Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / August 2006
Getting better photos -how?
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Arild P. - 28 Jun 2006 12:38 GMT Having spent a few weeks getting used to my new SLR setup (Canon EOS 350D/Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-4.5 DC macro lens) I can't help but wonder why none of my photos turn out like the ones I see in the many galleries online. I spent weeks reading tests, web-discussions etc. before deciding on the Sigma which should supposedly be a very good "allround" lens. So, disappointed, wondering if I had ended up with crappy equipment I specifically searched the web for photos taken with this lens to confirm this.
Much to my surprise I found some fantastic photos taken with the very same lens!! Just look at these:
http://www.pbase.com/alextsung/minter_gardens&page=all http://www.pbase.com/smallufo/20060324 http://www.pbase.com/bpecsek/image/57442669 http://www.pbase.com/nickypenny/image/56996707
As you can see they're (especially the first link with all those flowers) crystal-clear, sharp and very "lively". Exactly the results I'm looking for.
... but here are some of my photos: http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/photos/
(the images haven't been retouched or edited in any way. All I did was resize the JPGs to 25%, then resave them as JPG again with a 100% quality setting).
I perceive my photos as boring, "life-less" snaphots, and nowhere near as razor-sharp as the ones I found taken by others. So what am I doing wrong? I'm really just starting to learn how to use the manual controls of an SLR, but really not getting anywhere.
Randall Ainsworth - 28 Jun 2006 13:32 GMT > confirm this. > I perceive my photos as boring, "life-less" snaphots, and nowhere near > as razor-sharp as the ones I found taken by others. So what am I doing > wrong? > I'm really just starting to learn how to use the manual controls of an > SLR, but really not getting anywhere. As much as I hate Sigma products, I can't really blame them this time. It looks like more a matter of technique...and that takes time.
Arild P. - 28 Jun 2006 13:55 GMT > > confirm this. > > I perceive my photos as boring, "life-less" snaphots, and nowhere near [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > As much as I hate Sigma products, I can't really blame them this time. > It looks like more a matter of technique...and that takes time. Nice to hear that my lense isn't perceived as crap ;-)
Where should I start in order to learn things? I have about a month till I'm going on vacation and would really like to get some good shots to bring home with me. I realize I won't become an expert overnight, but whatever makes me a little better helps.
Is there something obvious I'm doing very wrong in my photos, or is it an overall "newbie" technique which is causing the huge difference between my photos and the ones I've linked?
tomm42 - 28 Jun 2006 14:14 GMT > Nice to hear that my lense isn't perceived as crap ;-) > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > an overall "newbie" technique which is causing the huge difference > between my photos and the ones I've linked? Looking at photos really helps, good photos are a matter of awareness. Lighting, background, camera operation and knowing your post processing programs. Some seemingly natural photos have really taken some extraordinary preparation. I wouldn't hurt to take a basic photobook out of your local library, it might refer to film, but it is all photography.
Good Luck
Tom
Rebecca Ore - 28 Jun 2006 14:35 GMT >> > confirm this. >> > I perceive my photos as boring, "life-less" snaphots, and nowhere near [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > an overall "newbie" technique which is causing the huge difference > between my photos and the ones I've linked? The main thing I see is that you're centering your main subject, which most new photographers do.
http://pics.livejournal.com/mouseworks/pic/0004y2fp/g5 has the subject almost centered. http://pics.livejournal.com/mouseworks/pic/0003cp3p/g5 has a diagonal main subject.
Also, think about backgrounds. The second photograph was taken with flash, so the background is all black. This can be a cliche. This one has an out-of-focus background (105 mm lens), also on the diagonal: http://pics.livejournal.com/mouseworks/pic/0005z57c/g6
Try to think in terms of the dynamics of the shot, background and secondary elements, not just the subject.
For sharpness, try putting the camera on a tripod or use flash.
Kodak's web site has articles on composition. This one is probably the first thing to look at:
http://asp.photo.free.fr/Composition/photoProgramCompClass23.shtml
I was going to try to draw you an ascii diagram of that but I found it Googling on "photography" and "composition."
The verbal "Most of the Time" rules are: (1) Critters and people need to have space to move to in the direction they're looking, (2) Flowers should be a third down and a third over or on the diagonal, (3) Pay attention to the backgrounds, (4) fill flash will let you open the lens more and get a shallower depth of field, (4) More than one diagonal can be confusing.
 Signature Rebecca Ore
Bill K - 28 Jun 2006 17:03 GMT -- Good advice, Rebecca. I used to blame my equipment until I figured out it was me. Duh Bill in Lake Charles
David Dyer-Bennet - 28 Jun 2006 18:39 GMT > Good advice, Rebecca. I used to blame my equipment until I figured out > it was me. Duh Sure is easier to upgrade the equipment, though!
 Signature David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/> RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/> Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
Bill K - 28 Jun 2006 19:40 GMT -- The boy who dies with the most toys wins. I just can't figure out why my wife thinks buying a Hasselblad H2D will not improve my photography. Bill in Lake Charles
Pete D - 28 Jun 2006 23:07 GMT >>> > confirm this. >>> > I perceive my photos as boring, "life-less" snaphots, and nowhere near [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > lens more and get a shallower depth of field, (4) More than one > diagonal can be confusing. And don't be afraid to fill the frame with the subject.
Rebecca Ore - 28 Jun 2006 23:23 GMT > And don't be afraid to fill the frame with the subject. http://pics.livejournal.com/mouseworks/pic/0005rch0/g6
<grin>
 Signature Rebecca Ore
Pete D - 29 Jun 2006 00:55 GMT >> And don't be afraid to fill the frame with the subject. > > http://pics.livejournal.com/mouseworks/pic/0005rch0/g6 > > <grin> I was thinking
http://www.shuttertalk.com/forums/images/upload/yellow-small.jpg
or
http://www.shuttertalk.com/forums/images/upload/flower-2.jpg
Rebecca Ore - 29 Jun 2006 01:09 GMT >>> And don't be afraid to fill the frame with the subject. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.shuttertalk.com/forums/images/upload/flower-2.jpg http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=4589112
 Signature Rebecca Ore
Pete D - 29 Jun 2006 01:31 GMT >>>> And don't be afraid to fill the frame with the subject. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=4589112 Yes.
RW+/- - 29 Jun 2006 04:03 GMT >>> And don't be afraid to fill the frame with the subject. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.shuttertalk.com/forums/images/upload/flower-2.jpg Heh, last one spilled over the frame. ;-P
JPS@no.komm - 29 Jun 2006 23:52 GMT >Heh, last one spilled over the frame. ;-P The petal probably jumped out of the frame just before the shutter was tripped. I hate when that happens. Better that happens, though, than it shows up on the opposite edge of the next frame.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< RW+/- - 30 Jun 2006 02:20 GMT >>Heh, last one spilled over the frame. ;-P > > The petal probably jumped out of the frame just before the shutter was > tripped. I hate when that happens. Better that happens, though, than > it shows up on the opposite edge of the next frame. :)
burnsdavidj@yahoo.com - 28 Jun 2006 14:43 GMT > So, disappointed, wondering if I had ended up with crappy equipment I > specifically searched the web for photos taken with this lens to > confirm this.
> I perceive my photos as boring, "life-less" snaphots, and nowhere near > as razor-sharp as the ones I found taken by others. So what am I doing > wrong? > I'm really just starting to learn how to use the manual controls of an > SLR, but really not getting anywhere. Composition is learned over time, and there is no 'quick fix'. Rule of 3rds is the most basic technique you can learn, but its not the be all/end all.
As for razor-sharp, i found getting a (good) tripod & ballhead made a HUGE difference in the quality of my output. Failing a tripod, get a prime lense with a fast f-stop -- the 50mm 1.8 cheapo canon plastic lense is great value for ~ $100.
I'm don't consider myself very good...competent amateur I guess. But within a year i noticed a big difference using primes and a tripod, vs upgrading my zooms from the year before.
My $0.02.
