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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / July 2006

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Filter advice needed

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Arild P. - 09 Jul 2006 11:38 GMT
I've been reading about filters and believe I might need a couple.
I'm vaguely familiar with circular-polarizing filters as I had one with
my previous 35mm camera and also with my digital camcorder. I used them
to remove reflections from windows (e.g. made it possible for me to
take pictures through a bus or train window) and also get a deep,
intense "exotic and tropical" look when shooting a beach/sea. Instant
postcard shots!!!

Back then I just bought a reasonably priced one, but from a reputable
brand (can't remember if it was Habuba or B+H as I also bought a
"protection" glass type "filter" at the time), but have since then
heard that there's a great deal of difference between filters. Please
explain the differences and what I should be looking for.

Secondly, having experimented a lot with my newly purchased Canon Rebel
XT/EOS-350D I've run into the exposure issue when taking say sunset
shots, where the sunset is correctly exposed, but everything else just
becomes a solhouette or very dark. I've heard about filters that can
darken parts of the image (in this example the sunset sky) while the
rest is left untouched, resulting in an overall image which is easier
to find a good exposure for.
Are these neutral density or graduated filters? At least that's what
the luminous landscape "Understanding digital blending" article
(http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/digital-blending.shtml)
talks about.
But the same article explains that you need to layer several filters on
top of each other, use filter holders etc. I never knew it was that
complicated! I'm sure I've seen a type of filter in the stores where
half of it is dark and the other half is transparent. What fialters are
these?

I assume they work in much the same way as a circular polarizing filter
where you (after having focused) rotate it until you get the result you
want, then shoot.

Lastly, my lens is a Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-4.5 which has a 72mm filter-size
ring. I'm planning to soon get a second lens; a Canon 70-300 f/4-5.6 IS
USM which has a 58mm filter-ring. From what I've heard I then have to
buy a filter which fits the widest lens (i.e. 72mm), then buy an
additional "adapter ring" for the narrower lens (i.e. 72mm -> 58mm).
That way I don't have to buy a filter/filters for each lens.
But in case I get serious about this hobby and buy even more lenses,
then end up with a lens with a bigger filter size than 72mm, would it
be a smarter move for me to start off with a filter in the biggest
possible size (is that 77mm for Canon/canon-compatible lenses?), and
buy an adapter ring for both lenses?
rasilan - 09 Jul 2006 16:40 GMT
With any digital camera and filters you must make and use a custam white
balance to get the use of the filters. eseast way to do his is put the
filter on then take a pic of a white paper in the light conditions you will
be shooting then goint white bal. and set the pic as white. and to darken
just part of the pic and not the rest of the pic it is a grad. nutral
density filter
Bill - 09 Jul 2006 17:28 GMT
>I've been reading about filters and believe I might need a couple.
>I'm vaguely familiar with circular-polarizing filters as I had one with
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>intense "exotic and tropical" look when shooting a beach/sea. Instant
>postcard shots!!!

I rarely use filters with digital cameras because most of the time you
can get the effect you want when post-processing the digital image. If
you want deep blues in the sky and water, you can easily tweak the
saturation to get the perfect image afterwards - no guess work.

There are exceptions. The polarizer and gradient which I have and use as
needed to reduce glare and over exposure scenarios.

>Back then I just bought a reasonably priced one, but from a reputable
>brand (can't remember if it was Habuba or B+H as I also bought a
>"protection" glass type "filter" at the time), but have since then
>heard that there's a great deal of difference between filters. Please
>explain the differences and what I should be looking for.

You want filters that are well made with good multicoated optical glass.
The two most respected names around my area are B&W and Hoya.

Canon and Nikon filters are good, but overpriced for what you get. Optex
and Tiffen are cheap and are not recommended for serious work.

>Secondly, having experimented a lot with my newly purchased Canon Rebel
>XT/EOS-350D I've run into the exposure issue when taking say sunset
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>to find a good exposure for.
>Are these neutral density or graduated filters?

Yes. A graduated filter is darker at the top to block out brighter light
and still allow the lower portion to expose properly as well.

>I assume they work in much the same way as a circular polarizing filter
>where you (after having focused) rotate it until you get the result you
>want, then shoot.

Yes, and that's a good reason why you want lenses that have non-rotating
front elements.

Every time you re-focus, you have to adjust the filter to get the proper
effect. And with some cheaper lenses, merely adjusting the filter can
move the lense out of prime focus.

>Lastly, my lens is a Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-4.5 which has a 72mm filter-size
>ring. I'm planning to soon get a second lens; a Canon 70-300 f/4-5.6 IS
>USM which has a 58mm filter-ring. From what I've heard I then have to
>buy a filter which fits the widest lens (i.e. 72mm), then buy an
>additional "adapter ring" for the narrower lens (i.e. 72mm -> 58mm).
>That way I don't have to buy a filter/filters for each lens.

Yes.
Arild P. - 10 Jul 2006 10:37 GMT
> >I've been reading about filters and believe I might need a couple.

> You want filters that are well made with good multicoated optical glass.
> The two most respected names around my area are B&W and Hoya.

I'm pretty clueless at the moment, so do you have any specific series
or model numbers?
I wouldn't know how to distinguish a good filter from a bad one.
Then again I assume this whole thing is like choosing lenses, which
I've asked about here a few weeks ago. Pros tell me that only "L"
lenses are good enough while newbies tell me I'm fine with the
excellent kit lens. I spent weeks looking through reviews of various
lenses, keeping in mind what *I* needed the lens for and what would be
good enough for *my* use, so I bought the Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-4.5 lens
which I'm very happy with.
Unfortunately I don't have the time at the moment to spend as much time
searching for suitable filters, but suffice to say that I want good
quality, but I'm not prepared to pay through the roof for something
that is equivelant to "L" quality in lens terms, just because that's
what the pros use.
I'm starting out with photography (I've taken snapshots for years, but
it's only recently that I've become really interested and serious about
the hobby, spending time and effort learning things from the start),
but what I buy should be quality and allow me to advance to the next
level. If I ever do become a pro some day I'll probably reconsider all
my equipment anyway.

