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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2005

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Nikon D70 + Focus Points + Lens

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Anirudh - 20 Feb 2005 03:22 GMT
Hi All,
Learning Photography so some basic questions!

First Question is on Focus Point. I shoot a snap in two ways.

1. Default is Closest Subject and lets say left focus point is
selected. But I do not want left focus point as the main subject. So I
get the center focus point to the closest subject (where earlier left
focus point was), click the shutter half way and keeping it that way i
take it subject i want to click and shoot.

2. I use AF-S mode with "Single Area" or "Dynamic Area" select the
subject I want and shoot.

In above two ways what will be the difference in output. I could not
see any and found the second way to click a little time consuming
relatively.

Second Question is on Lenses.
I read lens with focal length 35mm or less is Wide Angle and anything
above 50mm is telephoto.

With D70 kit comes the following lend "AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm
f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED lens"
Does that mean when zoom is at 18mm it is acting as wide angle and when
70mm it is not a telephoto. (I have seen once through wide angle lens
and at 18mm the output was positively not same as through the wide
angle i had seen)

++Tx
Anirudh

PS: In C++ lingo "++Tx", translates to Thanks in Advance :-)
Sheldon - 20 Feb 2005 18:07 GMT
> Hi All,
> Learning Photography so some basic questions!
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> see any and found the second way to click a little time consuming
> relatively.

Then use the first method.  A lot of photography is experimenting, and using
what works best for you and a given situation.  I've changed the settings on
my camera numerous times based on things I've read, only to find something
someone else does doesn't work for me.  You don't have to pay for film or
processing, so experiment away.

> Second Question is on Lenses.
> I read lens with focal length 35mm or less is Wide Angle and anything
> above 50mm is telephoto.

This is subjective and based on an actual 35mm camera using film.  Since a
50mm lens is considered "normal," than anything below that would be
considered a wide angle, and anything above a telephoto.

> With D70 kit comes the following lend "AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm
> f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED lens"
> Does that mean when zoom is at 18mm it is acting as wide angle and when
> 70mm it is not a telephoto. (I have seen once through wide angle lens
> and at 18mm the output was positively not same as through the wide
> angle i had seen)

Since the image sensor on your D70 is smaller than the film area on a
regular 35mm camera, you are only getting a portion of what the lens sees,
therefore you have to apply a multiplication factor of about 1.5 to any lens
you put on the camera.  On a 35mm camera that 18mm lens would be a fisheye,
but on your D70 it's the equavalent of a 27mm lens, which by all standards
is a wide-angle lens.  At 70mm, using that same formula, you will have the
equivalent of a 105, which is definitely a mild telephoto.

As you've noted, on a 35mm camera 50mm is considered a "normal" lens by
most.  But, on your D70 it becomes the equivalent of a 75mm lens, again, a
very mild telephoto.

Keep in mind that all this is very subjective and based on your needs.
After all, what is normal?  If you shot mostly sports, a 300mm lens, while
definitely a telephoto, might be "normal" for you.

A "zoom" lens is merely one lens that can function as many.  You give up
just a bit of quality when you use most zoom lenses, but the ability to have
all those lenses in one is very handy indeed.  Also, the lens that comes in
the D70 Kit gets very good reviews all around, and should produce excellent
images for most applications.  You may want to pick up a second zoom to pick
up where the kit lens leaves off, and also a macro/micro lens for stunning
close-ups.  The beauty of having a camera that you can change lenses on is
changing lenses. :-)

Maybe somebody else can explain it better, but hope this helps.
Anirudh - 21 Feb 2005 05:48 GMT
I think I did not put the first question correctly.
What I meant in the first question what is the difference between the
outputs of these two shots. Being a novice I cannot see any difference
but what kind of difference would a professional see in these two
snaps.

About the second question. Well great I got quite a few things clear.
Let me try to put them down again as summary so i may ask another
question.

