Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / June 2006
Strange coloration problems with D70...
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Randy Howard - 16 Jun 2006 21:08 GMT Since I started playing with this new 18-200 VR lens, I've seen some strange things happening with photos that are 'backlit'. With or without the sunshade, with or without a filter on the lens.
For a scene that is shot 'near' the sun on a bright day (no sun in the lens, no flare), and only in some of the shots, I will get bizarre color banding only in the sky portion of the frame. Everything else looks pretty much as expected. In some cases all, or most of the blue sky will actually be black and white (as if you did a desaturate in PS). In some cases part will be black and white, part will be purple with a lot of banding (like 256-color mapping on an image) and a small part in the corner farthest from the sun will be the expected blue.
Can VR be the culprit here? Some strange bug with D70 firmware and this new lens? I've never seen this happen before in almost 4000 frames, and I have about 15 examples out of the last 200 photos taken that demonstrate it with this lens.
 Signature Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR) "The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
DoN. Nichols - 16 Jun 2006 21:49 GMT According to Randy Howard <randyhoward@FOOverizonBAR.net>:
> Since I started playing with this new 18-200 VR lens, I've seen > some strange things happening with photos that are 'backlit'. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > 4000 frames, and I have about 15 examples out of the last 200 > photos taken that demonstrate it with this lens. I've never heard of it, but I have to believe that it is a function of the lens, since I've never seen such behavior on my D70 with any of my lenses.
I wonder whether it is something like an artifact of the lens' refraction producing a hot spot of either IR or UV (thus not visible in the viewfinder) which is doing strange things to the color correction values.
Did you shoot these in RAW or JPEG? I would be interested in seeing what difference you get between the two modes.
Did you have the sun hood mounted on the lens? I've not handled this lens, but I can't imagine a hood designed for 18mm being of much use at 200mm.
And I am interested in knowing whether others are experiencing similar behavior -- including with other bodies.
Now to sit back and see what others report.
Good Luck, DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Randy Howard - 16 Jun 2006 22:30 GMT DoN. Nichols wrote (in article <e6v5ft21kj0@news1.newsguy.com>):
> According to Randy Howard <randyhoward@FOOverizonBAR.net>: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > function of the lens, since I've never seen such behavior on my D70 with > any of my lenses. I wonder if it is possible for something basically optical, but with electronic connections to the camera to cause something like that. IOW, could I have a bad lens somehow?
> I wonder whether it is something like an artifact of the lens' > refraction producing a hot spot of either IR or UV (thus not visible in > the viewfinder) which is doing strange things to the color correction > values. True, but I am not shooting straight into the soon. Shots in very bright light (not ideal shooting times granted, but still) as far as 40 degrees away from the sun have exhibited this, and only on the blue sky. VERY strange.
> Did you shoot these in RAW or JPEG? I would be interested in > seeing what difference you get between the two modes. I shoot raw all the time. I can shoot some jpg test shots, but I don't know how many it will take to happen. It seems to come and go intermittently.
> Did you have the sun hood mounted on the lens? I've not handled > this lens, but I can't imagine a hood designed for 18mm being of much > use at 200mm. I did almost all of the time, especially in bright light, and you don't have to be on the long end of the zoom range to make it happen.
I also see a lot of chromatic aberration with this lens not present on my other (typically more expensive) nikon lenses also, but that's not correlated with these pictures, just a comment on the lens in general.
Also, anyone thinking about using VR to take pictures of moving water, like water flowing in a river, don't. You get these weird artificial lines around ripples in water as a result. Looks very unnatural.
> And I am interested in knowing whether others are experiencing > similar behavior -- including with other bodies. > > Now to sit back and see what others report. I'm very curious...
 Signature Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR) "The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
DoN. Nichols - 16 Jun 2006 23:23 GMT According to Randy Howard <randyhoward@FOOverizonBAR.net>:
> DoN. Nichols wrote > (in article <e6v5ft21kj0@news1.newsguy.com>): [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >> in the lens, no flare), and only in some of the shots, I will > >> get bizarre color banding only in the sky portion of the frame. [ ... ]
> >> Can VR be the culprit here? Some strange bug with D70 firmware > >> and this new lens? I've never seen this happen before in almost [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > with electronic connections to the camera to cause something > like that. IOW, could I have a bad lens somehow? I don't think that the lens is *electronically* confusing the camera. The protocol between them is designed to carry only a limited number of kinds of information, and it should perhaps be able to result in a poor exposure, but nothing more.