David Dyer-Bennet - 28 Jun 2006 16:05 GMT > I perceive my photos as boring, "life-less" snaphots, and nowhere near > as razor-sharp as the ones I found taken by others. So what am I doing > wrong? > I'm really just starting to learn how to use the manual controls of an > SLR, but really not getting anywhere. Well, some Photoshop work, like good printing in the darkroom, will make more difference than you might think. And you workflow should include a modest amount of unsharp masking as the last step, which will increase the appearance of sharpness a lot (play around from .3 pixels radius, maybe as much as 200 sharpening, in Photoshop terms).
And after that you'll have to learn more about composition maybe; I don't think your problems are mainly technical.
 Signature David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/> RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/> Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
Arild P. - 28 Jun 2006 16:21 GMT > > I perceive my photos as boring, "life-less" snaphots, and nowhere near > > as razor-sharp as the ones I found taken by others. So what am I doing [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > will increase the appearance of sharpness a lot (play around from .3 > pixels radius, maybe as much as 200 sharpening, in Photoshop terms). I didn't think editing in Photoshop etc. was something that was generally done unless a special effect or manipulation was desired, or the image needed to be resized. So those images have probably been edited, which is the reason they're so sharp and so much better than my photos? If that's the case, maybe I'm not such a bad photographer after all ;-)
I have Photoshop Elements 2.0 which will probably do for basic stuff. I've used it for web graphics, but not much for photo editing.
What do you mean by "good printing in the darkroom"? Are you referring to a function in Photoshop (not elements)?
David Dyer-Bennet - 28 Jun 2006 18:38 GMT > > > I perceive my photos as boring, "life-less" snaphots, and nowhere near > > > as razor-sharp as the ones I found taken by others. So what am I doing [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > so sharp and so much better than my photos? > If that's the case, maybe I'm not such a bad photographer after all ;-) I can't speak for others, but I don't think I've ever posted a photo directly (resized only) out of a digital camera to the web. For snapshots I fairly often *do* post versions that have had only automatic (script) corrections. For photos I think are *good* they get hand-edited; at least a curves adjustment and unsharp masking, and fairly often several layers of curves adjustment with layer masks. It's like dodging and burning in the darkroom, only much easier.
It's also partly a question of the settings in your camera; I have my camera deliver very basic files, I don't try to get sharpening in the camera set right and pick the amount of saturation in the camera and so forth; I'm looking for "digital negatives" that I can make "prints" from in my digital darkroom
> I have Photoshop Elements 2.0 which will probably do for basic stuff. > I've used it for web graphics, but not much for photo editing. > > What do you mean by "good printing in the darkroom"? Are you referring > to a function in Photoshop (not elements)? I'm referring to the difference between a print from your negative at Proex, at a professional lab, and by a master printer. Three hugely different prints, to my eye. (I'm nowhere near a master printer, mind you.) I had this driven home really clearly when my friend Ctein wanted prints from some snapshots of mine; he suggested borrowing the negs and making them himself, which I wouldn't do for just anybody. And I got some prints from them for myself, too. His "quick snapshot print" RA-4 8x10s (he does dye-transfer printing for the ones he sells) from my negatives, that I had Proex 4x6 prints of, were so spectactularly much better it's hard to say. More snap and sparkle, more shadow detail, and of course much better colors. *Everything* was a lot better. And that's fairly quick printing from snapshot negatives. Printing is a major craft (or even art) itself, and getting at least decent at it is one way to improve your results.
These same levels of difference, or nearly, can exist between digital images on your screen, and for the same reasons. So I sometimes talk about "printing" when I don't mean physical prints, to refer to the process of working an image from the camera version into the exhibition version.
I rarely do exotic photoshop stuff -- moving things around, compositing, and such. It's fun, but I'm not super good at it, and mostly don't think my picture would be great if I just moved that hand over a couple of inches ro whatever.
 Signature David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/> RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/> Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
G.T. - 28 Jun 2006 17:24 GMT > Having spent a few weeks getting used to my new SLR setup (Canon EOS > 350D/Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-4.5 DC macro lens) I can't help but wonder why > none of my photos turn out like the ones I see in the many galleries > online. http://ronbigelow.com/articles/articles.htm
Start with the composition articles and move on from there, maybe sharpening next.
Greg
 Signature "All my time I spent in heaven Revelries of dance and wine Waking to the sound of laughter Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons
Frank ess - 28 Jun 2006 20:59 GMT > Having spent a few weeks getting used to my new SLR setup (Canon EOS > 350D/Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-4.5 DC macro lens) I can't help but wonder [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > an > SLR, but really not getting anywhere. My credo is, "Content, content, content". Nothing wrong with your choice of content, wonders-of-nature- and snap-of-neat-stuff-wise.
Nothing wrong with your photos that a little exposure, framing, and "pop" work won't cure; or at least improve.
I see you have received some very on-points advice from a few of the good craftspersons here. My advice is: "Listen, absorb, adapt, shoot". Get the intellectual, factual material, make it a part of your consciousness when you approach a shoot. Make your overtures to the subject, poke at your apprehension of it, then pull away, look at yourself making the photo, adjust if necessary, and do it to it.
I taught my brother to bowl: made him go through all the motions without a ball in his hands, had him rehearse and repeat all my technical advice, imagine himself doing it right the first time, "be the bowling ball". His first ball was a strike, as was the second. He lost concentration on the third, but picked up the spare, and his first game was 191!
The underlying recommendation was: find out what you need to know, learn it well, practice it, and when it comes time to produce, forget all that, let your self do what it knows how to do, and turn it loose. Worked for my brother. I won't go into the "spot bowler" v. "pin bowler" aspects of photography, but there is a lot of capability that is impeded by over-intellctualization of many human pursuits.
Here you will see some quick-and-dirty modifications to a couple of your photos: http://www.fototime.com/inv/527C990F38853F8
A little over the top, here and there, but in about three minutes each, your pictures have been transformed. Not necessarily improved, but different, as a result of quick cropping, curves, and USM application.
It's "always" better to do what you can to make the in-camera result as close to your desired outcome as possible. When not possible, messing with it after capture is "always" made easier by doing it in raw format.
You're going to be proud of your product. And it's really much less costly to get there in digital than in film.
Good luck!
-- Frank ess "In this universe there are things that just don't yield to thinking -plain or fancy-Dude". -J. Spicoli, PolyPartyPerson
BobF@nospam.com - 29 Jun 2006 04:51 GMT >Having spent a few weeks getting used to my new SLR setup (Canon EOS >350D/Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-4.5 DC macro lens) I can't help but wonder why [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >I'm really just starting to learn how to use the manual controls of an >SLR, but really not getting anywhere. Technically, I see that you took some shots with the lens wide open, - bad idea
If you want crisp shots try to stay at f8 or f16 or so...
Lighting is very important here, if you don't have enough light you need a tripod. Don't be afraid to go to iso400 either...
Don't worry about the lens quality - half of my lenses are Sigma, both zooms and primes.
Next - don't forget that most people 'Photoshop' their images... they use the unsharp mask and boost the saturation. Sometimes they even shrink the aspect ratio to make models look skinnier!
Don't forget to check the histogram, it can tell you a few things about what you're doing. Only experience will let you play with these levels, however...
I have certain settings in the camera - I now leave it at 'maximum sharp'. If I need a soft focus shot I'll go in and change it.
Lastly - you need to take pictures of interesting things to get interesting pictures... tops of trees are... well... tops of trees! And blurry cats? hmm
Some of your pics show promise - you need to be more selective in your framing and choice of image.
Don't give up! I've been taking pics since 1959 and every year or so I take a really good one!
David Dyer-Bennet - 29 Jun 2006 07:26 GMT > I perceive my photos as boring, "life-less" snaphots, and nowhere near > as razor-sharp as the ones I found taken by others. So what am I doing > wrong? > I'm really just starting to learn how to use the manual controls of an > SLR, but really not getting anywhere. The discussion stimulated me to put a few very simple examples online. These are a few photos I shot in the back yard earlier tonight, and put up in a photo gallery; but this URL goes to a very simplistic article that shows both the original and edited versions of the photos. This is minimal editing, less than 5 minutes per picture.
I make no claims for the greatness of any of these photos; what I am trying to demonstrate is that even a very small amount of adjustment can make a pretty big difference to how good a photo looks.
"Printing", in the broad sense I use it to include preparing an image for display on scren, has always been the most overlooked step in the photographic process.
