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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / August 2006

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Lag Time comparison Chart

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Matt - 29 Jul 2006 04:53 GMT
Ah ha! Here's the chart that took me an hour to find, a comparision of
lag times!
"<A HREF="http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/shutter-lag.html/">

Matt

<A HREF="http:digitalartphotographyfordummes.blogspot.com/>Digital
Traveler Blog</A>
<A HREF="bookofsigns.blogspot.com/">Book of Signs Blog</A>
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 29 Jul 2006 14:32 GMT
> Ah ha! Here's the chart that took me an hour to find, a comparision of
> lag times!
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Traveler Blog</A>
> <A HREF="bookofsigns.blogspot.com/">Book of Signs Blog</A>

It is not clear how the numbers were derived, but comparing
the two cameras in the chart that I have, I can tell the
numbers are WAY wrong.

I have a Canon 1D Mark II and Canon 10D.  I have fast L
lenses (e.g. 500 mm f/4 L IS telephoto).  I can tell for without
a doubt the 1D Mark II is astoundingly fast compared to the
10D using the same lenses on the same subject, and
not just the 500mm lens).  To rate the 10D total lag at
0.189 second and the 1D Mark II at 0.235 second is just
plain wrong, unless you put the fastest autofocusing lens on the
10D and the slowest possible lens on the 1D Mark II.
I shoot a lot of wildlife action, and the response time
on the 1D Mark II is well under 0.1 second (total lag
time in my experience in multiple shooting conditions).

In real world action conditions, I would have two problems with
the 10D: 1) erratic action (e.g. bird in flight) with a complex
background (e.g. distant trees) has trouble locking onto
the subject and not the background, and 2) while tracking
a subject, if the focus point moved off the subject (e.g. due
to my inability to track erratic movement), the camera would never
regain focus until the subject stopped.

On the 1D Mark II, I don't have these problems.  Reports from people
in the field say the 20D has the same problems above, but with
the 1D Mark II, I can lose and reacquire the focus point on
a moving subject in what seems like well into 0.1 second.
The focus accuracy is much better on the 1DII also (having
had more than 50% out of focus action shots on a 10D, almost
all in good focus with the 1DII).

So, the table above is highly suspect.

Roger
Photos at: http://www.clarkvision.com
C J Southern - 29 Jul 2006 23:41 GMT
Unless I don't understand what lag really is, shouldn't such tests be done
with the lens at MF? I would have thought that AF time would be a highly
variable thing.

> In real world action conditions, I would have two problems with
> the 10D: 1) erratic action (e.g. bird in flight) with a complex
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> had more than 50% out of focus action shots on a 10D, almost
> all in good focus with the 1DII).

With the 20D in a case where you've got something like a 70-200mm lens
(maxed out at 200mm) - single (centre) AF point, and AF in servo mode the
camera can reaquire the focus, but it's usually VERY slow - lens will often
hunt across the full range one or more times. I suspect the main issue is
that when it's hunting (and I'm hand holding) it's impossible to keep the AF
point on the subject because it's so blurry.

I'd just LOVE to try this on a 1D class machine :(
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 30 Jul 2006 05:24 GMT
> Unless I don't understand what lag really is, shouldn't such tests be done
> with the lens at MF? I would have thought that AF time would be a highly
> variable thing.

Yes, you are correct.  But the same lens also performs differently
on different cameras, performing better on the 1D series than on the
consumer series.  In action photography, several factors are important
for recording the action: low shutter lag, fast autofocus, fast
tracking of focus, and focus accuracy.  Imagine you are a sports
photographer following a receiver about to catch the football.
As the runner changes distance toward you, the camera must
track the subject and not only change focus, but project
the focal point at the time the shutter actually fires, compensating
for shutter lag.  Same with tracking birds in flight or a
grizzly bear charging you.  My experience with the 10D and 20D
cameras is they fail pretty quickly as speed picks up.  The 1D Mark II
does well at much higher velocities (large birds in flight
are tracked very well even when they fill the viewfinder).
At 8.5 frames per second, the 1D Mark II tracks and maintains
focus on large birds filling the frame.
My dogs are too fast even for the 1D II when running towards
me when they fill the frame of a 300 mm lens.  Small birds can
appear totally at rest and then mostly out of the frame
when shooting at 8.5 frames per second(!) so are too fast
of the 1D Mark II.  I've not had problems tracking bears
in action (moving 1,000 pounds takes time, even for a grizzly).
Bird photos:
http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird
Bears:
http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bear

>>In real world action conditions, I would have two problems with
>>the 10D: 1) erratic action (e.g. bird in flight) with a complex
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> that when it's hunting (and I'm hand holding) it's impossible to keep the AF
> point on the subject because it's so blurry.

That's the difference with the 1D series.  By the time the 20D
has hunted, the bird is usually landed or gone.  You really
have only a few seconds of optimum position: frame filling
frontal view.  A couple of seconds later and all you get is the
bird sitting in a bush, or the tail and back as it flies away.
The 1D II, however, is able to reacquire the bird in a tiny
fraction of a second in my experience.  I've tracked many
birds as they come in for a landing, and lost the focus more
than once but got it back as soon as I got the focus point back on
the bird's eye (typically using a 500 mm f/4 lens, sometimes
with 1.4 or 2x TCs).

