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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / August 2006Got my Nikon back - still broken.
Sent my D70 in 4 weeks ago because the exposures were all over the place... Picked it up today, they said they replaced the entire exposure circuit... But they broke the multi-selector! One direction doesn't work, can't go down in menus! Great work, Nikon... So looks like I'll have no pictures this summer... And a Canon system next summer... that 30D looks nicer now... Bye-bye Nikon... Stay tuned for a list of Nikon lenses for sale... > Sent my D70 in 4 weeks ago because the exposures were all over the > place... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Stay tuned for a list of Nikon lenses for sale... --------------- Don't overlook Fuji DSLR in the rush to swap brands. Great skin tones and very natural looking colours with a nice, wide contrast range thanks to dual sensors. Reliable too. >Sent my D70 in 4 weeks ago because the exposures were all over the place... >Picked it up today, they said they replaced the entire exposure circuit... >But they broke the multi-selector! >One direction doesn't work, can't go down in menus! > >Great work, Nikon... I would see about sending an email to Nikons head office to let them know you're dissatisfied and see if they can do anything to help. You might be surprised what a little complaining to management can do. A happy customer is much more important to them than the drones in the service departments. >So looks like I'll have no pictures this summer... So you can't use the camera at all? Sound to me like it's still usable, just less friendly, so I'd use it as is until it's more convenient to get it fixed. At least you can take pictures for now. >And a Canon system next summer... that 30D looks nicer now... >Bye-bye Nikon... >Stay tuned for a list of Nikon lenses for sale... That's a rash decision. And could be costly for any decent glass you might have. I would wait another week or so and see what the new Nikon model offers. Worst case is you use the crippled D70 for a while longer then upgrade or migrate to Canon later. >>Sent my D70 in 4 weeks ago because the exposures were all over the place... >>Picked it up today, they said they replaced the entire exposure circuit... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >So you can't use the camera at all? When I picked it up, I returned to my car and put a lens, battery, and memory into it and tried it - I tried to view the pics I just took and couldn't scroll down! Then I tried the menu - same thing - no way to select menu items other then the top one! The selector only works sideways... So I took it right back into the store and they will send it back... after all THEY broke it... I'm not going to eat that... and what else might not work?? another month I guess... >Sound to me like it's still usable, just less friendly, so I'd use it as >is until it's more convenient to get it fixed. At least you can take [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >That's a rash decision. And could be costly for any decent glass you >might have. I never was really happy with the D70 view, I was going to get a D200... but the 30D is a quieter camera and $600 cheaper... and has a nicer view. My plan was to have more then 2 cameras in case this kind of thing happened... But a Canon with 1 or 2 lens isn't a bad idea, even if I get the D70 back fixed and stick with the Nikon stuff. >I would wait another week or so and see what the new Nikon model offers. >Worst case is you use the crippled D70 for a while longer then upgrade >or migrate to Canon later. I'm not sure the new Nikon coming is an upgrade... if it's just a D70 replacement, it won't be good enough. >When I picked it up, I returned to my car and put a lens, battery, and memory >into it and tried it - I tried to view the pics I just took and couldn't scroll [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >another month I guess... That sucks. I'd still see about emailing Nikon. If no one complains, they won't know that it's a problem. >>That's a rash decision. And could be costly for any decent glass you >>might have. > >I never was really happy with the D70 view, I was going to get a D200... but the >30D is a quieter camera and $600 cheaper... and has a nicer view. Really? I think the D200 has a better viewfinder, brighter and bigger. While I haven't heard the 30D's shutter in person (just online) I expect it to be like the 20D. If so, the shutter volume of the D200 and 30D would be about the same, even if the sound is different, while the D70 is actually a bit quieter. >>I would wait another week or so and see what the new Nikon model offers. >>Worst case is you use the crippled D70 for a while longer then upgrade >>or migrate to Canon later. > >I'm not sure the new Nikon coming is an upgrade... if it's just a D70 >replacement, it won't be good enough. From everything I've gathered so far, it sounds like it's going to be more like a trimmed down D200, between the D70s and D200, along the lines of how the Canon Rebel XT is a trimmed down 30D. I understand it will not be a replacement for the D70s either, at least not yet. > I think the D200 has a better viewfinder, brighter and bigger. > > While I haven't heard the 30D's shutter in person (just online) I expect > it to be like the 20D. FWIW, Canon seems to make a big deal about the 30D's shutter being redesigned. So it may very well sound different from teh 20D.  SignatureE-mail fudged to thwart spammers. Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply. >> I think the D200 has a better viewfinder, brighter and bigger. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >FWIW, Canon seems to make a big deal about the 30D's shutter being >redesigned. So it may very well sound different from teh 20D. It definitely does sound different - the online samples demonstrate that quite clearly. But the question was, is it louder or softer in volume. >>When I picked it up, I returned to my car and put a lens, battery, and memory >>into it and tried it - I tried to view the pics I just took and couldn't scroll [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >I think the D200 has a better viewfinder, brighter and bigger. Actually I meant the 30D was a better view then the D70, I haven't found a D200 to look through. That's another thing, how could I buy one? There are NONE available around here... I found a D70s and a 30D side by side in a Best Buy store display, and compared the view. >While I haven't heard the 30D's shutter in person (just online) I expect >it to be like the 20D. If so, the shutter volume of the D200 and 30D >would be about the same, even if the sound is different, while the D70 >is actually a bit quieter. I meant quieter sensor, as in high ISO setting noise. >>>I would wait another week or so and see what the new Nikon model offers. >>>Worst case is you use the crippled D70 for a while longer then upgrade [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I understand it will not be a replacement for the D70s either, at least >not yet. I guess I should wait for the reviews... I wonder if the film in my fridge is still good... >>> I never was really happy with the D70 view, I was going to get a >>> D200... but the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > available around here... I found a D70s and a 30D side by side in a Best Buy > store display, and compared the view. Shopping for quality digital SLRs at a place like Best Buy doesn't seem wise to me. Go to a camera store that is an authorized Nikon (or Canon) dealer and work with them. They almost certainly have a demo model of either of these cameras even if they don't have stock available for immediate sale. If they have a waiting list, get on it. I have had my D200 for months as well as my 18-200 VR Nikon lens - through a reputable dealer and having been on a waiting list. Forget all the "quick" and "cheap" solutions - work the system and make the system work for you..... >>>> I would wait another week or so and see what the new Nikon model offers. >>>> Worst case is you use the crippled D70 for a while longer then upgrade >>>> or migrate to Canon later. >>> >>> I'm not sure the new Nikon coming is an upgrade... if it's just a D70 >>> replacement, it won't be good enough. IMO, the D200 is such a superior camera that I wouldn't waste time looking for some as yet unknown "replacement" for