> accidents do happen.  As to card form factor, it is entirely possible
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> person claiming to be an adult with a moderate amount of comprehension
> skills would familiarize themselves with the equipment and take the

You're surely blessed to be so perfect as to never have accidently
broken or marred anything.
BobF@nospam.com - 12 Aug 2006 20:37 GMT
>>> The point being, which you missed and Rita is blind to, is that
>>> accidents do happen.  As to card form factor, it is entirely possible
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>You're surely blessed to be so perfect as to never have accidently
>broken or marred anything.

I don't like the design of the CF cards either. They should have had a plug in
extension of a different size (smaller for those with no imagination) so that
you could just grab the card and insert it. Offsetting the extension part or
offsetting a notch would insure it's proper insertion, and putting a bump on one
side would insure it not being inserted backwards.. That's what they do with
printed circuit cards. Having a simple square where you have to guess in the
dark is stupid.  People that don't complain have never had to change cards in
the dark on a camera attached to a telescope!!
Bill - 12 Aug 2006 21:31 GMT
>I don't like the design of the CF cards either. They should have had a plug in
>extension of a different size (smaller for those with no imagination) so that
>you could just grab the card and insert it. Offsetting the extension part or
>offsetting a notch would insure it's proper insertion, and putting a bump on one
>side would insure it not being inserted backwards..

Bob, have you looked closely at CF cards?

They have a ridge at the back so you can't put it in backwards.

They have side rails so you can't put it in upside down.

The only way to insert a CF card incorrectly is to put it in sideways,
and when you do that, it slops around so much that it's impossible NOT
to realize that it's inserted wrong.

> That's what they do with
>printed circuit cards. Having a simple square where you have to guess in the
>dark is stupid.  People that don't complain have never had to change cards in
>the dark on a camera attached to a telescope!!

First off, that's what red night vision lights are for - to minimize
vision issues (yes I have a telescope too).

Secondly, if you feel a CF card with your fingers, you can EASILY
determine which end is the back, lower side, and insert it correctly.
Ok, I admit it's harder with gloves, but then so is everything.

So that's why they put the ridge on it when they designed CF cards.

I know mistakes happen, but inserting a CF card and causing damage is
like trying to insert a 3.5" floppy disk the wrong way. It only goes in
properly one way, but you can force it in if you're really assertive.

And yes, I've seen a computer with a messed up floppy drive from someone
who tried to do exactly that. But they were extremely intoxicated at the
time, and probably couldn't count past 3 if they had all night to think
about it.

:-)
BobF@nospam.com - 13 Aug 2006 16:43 GMT
>>I don't like the design of the CF cards either. They should have had a plug in
>>extension of a different size (smaller for those with no imagination) so that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Bob, have you looked closely at CF cards?

Not all that close...

>They have a ridge at the back so you can't put it in backwards.

A very small ridge... they could have done better...

>They have side rails so you can't put it in upside down.

yes...

>The only way to insert a CF card incorrectly is to put it in sideways,
>and when you do that, it slops around so much that it's impossible NOT
>to realize that it's inserted wrong.

of course

>> That's what they do with
>>printed circuit cards. Having a simple square where you have to guess in the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>First off, that's what red night vision lights are for - to minimize
>vision issues (yes I have a telescope too).

I'll have to get one...

>Secondly, if you feel a CF card with your fingers, you can EASILY
>determine which end is the back, lower side, and insert it correctly.
>Ok, I admit it's harder with gloves, but then so is everything.

I don't have enough feeling in my fingertips to identify the sides... 40 years
of close technical work have somewhat damaged my nerves and fingers,,,

>So that's why they put the ridge on it when they designed CF cards.

They could have done better... I can't always feel the ridge either...

>I know mistakes happen, but inserting a CF card and causing damage is
>like trying to insert a 3.5" floppy disk the wrong way. It only goes in
>properly one way, but you can force it in if you're really assertive.

If I don't know the proper orientation of a device I don't even attempt to plug
it in. There is always the chance that it would fit or jam in the wrong way,
maybe in a camera with a sloppy or worn out connector.