> I'd just LOVE to try this on a 1D class machine :(

It was hard for me to spend the money on the 1D Mark II
($4500 in 2004; now about $3500), but I have never
regretted spending that money.  The performance
difference between the 1D II and consumer DSLRs to me
feels like the difference in consumer DSLRs and a
slow point and shoot camera.

Roger
C J Southern - 30 Jul 2006 11:29 GMT
> Imagine you are a sports
> photographer following a receiver about to catch the football.

Nah - who'd wanna photograph those nancy-boys who have more padding than a
king-sized mattress ;)

Can I imagine I'm protographing the All Blacks kicking Australia's butts
again?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_blacks

> I've not had problems tracking bears
> in action (moving 1,000 pounds takes time, even for a grizzly).

If I ever get to photograph a grizzly I hope it's the rear end I'm shooting
as it's going away from me!

> It was hard for me to spend the money on the 1D Mark II
> ($4500 in 2004; now about $3500), but I have never
> regretted spending that money.  The performance
> difference between the 1D II and consumer DSLRs to me
> feels like the difference in consumer DSLRs and a
> slow point and shoot camera.

OK - I'm jealous.

I think I'll wait for the next revision and see what I can justify spending
from there - I need to start thinking about my retirement savings, damn it
:(

I'd love to get my hands on one for a trial though.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 30 Jul 2006 20:20 GMT
>>It was hard for me to spend the money on the 1D Mark II
>>($4500 in 2004; now about $3500), \

> I think I'll wait for the next revision and see what I can justify spending
> from there - I need to start thinking about my retirement savings, damn it
> :(
>
> I'd love to get my hands on one for a trial though.

My idea for anyone nearing retirement and wanting to get
into serious photography (works for any fun stuff as you
reach retirement):

Set your retirement date.  Then decide how much you
want to spend on the fun stuff (e.g. $20,000 in photo
gear).  At your retirement date, start a lifestyle and
spending as if you are retired, but don't retire.
As you continue to work, put the difference into
savings for those fun toys.  Once your savings reach
your goal, then retire, buy the toys and
start having fun.

But if you are young and just starting retirement savings,
it's a long haul.  (second job?)  It's not easy when trying
to raise a family too.
(been there)

Roger
AaronW - 30 Jul 2006 02:30 GMT
> I have a Canon 1D Mark II and Canon 10D.  I have fast L
> lenses (e.g. 500 mm f/4 L IS telephoto).  I can tell for without
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> had more than 50% out of focus action shots on a 10D, almost
> all in good focus with the 1DII).

Is 5D's AF close to 1D or 10D? How much does a film camera cost with 1D
like AF? I thought AF is digital technology and should get better and
cheaper as faster computer gets cheaper. I hope to see good AF gets
cheaper, into an $1K camera. Does any competition have better and
cheaper AF?
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 30 Jul 2006 05:34 GMT
> Is 5D's AF close to 1D or 10D?

I do not know, but in general, the 5D is billed as a higher
end camera, so it should be better than the 10D and 20D, but by
how much, you would need to read the canon literature.

> How much does a film camera cost with 1D
> like AF?

Look for the 1V series cameras, e.g.:
http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/canon_eos-1v.shtml

I think they go for around $2000 (e.g. check B&H)

I thought AF is digital technology and should get better and
> cheaper as faster computer gets cheaper. I hope to see good AF gets
> cheaper, into an $1K camera. Does any competition have better and
> cheaper AF?

I think Nikon has comparable AF in many cameras; I'm not sure
how the Canon 1D top end compares to Nikon's top end.
Currently the 1D Mark IIn is the fastest DSLR on the market.

Roger
Peter - 01 Aug 2006 12:50 GMT
>> On the 1D Mark II, I don't have these problems.  Reports from people
>> in the field say the 20D has the same problems above, but with
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> cheaper, into an $1K camera. Does any competition have better and
> cheaper AF?

Just my $0.02, but for action photography I think AF is close to useless. MF
is the name of the game... your focus point can change in a fraction of a
second, and MF will enable you to compose the shot quicker & better, plus
the lens wont hunt == faster focusing. Of course you have to learn how to MF
first (which I'm still doing...)

Peter
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 01 Aug 2006 14:03 GMT
> Just my $0.02, but for action photography I think AF is close to useless. MF
> is the name of the game... your focus point can change in a fraction of a
> second, and MF will enable you to compose the shot quicker & better, plus
> the lens wont hunt == faster focusing. Of course you have to learn how to MF
> first (which I'm still doing...)

I'm not sure what cameras you have experience with, but
on the better cameras, AF is much faster than probably any
human, and much more precise.  I know that is definitely
true for me, and the many photographers I have shot beside
when doing wildlife action.  Further, the focus screens
in modern digital cameras are poor for accurate focusing.

Here are some examples where fast AF is critical (note
the focus point on the eyes):

http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bear/web/brown_bear.c09.07.2004.JZ3
F0862.b-700.html


http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bear/web/brown_bear.c09.09.2004.JZ3
F4246.b-700.html


http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/web/c01.14.2003.img_5113.egret
-flight.f-600.html


http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/web/eagle.c09.11.2004.JZ3F4717
.b-700.html


http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/web/egret.c03.04.2004.img_0999
.d-600.html


An AF system tracks the focus point and projects the focus at the
time the shutter actually fires (assuming constant velocity).
That can be important for the faster moving subjects.
In such cases, MF is useless.

Roger
 
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