Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / June 2006
high repair cost for canon 20d out-of-warranty
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fateman@gmail.com - 23 Jun 2006 21:01 GMT OK, so I accidentally banged my camera, a canon 20d. To my surprise, three pieces fell out of the bottom of the finder, into the mirror box. I carefully removed them: 1. a rectangular piece of frosted plastic with some tabs on the edges, maybe a fresnel lens, but maybe not. 2. a metal brass-colored rectangular frame with some asymmetric tabs not really matching the tabs of the other piece, and 3. a black metal rectangular frame that looks like a retaining framework with springy pieces.
I put the pieces in a plastic bag and tried to take photos. Yes, it worked but the exposure was way off. When I got home I tried to figure out how to replace these guys, but considering the number of possibilities, I decided I might damage something, and anyway it probably had to be recalibrated.
I sent it to Canon repair in Irvine, California. Within about 24 hours they emailed a repair estimate, including shipping, of $305. Whoa! I called them up and it turns out that this is their minimum. (They claim on the estimate to be replacing the mirror -- which is just fine -- and don't mention the viewfinder -- which is the problem. But the phone person said that I should ignore the exact message because the charge is always the same minimum.
This is the 2nd time the 20d visited the repair station. The first problem, under warranty, and right out of the box, was that the camera would try to pop up the flash, and fail. After 3 tries it gave up and shut down. They fixed it promptly, and free. Still not fun.
I think $305 is kind of high, and the camera is perhaps unreasonably delicate in ways that have nothing much to do with electronics. Maybe someone at Canon is reading this??
Måns Rullgård - 23 Jun 2006 21:08 GMT > OK, so I accidentally banged my camera, a canon 20d. To my surprise, > three pieces fell [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I sent it to Canon repair in Irvine, California. Within about 24 hours > they emailed a repair estimate, including shipping, of $305. Whoa! I You should have googled a little before sending it in. With a little luck, you would have found a detailed document explaining exactly how to put those things back in place: http://doug.kerr.home.att.net/pumpkin/Replace_focusing_screen_20D.pdf
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Pete D - 23 Jun 2006 22:46 GMT I don't need it but it is an excellent guide.
>> OK, so I accidentally banged my camera, a canon 20d. To my surprise, >> three pieces fell [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > to put those things back in place: > http://doug.kerr.home.att.net/pumpkin/Replace_focusing_screen_20D.pdf Alan Browne - 23 Jun 2006 21:20 GMT > I think $305 is kind of high, and the camera is perhaps unreasonably > delicate in ways that have nothing much to do with electronics. Maybe > someone at Canon is reading this?? If you consider the time it takes to decide what to do, doing it, parts, returning it incl. shipping and the capital cost (equipment/parts) of maintaining a repair depot, it's not that much. Stings, but it's not that much. Cut down on the beer (or other little comfort/luxury) for a year and its paid for.
Most Canon 20D owners find them reasonably robust. They are not hammers. If you hit it one way really hard: no damage; another way half as hard: kablooie. It's a bit of a lottery.
Cheers, Alan
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Jørn Dahl-Stamnes - 23 Jun 2006 23:50 GMT >> I think $305 is kind of high, and the camera is perhaps unreasonably >> delicate in ways that have nothing much to do with electronics. Maybe [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > hammers. If you hit it one way really hard: no damage; another way half > as hard: kablooie. It's a bit of a lottery. A friend of my dropped his 20D on the concrete floor twice. The camera was still OK, but he has to remove concrete particles that was press into the camera house.
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wilt - 24 Jun 2006 02:11 GMT > I sent it to Canon repair in Irvine, California. Within about 24 hours > they emailed a repair estimate, including shipping, of $305. Whoa! I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > delicate in ways that have nothing much to do with electronics. Maybe > someone at Canon is reading this?? Consider this...in 1980 salaries were considerable lower than today's. It would cost $120 minimum to look at a SLR back then. According to the Consumer Price Index, what was $120 in 1980 is $297 in 206 dollars! The increase is only 3.4% per year for the past 25 years!
mindesign - 24 Jun 2006 03:09 GMT >> I sent it to Canon repair in Irvine, California. Within about 24 hours >> they emailed a repair estimate, including shipping, of $305. Whoa! I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the Consumer Price Index, what was $120 in 1980 is $297 in 206 dollars! > The increase is only 3.4% per year for the past 25 years! All the price justifications fail to impress me - these people are experts in their trade, with a million spares at hand. They would know exactly how to repair anything sent to them in a flash - $300 minimum estimate is a bloody rip-off and something I will now carefully consider before committing to a new 30D
Steve
wilt - 24 Jun 2006 05:17 GMT > All the price justifications fail to impress me - these people are experts > in their trade, with a million spares at hand. They would know exactly how [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Steve My point is simply that YOU are not getting ripped off any worse than any other generation of photographers, so you can quit feeling sorry for yourself, because I've been there too, and so has everyone else who ever sent in any camera!