Unlike all of the KNOW-IT-ALLS here, who I won't bother to answer, I happen to
be a trained technician, who's actual day job is not photography, but the repair
of railway level crossings, among other things.  The idea of attempting to plug
in some card without knowing the proper orientation would never occur to me -
that would be insanity.  In my profession that could result in jail time for me
and death for someone else.

I apply basic safety rules to all I do, not just the railway. I can't afford to
become complacent or make mistakes. Maybe that's your kids in the bus crossing
the tracks? - did I just try plugging in a card any way until it fit? hmmmm...

I tried playing with a CF card and my Sony and I did manage to get it partly
jammed without applying any force. I can imagine a card easily sliding into a
worn connector.

But I'll try to find the ridge from now on - since it's the only way with these
cards and my fingers!
Bill - 13 Aug 2006 17:54 GMT
>>Secondly, if you feel a CF card with your fingers, you can EASILY
>>determine which end is the back, lower side, and insert it correctly.
>>Ok, I admit it's harder with gloves, but then so is everything.
>
>I don't have enough feeling in my fingertips to identify the sides... 40 years
>of close technical work have somewhat damaged my nerves and fingers,,,

I never really thought about tactile feedback like that. I suppose they
could have done a better job with the ridge.

Of course, actually looking at the card helps too.

:-)

>But I'll try to find the ridge from now on - since it's the only way with these
>cards and my fingers!

You probably wouldn't like an SD card then...those things are worse.
They have a corner notch and that's about it.
mswlogo - 14 Aug 2006 19:17 GMT
Just my 2 cents.

AUTO ISO, who cares, my 5700 has that and I always shut it off. You
might as well put it in fully automatic mode while your're at it.

SD vs CF. There is a flaw in CF socket and that is dirt. It's very easy
to get a spec of dirt or sand in the socket of the card and then you
stick it in and your in trouble. I agree CF is faster. But SD is
catching up. I think the faster SD cards are faster than the camera can
feed it.

As far as cary over from your point and shoot, what are you going to
put in it, a 128 mb card !!! toss it. A 128 mb card is worth about
$5.00. I'd put no less than a 1GB card and they start at around $20.00
these days.
Bill - 14 Aug 2006 19:48 GMT
>AUTO ISO, who cares, my 5700 has that and I always shut it off. You
>might as well put it in fully automatic mode while your're at it.

Auto ISO in most P&S cameras is a waste because the high ISO noise
levels are terrible. They're getting better, but still not great.

But Auto ISO has its use, perhaps with cameras like the new D80 that can
adjust it within a specified limit. I think sports might benefit, but I
don't really care about it either.

>SD vs CF. There is a flaw in CF socket and that is dirt. It's very easy
>to get a spec of dirt or sand in the socket of the card and then you
>stick it in and your in trouble.

Same thing can happen to SD cards preventing proper contact with the
connectors inside the camera.

> I agree CF is faster. But SD is
>catching up. I think the faster SD cards are faster than the camera can
>feed it.

Perhaps, but in-camera speed is only an issue if you shoot lots of fast
frames continuously, otherwise the buffer takes up the slack. For most
of what I shoot, fast card speed isn't an issue in the camera.

The benefit of speed for me is the card to computer rate when
transferring the images to my computer. I have reasonably fast cards for
this purpose.
jeremyrh.geo@yahoo.com - 16 Aug 2006 14:53 GMT
> >AUTO ISO, who cares, my 5700 has that and I always shut it off. You
> >might as well put it in fully automatic mode while your're at it.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> adjust it within a specified limit. I think sports might benefit, but I
> don't really care about it either.

AutoISO only kicks in when the indicated shutter speed using the ISO
you requested (eg ISO 200) is slower than a value you select (eg 1/60th
sec). At that point the camera adjusts the ISO to give you your
requested shutter speed.

Mostly, it is never used. On the occasions when it comes into play, it
allows you to get a shot that is noisy, rather than blurry. Do you
prefer noise, or blur?