> Canon and Nikon filters are good, but overpriced for what you get. Optex
> and Tiffen are cheap and are not recommended for serious work.

Good to know.
What about other brands such as Hakuba, Sigma and Cokin?

> >I've heard about filters that can
> >darken parts of the image (in this example the sunset sky) while the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Yes. A graduated filter is darker at the top to block out brighter light
> and still allow the lower portion to expose properly as well.

"Graduated filters" and "neutral density filters" are just two names
for the same type of thing?

> >I assume they work in much the same way as a circular polarizing filter
> >where you (after having focused) rotate it until you get the result you
> >want, then shoot.
>
> Yes, and that's a good reason why you want lenses that have non-rotating
> front elements.

My Sigma 17-70 is nice that way. The front element doesn't rotate.
But apparently the second lens I'm about to buy (Canon 70-300mm f/4-5.6
IS USM) does have a rotating front element.
I've done a lot of research and it seems this is a good lens for my use
and price-range. Is it a minor inconvenience or a problem that the
front-element will rotate?
I don't see any suitable equivelants to that lens (yes, I've considered
the 70-200mm f/4L, but it's 100mm less (and yes, I know about the
extender, but then we're talking about a lot more money in total
again), and it doesn't have IS which will come in handy when not
dragging a tripod along on my trips).

> Every time you re-focus, you have to adjust the filter to get the proper
> effect. And with some cheaper lenses, merely adjusting the filter can
> move the lense out of prime focus.

Hmmmm... I can see that the latter might be a problem, and not just an
inconvenience. Anyone reading this who's got a Canon 70-300 IS USM and
use filters?
madhobbit.geo@yahoo.com - 10 Jul 2006 16:11 GMT
> "Graduated filters" and "neutral density filters" are just two names
> for the same type of thing?

Nope. A neutral density filter is one that darkens the scene - that is,
it blocks light, but it blocks all colours equally (hence the neutral).
A graduated filter is any filter that's uneven - the amount of
filtering changes gradually. It's not a specific type of filter; it's a
property of the filter. What you're looking for is a "graduated neutral
density" filter - a neutral density filter that is darker on one side
than on the other. (That said, if you ask for a graduated filter, most
people will assume you mean graduated neutral density...but if you just
ask for a neutral density filter, you'll get a non-graduated one, which
is not what you want.)

> > >I assume they work in much the same way as a circular polarizing filter
> > >where you (after having focused) rotate it until you get the result you
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> inconvenience. Anyone reading this who's got a Canon 70-300 IS USM and
> use filters?

It's...a bit of a pain, but nothing terrible...depending. I use a
polarizer on the 18-55 kit lens as well as by 75-300 IS USM; both have
rotating front elements. In general, what I do is:
- Focus
- Adjust the polarizer
- Focus again and take the picture

This works, because adjusting the polarizer does knock the focus off a
bit, but not very much (using autofocus, the front elements don't
rotate very easily). When I re-focus, the polarizer will often be
twisted slightly, but not to any degree that actually makes a
difference in the image.

However...if I were using manual focus for these images, I could see it
being a real problem, because adjusting the polarizer would have a much
bigger impact on the focus. Also, I have no experience with graduated
netural density filters, but I suspect the slight adjustment during
re-focusing might be more critical with them than it is with the
polarizer. The polarizer can twist a couple degrees without having much
visible effect, but getting an unlevel horizon line on the Grad ND
might be a bigger deal.

- Darryl
Bill - 10 Jul 2006 22:52 GMT
>> You want filters that are well made with good multicoated optical glass.
>> The two most respected names around my area are B&W and Hoya.
>
>I'm pretty clueless at the moment, so do you have any specific series
>or model numbers?
>I wouldn't know how to distinguish a good filter from a bad one.

Mostly by name, in your case. I use Hoya filters because they cost a bit
less than B&W but seem to work just as well.

>Then again I assume this whole thing is like choosing lenses, which
>I've asked about here a few weeks ago. Pros tell me that only "L"
>lenses are good enough while newbies tell me I'm fine with the
>excellent kit lens.

The cheaper lenses might be "good enough" for your needs.

>What about other brands such as Hakuba, Sigma and Cokin?

I wouldn't use a Sigma or Cokin unless it was thrown at me.

:-)

I have no experience with Hakuba filters, if they even make them.

>> Yes. A graduated filter is darker at the top to block out brighter light
>> and still allow the lower portion to expose properly as well.
>
>"Graduated filters" and "neutral density filters" are just two names
>for the same type of thing?

Not really. A neutral density filter is one that has a neutral effect on
the colours, and it darkens uniformly. While a graduated filter darkens
with a gradient.

You can have a graduated neutral density filter, which is often used for
something like a sunset photo to darken the top half of the scene and
allow the foreground in the bottom half to expose properly.

>My Sigma 17-70 is nice that way. The front element doesn't rotate.
>But apparently the second lens I'm about to buy (Canon 70-300mm f/4-5.6
>IS USM) does have a rotating front element.
>I've done a lot of research and it seems this is a good lens for my use
>and price-range. Is it a minor inconvenience or a problem that the
>front-element will rotate?

You'll have to tweak it each time you focus, perhaps two times for each
focus.
Arild P. - 11 Jul 2006 00:26 GMT
> >Then again I assume this whole thing is like choosing lenses, which
> >I've asked about here a few weeks ago. Pros tell me that only "L"
> >lenses are good enough while newbies tell me I'm fine with the
> >excellent kit lens.
>
> The cheaper lenses might be "good enough" for your needs.