P - 24 Jun 2006 09:49 GMT > All the price justifications fail to impress me - these people are > experts in their trade, with a million spares at hand. They would > know exactly how to repair anything sent to them in a flash - $300 > minimum estimate is a bloody rip-off and something I will now > carefully consider before committing to a new 30D The repair probably costs $5.
Knowing *how to* costs the other $300.
Pete D - 26 Jun 2006 08:52 GMT >> All the price justifications fail to impress me - these people are >> experts in their trade, with a million spares at hand. They would [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Knowing *how to* costs the other $300. Sometimes knowhow is over changed like this, doesn't make it right, just makes it ripoff.
Prometheus - 26 Jun 2006 19:32 GMT In article <449f9253$0$6673$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>, Pete D <no@email.com> writes
>>> All the price justifications fail to impress me - these people are >>> experts in their trade, with a million spares at hand. They would [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Sometimes knowhow is over changed like this, doesn't make it right, just >makes it ripoff. Then offer to pay someone what YOU consider to be the going rate; after all, a commodity is only worth what people will pay for it.
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My Names Nobody - 26 Jun 2006 23:35 GMT >> All the price justifications fail to impress me - these people are >> experts in their trade, with a million spares at hand. They would [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Knowing *how to* costs the other $300. The cost of the repair and the know how are one thing, the cost of the building all employees, and all of the other costs of doing business (overhead) come into play too...
Derek Fountain - 24 Jun 2006 10:03 GMT > All the price justifications fail to impress me - these people are experts > in their trade, with a million spares at hand. They would know exactly how > to repair anything sent to them in a flash - $300 minimum estimate is a > bloody rip-off and something I will now carefully consider before committing > to a new 30D What sort of argument is that? You acknowledge their expertise and intimate knowledge of a very complex device, then say it's a bloody rip off that they charge top dollar for their service?
If you disagree with their valuation of the investment they've made in training their staff, precision equipment, etc., you can always do the fix yourself. Shouldn't take you more than a couple of years research and a couple of dozen camera bodies to practice on.
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achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 25 Jun 2006 18:19 GMT > What sort of argument is that? You acknowledge their expertise and > intimate knowledge of a very complex device, then say it's a bloody rip [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > fix yourself. Shouldn't take you more than a couple of years research > and a couple of dozen camera bodies to practice on. But that's not why they can charge so much. The reason is a combination of a) having a monopoly (since nobody else knows how to do it and can access spare parts) and b) our willingness to pay. It has almost nothing to do with skill (except inasmuch as they need something to sell, to wit, the skill).
A good example is this: someone with a phd in theoretical physics (say) has quite specialised expertise in pretty complicated methods and ideas, which takes time to develop and is anyway inaccessible to most people since it requires specific abilities. Yet, the average salary for practicing it is literally ridiculous compared to that person's skills (compared, for example, to what the same person would get in a bank as a quant). Thus, it is not the difficulty in acquiring the skills, nor the mere possession of them, that gives them value, but a combination of demand and willingness of people to pay for them.
Completely obvious, actually. Don't know why I wrote two paragraphs on it.
Mick Anderson - 24 Jun 2006 23:10 GMT > All the price justifications fail to impress me - these people are > experts in their trade, with a million spares at hand. They would know > exactly how to repair anything sent to them in a flash - $300 minimum > estimate is a bloody rip-off and something I will now carefully consider > before committing to a new 30D I think that people come to a "justified" or "rip-off" conclusion by comparing the price asked to the price of a new item, but it's not a valid comparison. The likes of Canon (and all other camers manufacturers) are primarily geared up as a manufacturing organisation, where these things are made in highly automated factories.
With repairs they are now accounting for a far less automated and far more labour intensive environment - they have the expenses of paying the staff - training the staff - funding the facilities - developing and maintaining expensive test and repair equipment - plus when all of their expenses are paid they want to return a profit so that they can have a return on their investment.
Many will adopt a standard repair charge (call it what they like), but in many cases to cut down on the labour component they tend to adopt a fairly agressive policy of replacing the "next higher assembly". As an example of this Hewlett Packard used to break a particular inkjet printer down into only 3 components (case, printing mechanism, and power supply) - if you had a chipped line feed idler gear they wouldn't replace the 10c gear - they replace the entire printing assembly - charge you a standard repair fee - and out the door it goes - next please. Same with their calculators - mine developed a broken key, but they don't fix keys - the keys are on the PCB which also contains the CPU + memory + display which is all welded to the plastic facia - so what you got back was in essence the original rear 1/2 of the case, and that's all.
I'm not sure what Canon's policy is, but they could well adipt a policy of replacing entire front ends from stock units - it's easier for them - you get a better result - and it costs a known amount.
I'd be VERY surprised if any of the major manufacturers were any different.
Thomas - 25 Jun 2006 10:21 GMT > Many will adopt a standard repair charge (call it what they like), but in > many cases to cut down on the labour component they tend to adopt a fairly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a chipped line feed idler gear they wouldn't replace the 10c gear - they > replace the entire printing assembly I agree that there are a lot of situations where this makes sense. Especially if something way inside the mechanism is broken, the disassembly alone could take ages. So swapping the whole unit can be necessary. Unfortunately, for the consumer it is usually cheaper to just get a new device, so from a repair perspective the whole device is just 1 component. I learnend this when I repairs the aperture mechanism of a Minolta 7000, which took me 4 hours (granted, a skilled professional would probably do it within 2 hours...).