B;
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 16 Aug 2006 13:35 GMT
> As far as cary over from your point and shoot, what are you going to
> put in it, a 128 mb card !!! toss it. A 128 mb card is worth about
> $5.00. I'd put no less than a 1GB card and they start at around $20.00
> these days.

At 10MP, I would be using at least a 2GB card in it.  That should get you
close to 200 pictures per card [in RAW format].

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ian - 12 Aug 2006 23:39 GMT
>>>> The point being, which you missed and Rita is blind to, is that
>>>> accidents do happen.  As to card form factor, it is entirely possible
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> in
> the dark on a camera attached to a telescope!!

You can't put a CF card in upside down or back to front.  If you put it in
sideways then it doesn't touch the sides.  So you should know soemthing is
amiss.  If you thrust it in so hard as to bend the pins then you are a
fuckwit there is no way round this .
DoN. Nichols - 12 Aug 2006 23:45 GMT
According to  <BobF@nospam.com>:

    [ ... ]

> I don't like the design of the CF cards either. They should have had a plug in
> extension of a different size (smaller for those with no imagination) so that
> you could just grab the card and insert it.

    Hmm ... Let's look at a typical CF card.  Have *you* actually
    examined one and the socket into which it fits?

1)    The actual connector part is just as wide as the length of the
    card, so you would not get any real protection against sideways
    insertion.

>                                             Offsetting the extension part or
> offsetting a notch would insure it's proper insertion, and putting a bump on one
> side would insure it not being inserted backwards.. That's what they do with
> printed circuit cards. Having a simple square where you have to guess in the
> dark is stupid.  People that don't complain have never had to change cards in
> the dark on a camera attached to a telescope!!

2)    Have you ever actually *handled* a CF card?  There is a raised
    ridge along the back side only of the end opposite the
    connector.  This serves the function of your suggested bump, and
    gives an excellent tactile indication of both holding the edge
    opposite the connector and of having the card right-side towards
    you.  In my D70, the ridge side (back side of the card) should
    be towards you as you insert the card -- thus having the ridge
    fall under your thumb.

3)    The guide groove along one edge of the card is about 50% wider
    than that along the other edge, and these guides start some
    distance inside the socket but far enough back so you *can't*
    contact the pins before the wider tongue stops the card from
    sliding in -- assuming that you ignore the printed information
    on the camera, and the tactile information on the back of the
    card.

4)    The guide grooves both stop before reaching the back edge of the
    card, so you can't put it very far in backwards.

    So -- the *only* orientations in which you can put the card in
wrong are those with the connector pointed to a side of the slot, not
towards the pins in the camera.  Yes, you can put it in wrong in that
direction, and bend pins -- but this requires a total inattention to the
design of the card and its function.

    I could imagine a three-year old putting it in wrong, but not
anyone who understands its function -- unless totally inattentive.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

   
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Rita Ä Berkowitz - 13 Aug 2006 00:52 GMT
> I could imagine a three-year old putting it in wrong, but not
> anyone who understands its function -- unless totally inattentive.

ie: A stupid person.

Rita
BobF@nospam.com - 13 Aug 2006 16:56 GMT
>According to  <BobF@nospam.com>:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>    Hmm ... Let's look at a typical CF card.  Have *you* actually
>    examined one and the socket into which it fits?

No, I use the "Jedi mind trick" to levitate the cards into the cameras...

>1)    The actual connector part is just as wide as the length of the
>    card, so you would not get any real protection against sideways
>    insertion.

not my point, really...

>>                                             Offsetting the extension part or
>> offsetting a notch would insure it's proper insertion, and putting a bump on one
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>    connector.  This serves the function of your suggested bump, and
>    gives an excellent tactile indication of both holding the edge

I don't agree with your "excellent tactile indication". I can hardy feel it, and
that is not excellent. And I know someone who I would not trust to put a card
into my camera, he would jam it in any which way and then ask why it broke. Not
excellent if it can go into the camera any distance the wrong way.

>    opposite the connector and of having the card right-side towards
>    you.  In my D70, the ridge side (back side of the card) should
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>    contact the pins before the wider tongue stops the card from
>    sliding in --

Yes, and will it jam in there?