Sorry, but the presentation is based on javascript; the photos are shown unedited until you move the mouse over them, and then they switch to the edited version. I'm not normally a big fan of such tricks, but I really do think seeing the photo change before your eyes is the best way to get this point across.
<http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Photography/Articles/simple-printing/>
Perhaps I'll expand the article if people find it helpful; a fuller version would for example describe how I chose the curve points and adjustment amounts (with marks on the image and so forth).
 Signature David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/> RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/> Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
BobF@nospam.com - 30 Jun 2006 01:43 GMT >> I perceive my photos as boring, "life-less" snaphots, and nowhere near >> as razor-sharp as the ones I found taken by others. So what am I doing [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >version would for example describe how I chose the curve points and >adjustment amounts (with marks on the image and so forth). Are you using photoshop? Perhaps an explanation of how to do things would go over well!
I like your site and examples. Would like to know how to do certain things.
For example I wanted to make a wallpaper for another machine, so I took a 3000x2000 picture, sized it by 1/2, and then wanted to crop it to 1280 wide from 1500.( I don't like the re-size distortion you get with non-integer division.)
Couldn't find a way to do this in Elements 2. It wanted millimeters.... stupid program if you ask me - computers use pixels, not mm.
(I can do the operation in Micrografx in 5 seconds.)
David Dyer-Bennet - 30 Jun 2006 02:56 GMT > ><http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Photography/Articles/simple-printing/> > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Are you using photoshop? Perhaps an explanation of how to do things would go > over well! Mostly, yes. The examples in that article were all done in Photoshop (CS; I haven't upgraded to CS2 yet).
> I like your site and examples. Would like to know how to do certain things. > > For example I wanted to make a wallpaper for another machine, so I > took a 3000x2000 picture, sized it by 1/2, and then wanted to crop > it to 1280 wide from 1500.( I don't like the re-size distortion you > get with non-integer division.) With CS, you enter the pixel dimensions you want and it constrains the marquee you drag over the picture to those proportions, then resamples the amount you select to the size you specified.
> Couldn't find a way to do this in Elements 2. It wanted > millimeters.... stupid program if you ask me - computers use pixels, > not mm. I'm afraid I've never seen Elements; I don't know if the interface to the tools it shares with full Photoshop is the same.
> (I can do the operation in Micrografx in 5 seconds.) Also easy in some form in IrfanView and ThumbsPlus viewer.
 Signature David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/> RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/> Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
Peter - 29 Jun 2006 09:40 GMT > Having spent a few weeks getting used to my new SLR setup (Canon EOS > 350D/Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-4.5 DC macro lens) I can't help but wonder why [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Much to my surprise I found some fantastic photos taken with the very > same lens!! Other people have given you some good advice, and IMHO the difference is mostly Photoshop work. Check out this book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0764536958/sr=8-2/qid=1151570179/ref=pd_bbs_2/0 02-2962247-3665628?ie=UTF8
It's amazing what a simple curves adjustment can do in Shop.
Peter
fotonut - 30 Jun 2006 03:24 GMT Looks like on some of the photo's your f-stop was to big try shooting a smaller f-stop like 3.8 or 4.0 this should give you the depth to make you photo jump out at you and use a tri-pod that is always a good thing
>Having spent a few weeks getting used to my new SLR setup (Canon EOS >350D/Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-4.5 DC macro lens) I can't help but wonder why [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >I'm really just starting to learn how to use the manual controls of an >SLR, but really not getting anywhere. Arild P. - 30 Jun 2006 11:11 GMT > Looks like on some of the photo's your f-stop was to big try shooting a > smaller f-stop like 3.8 or 4.0 this should give you the depth to make you > photo jump out at you and use a tri-pod that is always a good thing Now I'm getting confused! Earlier in the thread I was told:
>> Technically, I see that you took some shots with the lens wide open, - bad idea >> If you want crisp shots try to stay at f8 or f16 or so... I experimented a bit with the aperture value yesterday (I assume that "f-stop" and "aperture" is the same thing?) and believe I understand it a bit better now:
- "open" lens aperture = low numbers (e.g. 2.8) Which results in sharpness in the area which has been focused on
- "closed" lens aperture = high number (e.g. 22) which results in everything being sharp (background and foreground).
I've read so much about "bokeh" and the artistic results you get from a blurry background, which is why I've apparently focused (no pun intended) on low aperture numbers, not thinking that it would also make everything which is not in directly focus (but still very close to the focus area) unclear. Playing with higher aperture numbers resulted in MUCH better pictures!!! :-)
But the downside to a high aperture number is that more light is needed, or a higher ISO value.
>From this experience, would the "Av" ("Aperture value" or Aperture priority auto-exposure) mode be the most useful camera mode on my EOS-350D to use for general photography? This mode would let me control how sharp the relationship of foreground/background would be while the camera would take care of lighting (exposure). Have I got it right?
"Tv" ("Time value" or Shutter priority auto-exposure) mode is probably only something I need when shooting in special situations where the automatic exposure doesn't work properly (night-landscape, sunsets etc.) or sporting/action events where I say want to freeze a fast moving subject, or slow down (and thereby make "fuzzy") a flowing stream or waterfall. Correct? But if the camera then automatically sets the aperture, what does it decide on? Does it try to keep the background AND foreground sharp, just the foreground, or something else?
I haven't really understood what the "A-dep" (Automatic depth-of-field auto-exposure) is for. Can someone explain what it does and in which situations I need it?
Yet another question (I have many!): I haven't quite understood what's so good about having 7 focus points. With all 7 points in use, does the camera measure each of them and calculate the focus point as a average distance to the subject? Won't this be the cause of many blurred pictures? Wouldn't it then be better to change this to just use the center focus point? And if the subject isn't in the middle of the picture I'll just focus on it, lock it with the button halfway down, then recompose and shoot?
I believe i'm starting to learn things ;-) This is fun -getting so much better results with a little knowledge and a minor adjustments in settings.
Rebecca Ore - 30 Jun 2006 14:47 GMT > I've read so much about "bokeh" and the artistic results you get from a > blurry background, which is why I've apparently focused (no pun > intended) on low aperture numbers, not thinking that it would also make > everything which is not in directly focus (but still very close to the > focus area) unclear. Playing with higher aperture numbers resulted in > MUCH better pictures!!! :-) A lot of lenses work best (sharpest) at apertures about two or three stops closed from their maximum.
> But the downside to a high aperture number is that more light is > needed, or a higher ISO value. Or a tripod. Or a VR lens.
>>From this experience, would the "Av" ("Aperture value" or Aperture > priority auto-exposure) mode be the most useful camera mode on my > EOS-350D to use for general photography? Yes.
> This mode would let me control how sharp the relationship of > foreground/background would be while the camera would take care of > lighting (exposure). Have I got it right? The camera would take care of the shutter speed. If you can set a minimum shutter speed and bump up the ISO below that. Or use a tripod (bit of a hassle on a vacation, I suspect).
> "Tv" ("Time value" or Shutter priority auto-exposure) mode is probably > only something I need when shooting in special situations where the > automatic exposure doesn't work properly (night-landscape, sunsets > etc.) or sporting/action events where I say want to freeze a fast > moving subject, or slow down (and thereby make "fuzzy") a flowing > stream or waterfall. Correct? Pretty much.
> But if the camera then automatically sets the aperture, what does it > decide on? Does it try to keep the background AND foreground sharp, > just the foreground, or something else? Mu. This is why the prosumer DSLRs have various pre-set modes. Macro will use a higher (more stopped down) f stop and flash if necessary. Sports will use a higher shutter speed.
> I haven't really understood what the "A-dep" (Automatic depth-of-field > auto-exposure) is for. Can someone explain what it does and in which > situations I need it? Not a Canon person, so will leave that one to the people who have one.
> Yet another question (I have many!): > I haven't quite understood what's so good about having 7 focus points. > With all 7 points in use, does the camera measure each of them and > calculate the focus point as a average distance to the subject? Won't > this be the cause of many blurred pictures? See your manual for how this works. You can normally use a setting that allows you to choose your focus point.
> Wouldn't it then be better to change this to just use the center focus > point? And if the subject isn't in the middle of the picture I'll just > focus on it, lock it with the button halfway down, then recompose and > shoot? Or choose an off-center focus point. Here's where spending time with your camera's manual with the camera in front of you might make things clearer.