the D70. Personally, it seems to me that the D70 replacement was the firmware update that made it into a D70s minus the larger LCD. I replaced my D70s with the D200 - incredibly superior performance from the D200..... >> From everything I've gathered so far, it sounds like it's going to be >> more like a trimmed down D200, between the D70s and D200, along the >> lines of how the Canon Rebel XT is a trimmed down 30D. Personally, I see little or no "reason" to trim down either the D200 or the 30D. Both are superior performers - why settle for less? PC >>>> I never was really happy with the D70 view, I was going to get a >>>> D200... but the [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > Personally, I see little or no "reason" to trim down either the D200 or > the 30D. Both are superior performers - why settle for less? Because everybody can't afford the price? > PC Signature--John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) >>> From everything I've gathered so far, it sounds like it's going to be >>> more like a trimmed down D200, between the D70s and D200, along the >>> lines of how the Canon Rebel XT is a trimmed down 30D. > >Personally, I see little or no "reason" to trim down either the D200 or >the 30D. Both are superior performers - why settle for less? Not everyone wants or needs all the features and performance of the more advanced cameras like the D200. And some people don't want to pay $2000 for a digital body - price can be a very important factor to non-pros. But a trimmed down version with the same image quality is a good way to appeal to the advanced user who doesn't need pro equipment but still wants good results. That's why Canon made the Rebel XT and why Nikon made their new model due to be announced next month. >Shopping for quality digital SLRs at a place like Best Buy doesn't seem >wise to me. I was just there checking out laptops at the time, and spotted the cameras. >Go to a camera store that is an authorized Nikon (or Canon) dealer and >work with them. They almost certainly have a demo model of either of >these cameras even if they don't have stock available for immediate >sale. NO stores here have one. > If they have a waiting list, get on it. A few stores told me they have a waiting list, and I told them to call me when a camera comes in that I can see, and they seem to be ignoring me. One store told me their waiting list is full, and maybe even the second list..? I gave up for now. The pro at the store that sold me my D70 told me that Canon's are better... > I have had my D200 for >months as well as my 18-200 VR Nikon lens - through a reputable dealer >and having been on a waiting list. How much was the lens? >Forget all the "quick" and "cheap" solutions - work the system and make >the system work for you..... [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >PC I see the new Sony (Minolta) has the same sensor as the D200, but has built in VR... that could save a fortune on future lenses... and it's half the price! Bye-bye Nikon! We'll see.... According to <BobF@nospam.com>: [ ... ] > >Go to a camera store that is an authorized Nikon (or Canon) dealer and > >work with them. They almost certainly have a demo model of either of > >these cameras even if they don't have stock available for immediate > >sale. > > NO stores here have one. I can't tell where "here" is. I do know that the local Penn Camera (near Tyson's Corner VA) has a demo model. There was a waiting list a few months ago when I handled it, and probably still is, but they *do* have the demo unit at least, to whet the appetite. [ ... ] > I see the new Sony (Minolta) has the same sensor as the D200, but has built in > VR... that could save a fortune on future lenses... and it's half the price! Depending on how well the in-camera VR works through a wide range of focal lengths. I think that I would prefer VR in the lens, so it is optimally matched to the focal length. Enjoy, DoN. SignatureEmail: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- >A few stores told me they have a waiting list, and I told them to call me when a >camera comes in that I can see, and they seem to be ignoring me. One store told >me their waiting list is full, and maybe even the second list..? I gave up for >now. The pro at the store that sold me my D70 told me that Canon's are >better... It might even be true, but my guess is that he'd rather sell a camera than put you on a wait list. It doesn't take genius-level brains to figure that you are on several wait lists and will take the first one that comes through. ---- Paul J. Gans >>A few stores told me they have a waiting list, and I told them to call me when a >>camera comes in that I can see, and they seem to be ignoring me. One store told [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > ---- Paul J. Gans I don't understand why I'm being ignored... one place I called back to see how it was going said they didn't know of me being on a wait list... Nobody wants to sell me what I want... or even try to sell me something else... There are no salesmen anymore - just clerks... Anyway - screw em all for now, I bought something else. But send me a list of the Nikkor glass you have and if I want to buy any of it, I will pay 75% below the purchase price. Moving over to that Canon will cost you brother. Nikon will fix the camera, and you did not say if it was sent to Nikon or a place the retail shop you purchased it from uses. Old Man River >>Sent my D70 in 4 weeks ago because the exposures were all over the >>place... [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Worst case is you use the crippled D70 for a while longer then upgrade > or migrate to Canon later. BobF@nospam.com skrev: > Sent my D70 in 4 weeks ago because the exposures were all over the place... > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Stay tuned for a list of Nikon lenses for sale... Guess you dont want to hear the Danish stories about service from Canon and Sigma and Nikon and and........And worse - as long as they can sell faster than they can produce, nothing will change. SignatureMed venlig hilsen, Ole Larsen. New Images And Design, june 2006 http://Olelarsen.eu/ http://home.tiscali.dk/muggler >BobF@nospam.com skrev: >> Sent my D70 in 4 weeks ago because the exposures were all over the place... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >and Sigma and Nikon and and........And worse - as long as they can sell >faster than they can produce, nothing will change. Ya there are lots of problems with today's stuff, but I already had a Canon miniDV repaired here at Canon, and got the camera back in one week - no problems. If the Nikon shop is staffed with monkeys here then I don't want to deal with them. BTW I'm a technician, I know how service shops work - it's all in the local staff. They make or break the company. And the manager is usually the one to blame - he's the dumbass too stupid to hire good people. You wouldn't BELIEVE the stupid things managers have said to me... I might write a book when I retire! "I told the manager that when the server misses a message, it sets a flag. After 3 error flags for the same packet, it turns on the 'local communication fail light'." . "If a good packet arrives, the fail light will go out". He asked me, "Can we buy more flags for the computer?" >"I told the manager that when the server misses a message, it sets a flag. After >3 error flags for the same packet, it turns on the 'local communication fail >light'." . "If a good packet arrives, the fail light will go out". He asked me, >"Can we buy more flags for the computer?" So...did you get more flags or what? :-) >> "I told the manager that when the server misses a message, it sets a flag. After >> 3 error flags for the same packet, it turns on the 'local communication fail >> light'." . "If a good packet arrives, the fail light will go out". He asked me, >> "Can we buy more flags for the computer?" > > So...did you get more flags or what? The manager ultimately decided that buying more flags wouldn't be cost effective. So instead he ordered that fewer packets be sent to the server, and then billed reduction as a "cost savings," earning himself a bonus. SignatureE-mail fudged to thwart spammers. Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply. > Sent my D70 in 4 weeks ago because the exposures were all over the > place... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Stay tuned for a list of Nikon lenses for sale... I've seen and heard horror stories about poor repair service for *all* the major brands I think -- definitely including Canon. I've also seen reports of superb repair service for the same brands. It seems to work something like Russian roulette. You send the camera off and hope the hammer doesn't fall on a loaded chamber. Neil >> Sent my D70 in 4 weeks ago because the exposures were all over the >> place... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Neil They really are pushing the consumer throw away world... disposable cameras... how long till we get a disposable DSLR? Maybe we should turn to short term leasing... camera breaks, go get another one, pay the monthly bill, that's it, that's all. > Stay tuned for a list of Nikon lenses for sale... Heed SilentLamb's post if you abandon Nikon bodies ... FujiFilm S3 will work with your lenses and has a greater dynamic range (on the highlight side by about 2 stops) than most other DSLR's. Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. >> Stay tuned for a list of Nikon lenses for sale... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Cheers, >Alan Thanks, I'll check that out. Now instead of the Canon 30D I'm looking at the Sony... after all, one of my film camera is a Minolta F9... wonder it thats too old a lens... >>>Stay tuned for a list of Nikon lenses for sale... >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Now instead of the Canon 30D I'm looking at the Sony... after all, one of my > film camera is a Minolta F9... wonder it thats too old a lens... The Sony's are Maxxum/Dynax compatible (Autofocus), otherwise known as Minolta A-mount. Older MF lenses from Minolta will not work on the Sony. The Sony A100 is a disappointment to me, a glorified P&S. For Sony to nail this one, they have to do a Maxxum 9 (or at least a Maxxum 7/7D) class machine before I'll buy one (I have 6 Maxxum lenses, 5 of which are high-end len$e$, so I really hope they step up to the plate). Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. >>>>Stay tuned for a list of Nikon lenses for sale... >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Cheers, >Alan After reading the reviews, I ordered a Sony for myself... should get it in a week. I like the price/performance ratio. I know it's missing lots of high end features that I would have got in the D200, but the bottom line is - the end picture is the same or better according to DCReview, and it's cheap. As for things like high ISO - I never shoot in high ISO... I don't need 5 FPS, 3 would be great... 1 second boot time is OK, I usually turn the camera on 15 seconds before I want to shoot! A glorified P&S is all I want for about 50% of my shots - simple product stuff - another 25% is just tourist snapshots. For the remainder, I can muddle through. Anyway, I will get a better camera one day, I seem to collect them... and I might even get my Nikon back repaired... I call it the 3 year itch... I still have my 1973 Mamiya Sekor 35mm - a rare camera... >>>>> Stay tuned for a list of Nikon lenses for sale... >>>> Heed SilentLamb's post if you abandon Nikon bodies ... FujiFilm S3 will [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > I still have my 1973 Mamiya Sekor 35mm - a rare camera... I have a Leica M3 I inherited from the original purchaser. [ . . . ] > After reading the reviews, I ordered a Sony for myself... should get it in > a > week. I like the price/performance ratio. Same here. > I know it's missing lots of high end features that I would have got in the > D200, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > another 25% is just tourist snapshots. For the remainder, I can muddle > through. And it's not "a glorified P&S" anyway. > Anyway, I will get a better camera one day, I seem to collect them... I know how that goes! > and I > might even get my Nikon back repaired... > > I call it the 3 year itch... > > I still have my 1973 Mamiya Sekor 35mm - a rare camera... Dunno how rare it is, but I had a couple of Mamiya Sekor D1000s about 1975 and liked 'em a lot. In those days I was accumulating lenses with the so-called Praktica-Pentax screw mount, and over a dozen years or so owned a number of Petri, Yashica, Praktica, Mamiya Sekor and Fujica cameras with that mount. While it was sort of primitive even then, the nice thing about that mount was there were so many cameras using it so you never really got locked into one brand. Neil > And it's not "a glorified P&S" anyway. You're right... no glory at all. Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. [ . . . ] > The Sony A100 is a disappointment to me, a glorified P&S. It's patently foolish to call *any* digital SLR "a glorified P&S." The term "point and shoot" is grotesquely misused 99.9% of the time anyway. It's absurd, for example, to call a highly sophisticated and versatile camera like the Nikon Coolpix 8800 a "point and shoot," but many users do for some unfathomable reason. Whence comes the silly notion that anything not an SLR must be a "point and shoot"? Look, "point and shoot" was the term coined to mean compact 35mm cameras with no user controls at all, apart from a few flash modes and self-timer. Everything else was automatic; the camera made every decision about exposure and focus settings by itself and in most cases didn't even give the user a clue as to what those settings were. All the user could do was, literally, point and shoot, and hope the camera was making reasonably good guesses. That has NOTHING WHATEVER in common with the vast majority of digital cameras today. I have shirt-pocket sized digital cameras that give me more control over the picture-taking process than most if not all of the 35mm SLRs I'ved owned over the last 45 years or so. My Nikon 8400, 8700 and 8800 cameras go far beyond any of those 35s in terms of user controls. Why, then, "P&S"? It's a nonsense term when applied to such cameras. I don't have (have never even handled) a Sony Alpha 100. I do have the Maxxum 5D which of course the A100 is based on, and love the camera. Probably I will eventually get the Sony too. Minolta's Anti-Shake (now "Super SteadyShot" in the Sony) is a really great feature and almost sells the camera by itself -- especially for those of us who already have closetfuls of Maxxum lenses. Neil >[ . . . ] >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >Neil I agree with you. To me a point&shoot is a camera with a tiny, noisy sensor, and a fixed lens, and usually shoots only in fully auto. My 280 was one. P&S cams always had a few adjustments, but nothing like a DSLR. Some never had any manual setting. I have an expensive newer P&S, the Dimage 7i, it has every adjustment you can think of, but the pics are crap compared to my D70. You might not call it a P&S technically, but I use that term as the dividing line between sensor size and lens mounts. Maybe we need a third term! So many things, so few pigeon holes! >>[ . . . ] >>> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > had > any manual setting. I've never seen a camera that I would call a point-and-shoot that had any real manual settings at all. Most have a motorized zoom in addition to the auto-everything operation, and as mentioned the choice of a few flash modes and self-timer, but that was it. In my opinion as soon as you add aperture and shutter-speed controls to a camera, by that alone you have taken it out of the P&S category. > I have an expensive newer P&S, the Dimage 7i, it has every adjustment you > can > think of, but the pics are crap compared to my D70. Sure. I have a D70s as well as Minolta 7i, 7Hi and A200 cameras. I wouldn't compare the latter three with the D70s for final picture quality, though I must say I love the Anti-Shake on the A200. There are many low-light situations in which I don't want to use flash, and AS has been just great for that. > You might not call it a P&S > technically, but I use that term as the dividing line between sensor size > and > lens mounts. > > Maybe we need a third term! I think we do need a different term. It's not really a question of whether a non-SLR or other non-interchangeable-lens camera does or doesn't equal a digital SLR in picture quality. The term "point and shoot" doesn't address that at all; it only implies absence of direct user control over exposure, focus etc. What new term? I dunno. Absent anything better I would suggest simply "compact." Even though a Nikon 8800 for example isn't a particularly compact camera, it's sure