>           assuming that you ignore the printed information
>    on the camera, and the tactile information on the back of the
>    card.

I also said you can't see in the dark, so you can't read much either...

>4)    The guide grooves both stop before reaching the back edge of the
>    card, so you can't put it very far in backwards.

Yes, and will it jam in there? Hardy a positive thing.

>    So -- the *only* orientations in which you can put the card in
>wrong are those with the connector pointed to a side of the slot, not
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>    I could imagine a three-year old putting it in wrong, but not
>anyone who understands its function -- unless totally inattentive.

Then you need more imagination.

>    Enjoy,
>        DoN.
G.T. - 14 Aug 2006 19:23 GMT
>>>>The point being, which you missed and Rita is blind to, is that
>>>>accidents do happen.  As to card form factor, it is entirely possible
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> dark is stupid.  People that don't complain have never had to change cards in
> the dark on a camera attached to a telescope!!

I do it all the time and can easily do it blindfolded.

Greg

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Alan Browne - 15 Aug 2006 02:52 GMT
> I do it all the time and can easily do it blindfolded.

The point isn't can it be done, but whether an accident is likely or
possible.  With CF it is.  Having said that, I have CF and that's fine
with me.  It's a reasonable size (smaller than that has no inhernet
advantages).  I don't do things blind when I can use my eyes.

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BobF@nospam.com - 15 Aug 2006 23:07 GMT
>>>>>The point being, which you missed and Rita is blind to, is that
>>>>>accidents do happen.  As to card form factor, it is entirely possible
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>I do it all the time and can easily do it blindfolded.

Oh then you get a cookie!  Good boy!!
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 13 Aug 2006 00:52 GMT
>> This is nothing more than trying to shift blame from yourself by
>> blaming the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> You're surely blessed to be so perfect as to never have accidently
> broken or marred anything.

LOL!  Thank you for the compliment of my utter perfection.  Seriously, I
never claimed to have not broken or marred anything.  When I did I put the
blame where it squarely belongs, on me.  That's the difference between you
and I.  I can admit when I'm wrong.

Rita
G.T. - 11 Aug 2006 03:59 GMT
> >> Having bent pins in a CF slot I can say from experience that I prefer
> >> SD to CF from a reliability viewpoint.  Straightening a pin in a CF
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> MBA/Finance and is the comptroller of a major city, it's hardly related
> to stupidity other than that of the people who designed the CF form factor.

I don't know how that happens because I'm pretty hamfisted and have never
come close to doing that on my Rebel or Rebel XT.

Greg
Bill - 11 Aug 2006 08:05 GMT
>> Since one can put CF cards in sideways, accidents are bound to happen.
>
>I don't know how that happens because I'm pretty hamfisted and have never
>come close to doing that on my Rebel or Rebel XT.

1 - You can't insert a CF card backwards because of the edge lip.

2 - You can't insert a CF card upside down because of the side rails.

3 - You CAN insert a CF card in sideways, but it's obviously way too
loose and doesn't seat properly nor stay in the slot.

Numbers 1 and 2 can be done if you use a small hammer or jam it in like
you're trying to poke the center of the earth.

Number 3...well...if you think it fits, then SD cards might be a good
idea.

:-)
ian - 11 Aug 2006 17:01 GMT
>>> Since one can put CF cards in sideways, accidents are bound to happen.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Number 3...well...if you think it fits, then SD cards might be a good
> idea.

That smart yet that stupid and she's a city controller.  Why am i not
surprised?  People like that often end up in high paying public sector jobs,
mainly cos the private sector wouldn't accept that kind of incompetence.
Alan Browne - 12 Aug 2006 01:52 GMT
> That smart yet that stupid and she's a city controller.  Why am i not
> surprised?  People like that often end up in high paying public sector jobs,
> mainly cos the private sector wouldn't accept that kind of incompetence.

You are a total a.s if you don't believe that accidents happen to people
for a variety of reasons, none of them related to incompetence or
stupidy.  But, perhaps you're covering something up.