> I believe i'm starting to learn things ;-) > This is fun -getting so much better results with a little knowledge and > a minor adjustments in settings. <Smiles>
 Signature Rebecca Ore
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 30 Jun 2006 19:53 GMT >> I've read so much about "bokeh" and the artistic results you get from a >> blurry background, which is why I've apparently focused (no pun >> intended) on low aperture numbers, not thinking that it would also make >> everything which is not in directly focus (but still very close to the >> focus area) unclear. Playing with higher aperture numbers resulted in >> MUCH better pictures!!! :-)
> A lot of lenses work best (sharpest) at apertures about two or three > stops closed from their maximum. See if you cannot find your lens(es) at http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/index.html .
Sharpness is important, but sharp images are *not* automatically good. Sometimes a little bit of softness is necessary --- there is even a EF 135 f/2.8 SF (soft focus) lens available from Canon.
>> But the downside to a high aperture number is that more light is >> needed, or a higher ISO value.
> Or a tripod. Or a VR lens. VR (Nikon-speak) == IS (Canon-speak). Helps with camera shake. Can be _very_ valuable in long lenses (tele), but does cost more than the same lens without (if available). Doesn't help with moving subjects. An IS lens instead of a faster lens is a bad idea for sports, for example. (OK, curling or chess are excluded.)
-Wolfgang
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 30 Jun 2006 19:37 GMT >> Looks like on some of the photo's your f-stop was to big try shooting a >> smaller f-stop like 3.8 or 4.0 this should give you the depth to make you >> photo jump out at you and use a tri-pod that is always a good thing
> Now I'm getting confused! > Earlier in the thread I was told:
>>> Technically, I see that you took some shots with the lens wide open, - bad idea >>> If you want crisp shots try to stay at f8 or f16 or so... f/8 may be overdoing things, f/16 almost certainly is. You've got a digital camera. Use it. Try it out.
> I experimented a bit with the aperture value yesterday (I assume that > "f-stop" and "aperture" is the same thing?) and believe I understand it > a bit better now:
> - "open" lens aperture = low numbers (e.g. 2.8) Yep: the number is the 'size of the hole' (if it were at the front element of the lens) in relation to the optical length of the lens (often called f, "focal length"). Thus f/2.8 is a much larger hole in 200mm than in 50mm, but both let through the _same amount_ of light[1], and thus they are a very useful number to the photographer.
> Which results in sharpness in the area which has been focused on low depth of sharpness, often used e.g. for portraits
> - "closed" lens aperture = high number (e.g. 22) > which results in everything being sharp (background and foreground). high depth of sharpness, often used e.g. for landscapes
Though beware: if you close a lens so much, you are gonna run into diffraction. Nothing you can do, it's a law of nature.
Basically, one important must for 'sharp' is that the tiny circles each point in the scene makes (see wikipedia:"circle of confusion" and other sites), is so small on the final product (monitor, paper, dia projection, 10x15m poster on a house) that you cannot see the circles as circles, but as points. Obviously, that also depends on how far you are from the product: you'd probably be a couple meters away from the poster, but only a couple centimeters from a 4"x6" photograph on paper.
Closing the lens down a bit (it depends on the lens!) reduces some lens errors and makes the circles smaller. Closing down further makes circles smaller that are further in front or behind the point you focussed on (because they were HUGE => unsharp, out of focus), but will _increase_ the circle size for those things well _in_ focus. The light wave is being bend at the corners of the aperture, and the smaller the hole ...
For DSLR crop cameras most quality lenses seem happiest stepped down a bit and around f/4-f/8, with diffraction effects starting to degrade the lens slightly at f/8. (Some lenses are better at f/8 than f/5.6 or even at f/11 than f/8, though, stopping down giving you more than diffraction is taking away --- but that usually are the lower quality ones, or those who are wide open at f/5.6). I'd probably not close the lens down more than f/8 or f/11 on a DSLR crop camera unless I really need the depth of field.
> But the downside to a high aperture number is that more light is > needed, or a higher ISO value. Or flash, or longer exposure times. That's what monopods and tripods are made for, in more extreme cases. (I cannot handhold even a wide angle lens for 60 seconds, for example. Yes, it was dark.)
>From this experience, would the "Av" ("Aperture value" or Aperture > priority auto-exposure) mode be the most useful camera mode on my > EOS-350D to use for general photography? The most useful is probably P, but if you need/want to restrict how the camera acts, Av or Tv or M is available. If you need to restrict time (sports, flying birds or you _want_ long exposures for blurring), Tv. If you need to handle depth of field or manual flash, Av. If you have time for shifting or if default values are OK, P. If you need 100% control or are shooting flash-only, M. If you hand the camera to someone else and cannot trust even P, the green square.
If you want a hint of how much depth of field you need, the A-DEP or DEP setting can help (read the manual).
> This mode would let me control how sharp the relationship of > foreground/background would be while the camera would take care of > lighting (exposure). Have I got it right? Yes. mostly, unless you add flash. Flash on EOS ... must be learned. http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/
> "Tv" ("Time value" or Shutter priority auto-exposure) mode is probably > only something I need when shooting in special situations where the > automatic exposure doesn't work properly (night-landscape, sunsets > etc.) Nope. You can use exposure compensation in P, Tv and Av, or switch to M.
> But if the camera then automatically sets the aperture, what does it > decide on? Does it try to keep the background AND foreground sharp, > just the foreground, or something else? Simple: it sets aperture so that it matches the time you _force_ the camera to use, so that the exposure (to the best of the camera's knowledge) is correct. The camera does _not_ care about foreground and background, NOR does the camera change the ISO setting (execpt between 100 and 400 on "the green square" setting only).
> I haven't really understood what the "A-dep" (Automatic depth-of-field > auto-exposure) is for. Can someone explain what it does and in which > situations I need it? It is a variant of Av, but the aperture is set (if possible) that all objects accepted by the autofocus points (red flash) are in focus.
> Yet another question (I have many!): > I haven't quite understood what's so good about having 7 focus points. If you only have a center focus point, you have to focus&recompose --- unless you want the object to be in the center, _usually_ a recipe for boring pictures. Depending on what you do, this can move the plane of focus so much that your object of desire is out of focus again.
So if you can focus using another focus point, you need to recompose less ... and it also can have a meaning for evaluative metering and certainly has one for flash photograpy.
> With all 7 points in use, does the camera measure each of them and > calculate the focus point as a average distance to the subject? Won't > this be the cause of many blurred pictures? It chooses the closest focus point. You can restrict the camera to any single focus point, too. (And you can de-couple AF from the main trigger button, IIRC, see the custom features.)
-Wolfgang
[1] modulo things like transmission (i.e. how much light the lens _itself_ absorbs in all that glass and so on). Of practically no interest to photographers and even less to photographers measuring TTL (Through The Lens), but apparently very important to film makers. Don't worry about it.
Arild P. - 02 Jul 2006 23:34 GMT > > - "closed" lens aperture = high number (e.g. 22) > > which results in everything being sharp (background and foreground). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Though beware: if you close a lens so much, you are gonna run > into diffraction. Nothing you can do, it's a law of nature. I'm getting confused again. Lot's of new things to keep in mind when handling a camera apparently. I looked up diffraction, and find out it's some kind of distortion. I don't know the details, but I don't want crappy photos if I can avoid it, so does this mean that I *shouldn't* have my lens/camera set to its outer limits? In other words, if I'm adjusting the aperture value prior to taking a picture and it goes to 22, I should pick say 20, 18, 17 or something instead, and adjust the shutter speed accordingly?
Also, having played around with shutter/aperture settings I see that I can make the light-meter in the camera stay in the middle with lots of different combinations. For example, in the "M" (manual) mode I can have f/3.5 with 250, or f/9 with 40 or even f/25 with 6. The meter readings are all the same with such different combinations, so what should I go for?
what I really want to know is if there are some definitive "rules" in photography that I should always keep in the back of my mind. I understand the light metering (though things get a little confusing in situations when you can't trust the light meter), but I'm sure there are others as well.