And the same for filters?
What kind of differences are there between high quality, excellent and
expensive filters compared to "good quality", reasonably priced
filters?
I would think that expensive filters don't block as much light as the
cheaper ones do, but are there other differences?

> >What about other brands such as Hakuba, Sigma and Cokin?
>
> I wouldn't use a Sigma or Cokin unless it was thrown at me.

Hehe :-)
That bad, eh?

> You can have a graduated neutral density filter, which is often used for
> something like a sunset photo to darken the top half of the scene and
> allow the foreground in the bottom half to expose properly.

Yes! That's exactly what I'm looking for!!
I'd love to get some nice sunset shots, but without turning the bottom
part into all-silhouettes.
Any specific recommendations for such a filter?
Bill - 11 Jul 2006 01:27 GMT
>> The cheaper lenses might be "good enough" for your needs.
>
>And the same for filters?

Oops...substitute "lenses" with "filters" in my line above.

:-)

>What kind of differences are there between high quality, excellent and
>expensive filters compared to "good quality", reasonably priced
>filters?
>I would think that expensive filters don't block as much light as the
>cheaper ones do, but are there other differences?

Low reflections, consistency of coatings, and optical clarity are the
main reasons to buy good filters.

Ideally a filter should not add or remove anything to an image, other
than its intended purpose of course.

>> You can have a graduated neutral density filter, which is often used for
>> something like a sunset photo to darken the top half of the scene and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>part into all-silhouettes.
>Any specific recommendations for such a filter?

Just visit a camera shop and have a look at the various offerings.

Something such as a 1 stop light grey graduated neutral density filter
should do the trick.
madhobbit.geo@yahoo.com - 11 Jul 2006 14:50 GMT
> And the same for filters?
> What kind of differences are there between high quality, excellent and
> expensive filters compared to "good quality", reasonably priced
> filters?

Well, that'll depend who you ask.

When I picked up my circular polarizer, I went down to the local photo
shop (one of the better places in the city, though probably not the
best), and asked what my options were. The person I happened to be
talking to was the prototypical grizzled old photographer; the guy
that's been photographing for years, and doesn't care about tests or
specs or technology or anything other than what the final picture
actually looks like. He showed me their range, from their cheapest (an
Optex filter) to their most expensive (B+W, I think), which was about
3x the price. When I asked him what the difference was, he looked at me
and just said "Nothing that the human eye can perceive."

As soon as he said that, one of the other employees, a younger guy with
a DSLR around his neck, piped up and said something to the effect of
"Oh no, I disagree, I've always found that you don't get good results
with anything less than such-and-such a brand." The first guy looked at
him with an expression that said, basically, "When you've been
photographing half as long as I have, then you can tell me what's good
and what's bad."

So...I bought the cheap one. That's all I wanted to spend anyway. Who
was right? Hard to say. I've got no complaints about the performance of
my Optex C-POL, but I've never used a more expensive one, so maybe I
don't know what I'm missing.

> I would think that expensive filters don't block as much light as the
> cheaper ones do, but are there other differences?

Well, the whole point of a neutral-density filter is that you -want- it
to block light. With a cheaper ND filter, the most likely problems
would be more flare (if it's not as well coated), or an uneven colour
cast (though I've also read of expensive filters with this problem).

> > >What about other brands such as Hakuba, Sigma and Cokin?
> >
> > I wouldn't use a Sigma or Cokin unless it was thrown at me.
>
> Hehe :-)
> That bad, eh?

I don't think the aforementioned photo store even stocked these. I
think Optex is as cheap as they'll go.

- Darryl
Arild P. - 12 Jul 2006 02:03 GMT
> > What kind of differences are there between high quality, excellent and
> > expensive filters compared to "good quality", reasonably priced
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> shop (one of the better places in the city, though probably not the
> best), and asked what my options were.
(......cut)

> When I asked him what the difference was, he looked at me
> and just said "Nothing that the human eye can perceive."

(...snip)
> So...I bought the cheap one. That's all I wanted to spend anyway. Who
> was right? Hard to say. I've got no complaints about the performance of
> my Optex C-POL, but I've never used a more expensive one, so maybe I
> don't know what I'm missing.

My thoughts exactly! It's great to meet someone on the same wavelength
:-)
It's sort of like my choice of lens. I don't know what I may be missing
with a more expensive one, but I'm happy with what I've got. Ignorance
is bliss ;-)

To put it the other way round; if you'd gotten the most expensive one
you would probably be happy with the results but you'd never know if
the filter at 1/3 of its price would have been "good enough" for you.

The problem with *total* ignorance however is that you don't know where
to start, which is why i'm asking for advice here.
Bill just pointed out a few things worth taking into consideration:
reflections, consistency of coatings etc. I wouldn't know how to
determine which filter has low reflection and a consistent coating by
looking at the packaging in the store. They all look the same to me.
And most people don't have the money or time to do extensive
testing/comparing before ending up with something they like.

> > I would think that expensive filters don't block as much light as the
> > cheaper ones do, but are there other differences?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> would be more flare (if it's not as well coated), or an uneven colour
> cast (though I've also read of expensive filters with this problem).

True, I want it to block light in half the frame, but the other half
shouldn't be blocked at all.
I guess I was really thinking about the polarizing filter when I wrote
the above.
I've just read however that polarizing filters do in fact block out
some of the light.

I'll take a not of those issues you mention about flare and uneven
cast.

> > > >What about other brands such as Hakuba, Sigma and Cokin?
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I don't think the aforementioned photo store even stocked these. I
> think Optex is as cheap as they'll go.