compact compared to a D70s with its 18-70mm lens! And certainly "compact" is not as completely, utterly wrong as "point and shoot." > So many things, so few pigeon holes! That's true. Neil > [ . . . ] > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > SLRs I'ved owned over the last 45 years or so. My Nikon 8400, 8700 and 8800 > cameras go far beyond any of those 35s in terms of user controls. And how was the manual focus on those three cameras? Greg >> [ . . . ] >> > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > And how was the manual focus on those three cameras? About as good as the manual zoom. The point is they are not "P&S" or anything remotely like it, any more than a D2x is "point and shoot" simply because it can be used in full auto mode. Neil > Greg > [ . . . ] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The term "point and shoot" is grotesquely misused 99.9% of the time anyway. > It's absurd, for example, to call a highly sophisticated and versatile <STUFF SNIPPED> > "Super SteadyShot" in the Sony) is a really great feature and almost sells > the camera by itself -- especially for those of us who already have > closetfuls of Maxxum lenses. Touchy, touchy. The 5D and the A100 are glorified P&S cameras. Any camera with pictograms (flowers, etc) is a P&S. It comes down to the LACK of *photographic* control on body buttons, dials, levers, switches, etc. The camera forces awkward button-hold-while-turning-dial and menu diving for somewhat routine photographic tasks. Try the 5 or 5D in manual exposure mode for a while. The Maxxum 5, 5D and A100 are not serious photographic cameras. (I have not handled the A100 either, but its similarity to the 5/5D is all too clear). My SO has the wonderful Maxxum 5 and it suits her needs very well ... but it can't come close to my needs. The Maxxum 7 and 7D are very close to ideal, yet both have several shortcomings. (I have a 7D as well as a 7xi and 9). http://www.aliasimages.com/Max7Drev.htm The Maxxum 9 is the THE reference photographic tool from Minolta and that is what we hope Sony will strive to achieve in a high end digital camera. The Maxxum 9 rivals the EOS-1V and F5 in many ways and surpasses both of them in several areas. I don't have a "closetful" of Maxxum lenses, but the 6 I have are worth more than most people spend on photographic equipment in their lifetimes... My interest in the Sony DSLR is as intense as anyone's ... which is why I am critical of what Sony has achieved ... or in the case of the A100, what they haven't ... Cheers, Alan. Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. >>>The Sony A100 is a disappointment to me, a glorified P&S. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Touchy, touchy. The 5D and the A100 are glorified P&S cameras. >Any camera with pictograms (flowers, etc) is a P&S. FYI - the Canon 5D does not have any of the dummy modes. >>>>The Sony A100 is a disappointment to me, a glorified P&S. >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > FYI - the Canon 5D does not have any of the dummy modes. Actually, it has one, the famous "green square" full auto mode. SignatureSkip Middleton www.shadowcatcherimagery.com >>>>The Sony A100 is a disappointment to me, a glorified P&S. >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > FYI - the Canon 5D does not have any of the dummy modes. We're talking about K-M, not Canon. Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. > The Maxxum 9 is the THE reference photographic tool from Minolta and > that is what we hope Sony will strive to achieve in a high end digital > camera. The Maxxum 9 rivals the EOS-1V and F5 in many ways and > surpasses both of them in several areas. I bought a D200 4 months ago and it's a great camera. I switched from a 7xi and an XD7. I preferred the XD7, so I never bought anything beyond the 28-105 for the 7xi, while I have several lenses for the XD7. As you probably know, the 7xi is a great camera (especially for its time), but the interface is a bit strange (and I should better not comment on the intelligent power zoom...). I only handled the Dynax 9 because a friend owns it, but it is an excellent camera in terms of handling. It is the only camera I've handled that comes close to the D200 in terms of naturalness of use. If something equivalent was available when I got my D200, I'd have bought it without a second thought. However, they were too late. A shame, since Minolta obviously learned their lesson: I also have a Dimage Z3 which, bizarely, allows easier control than the 7xi! eg exp comp with just buttons, no button holding; easy manual mode (up/down and left-right control aperture and speed); same for choosing the af area, etc. I mean, I still remember how to select af sensor on the 7xi: FUNC FUNC, front dial rotates sensor (no problem, since I always used the central sensor, but I see now with the D200 how it should be done)... Spot/honeycomb metering: FUNC FUNC, rear dial... Oh dear. Even after 14 years, it seems a bit strange. And when they got it right, they stop! >> [ . . . ] >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Touchy, touchy. The 5D and the A100 are glorified P&S cameras. > Any camera with pictograms (flowers, etc) is a P&S. Oh, it's the *pictograms* that make it so?! Then you should call 'em pictogram cameras, not P&S. They are certainly not point-and-shoots. By your definition ("Any camera with pictograms") a Nikon D2H or D2x is a P&S. I doubt you'll find many who agree with you on this. > It comes down to the LACK of *photographic* control on body buttons, > dials, levers, switches, etc. And is there some specific *number* of "body buttons, dials, levers, switches, etc." that in your mind take a camera out of the contemptible P&S category? By that measure I guess most of the 35mm SLRs I've owned would have been "P&S" in your view. > The camera forces awkward button-hold-while-turning-dial and menu diving > for somewhat routine photographic tasks. Try the 5 or 5D in manual > exposure mode for a while. To what purpose? From the early 1950s to the mid-1970s I used cameras that were *all* manual, *all* the time, exposure, focus, film advance and rewind, many of them without even any metering capability. Been there, done that -- only on rare occasions have any need or desire to do it again. > The Maxxum 5, 5D and A100 are not serious photographic cameras. We must have a very different way of looking at these things. From my point of view it's the photographer who's "serious" or not, not the tool he uses. > (I have not handled the A100 either, but its similarity to the 5/5D is all > too clear). My SO has the wonderful Maxxum 5 and it suits her needs very [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > which is why I am critical of what Sony has achieved ... or in the case of > the A100, what they haven't ... I will be very surprised if the A100 is not just the beginning of a long and successful line of dSLRs marketed over a wide range of price points. It's hard to imagine Sony even bothering to get into it otherwise. Neil >>Touchy, touchy. The 5D and the A100 are glorified P&S cameras. >>Any camera with pictograms (flowers, etc) is a P&S. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Then you should call 'em pictogram cameras, not P&S. They are certainly not > point-and-shoots. Read my characters: POINT & SHOOT. Set little PICTOGRAM, turn off any knowledge of phogoraphy and press-de-button. > By your definition ("Any camera with pictograms") a Nikon D2H or D2x is a > P&S. I doubt you'll find many who agree with you on this. Thay have pictograms? BWAAAHHHAHAHAHA. What an insult to real photographers paying a high price for features aimed at well heeled P&Sers. (Reminds me of the fellow ....) >>It comes down to the LACK of *photographic* control on body buttons, >>dials, levers, switches, etc. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > category? By that measure I guess most of the 35mm SLRs I've owned would > have been "P&S" in your view. Quite possibly. For me the reference is the Maxxum 9 which is about as perfect in this respect as an advanced 35mm camera can be. It is a near ideal photographic tool in its performance and usability. Most 35mm SLR's made in the past 15-20 years have been designed to sell to people who are not photography oriented but who want the 35mm "experience" (lenses, flashes, quality) but who will not be spending much time out of "P" mode. >>The camera forces awkward button-hold-while-turning-dial and menu diving >>for somewhat routine photographic tasks. Try the 5 or 5D in manual [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > many of them without even any metering capability. Been there, done that -- > only on rare occasions have any need or desire to do it again. When I use my Hasselblad I don't miss any automation ... as long as I have my incident/spot meter handy. Unfortunately (or fortunately) it takes more time to set up and >>The Maxxum 5, 5D and A100 are not serious photographic cameras. > > We must have a very different way of looking at these things. From my point > of view it's the photographer who's "serious" or not, not the tool he uses. Do you have pictograms on your hammer and saw? A serious photographer will gravitate to those tools that require the least fuss to do what he needs to do. > I will be very surprised if the A100 is not just the beginning of a long and > successful line of dSLRs marketed over a wide range of price points. It's > hard to imagine Sony even bothering to get into it otherwise. Boy, I really hit a nerve with you. The simple fact is that the Maxxum 5, 5D and Sony A100 are not what a serious photographer (pro or amateur) would use. The simple fact that you can't independantly control aperture and shutter speed in manual mode without using a function button is enough for that. Pictograms are not necessary for a serious photographer (and if other manufacturers put them on high end cameras it is becasue they are P&Sing them for deep pockets). On holiday I shot some 650 images (digital, about 80 MedFmt film) and not once was I out of manual exposure/manual focus. The fact that the 7D has independant controls for aperture and speed make that a natural way to work. The A100 (like the 5 and 5D) are and remain glorified P&S' in my considered opinion. As to what Sony does next, that is what is important to me (as many of my posts have said since the A100 was revealed). And what they do next better be, _at minimum_ a Maxxum 7 or 7D class machine and hopefully they can improve on the many shortcomings of the 7D and approach Maxxum 9 level. Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. >>>Touchy, touchy. The 5D and the A100 are glorified P&S cameras. >>>Any camera with pictograms (flowers, etc) is a P&S. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Read my characters: POINT & SHOOT. Set little PICTOGRAM, Real point-and-shoot cameras don't have many little pictograms. Typically one or two. Basically you turn the camera on, point it at something and shoot. Hence the expression "point and shoot." (Duh.) > turn off any knowledge of phogoraphy and press-de-button. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>>It comes down to the LACK of *photographic* control on body buttons, >>>dials, levers, switches, etc. Advanced dSLRs like the D2x have lots of those "body buttons, dials, levers, switches, etc." They also have lots of little pictograms that go with the body buttons, dials, levers, switches, etc. so the photographer will know what they do. The little pictograms make a lot more sense than printing out this information in 1.5-point type on the camera. Perhaps you have a camera with no pictograms at all. That sounds like a Baby Brownie. Some day you too may have a camera with lots of body buttons, dials, levers, switches, etc. and you will appreciate the little pictograms. See? Now you're learning something. Neil >>>>Touchy, touchy. The 5D and the A100 are glorified P&S cameras. >>>>Any camera with pictograms (flowers, etc) is a P&S. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > what they do. The little pictograms make a lot more sense than printing out > this information in 1.5-point type on the camera. The "pictograms" in question are the exposure mode ones such as little flowers, a background in or out of focus, "sunny" "backlit" etc. These are for people who really do not have a care for what goes into photography. > Perhaps you have a camera with no pictograms at all. That sounds like a Baby > Brownie. Some day you too may have a camera with lots of body buttons, > dials, levers, switches, etc. and you will appreciate the little pictograms. I assure that my Maxxum 9 and 7D do not have any pictorgrams and they are also replete with all the buttons/switches/levers/dials etc. that you can shale a stick at. I do lie a bit, the 7D has a pictogram for the anti-shake. I further assure you that I know what depth of field, shutter speed and fill light do to an image so a pictogram is hardly needed. Despite all the above, the type size is approx 10 to 20 depending on function and quite legible. But I do invite you to get whatever P&S camera you need that might help you in your photography ... with the pictograms. Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. >>>>>Touchy, touchy. The 5D and the A100 are glorified P&S cameras. >>>>>Any camera with pictograms (flowers, etc) is a P&S. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > are for people who really do not have a care for what goes into > photography. The little flower is a logical pictogram for close-up mode. It takes up less space than printing "CLOSE-UP" on or near the button would, which is important for compact and ultracompact cameras. Since it's a function of the lens rather than the body, it does not appear on any digital SLR as far as I know, and the others you mention rarely if ever appear on any type of camera I've seen. >> Perhaps you have a camera with no pictograms at all. That sounds like a >> Baby Brownie. Some day you too may have a camera with lots of body >> buttons, dials, levers, switches, etc. and you will appreciate the little >> pictograms. > > I assure that my Maxxum 9 and 7D do not have any pictorgrams and they If your 7D doesn't have any pictograms it's a very unusual one, since the standard 7D has lots of them. > are also replete with all the buttons/switches/levers/dials etc. that you > can shale a stick at. I do lie a bit, the 7D has a pictogram for the > anti-shake. It should have a lot more pictograms than that! Pictograms for single frame, continuous advance, self-timer and bracketing -- and that's just on the drive mode dial (you can find it under the exposure mode dial). On the back there are more pictograms for display, magnification, delete (see that cute little trash can?), playback, metering mode, etc. I think you need to look at your 7D more carefully. > I further assure you that I know what depth of field, shutter speed and > fill light do to an image so a pictogram is hardly needed. Despite all [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > But I do invite you to get whatever P&S camera you need that might help > you in your photography ... with the pictograms. Touchy, touchy. If you didn't have all those pictograms on your 7D you'd be at a serious disadvantage -- but of course it's possible you never use those features or adjustments anyway so it doesn't matter to you. For example, if you never have occasion to switch metering mode between center-weighted, matrix and spot, then I suppose you can just leave that switch in the position it came in out of the box, and never worry about it. Neil According to Neil Harrington <not@home.today>: [ ... ] > > The "pictograms" in question are the exposure mode ones such as little > > flowers, a background in or out of focus, "sunny" "backlit" etc. These [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > know, and the others you mention rarely if ever appear on any type of camera > I've seen. Well ... there is a flower pictogram (icon) (along with others) on the "mode dial" to the left of the pentaprism hump on the Nikon D70. But what it does there is adjust the priorities of the automatic exposure control to favor close-ups. There are several other selections on the dial, other than "Auto", "Program", "Shutter-preferred", "Aperture-preferred" and "Manual". The close-up icon seems to change the color balance, among other things. It switches focus area to center focus (which can be overridden). It sets flash to front-curtain sync. The manual does not truly detail exactly what it does, this is (in part) from reading between the lines. Other fancy modes (with icons) offered: ====================================================================== Portrait Favors larger apertures Front curtain flash sync Landscape Apparently turns on image enhancement. Sports High shutter speeds. Continuous focus