> For DSLR crop cameras most quality lenses seem happiest stepped > down a bit and around f/4-f/8, with diffraction effects starting to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'd probably not close the lens down more than f/8 or f/11 on a > DSLR crop camera unless I really need the depth of field. I've currently got one lens; the Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8-4.5 (http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/sigma_1770_2845/index.htm), but will probably also get a Canon 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 IS USM soon. Is the general rule that I should never use a higher value than f/11? The Sigma 17-70 is a "digital" lens, while the 70-300 is a normal 35mm lens as far as I can remember in case this makes any difference.
When you say "stopping down", are you simply talking about using a higher "f" number? And if so, is "stopping down" increasing the "f" number one "step" higher, such as from 2.8 to 3.5?
Phew! I'm pretty confused about this stuff. The books explain the relationship between aperture and shutter speed, but they don't say which numbers you should use, or within which range you should stick. For example, if I want to take a picture of a person -a portrait, I would most likely want to blur the background, so I assume I'd go as low as possible (e.g. f/2.8) and adjust the shutter speed accordingly, to level the light-meter. But perhaps such a low f number would just keep the person's nose in focus while the rest of his face would be out of focus, so I might need to use f/4 instead. What's the rule for this?
And if I want to take a photo of the same person, but this time keep the background in focus as well as him, I would assume that the highest possible f-number would be the way to go (e.g. f/25) and adjust the shutter speed accordingly to level the meter. I'd choose the highest possible number to make sure everything in the photo would be just as sharp.
But you're saying that this is incorrect?
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 03 Jul 2006 10:16 GMT >> > - "closed" lens aperture = high number (e.g. 22) >> > which results in everything being sharp (background and foreground).
>> high depth of sharpness, often used e.g. for landscapes
>> Though beware: if you close a lens so much, you are gonna run >> into diffraction. Nothing you can do, it's a law of nature.
> I'm getting confused again. Lot's of new things to keep in mind when > handling a camera apparently. Not really. Only if you insist on good results.
> I looked up diffraction, and find out it's some kind of distortion. It's not a distortion. It's affecting sharpness, though.
> I > don't know the details, but I don't want crappy photos if I can avoid > it, so does this mean that I *shouldn't* have my lens/camera set to its > outer limits? Unless there is an overriding need, you should not set your lens to fully closed, nor to wide open, nor your ISO to the highest values (the lowest ones are the best here).
You might want a fully closed lens if you _need_ extreme depth of field. You often want a wide-open lens if you e.g. shoot portraits with minimal depth of field, or when it's rather dark.
> In other words, if I'm adjusting the aperture value prior to taking a > picture and it goes to 22, I should pick say 20, 18, 17 or something > instead, and adjust the shutter speed accordingly? There's not _that_ much difference between 22 and 19 ...
> For example, in the "M" (manual) mode I can have f/3.5 with 250, or f/9 > with 40 or even f/25 with 6. The meter readings are all the same with > such different combinations, so what should I go for? Depends on what you want. Flowing water should be nearly frozen at 1/250s, lively at 1/30s and quite foamy/misty at 1/6 (and you'd probably need a tripod). Athletes may show a bit of movement at 1/250s, at 1/30 you'll get serious movement blur from running people and at 1/6s is probably all a blur --- which can be interesting, or not, depending on your wants.
f/3.5 will be sharp only in a small area, f/8 should give you the highest resolution, f/22 might be necessary for having both close and far objects be fairly sharp.
> what I really want to know is if there are some definitive "rules" in > photography that I should always keep in the back of my mind. There aren't. There are only guidelines. (One well-known is the "rule of the third".). http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/2006/06/great-photographers-on-interne t.html is what happens when people judge by guidelines only.
You may want to use the hood, both for protection and for keeping out stray light if possible (stray light reduces contrast).
>> For DSLR crop cameras most quality lenses seem happiest stepped >> down a bit and around f/4-f/8, with diffraction effects starting to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> I'd probably not close the lens down more than f/8 or f/11 on a >> DSLR crop camera unless I really need the depth of field.
> I've currently got one lens; the Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8-4.5 > (http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/sigma_1770_2845/index.htm), > but will probably also get a Canon 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 IS USM soon. Is > the general rule that I should never use a higher value than f/11? There are no general rules.
In this case: You'll have some barrel distortion at 17mm, but there are programs to correct that (at a slight loss of resolution).
> The Sigma 17-70 is a "digital" lens, while the 70-300 is a normal 35mm > lens as far as I can remember in case this makes any difference. Vignetting wide open and resolution at the very borders may be worse in digital lenses. Stopping down helps usually.
> When you say "stopping down", are you simply talking about using a > higher "f" number? Exactly.
> And if so, is "stopping down" increasing the "f" > number one "step" higher, such as from 2.8 to 3.5? One step would be from 2.8 to 4. The steps are 1 1.4 2 2.8 4 5.6 8 11 16 22 32 ... Each steps up _halves_ the amount of light passing.
> Phew! I'm pretty confused about this stuff. You do pretty well.
> The books explain the relationship between aperture and shutter speed, > but they don't say which numbers you should use, or within which range [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > keep the person's nose in focus while the rest of his face would be out > of focus, so I might need to use f/4 instead. What's the rule for this? The "rule" is: try to keep the eyes, or at least the leading eye, in focus. Do not focus on the nose. f/4 may not be a problem (depth of field is much shallower for tele settings than for wide angle, it depends how 'loud' your background is and how far away it is), try it.
You also want to think about light. A small peak light in the eye is often nice ('sparkling' eyes), a highlight on the hair, light from a large area coming from the side, not from above (people look terrible at high noon, shadows under their eyes and so on, try the mornings or afternoons outside), not having the other side in the darkness (unless that's what you want), a light from behind can give a sort of halo effect, you may want not to have sweat gleaming on the brow (then again, you may want to), powder can make the skin look better, even outside a flash unit may improve the image by lighting up deep shadows, do _not_ be very close (i.e. fill the frame at 17mm), it gives strange proportions (but then, do it on purpose a few times) ...
Try one or two items, see what they do, keep or discard them, and go on trying the next.
> And if I want to take a photo of the same person, but this time keep > the background in focus as well as him, I would assume that the highest > possible f-number would be the way to go (e.g. f/25) and adjust the > shutter speed accordingly to level the meter. I'd choose the highest > possible number to make sure everything in the photo would be just as > sharp. If you want to keep the background, it is mostly a question of "how far is the background, how far is the person, am I using tele or wide angle". Focus on the person, note the point on the distance scale of your lens, focus on the background, againg note the point, manually set the focus in the middle between these points and consult your depth-of-field table to determine the necessary aperture.
Alternatively, the A-DEP setting may help.
f/25 is usually too much. But try it and see if you like the sharpness you get.
-Wolfgang
JPS@no.komm - 03 Jul 2006 21:58 GMT >Unless there is an overriding need, you should not set your lens >to fully closed, nor to wide open, nor your ISO to the highest >values (the lowest ones are the best here). Only if you are getting a full exposure with the desired f-stop and shutter speed. Forcing low ISOs where they don't belong causes more noise than high ISOs do.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Wolfgang Weisselberg - 06 Jul 2006 23:13 GMT >>Unless there is an overriding need, you should not set your lens >>to fully closed, nor to wide open, nor your ISO to the highest >>values (the lowest ones are the best here).
> Only if you are getting a full exposure with the desired f-stop and > shutter speed. _Not_ getting that counts at overriding need.
I was rather thinking of "Shooting a static object from a tripod in full daylight ... let's use ISO 1600 or 3200".
-Wolfgang
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 03 Jul 2006 19:27 GMT > Yep: the number is the 'size of the hole' (if it were at the > front element of the lens) in relation to the optical length of > the lens (often called f, "focal length"). > Thus f/2.8 is a much larger hole in 200mm than in 50mm, but both > let through the _same amount_ of light[1], and thus they are a > very useful number to the photographer. This is not correct. The larger the aperture, the more light the lens collects. See: The f/ratio Myth and Digital Cameras http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/f-ratio_myth
A 200 mm f/2.8 lens collects 16 times more light than a 50mm lens. But the 200 mm lens magnifies the image in the focal plane more so that the light (number of photons) is the same per unit area, thus giving the same exposure time for the two lenses for a typical scene. If you were imaging point sources, like stars, the 200 mm lens would record fainter stars in the same exposure time (16 times fainter) as the 50mm lens.