1. Most definitions of "Wide Angle" & "Telephoto" are with respect to
35mm films that are used in (can i use the word "analog") cameras.
2. Sensor of D70 is smaller and there is multiplication factor or 1.5
at the given zoom setting. So actual zoom is 18*1.5 ~ 70*1.5 or 27mm ~
105mm
3. With above calculations and seeing definition "<35mm as Wide Angle"
and ">50mm as Telephoto". The default D70 lens kit acts as a mild wide
angle as well as mild telephoto

I hope this is what you wanted to explain!!!
One question that arises is ealier you defined camera by film size
(which happens to be same as sensor size) "saying it a 35mm camera and
so on". Now for D70  or 300D what would be definition be or it is
solely dependent on the lens attached and u define it in terms of range
and not a pivotal point (like 35mm)?

Tx
Anirudh
DoN. Nichols - 21 Feb 2005 06:17 GMT
>I think I did not put the first question correctly.
>What I meant in the first question what is the difference between the
>outputs of these two shots. Being a novice I cannot see any difference
>but what kind of difference would a professional see in these two
>snaps.

    Probably nothing, if you truly focused on the same object both
times.  They are simply two different ways to accomplish the same thing.
Normally, I would go by the point to subject which I want in sharp focus
and let it autofocus at half depression of the shutter relase, and then
shift for desired framing.  However, If I had the camera on a tripod,
or were in a situation where the actual framing was likely to remain
fairly constant for a series of shots, and the subject of prime interest
was away from the center of the frame all of the time, I would probably
shift the focus area to cover that, so I would not have to constantly
re-frame.  (An example might be two people in a debate, or a tennis
game.  Or even two cats in a face-off.)

    The D70 simply offers you multiple ways to accomplish most
tasks, so you can select the one which best fits the situation and your
working habits.

>About the second question. Well great I got quite a few things clear.
>Let me try to put them down again as summary so i may ask another
>question.
>
>1. Most definitions of "Wide Angle" & "Telephoto" are with respect to
>35mm films that are used in (can i use the word "analog") cameras.

    Yes.  It will probably be some time before the language adjusts
to the change in the hardware. :-)

>2. Sensor of D70 is smaller and there is multiplication factor or 1.5
>at the given zoom setting. So actual zoom is 18*1.5 ~ 70*1.5 or 27mm ~
>105mm

    The field of coverage of that lens on the D70 is equivalent to
lenses covering the range 27mm to 105mm on a full frame camera.  Some
other features, such as apparent depth of field, are functions of many
things, including the *actual* focal length, and the magnification to get
the final print.

>3. With above calculations and seeing definition "<35mm as Wide Angle"
>and ">50mm as Telephoto". The default D70 lens kit acts as a mild wide
>angle as well as mild telephoto

    Yes.

>I hope this is what you wanted to explain!!!
>One question that arises is ealier you defined camera by film size
>(which happens to be same as sensor size) "saying it a 35mm camera and
>so on".

    The term "35mm camera" refers to a dimension which does not even
*exist* on the D70.  It is the width of the film such a camera uses,
including the sprocket holes.  The actual area of film exposed in a
*full frame* 35mm camera is 24x36mm.  In a half-frame 35mm camera (same
size film, but a smaller image), the image area is 24x18mm (image is now
taller than it is wide with the camrea body horizontal).  The "wide
angle" and "telephoto" definitions are for a full-frame 35mm camera, not
for a half-frame one.

>        Now for D70  or 300D what would be definition be or it is
>solely dependent on the lens attached and u define it in terms of range
>and not a pivotal point (like 35mm)?

    You mean the wide angle or telephoto definition?  It is a
function of the size of the image (the sensor in the digital cameras, or
the exposed area of the film in a film camera), and the actual focal
length of the lens.  A lens which would be a "normal" on the D70 would
be a mild telephoto on a half-frame 35mm camera, and a mild wide angle
on a full-frame 35mm camera.

    And the actual definition is a function of the visual effect of
an 8x10" print viewed at a standard distance.  A "normal" lens will give
a perspective like viewing a scene through an 8x10" window at the same
distance.

    You select wide angle or telephoto lenses either to allow you to
get what you want to photograph into the frame at a distance which you
can realistically achieve (e.g. a wide angle may be needed to cover a
given scene indoors, when you cannot back through a wall to get more
coverage), or a telephoto may be needed because there is a gap between
you and what you are photographing (e.g. from one rooftop to another)
and you cannot get closer to what you want to photography.

    *Or* -- you may select them because of the different perspective
they give to the image.  Longer telephotos tend to collapse apparent
distance, while wider wide angles tend to exaggerate it -- such as a
photograph of a face in which the nose may predominate.