tracking while shutter is half-pressed. Turns *off* built in flash and autofocus assist (not that useful at a distance, anyway.) The continuous tracking mode for the autofocus might be a reason for me to use that mode, rather than diving into a menu to change from one-shot focus to continuous. Night Landscape Turns off flash and autofocus assist. Night Portrait Balances flash for foreground and background illumination. ====================================================================== I didn't bother to describe the icons. So -- I might wind up using the "sports" setting from time to time. (to get quick access to the continuous-focus AF) The rest, I can usually accomplish on my own in P, A, S, or M modes. So -- there are serious cameras with the icons to assist non-serious users. One (of many) thing that I wish the D70 had which the D200 does is the lock to keep the mode wheel from turning unless you push the lock to release it. Every so often, I discover that rubbing against my body or my arm has shifted the mode dial from my default "P" setting, used for quick response to sudden opportunities. Program "P" mode turns off the two most offensive auto features (autofocus zone selects the nearest subject in the viewfinder, and pops up the flash even when I don't want it), but gives me "quick grab" capabilities, otherwise. Enjoy, DoN. SignatureEmail: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- > According to Neil Harrington <not@home.today>: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Well ... there is a flower pictogram (icon) (along with others) > on the "mode dial" to the left of the pentaprism hump on the Nikon D70. Right, I see it's on the D70s also. (Slightly red face. :-) ) I think I have too many cameras. > But what it does there is adjust the priorities of the automatic > exposure control to favor close-ups. There are several other selections > on the dial, other than "Auto", "Program", "Shutter-preferred", > "Aperture-preferred" and "Manual". I haven't had the D70s long enough to get really familiar with it, and have never even looked into that close-up mode. I knew it does have other icons on that dial that are more or less equivalent in purpose to those on the Maxxum 5D, just didn't remember the flower icon. > The close-up icon seems to change the color balance, among other things. > It switches focus area to center focus (which can be overridden). [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Night Portrait Balances flash for foreground and background illumination. > ====================================================================== Interesting. Most of those I knew or would have assumed, but the Landscape turning on image enhancement is news to me. Using Sports mode as a quickie way to get continuous AF is a good tip. In most cases, I suppose when you want continuous AF you want relatively high shutter speeds too. > I didn't bother to describe the icons. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So -- there are serious cameras with the icons to assist > non-serious users. Absolutely! I have no problem at all with icons or the modes they represent. With most compact cameras you can see in the Exif data what the mode does exactly, which I find useful, and in many cases it's just about what I'd want to do anyway. For example, in Pentax compacts going into "Autumn colors" (on a menu) mode changes exposure -1/3 stop and boosts saturation slightly. That works quite well. With Nikon compacts it's easier to go into "Library" mode which turns off the flash and sets the camera in Best Shot Selector mode, than to do those two things separately. And I find BSS to be extremely useful in low light -- almost a "poor man's image stabilization." > One (of many) thing that I wish the D70 had which the D200 does > is the lock to keep the mode wheel from turning unless you push the lock [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > subject in the viewfinder, and pops up the flash even when I don't want > it), but gives me "quick grab" capabilities, otherwise. I'm not familiar at all with the D200. However, a couple of my older Minolta DiMAGE cameras (7i, 7Hi) do have a lock on the mode dial and I find it annoying. It's a spring-loaded tab on the dial, so it's not always in the same place -- its location depends on what the dial is turned to, so you always have to look to see where it is before you can turn the dial, and though that's hardly a major impediment it often seems awkward to me. The mostly similar A200 doesn't have the lock and I like that a lot better. I see your point about accidentally moving the dial, though. Mostly that's happened to me with cameras that had too-weak detents in the dial, and that was a nuisance. Neil According to Neil Harrington <not@home.today>: [ ... ] > > Sports High shutter speeds. > > Continuous focus tracking while shutter is half-pressed. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > a reason for me to use that mode, rather than diving > > into a menu to change from one-shot focus to continuous. [ ... ] > Interesting. Most of those I knew or would have assumed, but the Landscape > turning on image enhancement is news to me. At least the description of the mode in the manual suggests that is what happens. > Using Sports mode as a quickie > way to get continuous AF is a good tip. In most cases, I suppose when you > want continuous AF you want relatively high shutter speeds too. And I had not actually remembered that until I dove into the manual to get the descriptions for the modes which I did not remember well. [ ... ] > > So -- there are serious cameras with the icons to assist > > non-serious users. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > exactly, which I find useful, and in many cases it's just about what I'd > want to do anyway. Agreed -- though often I would rather that it was *my* decision, so I can select the tradeoffs involved. > For example, in Pentax compacts going into "Autumn > colors" (on a menu) mode changes exposure -1/3 stop and boosts saturation > slightly. That works quite well. With Nikon compacts it's easier to go into > "Library" mode which turns off the flash and sets the camera in Best Shot > Selector mode, than to do those two things separately. And I find BSS to be > extremely useful in low light -- almost a "poor man's image stabilization." Reasonable enough. > > One (of many) thing that I wish the D70 had which the D200 does > > is the lock to keep the mode wheel from turning unless you push the lock [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > same place -- its location depends on what the dial is turned to, so you > always have to look to see where it is before you can turn the dial, The one time I tried the D200 in the local camera store, I found that the lock lever was in a constant location -- and rather convenient to the left thumb if you have moved the left hand to grip the body (instead of support the lens), as would be likely when turning that dial. > and > though that's hardly a major impediment it often seems awkward to me. The > mostly similar A200 doesn't have the lock and I like that a lot better. I > see your point about accidentally moving the dial, though. Mostly that's > happened to me with cameras that had too-weak detents in the dial, and that > was a nuisance. That is my experience, at least. I don't alway remember to look at it before shooting -- especially if I don't have advance warning that I am going to *want* to shoot. Enjoy, DoN. SignatureEmail: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- > I'm not familiar at all with the D200. However, a couple of my older Minolta > DiMAGE cameras (7i, 7Hi) do have a lock on the mode dial and I find it [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > happened to me with cameras that had too-weak detents in the dial, and that > was a nuisance. The D200 has a little lock button next to the dial, but the dial's function is completely different than that of the D70. The D70 dial sets modes like AUTO, P, A, S, M, and a few programmed modes. The D200 dial sets the multiple shot function for the shutter -- single frame, slow (programmable) multiple mode, fast multiple shot mode, self-timer, and "Mup" (mirror up). The D200 has no AUTO mode, nor does it have any of the programmed modes found on the D70 or D80 (which has the same mode dial as the D70), but it has P, S, A, and M. These are selected by pressing the MODE button