*Maybe* if the contacts have oxidized, you might be getting noise into the camera's electronics -- and maybe the power drain of the VR feature might be doing strange things, if your battery is not fully charged -- or if the *battery's* contacts are oxidized.
Now -- I *could* see some strange optical artifact confusing the color balance. And, as I mentioned before, it could be something in a part of the spectrum not visible to the human eye, but visible to the various sensors in the camera body.
> > I wonder whether it is something like an artifact of the lens' > > refraction producing a hot spot of either IR or UV (thus not visible in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I don't know how many it will take to happen. It seems to come > and go intermittently. No need. I thought that you might be seeing an artifact of jpeg processing, but if you are shooting raw, that eliminates most of those possibilities.
> > Did you have the sun hood mounted on the lens? I've not handled > > this lens, but I can't imagine a hood designed for 18mm being of much [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > you don't have to be on the long end of the zoom range to make > it happen. O.K. Do you have another body which you can try the lens on? Or can you talk to your camera store about trying another lens, while leaving yours as security, to see if you can duplicate the problems you are seeing?
> I also see a lot of chromatic aberration with this lens not > present on my other (typically more expensive) nikon lenses > also, but that's not correlated with these pictures, just a > comment on the lens in general. O.K. That might be an argument for me to not get one.
> Also, anyone thinking about using VR to take pictures of moving > water, like water flowing in a river, don't. You get these > weird artificial lines around ripples in water as a result. > Looks very unnatural. I'll bet. :-)
> > And I am interested in knowing whether others are experiencing > > similar behavior -- including with other bodies. > > > > Now to sit back and see what others report. > > I'm very curious... So -- we wait.
Good Luck, DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Randy Howard - 17 Jun 2006 01:53 GMT DoN. Nichols wrote (in article <e6vb0702e5e@news3.newsguy.com>):
>> I wonder if it is possible for something basically optical, but >> with electronic connections to the camera to cause something [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > part of the spectrum not visible to the human eye, but visible to the > various sensors in the camera body. Yeah, sounds very unlikely, but I have no idea how the VR stuff actually works. Is there an article somewhere that explains the black magic?
>>> Did you have the sun hood mounted on the lens? I've not handled >>> this lens, but I can't imagine a hood designed for 18mm being of much [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > O.K. Do you have another body which you can try the lens on? I have an F5, but don't feel like processing rolls of slide film to try and make it happen. :-)
> Or can you talk to your camera store about trying another lens, while > leaving yours as security, to see if you can duplicate the problems you > are seeing? Possibly, but I'm on an airplane in two days, so I can't do it right now.
 Signature Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR) "The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
DoN. Nichols - 17 Jun 2006 02:57 GMT According to Randy Howard <randyhoward@FOOverizonBAR.net>:
> DoN. Nichols wrote > (in article <e6vb0702e5e@news3.newsguy.com>): [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I don't think that the lens is *electronically* confusing the > > camera. The protocol between them is designed to carry only a limited [ ... ]
> > Now -- I *could* see some strange optical artifact confusing the > > color balance. And, as I mentioned before, it could be something in a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > actually works. Is there an article somewhere that explains the > black magic? I don't know of an article, but I'll tell you how I *think* that they work. Obviously, they need to derive power from the camera's body.
Start with a set of sensors which detect angular changes in each of the primary two axes on the film. (There is nothing which the VR can do about rotating the lens around its center axis, as far as I know.)
Then add an optical element close to the nodal point of the lens, which can be either slid up-and-down or sideways, or which can tilt the optical element -- with either causing the image to move on the sensor (or film).
Finally -- add a bit of computation gear which can translate the sensed motion in the two axes into control voltages applied to the optical element so when the motion would make the image move on the sensor, the controller adjusts the position of the element so it keeps the image steady -- at least until you run out of travel in the element, such as if you are pivoting to track a sports event or something similar. (I've not handled a Nikon lens with VR, but the one Canon lens so equipped was supplied with a switch to turn off the VR when you are tracking so it does not fight you.)