For the Original Poster:
Photography is a lesson in compromises. Lenses are a built with many compromises. These include corrections due to aberrations, total field of view, largest lens opening (aperture or f/stop, also called f/ratio), all driven by cost. The f/ratio is the lens diameter divided by focal length.
Most aberrations (e.g. spherical, coma, chromatic) decrease with smaller apertures. Some aberrations may not decrease with smaller apertures, like astigmatism. Other issues, like field curvature (you want the focal plane to be flat, not curved), do not change with aperture. One fundamental limit is diffraction, which increases with decreasing aperture. So image sharpness produced by a lens is a trade between minimizing the aberrations that decrease with smaller apertures with increasing diffraction as aperture size gets smaller. Many photographic lenses reach that optimum in the f/8 to f/11 range.
Then sharpness can be affected by focus. Different distances in the real scene come to a focus at different distances from the lens. Decreasing aperture brings more depth into focus but only to a degree, as diffraction increases, thus reducing sharpness. Your settings become a compromise.
In general, slightly out-of-focus parts of an image are distracting to the eye, and may even "hurt" the eye (e.g. some people get watery eyes looking at a blurry image). So there are generally two strategies in photography (with the caveat that all guidelines can be broken):
1) Everything sharp, from near foreground to the most distant background. Example: http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.large_format/web/c072099_L4_01a2-60 0b.html In such an image, if portions of the image were slightly out of focus, the "wow" factor would be lost and people's eyes start to water at the blur. Everything sharp is balanced by lens aperture, exposure time, and enlargement factor. (The above example is with large format film and was shot at f/64, but gives results similar to f/16 on 35mm).
2) The subject is in focus, but the background is very out of focus. This is generally done a lot with wildlife images, such as this one: http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/web/great.blue.herons.the.kiss .JZ3F8149.f-700.html The key in such photos is to have the subjects eyes be the main focal point. This requires the widest apertures, but how wide depends on how far back the background is. The above image was at f/5.6 but the background are trees several times further away than the birds.
In using a camera, I recommend only two modes: aperture priority and manual. That way you control everything. Aperture controls sharpness, and that is a key to the technical aspect of photography. If you want fast shutter speed, open the aperture to its maximum. If that is not fast enough, then increase the ISO value. Camera meters are only an estimate. You need to learn to examine the image data (e.g. view the image and look at the histogram), and adjust exposure to compensate for the meter when it does not do the best job (e.g. a small white bird in the scene may be overexposed). Then use the exposure compensation dials on the camera to adjust to get a better exposure, or change to manual mode.
Once you've learned the technical aspects, you are then open to learning the creative aspects of photography, which if you are like most of us, will take the rest of our lives ;-). I'm still learning.
Roger Photos, other digital info at: http://www.clarkvision.com
G.T. - 03 Jul 2006 23:25 GMT >> Yep: the number is the 'size of the hole' (if it were at the >> front element of the lens) in relation to the optical length of [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > fainter stars in the same exposure time (16 times fainter) > as the 50mm lens. Thanks, Roger, especially for mentioning the point sources.
Greg
 Signature "All my time I spent in heaven Revelries of dance and wine Waking to the sound of laughter Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons
Arild P. - 06 Jul 2006 23:15 GMT > 1) Everything sharp, from near foreground to the most > distant background. Example: > http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.large_format/web/c072099_L4_01a2-60 0b.html Wow! That's an awesome picture!! How do you get such vivid colors? My photos mostly seem very dull in comparison, no matter what I do.
(The above example is with large format film and was shot
> at f/64, but gives results similar to f/16 on 35mm). I understand that a higher f-number should be chosen, but how do you know if you should use f/16 as opposed to say f/12 or f/22?
> 2) The subject is in focus, but the background is very out of focus. > This is generally done a lot with wildlife images, such as > this one: > http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/web/great.blue.herons.the.kiss .JZ3F8149.f-700.html Again, a fantastic, almost unreal picture! Has it been manipulated in Photoshop, or did you shoot it that way? The feathers of the leftmost bird has this amazing texture. It doesn't look like a regular photo. Is it all because of the lighting (sunset) or have you used a special technique?
> The key in such photos is to have the subjects eyes be the main > focal point. This requires the widest apertures, but how wide > depends on how far back the background is. The above image was > at f/5.6 but the background are trees several times further away than > the birds. Does it make a big difference if I'm close to the subject (not with birds, but with say, flowers) and us f/5.6 as opposed to a distance away with a powerful zoom lens (I'm considering getting a Canon 70-300 IS USM) zoomed close to the subject with f/5.6 as well?
Focusing on the birds' eyes must be tricky if you weren't really close and they stood pretty still so you could focus.
> In using a camera, I recommend only two modes: aperture priority > and manual. That way you control everything. Aperture controls sharpness, > and that is a key to the technical aspect of photography. > If you want fast shutter speed, open the aperture to its maximum. > If that is not fast enough, then increase the ISO value. I've spent a few days playing around with the manual controls, trying to get to know them. I now think I understand the basics of aperture vs. shutter speed, and how aperture affects sharpness in a picture, and I know which controls on my camera to use in order to change both of these, following the meter, or deliberately deviating from it. What I don't understand is how to determine what I should set my camera to when I can't rely on the meter. I also don't quite get the metering and focusing modes.
I'm glad you mention only two modes that are necessary to learn, because then I can concentrate on them. Manual control takes time. Especially if I've taken a picture of a sunset, and the next day there's bright sunlight etc. and I have to adjust shutter/aperture to very different values. It takes time to rotate the dial from say f/4.5 to f/22, or 0.5 seconds to 1/125 second, so what do you do if a bird comes along that you have to shoot right away? Change the mode selector to one of the auto modes (or "P" mode, which I believe is actually the same thing as "fully auto" or "green" mode except you can deviate from it if you want?
> Camera meters are only an estimate. You need to learn to examine > the image data (e.g. view the image and look at the histogram), and > adjust exposure to compensate for the meter when it does not do > the best job (e.g. a small white bird in the scene may be > overexposed). Then use the exposure compensation dials on > the camera to adjust to get a better exposure, or change to manual mode. This is the tricky part which I don't understand. I've uploaded some examples. First, here's a sunset which is more or less correctly exposed as far as I know (1/1000s, f/7.1): http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/exposure/IMG_1407.jpg But if I want to see more of the building (i.e. not just as a silhouette) and shoot with 1/250 f/7.1: http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/exposure/IMG_1408.jpg the sky becomes overexposed.
Here's another example of a sunset (1/1000s, f/6.3): http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/exposure/IMG_1393.jpg I can barely see any of the buildings, even though in reality there was quite a lot of light, sufficient to see them. And now with the camera set to 1/500s, f/6.3 the sky is over-exposed, but I can see more of the buildings: http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/exposure/IMG_1392.jpg
A third example is a tunnel which I've shot from the outside. Here the sky and the entrance looks properly exposed while the tunnel itself is very dark: http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/exposure/IMG_1457.jpg (1/500s, f/5.6) But if I change it to 1/15s, f/5.6 the tunnel is visible, but the sky and everything else is over-exposed: http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/exposure/IMG_1456.jpg
What I want to know is if there's a way I can get a proper expose for the dark and light sections at the same time, or is this physically impossible?
Moving on to contrasts, such as a black/white cat which I find hard to shoot (to all the animal lovers out there; not literally ;-) I believe this is one of those situations I shouldn't rely on the meter as you talk about, but how? Here are a couple of photos of that cat, and in addition, to make it even trickier I have the same problem as with my abovementioned photos: the cat is inside, and the sky is bright outside the window, so the background is over-exposed: http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/exposure/IMG_1194.jpg (1/50s, f/7.1) http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/exposure/IMG_1195.jpg (1/50s, f/7.1)
> Once you've learned the technical aspects, you are then open to learning > the creative aspects of photography, which if you are like most of us, > will take the rest of our lives ;-). I'm still learning. Yeah, it's pretty tricky. I often find myself pretty clueless. For example, I'm at a holiday destination and have a great time, so I want to capture the moment, but I really don't know what I should take a picture of, so I end taking a "snapshot" of everything all at once. An overview of the place in other words. But I do believe I've become a little better now than since I first got my EOS-350D about a month ago and started asking questions here. At least many of my photos are more in focus now, even though I'm still struggling to figure out which f-value to use, so many photos are still unsharp in different places, but hey, I'm taking all the advice I can, practicing with my camera and open for any advice on the subject. Here are some shots I've taken recently which I'm reasonably happy with:
http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/img_impr/
what do you think? What's good and what can I improve on?