next to the ON/OFF/LCD Light switch and rotating the primary function dial. I really have not got a clue why the D70 and the D80 have an AUTO mode. The first thing anyone does with them is to turn it off in order to get rid of the annoying pop-up flash. No one I know uses AUTO. (Or if they did, I would not admit knowing them. :-) ) The chief function of AUTO is to turn the camera into a point and shoot. I have no objection to that, but it seems to be a waste of a lot of good features. >> I'm not familiar at all with the D200. However, a couple of my older >> Minolta [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > is to turn the camera into a point and shoot. I have no objection to > that, but it seems to be a waste of a lot of good features. Yes, it's a major annoyance indoors with that pesky flash popping up. I tried Auto mode out of curiosity the first day I got the camera and don't think I've used it since. And I agree that it doesn't seem to have any place on an SLR. But I suppose Nikon put it there because they figure a lot of new SLR users will feel more comfortable having a "green camera" mode such as they are already familiar with on their compact / ultracompact cameras. My first auto-everything SLR (as far as I know, the world's first) was the original Maxxum 7000. A friend of mine was enormously impressed with it and bought one for himself. He still has it, about 20 years later. As far as I know he has never taken it out of P mode -- the closest thing to a "green camera" mode on that camera. I'm about 99% sure he never has. And I'm about 95% sure he never pays the slightest attention to the exposure information provided in the viewfinder. There are, I think, a lot of people who buy an SLR because it's "the best kind of camera," not because they have any real interest in how it works or what its capabilities are. They are the "green camera" folks, and Nikon may as well sell SLRs to them too. If they don't, Canon will. Neil > "Alan Browne" <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca> wrote in message >>The "pictograms" in question are the exposure mode ones such as little >>flowers, a background in or out of focus, "sunny" "backlit" etc. These [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > know, and the others you mention rarely if ever appear on any type of camera > I've seen. Maxxum 5. Several Canon EOS', Nikon 55, others. >>>Perhaps you have a camera with no pictograms at all. That sounds like a >>>Baby Brownie. Some day you too may have a camera with lots of body [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > little trash can?), playback, metering mode, etc. I think you need to look > at your 7D more carefully. Metering mode on my 7D is simply "P" "(P)" "A" "S" "M" "1" "2" "3". Where are the pictorgram? Nope. None. The "pictorgrams" being discussed are the exposure mode pictograms to give non photographers instant settings for those situations for which they can't remember a few simple concepts. (As I clarified a couple posts ago). A flower. A face. A figure with sun behind it. Things a photographer doesn't need a pictorgram for; things a photographer simply sets correctly in terms of aperture, speed and fill flash if required. A close up magnifying glass; a trashcan are _functions_ for which those pictos are entirely logical. They have nothing to do with photography but data management, viewing, etc. The pictograms for the transport (bracketting, volley fire, etc.) are likewise modes for how the shutter button reacts. I have no objection to those and, in any case, if you showed them to a non-photgrapher he'd be as puzzled as could be without recourse to the manual. > Touchy, touchy. If you didn't have all those pictograms on your 7D you'd be > at a serious disadvantage -- but of course it's possible you never use those > features or adjustments anyway so it doesn't matter to you. For example, if > you never have occasion to switch metering mode between center-weighted, > matrix and spot, then I suppose you can just leave that switch in the > position it came in out of the box, and never worry about it. See above. You've missed the whole point. Entirely. The metering "weight" switch, like other functional switches, presents functional and useful symbols. It does not present a little rubber ducky or smiling sun to suggest what I should use it for. That is what the "pictograms" on the metering mode dial are for: non thinking photographers with a camera. Glorified P&S' in other words. The A100 has 6 such modes on the exposure mode dial. P&S. Cheers, Alan. Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. >> "Alan Browne" <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Maxxum 5. Several Canon EOS', Nikon 55, others. Sorry, I meant any type of digital cameras. My bad, I should have been more specific. >>>>Perhaps you have a camera with no pictograms at all. That sounds like a >>>>Baby Brownie. Some day you too may have a camera with lots of body [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Metering mode on my 7D is simply "P" "(P)" "A" "S" "M" "1" "2" "3". Well, those are mostly exposure modes, not metering modes per se. > Where are the pictorgram? Nope. None. Check the back of the camera, the switch around the AEL button. Icons (pictograms if you like) for center weighted, matrix, and spot metering. > The "pictorgrams" being discussed are the exposure mode pictograms to give > non photographers instant settings for those situations for which they > can't remember a few simple concepts. (As I clarified a couple posts > ago). Well, there are pictograms and pictograms. Now you seem to saying *some* pictograms are contemptible because they're "to give non photographers instant settings for those situations for which they can't remember a few simple concepts," while other pictograms are okay. This is quite different from your original insistence that *any* camera with pictograms must be a "P&S" or at best a "glorified P&S." > A flower. A face. A figure with sun behind it. Things a photographer > doesn't need a pictorgram for; things a photographer simply sets correctly > in terms of aperture, speed and fill flash if required. Those are useful things for photographers as well as those you sniff at as "non photographers." I find those icons useful, and I've been a photography enthusiast for about 55 years. > A close up magnifying glass; a trashcan are _functions_ for which those > pictos are entirely logical. So? They are still just as much pictograms as a flower or anything else that conveys some operational idea to the user. How is a flower meaning "close-up" or a lady's head meaning "portrait" any less "entirely logical" than those icons you approve of? > They have nothing to do with photography but data management, viewing, > etc. The pictograms for the transport (bracketting, volley fire, etc.) > are likewise modes for how the shutter button reacts. I have no objection > to those and, in any case, if you showed them to a non-photgrapher he'd be > as puzzled as could be without recourse to the manual. In some cases yes, in other cases certainly not. What else would a trashcan icon convey to any user than what it means? As for those icons you approve of, for example a magnifying glass with a plus sign, how mysterious would this be to a brand-new inexperienced user? And for how long? Just until he read about it in the manual, or even just pressed it during replay. From that point it would be entirely clear to him and it's unlikely he'd ever forget it. So now he's a real, full-fledged photographer instead of a "non photographer"? >> Touchy, touchy. If you didn't have all those pictograms on your 7D you'd >> be at a serious disadvantage -- but of course it's possible you never use [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "weight" switch, like other functional switches, presents functional and > useful symbols. They *all* "present functional and useful symbols." Every icon has something to do with the operation of the camera. It's just that some represent shortcuts that you don't approve of. You apparently believe that doing every step individually and separately implies some higher, more arcane, more prestigious way of going about the business of taking photographs, and this is important to you for its own sake. > It does not present a little rubber ducky or smiling sun to suggest what I > should use it for. Well, I can't imagine a "little rubber ducky" icon -- maybe