Someone else recommended that I get Cokin because of their versatility.
I looked up their website and found out what he meant. They have this
"frame" which you get in various sizes, then place the different
filters which consist of a square piece of glass in the frame.
However, I don't see why this is any better than buying "normal"
filters and adapter rings for your other lenses that have a smaller
diameter. Those Cokin filters look rather fragile to me, and without
any metal/plastic around the edges I'd be careful handling them and
possible end up dropping them on the ground. I would also think that
their system is patented meaning I would have to continue buying Cokin
branded filters as opposed to choosing between different brands for
additional filter types I'd need if going for the normal threaded type.

Any reason why I should look into Cokin's system as opposed to normal
filters with ring-adapters (so I can use them with several lenses)?
Bill - 12 Jul 2006 03:22 GMT
>To put it the other way round; if you'd gotten the most expensive one
>you would probably be happy with the results but you'd never know if
>the filter at 1/3 of its price would have been "good enough" for you.

There is only one way to be sure - buy the cheaper stuff and see if it's
good enough for what you want. If it is, great. If not, exchange it.

:-)

>Bill just pointed out a few things worth taking into consideration:
>reflections, consistency of coatings etc. I wouldn't know how to
>determine which filter has low reflection and a consistent coating by
>looking at the packaging in the store. They all look the same to me.

You generally get what you pay for...

>And most people don't have the money or time to do extensive
>testing/comparing before ending up with something they like.

In the beginning I bought a few cheaper filters because I couldn't tell
the difference either, and the salesman probably got a higher commission
talking me into buying the cheaper Tiffen filters.

But after using the camera and filters, and getting the opportunity to
use better filters and lenses through a friend, I realized the
differences.

Granted, they can be subtle in some situations, but the difference is
definitely there.

But...is that difference worth an extra $20 or $30 per filter to you?

I'll say this...for my girlfriend, mom&dad, my brother, several friends,
the answer is a very simple NO. They get 4x6 or 5x7 prints and can't
tell the difference, and that's all they need.

Me...I want more.

>True, I want it to block light in half the frame, but the other half
>shouldn't be blocked at all.
>I guess I was really thinking about the polarizing filter when I wrote
>the above.
>I've just read however that polarizing filters do in fact block out
>some of the light.

With a gradient filter, you generally don't need to worry about how much
or where - the meter will help compensate for you, and you can always
adjust it slightly in post processing if you wanted more or less, or to
change the half-way point.

>Someone else recommended that I get Cokin because of their versatility.

I like the versatility too...just not the quality.
Arild P. - 12 Jul 2006 09:32 GMT
> With a gradient filter, you generally don't need to worry about how much
> or where - the meter will help compensate for you, and you can always
> adjust it slightly in post processing if you wanted more or less, or to
> change the half-way point.

I don't understand how it can't matter how much (how dark) the filter
is, because it'll "equalize" the darkest and brightest parts against
each other, won't it? So the end result will depend on just how bright
the sun is (or the brightest area) in comparison to the darkest area.

However, I believe I read somewhere that a -1 drop on the meter due to
the filter would be good enough and the most versatile filter of this
type for most occasions. How intense did you get yours?
Bill - 12 Jul 2006 22:32 GMT
>However, I believe I read somewhere that a -1 drop on the meter due to
>the filter would be good enough and the most versatile filter of this
>type for most occasions. How intense did you get yours?

Mine is a 1 stop gradient ND. It's dark enough to shoot the sun nicely
for strong sunsets, bright stadium lights, or other similar situations.

I've used it in both horizontal and vertical positions to obtain the
exposure I wanted.
AaronW - 13 Jul 2006 18:33 GMT
> However, I believe I read somewhere that a -1 drop on the meter due to
> the filter would be good enough and the most versatile filter of this
> type for most occasions. How intense did you get yours?

Get the strongest you can find, and it still might not be enough,
that's why people stack multiple filters to make it stronger.

If it is only 1 stop, you might as well not use it, but digitally
brighten your dark scenes 1 stop.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
AaronW - 14 Jul 2006 02:54 GMT
> The problem with *total* ignorance however is that you don't know where
> to start, which is why i'm asking for advice here.
> Bill just pointed out a few things worth taking into consideration:
> reflections, consistency of coatings etc. I wouldn't know how to
> determine which filter has low reflection and a consistent coating by
> looking at the packaging in the store. They all look the same to me.

Just get the cheapest multicoated one you can find. If they do not
cheat you, hopefully they don't waste multicoating on junk.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
David Kelson - 11 Jul 2006 16:50 GMT
> > >I've been reading about filters and believe I might need a couple.
>
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
> inconvenience. Anyone reading this who's got a Canon 70-300 IS USM and
> use filters?
ANYONE ever use Heliopan filters from Germany?  Any thoughts?  Regards,
David
AaronW - 14 Jul 2006 03:54 GMT
> But apparently the second lens I'm about to buy (Canon 70-300mm f/4-5.6
> IS USM) does have a rotating front element.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> again), and it doesn't have IS which will come in handy when not
> dragging a tripod along on my trips).

If you use the tele lens for animals and sports, the f/5.6 may be
already too dim. You probably don't want to block additional 2 stops of
light with a filter.

One alternative is 200/2.8. It is similarly priced. It is up to 2 stops
brighter, which is significant. And the image quality is better.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
babalooixnay@hotmail.com - 11 Jul 2006 15:18 GMT
> Secondly, having experimented a lot with my newly purchased Canon Rebel
> XT/EOS-350D I've run into the exposure issue when taking say sunset
> shots, where the sunset is correctly exposed, but everything else just

Look at the Cokin P size filters for Sunsets.  They are square with
slide in filters.  You can get adaptor rings for various size lenses
and because they slide you can adjust for the horizon depending on
composition.  Graduated ND come in various densities and hardness of
differential zones.  Different brands use different coding for density
but essentially 1 stop, 2 stops, 3 stops, etc.  Zones can be hard, soft
etc. for the transition from ND to clear.  Straight NDs are for when
you have a bright scene but want a slow shutter beyond your cameras
range, e.g. soft water movement in bright light.