Of course, zoom optics complicate the computation, as how much you need to adjust the position of the image on the sensor would be a function of the current focal-length setting.
And the one camera which does it in the body instead of in the lens does it (I believe) by moving the sensor up and down or sideways.
Needless to say, it makes no sense for the VR to work full time, so it needs to receive a signal from the camera that the shutter release is half-depressed so it should start compensating.
I would be interested to see replies by others who may know more correcting my guesses.
Can you tell whether the VR feature was turned on during the trouble shots? Could it be that you were panning without switching off the horizontal correction, and your exposure happened during a time when the lens was quickly snapping back to the other side of the travel to try to stabilize again after running out of travel? Does the camera write whether VR was in effect in the EXIF data? If so, you should be able to tell when it was enabled and when it was not.
> >>> Did you have the sun hood mounted on the lens? I've not handled > >>> this lens, but I can't imagine a hood designed for 18mm being of much [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I have an F5, but don't feel like processing rolls of slide film > to try and make it happen. :-) I can understand that. Does that lens even handle full frame? From the notice on the B&H web page for that lens, there is the following warning:
====================================================================== Important Notice! Use of DX lenses are NOT recommended with 35mm or APS SLR cameras ======================================================================
which suggests that it does not properly fill the 35mm frame.
> > Or can you talk to your camera store about trying another lens, while > > leaving yours as security, to see if you can duplicate the problems you > > are seeing? > > Possibly, but I'm on an airplane in two days, so I can't do it > right now. That does indeed set limits.
You might try turning on and off the VR feature, and see whether it makes a difference with the shots you get -- trying to duplicate the illumination angles which were in effect when you got the problem shots.
Good Luck, DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Paul Furman - 16 Jun 2006 21:53 GMT > Since I started playing with this new 18-200 VR lens, I've seen > some strange things happening with photos that are 'backlit'. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in the lens, no flare), and only in some of the shots, I will > get bizarre color banding only in the sky portion of the frame. Chromatic abberation? Can you post an example? Sensor blooming (purple fringing)? Default high contrast jpeg settings? Blown colors? (check the histogram in photoshop)
> Everything else looks pretty much as expected. In some cases > all, or most of the blue sky will actually be black and white [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 4000 frames, and I have about 15 examples out of the last 200 > photos taken that demonstrate it with this lens. Randy Howard - 16 Jun 2006 22:34 GMT Paul Furman wrote (in article <ZSEkg.24815$VE1.11630@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>):
>> Since I started playing with this new 18-200 VR lens, I've seen >> some strange things happening with photos that are 'backlit'. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Chromatic abberation? This lens certainly suffers from that, especially towards the long end, but the angle of the sun relative to the frame doesn't seem to impact that.
> Can you post an example? I'll have to figure out where to put it, but yeah. I think I have a temporary account on pbase I can put it on for a little while longer. I'm about to leave for a trip where I was planning to use this lens a lot, but I'm having second thoughts now.
> Sensor blooming (purple fringing)? I had one image with a very obvious bright red dot (like a stuck pixel on a monitor), but nowhere else.
> Default high contrast jpeg settings? Not shooting jpg, and have the camera set with minimal internal adjustments.
> Blown colors? (check the histogram in photoshop) nothing stood out before, but I can go back and look at some of the examples that did and did not show the problem while shot in the same location.
 Signature Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR) "The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
JTS Brown - 17 Jun 2006 15:43 GMT > Since I started playing with this new 18-200 VR lens, I've seen > some strange things happening with photos that are 'backlit'. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > 4000 frames, and I have about 15 examples out of the last 200 > photos taken that demonstrate it with this lens. It is a known problem--you have a bad lens. Return to Nikon for recoating.
Good Luck
Randy Howard - 17 Jun 2006 17:57 GMT JTS Brown wrote (in article <KyUkg.148880$F_3.50423@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>):
>> Since I started playing with this new 18-200 VR lens, I've seen >> some strange things happening with photos that are 'backlit'. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > It is a known problem--you have a bad lens. Return to Nikon for recoating. Wow... do you have a link somewhere to Nikon on this? Search keywords??
