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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / July 2006

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Question regarding 1.5x lens interpretation

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Sheldon - 13 Jul 2006 04:19 GMT
Have I got this right?

If I was shooting 35mm, or full frame digital, a 50mm would be a "normal"
lens, and I would probably use an 85mm or 105mm for portraits (I realize
this is a bit subjective, I, personally, really like an 85mm 1.8 for
portraits).  You wouldn't use a wide-angle because of "distortion."

When shooting digital you can apply the same rules multiplying the lens's
focal length by 1.5.  Even though a 50mm is still a 50mm, regardless of the
camera it's put on, because you would have to move back to get the same
framing in your image distortion is reduced, therefore a 50mm lens on a 1.5x
DSLR really does act just like a 75mm on a film camera, making it a good,
but not necessarily ideal portrait lens.  In other words, the distortion you
would get on a 35mm camera is reduced to that of a 75mm lens because you
have to move back from your subject.

If I loved my 85mm on my 35mm camera for portraits, I should  be just as
happy with my new 60mm lens for portraits (1.5x 60 = 90mm).

Do I have this right?

Sheldon
Steve Wolfe - 13 Jul 2006 05:42 GMT
> If I was shooting 35mm, or full frame digital, a 50mm would be a "normal"
> lens, and I would probably use an 85mm or 105mm for portraits (I realize
> this is a bit subjective, I, personally, really like an 85mm 1.8 for
> portraits).  You wouldn't use a wide-angle because of "distortion."

 "Perspective" is a more correct term than "distortion", but yes, you're
correct.

> When shooting digital you can apply the same rules multiplying the lens's
> focal length by 1.5.  Even though a 50mm is still a 50mm, regardless of
> the camera it's put on, because you would have to move back to get the
> same framing in your image distortion is reduced, therefore a 50mm lens on
> a 1.5x DSLR really does act just like a 75mm on a film camera, making it a
> good, but not necessarily ideal portrait lens.

 You're correct.  It doesn't act *completely* like a 75mm lens, having some
minor differences to quibble about (like a longer DOF), but in terms of
perspective, you are correct.

> If I loved my 85mm on my 35mm camera for portraits, I should  be just as
> happy with my new 60mm lens for portraits (1.5x 60 = 90mm).
>
> Do I have this right?

 Yes.  One of my friends does all of portraits with his EF-S 60mm f/2.8
macro.  That's a VERY sharp lens.

steve
Evan Platt - 13 Jul 2006 18:09 GMT
>  You're correct.  It doesn't act *completely* like a 75mm lens, having some
>minor differences to quibble about (like a longer DOF), but in terms of
>perspective, you are correct.

I was told it's 2x - ie my Olympus E-500 14-45 is 28-90, and the
40-150 is 80-300?

Evan
Gisle Hannemyr - 13 Jul 2006 20:09 GMT
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 22:42:09 -0600, "Steve Wolfe" <anx@codon.com>

>> You're correct.  It doesn't act *completely* like a 75mm lens,
>> having some minor differences to quibble about (like a longer DOF),
>> but in terms of perspective, you are correct.
>
> I was told it's 2x - ie my Olympus E-500 14-45 is 28-90, and the
> 40-150 is 80-300?

It depends on the sensor size.  With Olympus, youdo indeed multiply by
2x to get the 35 mm "equivalent" FOV.  With Sigma, it is 1.7x.  With
Canon it is 1.0x, 1.3x or 1.6x (depending upon model).  And with the
rest (Nikon, Pentax/Samsung, Sony/K-M), it is 1.5x.
Signature

- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://hannemyr.com/photo/ ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill - 13 Jul 2006 05:44 GMT
>If I was shooting 35mm, or full frame digital, a 50mm would be a "normal"
>lens, and I would probably use an 85mm or 105mm for portraits (I realize
>this is a bit subjective, I, personally, really like an 85mm 1.8 for
>portraits).  You wouldn't use a wide-angle because of "distortion."

Actually I learned not too long ago that perspective is relative to
distance or position from the subject, not focal length, so a wide angle
lense can be used if you're properly positioned from the portrait
subject.

Based on my years of 35mm film lenses, I had wrongly presumed that the
"distortion" of a wide angle and the "compression" of a telephoto were
universal, but it depends greatly on the subject distance.

Google "lens perspective" and you should find lots of info.

>When shooting digital you can apply the same rules multiplying the lens's
>focal length by 1.5.  Even though a 50mm is still a 50mm, regardless of the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>would get on a 35mm camera is reduced to that of a 75mm lens because you
>have to move back from your subject.

It turns out that a 50mm f/1.8 is a decent portrait lense on a DSLR. The
effective field of view crop is similar to a 75-80mm lense, and due to
the large aperture it has a very shallow depth of field.

>If I loved my 85mm on my 35mm camera for portraits, I should  be just as
>happy with my new 60mm lens for portraits (1.5x 60 = 90mm).

Yes.

>Do I have this right?

I believe so.
Sheldon - 13 Jul 2006 06:20 GMT
>>If I was shooting 35mm, or full frame digital, a 50mm would be a "normal"
>>lens, and I would probably use an 85mm or 105mm for portraits (I realize
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> I believe so.

Thanks all for the confirmation.  The 60mm lens is much lighter and smaller
than my 80~200, so I'm going to start using it for portraits and see what
happens.  I also like to stay fairly close to my subject, so this should
work out well for me.
David Dyer-Bennet - 13 Jul 2006 14:19 GMT
> Have I got this right?
>
> If I was shooting 35mm, or full frame digital, a 50mm would be a "normal"
> lens, and I would probably use an 85mm or 105mm for portraits (I realize
> this is a bit subjective, I, personally, really like an 85mm 1.8 for
> portraits).  You wouldn't use a wide-angle because of "distortion."