The circular polarizer is necessary for anti-glare and the circular
aspect is critical for auto focus.  For anything else you can do it in
post-processing with digital
Arild P. - 12 Jul 2006 02:15 GMT
> > Secondly, having experimented a lot with my newly purchased Canon Rebel
> > XT/EOS-350D I've run into the exposure issue when taking say sunset
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> and because they slide you can adjust for the horizon depending on
> composition.

You mean they just don't slide in the "frame" and lock, but they extend
*past* the frame meaning they can be moved up and down to pass
different parts of the filter through to the lens?

> Graduated ND come in various densities and hardness of
> differential zones.  Different brands use different coding for density
> but essentially 1 stop, 2 stops, 3 stops, etc.  Zones can be hard, soft
> etc. for the transition from ND to clear.

I think I have a reply to my own question earlier about why Cokin
filters might be preferred over "normal" filters; you can stack several
filters in one holder/frame, combining the properties of many different
filters.
I can see how this can come in handy with neutral density filters where
you want to freely define where the darkening occurs.
But apart for the versatility I can also see myself spending lots of
time with the filters (and also a lot more to drag around) instead of
taking pictures ;-)

Maybe I just need something simple for now, even though it might mean
to start all over again if I get to a more professional stage some day.

> The circular polarizer is necessary for anti-glare and the circular
> aspect is critical for auto focus.  For anything else you can do it in
> post-processing with digital

There's also something called a "linear polarizer". What are the
differences between the two?

I agree that the rest can probably done in Photoshop (colours, bokeh
etc.) but not the polarizing and darkening of a section in order to get
a more even exposure.
Apart from the gradient filter I might see myself getting a neutral
density filter for snow and white-sand beach shots.

Now that I know what I need I just need to figure out the brand/model
and specs ;-)
Arild P. - 12 Jul 2006 13:49 GMT
I've had a look at the Hoya website and besides the usual polarizing
filters (it seems I need the *circular* polarizing filter as opposed to
a "linear" polarizing filter according to their page:
http://www.hoyafilter.com/products/hoya/gf-04.html), but I came across
something they call a "UV-PL-Cir filter"
(http://www.hoyafilter.com/products/hoya/gf-05.html) which is a hybrid
between a circular polarizer and an ultra-violet filter, said to remove
haze from outdoor pictures in addition to being a normal polarizing
filter.
Is this a better solution than the normal PL-Cir filter?
I haven't found any prices yet, but I assume it's more expensive than
the plain PL_Cir filter.

I couldn't find any graduated neutral-density filters at their site.

I also read somewhere that when buying a filter you should try to find
ones with a thread at both sides so an additional filter can be
attached on top of it if needed. Sounds useful.
jeremy - 12 Jul 2006 14:25 GMT
> I've had a look at the Hoya website and besides the usual polarizing
> filters (it seems I need the *circular* polarizing filter as opposed to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> haze from outdoor pictures in addition to being a normal polarizing
> filter.

On film cameras, polarizers had the potential to yield dramatic results by
darkening skies and by eliminating reflections from areas such as water
surfaces and window glass.  Most of the TTL exposure systems are fooled by
linear polarizers, and the recommendation has been, for a long time, to use
circular polarizers.  I have used linear polarizers on my film cameras
without problems, but that may have been because negative film has a wide
tolerance for exposure variations.

You'd be better off using a circular polarizer on a DSLR, just to be certain
that your exposures are perfect.

UV is another matter.  We know that, even though ultra-violet light is
beyond the range that the human eye can see, that is not the case for many
film emulsions.  Film see UV light as fog.  Color emulsions often show UV as
a bluish fog.  So it is advantageous to filter it out.

But with modern multicoated lenses, the coatings themselves filter out UV
light, making a UV filter unnecessary.  I use them as protection for the
front elements on my lenses, but I don't notice any difference in the image
quality if I shoot without a UV filter, because my lenses do the UV
filtering anyway.

Another factor is how efficient the UV filter is at removing ultraviolet
light in the first place.  Bob Monaghan's site had a list of which filters
actually were good at filtering UV, and as I recall, the Tiffen filter did a
much better job than other brands.  (Of course, if you are using multicoated
lenses, it may all be a moot point).

What I do not know--and perhaps someone can enlighten us--is whether digital
camera sensors are adversely affected by UV as film is.  I suspect that they
are not, because I've seen no one pushing UV filtration for digital cameras.
You might be just as well of using a standard linear polarizer.

Just be aware that Hoya has three distinct lines of filters.  Their
lowest-quality line uses cheap glass, and may result in image degradation.
They are often put up for sale on eBay at low prices, and people buy them
unaware that they are getting a substandard product.  The fact that the Hoya
brand appears on the package does not of itself indicate high quality.

You can get a lot of information about a number of different filter brands
at this site:

http://www.2filter.com/welcometo.html

Their prices are on the high side, but the site is still an excellent
information resource.

I would recommend that you use only high quality filters if you use them at
all.  Erwin Puts, the Leica specialist, noted that an excellent filter may
introduce up to 2% image degradation, while a cheap filter can negatively
affect image quality by 10%.  If you are using a zoom lens, and have to buy
only a single filter (as opposed to needing multiple filters for several
different lenses), it might as well be a good one.
AaronW - 13 Jul 2006 18:01 GMT
> > I've had a look at the Hoya website and besides the usual polarizing
> > filters (it seems I need the *circular* polarizing filter as opposed to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> > haze from outdoor pictures in addition to being a normal polarizing
> > filter.

Digital is not sensitive to UV.

> On film cameras, polarizers had the potential to yield dramatic results by
> darkening skies and by eliminating reflections from areas such as water
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> You'd be better off using a circular polarizer on a DSLR, just to be certain
> that your exposures are perfect.

But after the exposure, it is easy to check the LCD and histogram, and
adjust exposure to take another shot. It is also easy to do bracketing.