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Alan Browne - 12 Aug 2006 01:50 GMT
>>>>Having bent pins in a CF slot I can say from experience that I prefer
>>>>SD to CF from a reliability viewpoint.  Straightening a pin in a CF
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I don't know how that happens because I'm pretty hamfisted and have never
> come close to doing that on my Rebel or Rebel XT.

A moment's inattention is all that it takes.

If pilots can be blamed (usually correctly) for accidents while being
above average in intelligence, system management and plain motor skills
as well as among the most highly and recurrently trained professionals,
breaking bits of photo gear is hardly noteworthy.

I have a Hasselblad 500 C/M.  A reasonably robust piece of gear, that if
used correcty should not break.  Yet people manage to somehow get the
shutter on the lens uncocked with the body cocked (lens cannot be
removed) requiring a bit of a manoeuvre to recock the lens without
scratching the rear element ... hasn't happened to me ... but is likely
a matter of time or misfortune.    I know how to fix the situation, so
I'm not too worried, but I'd rather it didn't occur at all.

That Rita accuses people of being 'stupid' for common accidents speaks
of somebody who is either remarkably proficient in all areas of life,
perfectly lucky or hiding the truth about herself.

Cheers,
Alan.

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Bill - 12 Aug 2006 05:32 GMT
>>>Since one can put CF cards in sideways, accidents are bound to happen.
>>>And that is what happend to a friend of mine within an hour of buying
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>as well as among the most highly and recurrently trained professionals,
>breaking bits of photo gear is hardly noteworthy.

That makes sense! Since pilots are usually drunk when they make
mistakes, the camera operator was probably drunk too, or maybe stoned?

:-)
Alan Browne - 12 Aug 2006 15:22 GMT
>>If pilots can be blamed (usually correctly) for accidents while being
>>above average in intelligence, system management and plain motor skills
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> That makes sense! Since pilots are usually drunk when they make
> mistakes, the camera operator was probably drunk too, or maybe stoned?

A few years ago a Miami security checkpoin noted that the pilots were
innebriated.  The pilots were actually taxiing the aircraft when
recalled to the gate.  Arrested.  De-licenced.  Fired.  Convicted.
Fined.  Jailed.  They actually appealed their dismissal from the company
under union rules!  Cheeky.

Pilots face enormous complexity, are trained for it, yet remain human
and they do indeed make mistakes (usually a chain of mistakes leads to
an accident, not a single mistake ... otherwise airplanes would be
falling out of the sky every minute).

Stupid?  Yes.  The Air France 340 at Toronto last year, to me, was a
clear case of "go around".  If you don't have your wheels on the runway
(esp. one saturated in water) soon after the TD lines, you go around.
Period.   (The final report is completed but not approved for release.).
 After a 7 or 8 hour flight (add 60-90 minutes of pre-flight work),
fatigue sets in, a plain "want" to get to the hotel and rest...

On the other hand, there is the Midway accident where the aircraft
overran the runway, tragically killing a young boy in a parked car.  In
that case both pilots were leaning to landing at a different airport due
to reported poor braking action.  Per the FAA approved company
procedure, however, the sum of the stopping distance with reported
conditions and safety reserve turned out to be within the runway length
so they committed.  As a result of the accident, the reserve distance
rules have been changed.  No stupidity anywhere on this one, just
another lesson learned in aviation safety.  And two pilots who will
henceforth listen to their inner doubts more than the procedure book.

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Rita Ä Berkowitz - 12 Aug 2006 13:24 GMT
> That Rita accuses people of being 'stupid' for common accidents speaks
> of somebody who is either remarkably proficient in all areas of life,
> perfectly lucky or hiding the truth about herself.

No, I just learned early in life that taking an extra split second to
*THINK* about what you are doing before pulling the trigger eliminates a lot
of accidents, grief, and hardships.  Sure sh.t happens, but at least I can
say I made every human effort to avoid the problem in the first place.
Carelessness does equal stupidity.