    Take your lens and camera and start taking photos, and note the
effects.  Pick some scene outdoors, and back away to the maximum
distance at which you can fill the frame using the lens zoomed to the
maximum.  Take that photo.  It does not matter whether it is anything
particularly interesting in its own right, as it will cost you
effectively nothing, unlike with film.  Now, zoom to as wide a setting
as you can, and walk forward until you get the same scene filling the
frame.  Take that photograph as well.

    Now -- go home, and either put them on the screen, side by side,
or print them both to the same size.  Spend some time studying the, and
note how they differ.  Pay attention to the objects in the background.
Pay attention to things near the center of the frame.  *See* what the
choice of focal length does to the image.  Even longer or wider lenses
do this even more, but you have enough to get an idea what it does.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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Anirudh - 21 Feb 2005 10:02 GMT
I wrote a long reply hours back and it has vanished but will try again
....

I think my first question did not reach correctly. What I meant was
what is the technical difference between the two snaps. For me the
result is same but to a professional would he see some difference
beween the snaps?

Tx sheldon for the long second answer . Let me put it into points to
check if i have got what u r saying right and ask another question on
tht
1.  "Wide Angle < 35mm" and "Telephoto > 50mm" terms come from film
based photography where the sensor size and film size is usually 35mm.
2. In D70 since sensor is smaller a multiplication factor of 1.5 is
used.  So the default lens transfroms from 27mm (18*1.5) which is wide
angle to 105 mm (70*1.5) which is mild telephoto with respect to a 35mm
film based camera.

Have I got all the points u wanted to convey?

The question is "The term 35mm lens is historically for film based
cameras."  Do dSLRs have similar terms or they vary with the lens used
and the current focal length set?

Tx
Anirudh
Sheldon - 21 Feb 2005 16:39 GMT
> The question is "The term 35mm lens is historically for film based
> cameras."  Do dSLRs have similar terms or they vary with the lens used
> and the current focal length set?
>
> Tx
> Anirudh

I think what's going on here is that many photographers need something to
compare the new digital equipment to, especially DSLR cameras.  So, the
comparisons get made to a 35mm camera.  I know, without even seeing it, what
I will see if I put a 50mm lens on a 35mm film camera.  So, when I read that
a 50mm lens will appear to be a 75mm lens on a D70, I have a pretty good
idea of what I will get without even trying it, due to prior experience.

I'm sure this will all change over time as digital replaces film.  It's a
lot like where many of today's kids only know that music comes on CD's.
Vinyl or tape is very old history to them.

Still, I predict that film will still have a place, especially in the art
world, and that the goal of many digital camera manufacturers is to make an
image sensor the same size as a 35mm frame.  This would eliminate much of
the confusion over focal length, and bring things back to a "standard."

Now, this may or may not happen, but I think it will.  The next step will be
"medium format" digital, and so on and so on.  Remember, if you are still
using film, you have to make these focal length conversion if you use large
or medium format cameras.  A 50mm lens will not be the same on a 35mm, as
compared to a 2 1/4, as compared to a 4x5, as compared to an 8x10 format
camera.  As the image surface gets larger the lens gets "wider," by
comparison.  So, it just makes sense that if the image gets smaller, like
the example of the half-frame camera, the lens would appear to be longer.

Again, just go out and have fun.  Take a lot of photos and compare them to
see what you get.  Take portraits with the camera set at wide angle and with
the camera set at telephoto.  See what you get.  There are some specific
rules in photography, but if you want to get artsy, rules are meant to be
broken.
DoN. Nichols - 21 Feb 2005 20:55 GMT
>I wrote a long reply hours back and it has vanished but will try again

    Actually -- it is still there.  If you read it once, it would be
marked as already read, and not normally presented to you a second time,
depending on just how your newsreader program is set up.

    And I typed a long reply to that one, so check back.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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paul - 21 Feb 2005 17:55 GMT
> First Question is on Focus Point. I shoot a snap in two ways.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> see any and found the second way to click a little time consuming
> relatively.

If you hold the shutter down and re-frame, I believe the default setting
also locks the exposure so I changed my setup to where only the AE/AF
lock button locks exposure and I use single area focus.
Sheldon - 21 Feb 2005 21:55 GMT
> > First Question is on Focus Point. I shoot a snap in two ways.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> also locks the exposure so I changed my setup to where only the AE/AF
> lock button locks exposure and I use single area focus.