Because the meter is not perfect anyway, without a polarizer you may
need to adjust exposure as well. And because circular polarizer has one
additional film in the filter to degrade picture, I prefer linear
polarizer.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
madhobbit.geo@yahoo.com - 13 Jul 2006 18:25 GMT
> > You'd be better off using a circular polarizer on a DSLR, just to be certain
> > that your exposures are perfect.
>
> But after the exposure, it is easy to check the LCD and histogram, and
> adjust exposure to take another shot. It is also easy to do bracketing.

Sure, but I'd rather get it right the first time.

> Because the meter is not perfect anyway, without a polarizer you may
> need to adjust exposure as well. And because circular polarizer has one
> additional film in the filter to degrade picture, I prefer linear
> polarizer.

And now for something completely ungrounded in science, and based
solely on gut feeling:

I find that my exposure tends to be "better" when my circular polarizer
is on the camera. No, I have not done any tests on this. Nor have I
ever read or heard anyone else say the same thing. I could offer a
couple of wild-guess theories as to why this might be the case, or as
to why I might feel this is the case, but since they're complete
speculation, I won't inflict them upon you. But I do know that, with my
C-POL on the camera, I tend to be happier with the exposure (assuming
I'm letting the camera meter the scene, and I'm not using exposure
compensation).

I've got no experience on how well (or poorly) a linear polarizer works
on an automatic camera. I've heard that, in addition to metering
problems, they can cause problems for autofocus systems (especially as
light levels drop). Again, I've never used one, so I can't back that
up.

- Darryl
babalooixnay@hotmail.com - 13 Jul 2006 18:54 GMT
> I find that my exposure tends to be "better" when my circular polarizer
> is on the camera. No, I have not done any tests on this. Nor have I
> ever read or heard anyone else say the same thing. I could offer a
> couple of wild-guess theories as to why this might be the case,

Check the tolerance specs on your camera, plus or minus one third of a
stop for meters is pretty typical.  If your meter was reading one third
too bright the polarizer might bring it right down to zero.  My meter
was one third too dark and I had dialed in a compensation factor.  When
I added a new, brighter focusing screen I got lucky and ended up with
zero also.  Just depends what side of the tolerance you're on.
AaronW - 13 Jul 2006 23:57 GMT
> > > You'd be better off using a circular polarizer on a DSLR, just to be certain
> > > that your exposures are perfect.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> I'm letting the camera meter the scene, and I'm not using exposure
> compensation).

It is probably because that the polarizer filtered out the strong
reflections that would throw off the meter. In this respect, linear
polarizer would perform as well.

I did not say that linear polarizer results in a more accurate
exposure. Depending on the filter angle, sometimes linear gets the same
exposure as circular, sometimes it is up to 1 stop off. I often adjust
exposure after the shot, and the meter is not perfect anyway, and I
might even want a bracket shot at 1 stop off, so it is not a problem
for me.

Because of the additional film in the circular polarizer, it can
degrade picture, flare, color, etc. And because of the interaction of
the circular polarized light and the mirror/prism of the viewfinder,
the color you see in the viewfinder may not be the same as the sensor
gets when the mirror gets out of the way. I saw this problem of
circular polarizer and switched to linear polarizer.

If you seldom adjust exposure or do bracketing, if you value
convenience over slight difference of picture quality, you may prefer
circular polarizer.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
Arild P. - 16 Jul 2006 02:57 GMT
> Because of the additional film in the circular polarizer, it can
> degrade picture, flare, color, etc.

Can you please explain (in layman's terms) what the practical
differences between a circular and a linear polarizing filter is?
All I want is to be able to shoot through windows (e.g. remove any
reflection) and as an added bonus, get that "tropical" effect when
shooting beaches.
Jeremy Nixon - 16 Jul 2006 04:40 GMT
> Can you please explain (in layman's terms) what the practical
> differences between a circular and a linear polarizing filter is?

The practical difference is that, if you use a digital SLR, you must use
a circular polarizer.  A linear one will interfere with the autofocus.

There is no difference whatsoever in the effect of the filter.

Signature

Jeremy  |  jeremy@exit109.com

Arild P. - 16 Jul 2006 11:27 GMT
> > Can you please explain (in layman's terms) what the practical
> > differences between a circular and a linear polarizing filter is?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> There is no difference whatsoever in the effect of the filter.

So why is AaronW advocating the linear polarizer filter when this is a
*digital* SLR group and you can't/shouldn't use those, but only a
*circular* polarizer as you say?
Perhaps AaronW can reply to this.
J. Clarke - 16 Jul 2006 14:24 GMT
>> > Can you please explain (in layman's terms) what the practical
>> > differences between a circular and a linear polarizing filter is?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> *digital* SLR group and you can't/shouldn't use those, but only a
> *circular* polarizer as you say?

Because this is USENET and if someone says it's a bad idea to put your hand
in a cage of rabid, starving wildcats someone else will expound at length
on why he's full of it.

If you google "autofocus polarizer" you'll find quite a lot of discussion.
Bottom line is that if you use a meter and manual focus then you can use a
linear polarizer but any advantage in image quality from doing so will be
very small.

> Perhaps AaronW can reply to this.

Signature

--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Greg - 16 Jul 2006 17:46 GMT
> >> > Can you please explain (in layman's terms) what the practical
> >> > differences between a circular and a linear polarizing filter is?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> > Perhaps AaronW can reply to this.

I don't know about other peoples experiences or cameras but I have found
the linear PL I have actually works with my D70 and 18-70mm lens in
manual mode but with AF on. I was surprised given all the hype and given
the price of a CP its at least worth a look at the local camera store to
find out whether one's camera will function properly.
Signature

Reality-Is finding that perfect picture
and never looking back.

www.gregblankphoto.com

madhobbit.geo@yahoo.com - 16 Jul 2006 18:52 GMT
> > Because of the additional film in the circular polarizer, it can
> > degrade picture, flare, color, etc.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> reflection) and as an added bonus, get that "tropical" effect when
> shooting beaches.