Rita
Alan Browne - 12 Aug 2006 15:03 GMT
>> That Rita accuses people of being 'stupid' for common accidents speaks
>> of somebody who is either remarkably proficient in all areas of life,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> say I made every human effort to avoid the problem in the first place.
> Carelessness does equal stupidity.

Since you have zero knowledge of how the accident occured you cannot
ascribe it to carelessness, neglect or stupidity.

As you say, "sh.t happens", so why is it that when sh.t happens to
somebody else is it stupidity?  When it happens to you is it kismet? bad
luck?  evil gremlins?  a sinsiter plot?
ian - 12 Aug 2006 23:41 GMT
>>> That Rita accuses people of being 'stupid' for common accidents speaks
>>> of somebody who is either remarkably proficient in all areas of life,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> somebody else is it stupidity?  When it happens to you is it kismet? bad
> luck?  evil gremlins?  a sinsiter plot?

Bad runway landing = sh.t happens, person with letters after their name
still can't insert a CF card properly = fuckwit of the highest order.
Bill - 13 Aug 2006 00:22 GMT
>> As you say, "sh.t happens", so why is it that when sh.t happens to
>> somebody else is it stupidity?  When it happens to you is it kismet? bad
>> luck?  evil gremlins?  a sinsiter plot?
>
>Bad runway landing = sh.t happens, person with letters after their name
>still can't insert a CF card properly = fuckwit of the highest order.

Hahahaha...dang that's funny...because I have letters after my name
(when the girlfriend is introducing me to someone she admires).

:-/
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 13 Aug 2006 00:52 GMT
>> No, I just learned early in life that taking an extra split second to
>> *THINK* about what you are doing before pulling the trigger
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Since you have zero knowledge of how the accident occured you cannot
> ascribe it to carelessness, neglect or stupidity.

I have all the facts needed to attribute this to utter stupidity.  If I did
it I would say that I'm just as stupid.

> As you say, "sh.t happens", so why is it that when sh.t happens to
> somebody else is it stupidity?  When it happens to you is it kismet?
> bad luck?  evil gremlins?  a sinsiter plot?

Whoa!  Jasper!  Find one post in the last 10-years where I blamed someone
else for something I caused?  A hint.  You can't since I never did.  Sure, I
done some stupid things in  my life and I recognized it as such and admitted
to myself and others that I did such.

Rita
Alan Browne - 13 Aug 2006 13:35 GMT
> I have all the facts needed to attribute this to utter stupidity.  If I did
> it I would say that I'm just as stupid.

What a laugh.  Something happens.  You weren't there.  You don't know
the circumstances.  You don't know the sequence of events.  You don't
know squat (that's a specific as well as general observation).  Yet you
can diagnose somebody as stupid.

Amazing.  You are really the most superior person I've ever heard from.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 13 Aug 2006 14:29 GMT
>> I have all the facts needed to attribute this to utter stupidity. If I
>> did it I would say that I'm just as stupid.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> know squat (that's a specific as well as general observation).  Yet
> you can diagnose somebody as stupid.

Why do I need to be there?  The simple facts are someone broke every
terrestrial and celestial boundary of stupidity by destroying their CF slot
by carelessly inserting the card in the wrong way.  What's even more amazing
is you adamantly try tearing down every scientific and institutionally
accepted criterion for logic to justify this sheer act of stupidity

> Amazing.  You are really the most superior person I've ever heard
> from.

I'm not bragging, but it wasn't me that inserted a CF card the wrong way.

Rita
Alan Browne - 13 Aug 2006 14:38 GMT
>>> I have all the facts needed to attribute this to utter stupidity. If I
>>> did it I would say that I'm just as stupid.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> is you adamantly try tearing down every scientific and institutionally
> accepted criterion for logic to justify this sheer act of stupidity

Pedal hard Rita.  And look up the meaning of accident.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 13 Aug 2006 14:51 GMT
>> Why do I need to be there?  The simple facts are someone broke every
>> terrestrial and celestial boundary of stupidity by destroying their
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Pedal hard Rita.  And look up the meaning of accident.

Here ya go!