But there are easier cases, when the broken part is accessible and easy to replace. The part will be just 10 cents to produce; plus stocking it may cost 5 bucks. Add five minutes labour, and the bottom line should still be very affordable. However, with a standard repair charge even a simple repair as this woud be charged hundreds of bucks, and so the customer will probably decide against it. What is economical in that? Especially since I would not buy from the same brand again.
Thomas
C J Southern - 26 Jun 2006 04:55 GMT > But there are easier cases, when the broken part is accessible and easy > to replace. If they stock the part - often it's already pre-assembled as part of something bigger.
> The part will be just 10 cents to produce; plus stocking it > may cost 5 bucks. Add five minutes labour, and the bottom line should > still be very affordable. However, with a standard repair charge even a > simple repair as this woud be charged hundreds of bucks, and so the > customer will probably decide against it. The other danger is that if, for example, it's "just a mirror", what's to say that there aren't other "walking wounded" parts that were damaged by the same drop - last thing you want is to have a new mirror fitted and then a week later something else breaks.
The other issue is that by doing it in major assemblies they know what their costs are, and how long things take - plus they definately want to make a profit on the exercise.
Alan Browne - 24 Jun 2006 23:22 GMT > "wilt" <wiltw@aol.com> wrote in message
>>Consider this...in 1980 salaries were considerable lower than today's. >>It would cost $120 minimum to look at a SLR back then. According to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > bloody rip-off and something I will now carefully consider before committing > to a new 30D You're ignoring the costs of maintaining a shop and the value of the expertise. Those spare parts at hand have a carrying cost as well.
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Sheldon - 25 Jun 2006 00:49 GMT >>> I sent it to Canon repair in Irvine, California. Within about 24 hours >>> they emailed a repair estimate, including shipping, of $305. Whoa! I [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Steve Well, back in the good old days, they did a lot more than just replace the parts. They would lubricate and calibrate the entire camera as well. Many pros would just wait until the camera broke before sending it in for "preventative" lubrication, as the price was the same. It's possible they spent a lot more time on your camera than you thought, and they do this with every camera aside from the repair. Even though it's digital, it still has a lot of moving parts in there.
Compare this to sending in a defective Rolex, Omega, or other fine watch for repair or just maintenance. You get a complete overhaul, including a handful of new parts for the price of about 100 Timex watches -- that all keep better time than your Rolex.
The problem is, we don't know exactly what they do to the camera. I doubt they just put the old parts back and send it on its way.
Brion K. Lienhart - 26 Jun 2006 05:41 GMT > All the price justifications fail to impress me - these people are experts > in their trade, with a million spares at hand. They would know exactly how > to repair anything sent to them in a flash - $300 minimum estimate is a > bloody rip-off and something I will now carefully consider before committing > to a new 30D You think its so easy You repair it. Anybody who actually repairs cameras instead of just telling you to buy a new one will charge pretty near the same amount.
Pete D - 26 Jun 2006 08:57 GMT >> All the price justifications fail to impress me - these people are >> experts in their trade, with a million spares at hand. They would know [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > instead of just telling you to buy a new one will charge pretty near the > same amount. We call that colusion don't we? Doesn't make it fair or right.
J. Clarke - 26 Jun 2006 14:06 GMT >>> All the price justifications fail to impress me - these people are >>> experts in their trade, with a million spares at hand. They would know [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > We call that colusion don't we? No, we call it "understanding the problem".
> Doesn't make it fair or right. The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it unfair or wrong either.
Camera repair is not performed by high school dropouts making minimum wage you know--good techs cost, tools cost, the building costs, the land that it sits on costs, lights cost, heat costs, taxes cost, paperwork costs if it takes three hours from open the box to close the box then there's your 300 bucks.
As for "knowing how to repair anything sent to them in a flash", it's easy to criticize when you don't have to do the work. Diagnosis is often the most expensive part of the job.
Tell me, have you ever worked a job where you were expected to repair complicated things that were brought in broken? If not then perhaps you should cut those who are in that business some slack. If you have been in that business and know of a more fair pricing scheme then please be kind enough to present it.
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Pete D - 26 Jun 2006 23:53 GMT >>>> All the price justifications fail to impress me - these people are >>>> experts in their trade, with a million spares at hand. They would know [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > No, we call it "understanding the problem". I am a technician and repair many electronic items, never would I consider charging the way Canon does, never, ever. If you are happy with their methods then fine, good on you. Still doesn't make it right.
J. Clarke - 27 Jun 2006 01:04 GMT >>>>> All the price justifications fail to impress me - these people are >>>>> experts in their trade, with a million spares at hand. They would know [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > charging the way Canon does, never, ever. If you are happy with their > methods then fine, good on you. Still doesn't make it right. So tell us a fair pricing structure.
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