On the simplest level: A linear polarizer consists of a single element:
a polarizing screen. A circular polarizer has a second element -
something called a quarter-wave plate. It sits between the polarizing
screen and the lens.

The polarizing screen is what gives you the visual effects: blocked
reflections, darker sky, etc. It's the same in both types of
polarizers. The difference between a linear and circular polarizer is
quarter-wave plate exists solely to make sure that your autofocus and
auto-metering systems work properly.

The (simplified) physics behind it: All light waves have an
orientation. A particular light wave coming towards you might be
oriented up/down, or left/right, or diagonally, or whatever. The
polarizing screen can be thought of as a bunch of very narrow parallel
slits, that only let through light waves that have a particular
orientation. (This is not quite true, but it's Good Enough (tm) for
now).

In a room lit by, say, an incandescent light bulb, the light waves are
oriented in all sorts of directions, so a polarizer blocks some, and
lets others through, evenly across the whole scene. The effect:
Everything gets a little darker. In this case, there's not much
difference between a polarizer and a non-graduated neutral density
filter.

However, in an outdoor scene, the light coming from the sky is strongly
polarized: the light waves tend to be all oriented the same way. By
rotating your polarizer to be perpendicular to them, you can block a
lot of them out. This is why the sky gets darker: you're blocking the
light coming from the sky. This is also why you can block reflections:
when skylight is reflected off of water or glass, it keeps its
polarization. The polarizer, if rotated to the right angle, can block
out these reflections.

All this comes with a side effect - after going through the polarizer,
the light is polarized. This means that all the light waves are aligned
the same way, in nice neat rows. This has no effect on the actual image
captrued by film or digital sensors. But it can have an effect on the
TTL metering and autofocus systems in your camera. When the light comes
through your lens, it goes through a beam splitter that sends it in two
different directions: some of it goes to the viewfinder, so that you
can see what you're pointing the camera at, and some of it goes to the
autofocus and metering sensors, so that the camera can figure out what
to do. Some beam splitters don't work well with polarized light: they
may not send enough light over to the sensors (in which case your scene
will end up overexposed, and your autofocus may not work)...or they may
send too much light to the sensors (in which case your scene will be
underexposed).

So, the circular polarizing filter was invented. The quarter-wave plate
"de-polarizes" the light...it scrambles it all up into random
orientations, so that the beam splitter works properly. It's this extra
element that makes circular polarizers cost more.

So...do you need a circular polarizer? Well, I'm no expert on beam
splitters or camera design. It looks like some of them will work fine
with polarized light, others won't. Maybe there are additional factors
that I'm not aware of. It is generally advised that, if you use TTL
metering or autofocus, get a circular polarizer. You could try a linear
polarizer first, and see if it works with your camera, but it's not
always easy to tell if the metering is wrong.

- Darryl
AaronW - 17 Jul 2006 01:14 GMT
> > > Because of the additional film in the circular polarizer, it can
> > > degrade picture, flare, color, etc.
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> "de-polarizes" the light...it scrambles it all up into random
> orientations

It rotates the light a certain angle. Different colors get rotated
different amounts.

You can try this yourself. Stack 2 polarizers together. If the front is
a linear polarizer, when you rotate the rear polarizer so that they are
90 degrees to each other, they block out light, which is to be
expected.

If the front is a circular polarizer, when you rotate the rear
polarizer, light will not be totally blocked out. But each color (a
narrow spectrum) will be filtered out. As you rotate the rear
polarizer, the scene will dramatically change color to warmer and
colder. This effect is caused only by the rear polarizer on the front
circular polarizer, not by the front polarizer on the natural light,
since the front is not rotating. If you rotate the front instead, what
you see will be a combination of the polarizing the natural light and
the interaction of the circular polarizer with the rear polarizer. You
may not be able to tell which effect is caused by which.

If the prism in the viewfinder is partially polarizing, it will behave
the same as the above situation, only to a lesser degree. When you
rotate the circular polarizer and when the effect is not very strong,
you may not be sure whether the color effect you see is caused by the
front polarizer thus will be captured, or whether it is just the
interaction of the circular polarizer and the viewfinder.

If the prism is not polarizing at all, then the front polarizer will
not affect the viewfinder. But it will not affect the exposure meter
either, so you do not need a circular polarizer in the first place.

Only if the prism is partially polarizing the meter, but not polarizing
the viewfinder, then a circular polarizer is all win and no lose. I
don't know if this is possible.

BTW, a circular polarizer will not cure the meter problem in all
situations. It works best if the scene is greyish, a somewhat even mix
of all colors. If the scene is mostly a single color, e.g., green,
since the green lights get rotated a similar angle, it would function
similar to a linear polarizer, that the meter can be off a little bit.
If this situation is acceptable for circular polarizer, then a linear
polarizer will be acceptable, too.

> You could try a linear
> polarizer first, and see if it works with your camera, but it's not
> always easy to tell if the metering is wrong.

The difference is not large that I never have an exposure disaster
caused by linear polarizer. And I never have any AF problem caused by
linear polarizer.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
AaronW - 13 Jul 2006 18:24 GMT
> I also read somewhere that when buying a filter you should try to find
> ones with a thread at both sides so an additional filter can be
> attached on top of it if needed. Sounds useful.

Most have front thread. Some wide angle filters don't, to keep it thin,
to minimize vignetting.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
Arild P. - 16 Jul 2006 02:04 GMT
> > I also read somewhere that when buying a filter you should try to find
> > ones with a thread at both sides so an additional filter can be
> > attached on top of it if needed. Sounds useful.
>
> Most have front thread. Some wide angle filters don't, to keep it thin,
> to minimize vignetting.