 Signature Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR) "The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
Alan Browne - 17 Jun 2006 19:48 GMT > Since I started playing with this new 18-200 VR lens, I've seen > some strange things happening with photos that are 'backlit'. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > 4000 frames, and I have about 15 examples out of the last 200 > photos taken that demonstrate it with this lens. I've had similar problems in very high contrast scenes with overexposure (Minolta 7D). The VR might increase color problems as it is yet another piece of glass in the chain.
Can you post your images?
Verify the so-called "re-coating" issue that JTS-B brings up. His recent posting record (In the main they are one liner insults) does not indicate that he is a genuine contributor ... might be baiting you. I found no web references to this claimed problem (but I didn't search very hard ... you should).
Cheers, Alan
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Randy Howard - 17 Jun 2006 22:56 GMT Alan Browne wrote (in article <e71iq1$mto$2@inews.gazeta.pl>):
>> Since I started playing with this new 18-200 VR lens, I've seen >> some strange things happening with photos that are 'backlit'. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Can you post your images? I'm about to leave for a trip and don't really have the time to set that up. By the time I return I should have a lot more. Unlike my original plan, I'll definitely be carrying some other glass along, along with a notebook and PS CS2. Depending on connectivity where I'm headed, I might even get some images pushed up remotely.
> Verify the so-called "re-coating" issue that JTS-B brings up. His > recent posting record (In the main they are one liner insults) does not > indicate that he is a genuine contributor ... might be baiting you. I > found no web references to this claimed problem (but I didn't search > very hard ... you should). I looked everywhere I could imagine with a variety of search terms and checked the nikon pages, found nothing.
I did find an interesting article on the VR stuff itself, not specific to the D70, but probably close enough here, if anyone is interested:
http://nikonimaging.com/global/products/digitalcamera/coolpix/880 0/vr/index2.htm
But, nothing about a 'known problem' with coatings on the 18-200mm.
 Signature Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR) "The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 17 Jun 2006 23:17 GMT >I did find an interesting article on the VR stuff itself, not >specific to the D70, but probably close enough here, if anyone >is interested: > >http://nikonimaging.com/global/products/digitalcamera/coolpix/8800/vr/index2.htm better is: http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/portfolio/about/technology/nikon_technology/vr_e /index.htm -- Ed Ruf (Usenet2@EdwardG.Ruf.com) http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
Joan - 18 Jun 2006 00:29 GMT Did you try the telephone?
 Signature Joan http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly
: I looked everywhere I could imagine with a variety of search : terms and checked the nikon pages, found nothing. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] : But, nothing about a 'known problem' with coatings on the : 18-200mm. Pat - 18 Jun 2006 17:51 GMT Just a couple of outlandish thoughts:
When you take the picture and it displays on your screen on the back of the camera, is it there? After it is written to the memory card, retrieve it. It is there? Does it only appear on pix after they are written to your hard drive? Memory problems could create banding. Lines would be perfectly horizontal or vertical and would probably not be consistant (reproducable). If you shoot to pix in a row, is the banding the same? You aren't compressing the pix somewhere along the line, are you?
The back of the lens, the very back of the mount, isn't polished metal is it. If so, hit it with a black magic marker and see what happens. Could be light between the camera mount and the sensor bouncing around the mad. Different lenses would have different results.
Take the lens off and look through it. Does it look okay? Also check on the camera in preview (check depth of field) mode. Does everything look okay?
Leave you lens cap on, set your ISO all the way up (highest number) and take a 1 minute or so exposure. Check that. Then shoot a white piece of paper and process that. See if there's anything.
Finally, check this lense of a different camera and different lenses on this camera. Would be cool to post links to 4 pix. Shoot the same scene with same settings: Camera A and Lens A; Camera B and Lens B; Camera A and lens B; and Camera B and Lens A. Then people would have something to debate.
Good luck.
> Since I started playing with this new 18-200 VR lens, I've seen > some strange things happening with photos that are 'backlit'. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > "The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those > who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw cjcampbell - 19 Jun 2006 02:12 GMT > Since I started playing with this new 18-200 VR lens, I've seen > some strange things happening with photos that are 'backlit'. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > 4000 frames, and I have about 15 examples out of the last 200 > photos taken that demonstrate it with this lens. I have not seen this in thousands of pictures taken on my D70 with the 18-200mm VR. I think that you have some sort of defective lens.
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