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 08 Jul 2006 06:07 GMT >>1) Everything sharp, from near foreground to the most >>distant background. Example: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > How do you get such vivid colors? My photos mostly seem very dull in > comparison, no matter what I do. Thanks. It was done on Fujichrome Velvia film which is pretty high contrast. The scan of the film was pretty straight, with no manipulation, except I darkened the clouds some. This is a very green part of Colorado (similar to the greens in Ireland).
> (The above example is with large format film and was shot >>at f/64, but gives results similar to f/16 on 35mm). > > I understand that a higher f-number should be chosen, but how do you > know if you should use f/16 as opposed to say f/12 or f/22? It really comes from experience. Your camera may have a depth of field mode where you focus on close and far parts of the scene and then the camera sets the best focus and f/stop.
>>2) The subject is in focus, but the background is very out of focus. >>This is generally done a lot with wildlife images, such as [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Is it all because of the lighting (sunset) or have you used a special > technique? It's the light. In real estate, it's location, location, location. In photography, its the lighting, lighting, lighting. The same pose from the same location done at noon would be an awful picture. If I moved a few feet to the right, the background was bright blue sky, and if I moved to the left, the bush covered the birds. Only that one spot at that one time worked. I actually got many photos of this kiss (it was a long one), and the light peaked with the above image. A few seconds before and the light was harsher, and a few seconds later and the light faded.
>>The key in such photos is to have the subjects eyes be the main >>focal point. This requires the widest apertures, but how wide [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > away with a powerful zoom lens (I'm considering getting a Canon 70-300 > IS USM) zoomed close to the subject with f/5.6 as well? Macro of flowers has different requirements than wildlife. Basically what is in focus in a macro shot is dependent on magnification. I'm not an expert in macro (so people, please feel free to correct me here), but if you filled the frame with a 100mm or a 300mm, say at 1:1 magnification (that means life size on the sensor), the depth of field would be the same at a given f/stop. The shorter lens has greater depth of field but you would need to be 3 times closer, so you don't actually gain.
> Focusing on the birds' eyes must be tricky if you weren't really close > and they stood pretty still so you could focus. It is a skill you learn, especially for action.
>>In using a camera, I recommend only two modes: aperture priority >>and manual. That way you control everything. Aperture controls sharpness, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > believe is actually the same thing as "fully auto" or "green" mode > except you can deviate from it if you want? I generally use Av (aperture priority). I switch to manual mode after I've determined the lighting and want to hold exposure constant. For example, a meter on a white bird, set the exposure and as the bird flies between blue sky, a tree in full sun, or a shadow in the background, the exposure on the bird is constant so manual can work best.
>>Camera meters are only an estimate. You need to learn to examine >>the image data (e.g. view the image and look at the histogram), and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/exposure/IMG_1408.jpg > the sky becomes overexposed. Good example. I assume you looked at the image on your camera and determined you needed to change the exposure to get the image you desired. I probably would have done a third exposure at a shorter exposure time to see what the colors were closer to the sun.
> Here's another example of a sunset (1/1000s, f/6.3): > http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/exposure/IMG_1393.jpg [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > but I can see more of the buildings: > http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/exposure/IMG_1392.jpg Sunsets are very difficult if you want to show the dark parts in the scene too. The dynamic range is huge. You can use a photo editor to select the dark parts and brighten them. Photoshop CS has a shadow tool that will brighten shadows. You can also buy a split neutral density filter to darken the sky without darkening the lower part of the image when you take the picture.
> A third example is a tunnel which I've shot from the outside. Here the > sky and the entrance looks properly exposed while the tunnel itself is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the dark and light sections at the same time, or is this physically > impossible? Again, this is a difficult photo situation. Again, try the above digital tools. Another thing you can do is merge the two different exposures if you have Photoshop into what is called a high dynamic range image. Photoshop will automatically merge the two images scaling them according to the exposure information.
This is advanced stuff. While learning, I'd suggest simpler stuff.
> Moving on to contrasts, such as a black/white cat which I find hard to > shoot (to all the animal lovers out there; not literally ;-) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/exposure/IMG_1194.jpg (1/50s, f/7.1) > http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/exposure/IMG_1195.jpg (1/50s, f/7.1) The bright background confuses the meter. Try to not have a bright background. A general guide is to have the subject brighter than the background as the eye is drawn to the brightest parts of the image. (Rules and guides: you can break them for artistic tastes.)
>>Once you've learned the technical aspects, you are then open to learning >>the creative aspects of photography, which if you are like most of us, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/img_impr/ > what do you think? What's good and what can I improve on? I would ask myself, for each photo, what is the focal point (not technical focus, but subject). For example: http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/img_impr/IMG_1437.jpg If you moved to the right, the background would have been shadow, so the subject in focus would be brighter than the background. I would crop the vertical thing at the right edge so it was gone. Then perhaps a vertical rather than a horizontal format.
Most of the shots would be better with a little cropping to take out distracting elements and to not have the main subject centered. Try doing that in the viewfinder when you take the picture. Buy some books on photo composition, looking at books in a bookstore and choose a photographer whose style you like. Good luck. It is not something that most people learn overnight, but it is fun doing it (at least I think it is).
Roger Photo galleries: http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries
Arild P. - 08 Jul 2006 12:23 GMT >>http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/web/great.blue.herons.the.kiss .JZ3F8149.f-700.html > > > > Again, a fantastic, almost unreal picture! > > Has it been manipulated in Photoshop, or did you shoot it that way?
> It's the light. In real estate, it's location, location, > location. In photography, its the lighting, lighting, lighting. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > A few seconds before and the light was harsher, and a few seconds > later and the light faded. "Kiss"? Very interesting information! So the more you take photos the more you "see" and "know" what time is right to get a good shot? I seem to get the feeling that photography (or rather *creative* photography) is based a lot on intuition once you master the actual technical aspects (knowing how to operate the camera settings etc.).
> >>The key in such photos is to have the subjects eyes be the main > >>focal point. This requires the widest apertures, but how wide > >>depends on how far back the background is. The above image was > >>at f/5.6 but the background are trees several times further away than > >>the birds. I've noticed that I've gotten a lot of unsharp results. Unsharp in the sense that a section of the flower is in focus, but a the edge of a petal might be unfocused. I'm using a 17-70mm lens. Are things very different if you have, say a 200mm lens and zoom in on a subject from a distance? I guess that's what I meant when I asked about using the same aperture from a distance or up close.
> I generally use Av (aperture priority). I switch to manual > mode after I've determined the lighting and want to hold exposure > constant. For example, a meter on a white bird, set the exposure > and as the bird flies between blue sky, a tree in full sun, or > a shadow in the background, the exposure on the bird is constant > so manual can work best. But this assumes more consistent lighting across everything you want to shoot, doesn't it? If there are big contrasts you can't do that without risking over/under-exposure, can you?
There's one situation where I've seen the above apply to me. I've been interested in taking panorama shots, and have read that you really need to find an average shutter value across all the shots, so that's what I did, using a tripod and taking many shots next to another with the same lighting/aperture. It turned out great!
> > This is the tricky part which I don't understand. > > I've uploaded some examples. First, here's a sunset which is more or [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > camera and determined you needed to change the exposure to > get the image you desired. I played around with many different settings that evening and looked at the results in the LCD display right away so I could learn something. I learnt that the meter interpreted the light wrongly, so I would have to adjust the exposure a little to the "-" (left) side. In other words, less time to make it darker.
> I probably would have done a third > exposure at a shorter exposure time to see what the colors > were closer to the sun. You mean take another shot even darker?