Yes.  Allowing, as you say, for personal preference and such, those
are valid rules of thumb for the 35mm film / full-frame digital
domain.

> When shooting digital you can apply the same rules multiplying the lens's
> focal length by 1.5.

When shooting a Nikon 1.5x crop factor body or a Canon 1.6x crop
factor body.  The 4/3 system has something like a 2.0x crop factor.
Canon also makes 1.3x crop bodies (the 1DmkII currently).

> Even though a 50mm is still a 50mm, regardless of the camera it's
> put on, because you would have to move back to get the same framing
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> distortion you would get on a 35mm camera is reduced to that of a
> 75mm lens because you have to move back from your subject.

Yes.  The factor is best thought of as changing the field of view,
really.

Note that the depth of field you get at various apertures will *not*
be what you expect, quite.

> If I loved my 85mm on my 35mm camera for portraits, I should be just
> as happy with my new 60mm lens for portraits (1.5x 60 = 90mm).

Pretty much; though I note in passing that people have strong
preferences among lenses of the same focal length soemtimes.
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Gisle Hannemyr - 13 Jul 2006 17:23 GMT
> Have I got this right?
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Do I have this right?

Yes.

If you are interested in how the "perspective" thing with shorter
focal lenghts works out in practice, take a look at this webpage,
for a pictorial example: http://hannemyr.com/photo/crop.html .
(Scroll down to the section "perspective").
Signature

- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://hannemyr.com/photo/ ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sheldon - 14 Jul 2006 06:39 GMT
Great site.  Those two photos really explain it all.

>> Have I got this right?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> for a pictorial example: http://hannemyr.com/photo/crop.html .
> (Scroll down to the section "perspective").
BobF@home.com - 14 Jul 2006 02:23 GMT
>Have I got this right?
>
>If I was shooting 35mm, or full frame digital, a 50mm would be a "normal"
>lens, and I would probably use an 85mm or 105mm for portraits (I realize
>this is a bit subjective, I, personally, really like an 85mm 1.8 for
>portraits).  You wouldn't use a wide-angle because of "distortion."

The distortion you speak of is the relative distance of objects. Your eye
perceives objects at different distances as being different sizes. If you take a
picture with a lens and all of the objects look the same as if you had used your
eye, you would say the lens has no distance distortion. With a 35mm cam, this is
usually a 50mm lens

If you use a 200mm telephoto, things far away will look bigger. A mountain 10
miles away will look maybe 3 miles away, But your wife, standing 1000 feet from
you, will NOT look 7 miles closer! That's obviously not possible, but she will
look somewhat closer, therefore it can be concluded that the image from a
telephoto is of a scene that does not exist. The distances of objects are all
wrong, and not in a linear fashion, more of a 'percent of' fashion

Now as for the effects of digital 'small size' sensors, it is NOT correct to say
that a 50mm becomes a 75mm on a DSLR. The proper term is "crop factor" - the
small sensor crops off the full view of the lens as compared to film.

So if you use a 50mm lens, you will get a non-distorted distance view just like
your film camera - but the edges are cropped off. It gives the same FRAMING as a
75mm, but that's all.

A 24mm lens is still a wide angle, and will give you distance distortion just
like your film camera, but the edges will be cropped off. It will be the same
size photo as if you used a 36mm lens, but IT IS STILL A 24MM LENS, WITH A
CROPPED END RESULT PHOTO!

So the question for you is - can you get a good portrait with a film camera
using a 60mm lens, that you crop 75%?

The lens will still give you the image you are used to with a film camera, but
you will have to move back to accommodate the new framing of the cropped digital
image,  Will you like the results? You got to try it! Moving back will lesson
the distortion you do get, but maybe you want MORE distortion?

Ponder this:  A 40mm becomes a 60mm on your camera. So does a wide angle lens
become a telephoto?

No, it merely gets cropped.

Bob

PS my Nikon D70 went tits up and is in the shop.  Bummer.

>When shooting digital you can apply the same rules multiplying the lens's
>focal length by 1.5.  Even though a 50mm is still a 50mm, regardless of the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Sheldon
Bill - 14 Jul 2006 04:14 GMT
>>Have I got this right?

Yes, he has it right.

>Now as for the effects of digital 'small size' sensors, it is NOT correct to say
>that a 50mm becomes a 75mm on a DSLR. The proper term is "crop factor" - the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>your film camera - but the edges are cropped off. It gives the same FRAMING as a
>75mm, but that's all.

After some 8+ years with 35mm neg film, I used to think like that too.
But then I was asked to check it out, and after reading about it, and
even testing it for myself, I found I was completely wrong.

While it's true digital presents FOV crop factors, the perspective
changes relative to _distance_ from the subject, not focal length.

The only thing that changes is magnification factor, not perspective.

>A 24mm lens is still a wide angle, and will give you distance distortion

Actually no it won't.

Have a read through this page, especially the "Perspective" section:

http://hannemyr.com/photo/crop.html

You'll find your presumptions about 35mm and digital are incorrect, just
as mine were incorrect. A 50mm makes a fine portrait lense on a 1.5/1.6x
FOV crop factor DSLR.

And if you don't believe me...test it out for yourself. I did, and I was
surprised by the results.

:-)
 
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