: an unexpected usually sudden event that occurs without intent or volition
although sometimes through carelessness, unawareness, ignorance, or a
combination of causes and that produces an unfortunate result (as an injury)
for which the affected party may be entitled to relief under the law or to
compensation under an insurance policy

That said, 99.99999% of all accidents are caused by human stupidity.  The
other 0.00001% are simply acts of God.

Rita
Alan Browne - 13 Aug 2006 16:47 GMT
>> Pedal hard Rita.  And look up the meaning of accident.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> That said, 99.99999% of all accidents are caused by human stupidity.  The
> other 0.00001% are simply acts of God.

There you go again.  Quote a definition that fails to support your
assertion and then post a contrary (not to mention unfounded,
unsupported and wildly exagerated) statistic.  Deja vu for Rita.
colin@twoblues.com - 13 Aug 2006 17:01 GMT
>>> Why do I need to be there?  The simple facts are someone broke every
>>> terrestrial and celestial boundary of stupidity by destroying their
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>Rita

Oh come on!   God is MUCH stupider than that!
sferguso@telus.net - 09 Aug 2006 20:56 GMT
>> >> http://www.nikon.com.my/pagearticle.php?pageid=91
>
>Aside from auto ISO, more megapixels (definitely overdue!) and a bigger
>LCD screen, i"m a bit...underwhelmed. SD card is certainly a mistake.

Why is the SD  card a mistake.....?  When moving up from a PS camera
to a D50 my SD cards came with me, When I move up to a better camera I
can once again bring them along.  Whats the  deal with people wanting
an old format like CF, still using Windows 3.11? dos? scsi? 110 film?
brownie camera?

Sound like someones on the wrong bandwagon.

>People were complaining the 30D was a poor upgrade on the 20D...at
>least the 30D didn't _downgrade_ anything (re: SD card).
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>touch this with a 10" pole. The Sony Alpha is looking better and better
>as a Canon alternative.
Todd H. - 09 Aug 2006 21:23 GMT
> >> >> http://www.nikon.com.my/pagearticle.php?pageid=91
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Sound like someones on the wrong bandwagon.

When moving up from a PS camera (Canon G2) to my EOS 300D, my CF cards
came with me.  And there was much rejoicing.  And if I bought the
latest 350D or 30D today, I'd still be able to use my memory
investment.  No, I wouldn't be real happy with Canon changing the
prosumer level dSLR's to SD either because I'd have to replace all my
cards or deal with 2 formats.

CF is still very much alive out there.

SD isn't any inherently better, in some cases it's worse in fact, so
there's no reason to fault someone for not being happy with a storage
format switch that doesn't improve anything.  

Finally, to explode your analogy, Windows 3.1 -> Windows NT/2000 at
least improved stability and functionality.  The move from CF->SD
doesn't add one iota of functionality or performance.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.  
http://www.toddh.net/
sferguso@telus.net - 09 Aug 2006 22:06 GMT
>> >> >> http://www.nikon.com.my/pagearticle.php?pageid=91
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>Best Regards,
My point is that for all us low end point and shooters movving to
dslrs' using an SD card is GREAT, it is not a mistake to make on a
lower end camera. Now if this was a new PRO model I can see the high
end users upset that their CF cards wond work......wwf was a bad
example, sorry ;)
Todd H. - 09 Aug 2006 22:34 GMT
> My point is that for all us low end point and shooters movving to
> dslrs' using an SD card is GREAT, it is not a mistake to make on a
> lower end camera. Now if this was a new PRO model I can see the high
> end users upset that their CF cards wond work......wwf was a bad
> example, sorry ;)

And I think the point of those who think "SD on the D80 is crap" would
say that it's because the D70 which it replaces...was a CF based
camera, and it's a mistake for Nikon to have changed storage formats
in a successor placed in the prosumer dSLR line.  That's their point.

Whatever the cheapo point and shoots were using needn't be a datapoint
in the argument.

--
Todd H.  
http://www.toddh.net/
David J Taylor - 10 Aug 2006 07:14 GMT
>> My point is that for all us low end point and shooters movving to
>> dslrs' using an SD card is GREAT, it is not a mistake to make on a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Wha