> Sunsets are very difficult if you want to show the dark > parts in the scene too. The dynamic range is huge. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > darkening the lower part of the image when you take > the picture. Yeah, a filter like that might come in handy. A polarizing filter is also something that I definitely need to get (I've used that in the past and gotten great results). Lots of stuff to buy....
> > A third example is a tunnel which I've shot from the outside. Here the > > sky and the entrance looks properly exposed while the tunnel itself is [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > merge the two different exposures if you have Photoshop > into what is called a high dynamic range image. You mean take two shots at the exact same location (using a tripod), but with different shutter settings, then use Photoshop to put the different shots as layers on top of each other, mixing the best parts of each shot together? Wouldn't that be extremely difficult? I mean, even the slightest movement of the camera on the tripod would make the alignment of the shots imperfect and end up with an unsharp result.
> Photoshop will automatically merge the two images > scaling them according to the exposure information. You mean there's an automatic function that even adjusts the minor alignment problems? I use Photoshop elements 2.0 which I don't think has anything that advanced.
> This is advanced stuff. While learning, I'd suggest simpler > stuff. I agree. I also see that there's no end to being creative within this hobby :-)
> > Moving on to contrasts, such as a black/white cat which I find hard to > > shoot (to all the animal lovers out there; not literally ;-) > > I believe this is one of those situations I shouldn't rely on the meter > > as you talk about, but how?
> The bright background confuses the meter. Try to not > have a bright background. A general guide is to have the > subject brighter than the background as the eye is drawn > to the brightest parts of the image. (Rules and guides: > you can break them for artistic tastes.) Having gotten a darker background, should I lock the light meter at the brightest (white) part of the cat? It's easier to correct an image which is slightly under-exposed than over-exposed as far as I remember.
> > Here are some shots I've taken recently which I'm reasonably happy > > with: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > at the right edge so it was gone. Then perhaps a vertical > rather than a horizontal format. Good point! I have to start thinking creatively from the start then. So when I find something I want to shoot I'll ask myself what I want to convey to the viewer. I've gotten hold of the "Understandig exposure" book at the local library. I can't remember who recommended it to me here, or in some other forum, but this is *THE* book I should have bought to begin with and not wasted my money on other "digital photography" type books that explain everything from memory cards to cleaning and so on. Apart from the additional user-manual replacement (the Magic lantern series) for my EOS-350D (as the user-manual is pretty lousy), "Understanding exposure" might really be the only book I need on photography to learn the basics! After having started to read the book and asking related questions here I believe I've learnt quite a lot of the basic stuff. So to anyone else starting out I would definitely recommend this book!
> Most of the shots would be better with a little cropping to > take out distracting elements and to not have the main > subject centered. Good point!
> Try doing that in the viewfinder when > you take the picture. Buy some books on photo composition, > looking at books in a bookstore and choose a photographer > whose style you like. Good luck. It is not something > that most people learn overnight, but it is fun > doing it (at least I think it is). It sure is. I can honestly say that I'm hooked! In one month I've taken over 1100 shots! It's fun learning as you go along and seeing that your results get better and you're indeed getting closer to those "I wish I had a camera and lens that could take pictures like that" type of shots :-)
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 08 Jul 2006 15:53 GMT > Very interesting information! So the more you take photos the more you > "see" and "know" what time is right to get a good shot? Hopefully.
> I seem to get the feeling that photography (or rather *creative* > photography) is based a lot on intuition once you master the actual > technical aspects (knowing how to operate the camera settings etc.). Yes.
>>>>The key in such photos is to have the subjects eyes be the main >>>>focal point. This requires the widest apertures, but how wide [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I guess that's what I meant when I asked about using the same aperture > from a distance or up close. Again, closeups are more difficult. Perhaps someone with experience can give a more comprehensive answer than me.
>>I generally use Av (aperture priority). I switch to manual >>mode after I've determined the lighting and want to hold exposure [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > shoot, doesn't it? If there are big contrasts you can't do that without > risking over/under-exposure, can you? Correct. If the bird were flying from sun into shadow, I would stay in Av mode and use my experience to change the exposure compensation. At least with digital you can monitor the images and make adjustments so only losing a few shots.
> There's one situation where I've seen the above apply to me. I've been > interested in taking panorama shots, and have read that you really need > to find an average shutter value across all the shots, so that's what I > did, using a tripod and taking many shots next to another with the same > lighting/aperture. It turned out great! Yes, that is an excellent example of the need for manual.
> I played around with many different settings that evening and looked at > the results in the LCD display right away so I could learn something. I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You mean take another shot even darker? Yes.
>>Sunsets are very difficult if you want to show the dark >>parts in the scene too. The dynamic range is huge. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > past and gotten great results). > Lots of stuff to buy.... Yes, but a polarizer will not help a sunset image looking into the sun. Polarizers work when look 90 degrees from the sun.
>>>A third example is a tunnel which I've shot from the outside. Here the >>>sky and the entrance looks properly exposed while the tunnel itself is >>>very dark: http://home.c2i.net/w-460389/exposure/IMG_1457.jpg (1/500s,
> You mean take two shots at the exact same location (using a tripod), > but with different shutter settings, then use Photoshop to put the > different shots as layers on top of each other, mixing the best parts > of each shot together? Yes, sort of. But photoshop CS (I use CS2) blends the images automatically. Doing it by hand would be very difficult.
> Wouldn't that be extremely difficult? I mean, even the slightest > movement of the camera on the tripod would make the alignment of the > shots imperfect and end up with an unsharp result. Yes, you need a very sturdy tripod.
>>Photoshop will automatically merge the two images >>scaling them according to the exposure information. > > You mean there's an automatic function that even adjusts the minor > alignment problems? I use Photoshop elements 2.0 which I don't think > has anything that advanced. It is called merge to HDR or something like that. I'm not sure if it does an alignment, but there are other tools that can do that.
> Having gotten a darker background, should I lock the light meter at the > brightest (white) part of the cat? It's easier to correct an image > which is slightly under-exposed than over-exposed as far as I remember. Yes, that you be better than overexposing the cat. But knowing the cat is white, and metering on the white, you can then open up 1 to 2 stops to get the right exposure.
> Good point! I have to start thinking creatively from the start then. So > when I find something I want to shoot I'll ask myself what I want to > convey to the viewer. Yes, and you'll find that doing it right in the field save more time than trying to "fix it" in photoshop. While it is possible to do lots in photoshop, it can be very very time consuming. Personally, I'd rather be out photographing that fixing photos in photoshop.
> After having started to read the book and asking related questions here > I believe I've learnt quite a lot of the basic stuff. So to anyone else > starting out I would definitely recommend this book! Since you seem to like outdoors photography, check out all the books by John Shaw. I personally like his style, but regardless, he gives great advice on basic composition.
> It sure is. I can honestly say that I'm hooked! In one month I've taken > over 1100 shots! That's great for learning, but in the end a few quality images are worth millions of snapshots.
> It's fun learning as you go along and seeing that your results get > better and you're indeed getting closer to those "I wish I had a camera > and lens that could take pictures like that" type of shots :-) Yes, and the great thing is that you can learn your whole life, as there is really that much to learn. One thing: be patient. A year from now you may look back on photos taken now as not very good. Five years you may think the photos from the year before are lousy. Same 20 years from now. That shows growth.
Roger
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 08 Jul 2006 18:12 GMT Here is a good source of online articles:
http://ronbigelow.com/articles/articles.htm
In particular, start with composition, then exposure, levels and curves.
There is also the "previsualization" article that really should just be called visualization.
Once you have an image, you need to develop your own digital workflow. Here is mine: http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/digitalworkflow
Most images you see on the net have had some photoshop work. Digital camera images combined with the response of typical output media (computer screen or print) do not have the dynamic range and contrast of the original scene as perceived by the eye. Thus the image needs to be modified, usually with an "S" curve in photoshop. For example see Figure 6 at: http://ronbigelow.com/articles/curves-1/curves-1.htm then look at Figures 32 and 33 at: http://ronbigelow.com/articles/curves-2/curves-2.htm
Also check out Ron's articles on light: http://ronbigelow.com/articles/light/light.htm Note the macro images are really zoomed in so there is one subject filling the view. That avoids distracting elements.
Here is an interesting site with "macro" images, many done without a macro lens: http://www. |
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