That's what some experts recommend.  It's the exposure you want to lock
down, not necessarily the focus, too.
Ken Tough - 23 Feb 2005 20:11 GMT
>> If you hold the shutter down and re-frame, I believe the default setting
>> also locks the exposure so I changed my setup to where only the AE/AF
>> lock button locks exposure and I use single area focus.

>That's what some experts recommend.  It's the exposure you want to lock
>down, not necessarily the focus, too.

When would you want to set the exposure for a part of the image
that you didn't want (also) in focus?   It's hard for me to imagine
images where you want exposure set on one thing, and focus set on
another.

Signature

Ken Tough

Alan Browne - 23 Feb 2005 21:12 GMT
>>That's what some experts recommend.  It's the exposure you want to lock
>>down, not necessarily the focus, too.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> images where you want exposure set on one thing, and focus set on
> another.

It is not neccesarilly based on the subject in focus.  For example, the subject
is not neccesarilly mid tone or you want to emphasize the light in a different
way than the light on the subject in focus.  Shoot a wedding based on the meter
without compensation and you will get wildly varrying results.  White is about
two stops too bright; black about 2-3 stops too dim (for the meter).  Result is
underexposure and overexposure respectively.

On Minolta Maxxum's, there are seperate actions to lock exposure and focus
seperately.

[OT] Slide film esp. demands attention to exposure that is not
subject-in-focus-based (most of the time).

Cheers,
Alan

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Doug Payne - 23 Feb 2005 21:28 GMT
> On Minolta Maxxum's, there are seperate actions to lock exposure and
> focus seperately.

As there is on most cameras; it's called Manual Exposure mode.
Alan Browne - 23 Feb 2005 23:15 GMT
>> On Minolta Maxxum's, there are seperate actions to lock exposure and
>> focus seperately.
>
> As there is on most cameras; it's called Manual Exposure mode.

That's how I normally shoot.

But I what I meant is that there is the ubiquitous AF lock with the shutter
depressed half way, and there is a seperate button (AEL) to hold an exposure
setting while in "S" or "A" modes.

So, for example (slide film), set aperture priority, set aperture, set the Exp
Comp to +2, point the spot meter at a highlight, hold the AEL, compose, focus
and shoot.

I believe some other manufacturer(s) lock both focus and exposure settings on
the half-depressed shutter.  This seems very wrong to me.

Cheers,
Alan

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Ben Rosengart - 24 Feb 2005 22:25 GMT
> I believe some other manufacturer(s) lock both focus and exposure settings on
> the half-depressed shutter.  This seems very wrong to me.

Olympus's C-8080WZ works this way.

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tomM - 24 Feb 2005 23:46 GMT
>...
> I believe some other manufacturer(s) lock both focus and exposure settings on
> the half-depressed shutter.  This seems very wrong to me.
>
> Cheers,
> Alan

Alan,
The Minolta AF cameras with 14-segment metering do lock both AF and
exposure with 1/2 pressed shutter when in 14-seg metering mode.  In CW
or spot they do not lock exposure unless the AE lock is pressed.  I
don't know if the exposure locking in 14-seg can be disabled by a
custom function in the 9.

Tom
Alan Browne - 25 Feb 2005 15:22 GMT
>>...
>>I believe some other manufacturer(s) lock both focus and exposure
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> The Minolta AF cameras with 14-segment metering do lock both AF and
> exposure with 1/2 pressed shutter when in 14-seg metering mode.  In CW

They do not in the 7xi, 9 and 5.  To lock exposure requires one depress the AEL
button and hold it (or via a custom function 'toggle' it on and off), regardless
of metering mode.  If you're in that metering mode (or others), hold the shutter
half down in A or S (or P for that matter) and swing around, the exp. setting
will change as you swing through changing light in the scene.

I'm pretty sure that other Maxxums/Dyanx' are the same, as Minolta have been
consistent over time with such things.

Cheers,
Alan

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tomM - 26 Feb 2005 03:11 GMT
> >>...
> >>I believe some other manufacturer(s) lock both focus and exposure
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Cheers,
> Alan

Alan,
I checked on a few cameras (my Maxxum XTsi, 700si, and 7, and in the
manual of the 5 and 9)

I couldn't find any thing in the manual of the 9, and since I don't
have the camera, I couldn't check.