The wide angle lens I currently have (I assume my Sigma 17-70mm is
considered having a "wide angle" even though it's a zoom lens) is the
one with the biggest lens diameter (if I buy the Canon 70-300 IS USM),
so for the Sigma I'll probably be buying filters that fit directly on
that lens. Also, the comment in this thread about bigger filters being
more expensive is something to keep in mind.

But if I buy a circular polarizing and a graduated neutral-density
filter with a 72mm diameter (fitting directly on the Sigma 17-70 lens),
will I still have trouble with vignetting?

I'm also considering getting a "UV filter" for both lenses. From what
I've heard the "UV" function is minimal, although they do remove some
of the "haze" from high altitudes such as an aircraft (turning the hazy
blue sky into a clear blue sky?). But the main reason for a filter like
that would be to protect the lens against dirt and damage. I believe a
protective/UV filter like that has threading in the front as well, so
that an additional filter (circular polarizing or neutral ND filters in
my case) can be inserted into that protective filter. Can this cause
vignetting with my Sigma lens set at the widest angle?
AaronW - 17 Jul 2006 01:26 GMT
> > > I also read somewhere that when buying a filter you should try to find
> > > ones with a thread at both sides so an additional filter can be
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The wide angle lens I currently have (I assume my Sigma 17-70mm is
> considered having a "wide angle"

It is equivalent to 27mm, so not ultra wide, as 24, 20, 14, etc.

> I'm also considering getting a "UV filter" for both lenses. From what
> I've heard the "UV" function is minimal, although they do remove some
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> my case) can be inserted into that protective filter. Can this cause
> vignetting with my Sigma lens set at the widest angle?

If it does, you can always remove the UV filter.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
AaronW - 14 Jul 2006 18:14 GMT
> Lastly, my lens is a Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-4.5 which has a 72mm filter-size
> ring. I'm planning to soon get a second lens; a Canon 70-300 f/4-5.6 IS
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> possible size (is that 77mm for Canon/canon-compatible lenses?), and
> buy an adapter ring for both lenses?

Larger filter may be more expensive, so you might not want to spend
extra on something you do not need. If you do not care about the money,
maybe you can spend it on a better smaller filter that you can enjoy
now.

Besides, a larger graduated filter does not work as well on a smaller
lens. The density of the filter changes from top to bottem. The density
close to center is not as strong as the edge. So if only the central
part of the filter is used, (which is already true for full frame lens
on sub frame camera), the effect will be weaker than the filter is
designed to be.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
Arild P. - 17 Jul 2006 17:17 GMT
Several useful comments here!

So in my case, does this sound like a good solution (quality, function
and costwise) for my setup?:

For Sigma 17-70mm f/2-8-4.5 lens (72mm diameter):
- 72mm Hoya Ultra neutral filter
(http://www.hoyafilter.com/products/hoya/gf-03.html)
- 72mm Hoya Super-HMC PL-Cir (circular polarizing) filter
(http://www.hoyafilter.com/products/hoya/gf-04.html)
- 72mm Hoya graduated neutral-density (ND) filter

For Canon 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM lens (58mm diameter):
- 58mm Hoya Ultra neutral filter
(http://www.hoyafilter.com/products/hoya/gf-03.html)
- 58mm-72mm (Hoya?) step-up ring (for use with 72mm polarizing filter)
- 58mm Hoya graduated neutral-density (ND) filter

Unfortunately I haven't quite figured out which of the filters at
Hoya's website (http://www.hoyafilter.com/products/hoya/index.html) are
graduated ND filters.
Is it this one: Half NDx4
(http://www.hoyafilter.com/products/hoya/oef-08.html)?
if the illustration is anything to judge by, it looks like the border
is pretty "hard", while I would assume a "soft border" would more
likely be more versatile for all sorts of situations with high contrast
differences.
I had a look at one of the links given here, going to the "graduated
filter" page, and there are indeed two different kinds; a soft and a
hard transition: http://www.2filter.com/prices/htpackages.html

.... but not Hoya. Does Hoya have soft transition ND filters?
The above site suggests a strength of 0.6 ND which means 2 stops.

As for the UV filters ( ) as previously discussed, I found out that
Hoya has a "neutral" filter, which they claim that "it will not affect
the color balance or performance of your lenses in the slightest", and
since UV is apparently removed from lens-coatings (when I don't use any
filter at all) and filter coatings (when I use a circular-polarizing or
graduated ND filter) I might as well get one of these and probably save
some money.
AaronW - 18 Jul 2006 00:14 GMT
> - 72mm Hoya Super-HMC PL-Cir (circular polarizing) filter
> (http://www.hoyafilter.com/products/hoya/gf-04.html)

B+W's multicoated linear polarizer is priced similar to Hoya's
multicoated circular polarizer. You can also check whether Heliopan
makes one.

> - 58mm-72mm (Hoya?) step-up ring (for use with 72mm polarizing filter)

You can get the cheapest step up ring.

> The above site suggests a strength of 0.6 ND which means 2 stops.

If you can find a good 3-stop, it would be useful.

> As for the UV filters ( ) as previously discussed, I found out that
> Hoya has a "neutral" filter, which they claim that "it will not affect
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> graduated ND filter) I might as well get one of these and probably save
> some money.

Coatings are for minimize reflection, not removing UV.

It seems that SHMC is Hoya's best coating, and it is available on their
UV filters, not neutral filters.

And get one filter for one lens first, to see if you like it, before
buying filters for other lenses.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
Woo U Flung Poh - 18 Jul 2006 00:31 GMT
> And get one filter for one lens first, to see if you like it, before
> buying filters for other lenses.

Hell- I never use filters, if i want to degrade the image I just stick
my hand in front of the lens. Provided your a good enough salesman you
can probably still get a buyer for the image.
 
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