that would be for using the camera in an underwater case or something? > That is what the "pictograms" on the metering mode dial are for: non > thinking photographers with a camera. Glorified P&S' in other words. The > A100 has 6 such modes on the exposure mode dial. P&S. Any camera with that dial on it cannot be "point and shoot" in anything remotely like the original, and still current, meaning of that term. Real point-and-shoot cameras don't offer different exposure modes. As soon as you add any sort of user controls over exposure, etc., you have taken the instrument out of the point-and-shoot category. Take a look at a Konica Big Mini, for example. There's a point-and-shoot for you. Icons? A couple, self timer and infinity focus. Exposure mode dial? No. Metering mode dial or switch? No. Any user controls at all over details of exposure or focus? No. Even something with a flower pictogram? No. That's what P&S means, Alan. Something you just point and shoot, no controls at all. Neil >>> "Alan Browne" <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 133 lines] > No. That's what P&S means, Alan. Something you just point and shoot, no > controls at all. There's a reason for the pictograms by the way, which incidentally are not normally called "pictograms" but "icons". The alternative is to make dozens of different shells with writing in Arabic, Hebrew, English, German, Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, Sanskrit, Swahili, and every other language on Earth. A picture of a flower is universal. Now, one could put the word "macro" in its place with the assumption that anybody who cares about photography could learn the English word as well as he could learn the icon, but in the real world it's not quite that simple--someone whose written language uses a Roman-derived character set could probably deal with it easily, but someone who doesn't would have as much trouble with it as a typical American would have with, say, Hebrew. > Neil Signature--John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) [ . . . ] >>> That is what the "pictograms" on the metering mode dial are for: non >>> thinking photographers with a camera. Glorified P&S' in other words. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > There's a reason for the pictograms by the way, which incidentally are not > normally called "pictograms" but "icons". Yes. Alan prefers "pictograms," and while non-standard in this usage I don't think it's incorrect. I've used both terms interchangeably here. > The alternative is to make > dozens of different shells with writing in Arabic, Hebrew, English, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > with it easily, but someone who doesn't would have as much trouble with it > as a typical American would have with, say, Hebrew. That's a good point, although those people do have to cope with our language and character set to some extent anyway, since there are words and abbreviations in English on the cameras too. Neil > Well, there are pictograms and pictograms. Now you seem to saying *some* > pictograms are contemptible because they're "to give non photographers > instant settings for those situations for which they can't remember a few > simple concepts," while other pictograms are okay. This is quite different > from your original insistence that *any* camera with pictograms must be a > "P&S" or at best a "glorified P&S." I'm bored with this. The original context was exposure aids (what to use when it's sunny/people/backlit). You've cleaved (several meaning here) this to mean what you want. The basic fact: a camera that has pictograms in lieu of exposure modes (Aperture, Speed, etc.) is not for serious photographers. The other symbols you refer to are fine. They are functional meanings, not aids to people with poor memory or skills. Such symbols have been on cameras for decades. Only when P&S infection came to 35mm for things like "sunny"/"people"/"backlit" did some 'lean' 35mm cameras become glorified P&S. Like the Maxxum 5, 5D and A100. Cheers, Alan. Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. >> Well, there are pictograms and pictograms. Now you seem to saying *some* >> pictograms are contemptible because they're "to give non photographers [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > when it's sunny/people/backlit). You've cleaved (several meaning here) > this to mean what you want. Well, I did change the subject title to "More photo semiliteracy." So that's what this sub-thread has been about. > The basic fact: a camera that has pictograms in lieu of exposure modes > (Aperture, Speed, etc.) is not for serious photographers. You can define "serious photographers" any way you like to suit yourself. You can say "serious photographers" always put their left legs in their pants first, and you may hold on to that definition as long as you like. You just can't reasonably expect everyone else to agree with your personal opinion (which has changed from post to post anyway) as to what camera features exactly make a "serious photographer." Obviously, "serious" is a relative term, not an absolute, and I have no doubt at all that someone may be a serious photographer who only uses an ultracompact camera -- with icons galore. You evidently would regard such a person as a "non photographer" and "not serious" on the basis of his camera alone. I think most people would prefer to gauge his ability, talent and degree of seriousness by his photographs. But you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Neil . You > just can't reasonably expect everyone else to agree with your personal > opinion (which has changed from post to post anyway Only in your twisted opinion which drifted hugely from what was meant: The little "pit-churs" on the dials of flowers and heads and sunshine so the photo-illiterati (guess who?) have a way to "get their shots". Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. > . You >> just can't reasonably expect everyone else to agree with your personal [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > little "pit-churs" on the dials of flowers and heads and sunshine so the > photo-illiterati (guess who?) have a way to "get their shots". Icons are icons (or "pictograms" as you prefer). You originally said that ANY camera with pictograms is a P&S (emphasis added). When I pointed out that your own camera has plenty of them, you changed your mind about this. Neil >>. You >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > ANY camera with pictograms is a P&S (emphasis added). When I pointed out > that your own camera has plenty of them, you changed your mind about this. Context Neil, context. Icons (pictograms) having to do with functions are one thing; pictograms of _subjects_ to help the faux-tographer is for P&S. Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch. >Touchy, touchy. The 5D and the A100 are glorified P&S cameras. >Any camera with pictograms (flowers, etc) is a P&S. your opinion... >It comes down to the LACK of *photographic* control on body buttons, >dials, levers, switches, etc. The camera forces awkward >button-hold-while-turning-dial and menu diving for somewhat routine >photographic tasks. NO it doesn't! No need to hold anything, just touch any button and let go, turn the dial at your leisure. Everything shows up on one page on the screen, very little menu diving needed. P mode is like the D70, turn the dial to change combinations, touch the +/- and dial in the compensation - shown on the back in BIG digits! Not easy to miss like the D70. I find it MUCH faster and convenient to find items then with the Nikon 30 item deep menus. > Try the 5 or 5D in manual exposure mode for a while. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >which is why I am critical of what Sony has achieved ... or in the case >of the A100, what they haven't ... For $999 ? Show me better... I'd say they achieved quite a lot! Sure this is a 'toy' for serious pros, but I'm sure Sony will improve once they get their feet wet in this business. The bottom line is - what do the pictures look like and how hard was it to take them? We'll see.... >Cheers, >Alan. >>Touchy, touchy. The 5D and the A100 are glorified P&S cameras. >>Any camera with pictograms (flowers, etc) is a P&S. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the dial at your leisure. Everything shows up on one page on the screen, very > littl |
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