But with the XTsi (which has only 14-seg and spot metering, except in
manual focus when 14-seg changes to CW according to Minolta USA rep),
the following happens:  AF, 1/2 press shutter, allow the AF to lock on
a subject, and then recompose -- Exposure does not change.

The scene I used was a room with a single light.  Exposure if I locked
focus in dark area was 1/2s @ f/4.  The exposure if I locked focus on
the light was 1/350 @f11.  If I locked on one and recomposed, the
exposure didn't change.

If the camera was in manual focus mode, the exposure changes as I
recompose.  If I half press the shutter, but keep the camera moving so
AF stays in continuous AF mode, the exposure changes as I recompose.

With the 700si: The same thing happens (exposure locks when AF locks
with 1/2 press shutter in 14-seg mode).  With the 700si, I can also set
metering modes to either spot or CW.  In those modes and in all modes
with MF, the exposure changes as I recompose.

The 7 does the same in AF-S or AF-A when the camera locks focus using
the shutter button.  The 7's manual clearly states this on page 29:
"Focus lock "(using the shutter button) "also locks the exposure
settings when 14 segment honeycomb-pattern metering is selected".  If I
set continuous AF on the 7, the exposure will change as I move the
camera around.

The 5's manual implies that this happens because they discribe the AF
and recompose method (which would require exposure be determined by the
locked subject) and states on page 34:  "Focus lock also sets the
exposure settings." although this is not as clearly stated as it is in
the 7 manual.  I don't have a 5 so I can't confirm.

However, if a person uses manual focus then the exposure will change if
the scene is recomposed (except in the 7).

Do you see a difference in your 9 if you use AF, allow focus to lock,
and then recompose?

Tom
Alan Browne - 26 Feb 2005 20:03 GMT
> Alan,
> I checked on a few cameras (my Maxxum XTsi, 700si, and 7, and in the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> the light was 1/350 @f11.  If I locked on one and recomposed, the
> exposure didn't change.

I'll take your word for it.  But it seems very counter to the Maxxum philosophy
in this regard.  I did pretty much the same exercise as you with the 7xi and the
9 before replying and I remember demonstrating this to my SO when she got the
Max 5 last year.

> If the camera was in manual focus mode, the exposure changes as I
> recompose.  If I half press the shutter, but keep the camera moving so
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> set continuous AF on the 7, the exposure will change as I move the
> camera around.

Definitely not on the Max 9/7xi.

> The 5's manual implies that this happens because they discribe the AF
> and recompose method (which would require exposure be determined by the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Do you see a difference in your 9 if you use AF, allow focus to lock,
> and then recompose?

It works as I state above regardless of AF/MF (I'm mostly in MF but I checked
this in both modes prior to my reply in the other post.)

I'm sorry if I was so firm about it.  It just seems like the right thing to do
and Minolta are pretty consistent in their exposure philosophy, that I'm
surprised other models don't follow this paradigm.

Cheers,
Alan

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Anirudh - 22 Feb 2005 09:51 GMT
I guess you mean to say if focus is shifted with shutter half way and
these two subjects require different exposures then exposure would not
be correct (with default settings).
In such a case the second method i.e. "I use AF-S mode with "Single
Area" or "Dynamic Area" select the subject I want and shoot. " would be
better bet.
Ronnie Sellar - 22 Feb 2005 10:48 GMT
> > First Question is on Focus Point. I shoot a snap in two ways.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> also locks the exposure so I changed my setup to where only the AE/AF
> lock button locks exposure and I use single area focus.

No the default setting only locks the focus.  You have to change custom
setting 16 to get it to lock the exposure as well.  Use the AE-L, AF_l
button to lock exposure if you want that.

Signature

Ronnie Sellar

paul - 22 Feb 2005 16:02 GMT
>>>First Question is on Focus Point. I shoot a snap in two ways.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> setting 16 to get it to lock the exposure as well.  Use the AE-L, AF_l
> button to lock exposure if you want that.

I think it was the AE/AF lock button that I changed the behavior on.
Anyways, figure out these two & the problem is solved.
 
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