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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / June 2006

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D70s and 1600iso

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kris.vandevijver@gmail.com - 01 Jun 2006 09:15 GMT
Hi,

I've shot twice with 1600iso since i've got my D70s recently.
One time was with dark cloudy wheather and one time at night seeing
only neon and street lights.
In both cases the noise was very disturbing!  (When using film, the
grain can be beautiful but i find the digital noise very ugly).  Tried
fixing things with photoshop and the Neat Image plugin, but couldn't
get it right.   At the end, all the pictures were useless and i
couldn't post them on my photoblog (note: i'm not talking about making
large prints!).

So my question is,  is it because i don't know the d70s body and is it
because i'm missing functions/buttons/whatever which compensate this?

If nothing or little can be done,  then my question is:  are people
actually using iso1600 on digital cameras in general or more specific
with the Nikon D70(s) ?   I'd love to see some examples then of
pictures shot in with this iso setting!

Thanks for the help guys!
Kris
Ed Ruf  (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 01 Jun 2006 10:44 GMT
>Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>with the Nikon D70(s) ?   I'd love to see some examples then of
>pictures shot in with this iso setting!

You have to make sure the images are properly exposed to get the best.
Otherwise when you correct the exposure in post processing the noise will
be amplified as well. For the nighttime shots you might consider using the
built in noise reduction as well. For NI to work best you should start with
the proper profile for the D70/s at 1600 and then go on from there.

Here are 3ISO 1600 shots with my D70, cleaned up with Neat Image:
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/dSLR/wildlife/slides/DSC_1984.html
almost no NI reduction here as it was a well lit shot.

http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/dSLR/wildlife/slides/DSC_4099acr_ni_mu
sm_cr1600x1200_bcsrp800x600.html

http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/dSLR/wildlife/slides/DSC_4100_cr800x60
0.html

These were shot at just after dawn and needed some more cleaning up.
--
Ed Ruf (Usenet2@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
Bigguy - 01 Jun 2006 11:00 GMT
Here's a shot I took in low light at 1600 ISO...

http://www.guytittley.co.uk/pages/D701600.html

Shot with D70 + AF Nikkor 80-200mm f2.8 ED (at 80mm)
1/60 sec at f2.8 hand-held laening against a stone pillar in low light...

RAW to tiff in Nikon Capture v4.4 with some noise reduction.
Some further processing in PS and saved as jpeg.  See Exif info...

Perfectly usable and far nicer than using flash which would have killed the
atmosphere...

Guy

> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Thanks for the help guys!
> Kris
Patrick L - 01 Jun 2006 18:53 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Thanks for the help guys!
> Kris

I shoot weddings with a Canon 20D,  and Olympus E1s.  My assistant shoots
with a D70.    The D70 is as noisy as the E1,  and I've seen the files often
enough.

One can argue that  noise will be minimized with proper exposures,  but in
the fast paced environment of weddings or any candid environment,   plus the
lack of exposure latitude of digital cameras,  getting proper exposures
isn't always possible, and so what is needed is a camera that can shoot at
ISO 1600,  and still have an acceptable noise level even if underexposed a
stop and a half, and so I'm coining a new concept, "noise latitude", if it
hasn't already been coined.     In this regard,  the 20D blows the D70 away,
and I've seen all of my assistants files and compared them to that of the
20Ds.

If you have the time to dick around with the settings on a given shot to
make sure the exposure is perfect for the D70, fine,  but if you want to
shoot candids in low light,  then the best advice I can give is switch to
Canon.  I've seen D2x files undexposed and they are no better in this
regard, though I don't know about the D200.    I have recommended to my
assistant,  who is a die hard Nikon fan ( mostly from the film days,  and
there Nikon is superb ),   to switch,  but we both agree that we should see
how the D200 fairs in this regard,  since he has such a substantial
investment in Nikon lenses.

Patrick
l e o - 02 Jun 2006 17:43 GMT
>> Hi,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> Patrick

My friend's Pentax Ds is very noisy at ISO 1600; can't compete with
Canon 300D and 20D.
Pete D - 02 Jun 2006 23:27 GMT
> My friend's Pentax Ds is very noisy at ISO 1600; can't compete with
> Canon 300D and 20D.

Thats interesting, my Ds is quite useable at 1600 and 3200 depending on what
I am doing, mostly the noise is reasonably dealt with using one of the noise
removing tools I have. Can you post some links to some examples showing all
cameras under the same conditions? It does depend on how big I want to
print, prints are much better than if I am using the shot to just post on
the web or look on the PC.
Paul Furman - 01 Jun 2006 23:40 GMT
> So my question is,  is it because i don't know the d70s body and is it
> because i'm missing functions/buttons/whatever which compensate this?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> with the Nikon D70(s) ?   I'd love to see some examples then of
> pictures shot in with this iso setting!

One thing you might do is turn down the in-camera contrast, sharpening &
saturation boost. Then selectively sharpen with masking in PS. Here's
some I did on a D200, many are ISO 800, this one is ISO 3200 and was
rather over-processed but if you scroll down you can see a jpeg without
boosted contrast and that's even cleaner than raw though there is less
detail.
<http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=California/Bay-Area/San-Francisco/edgeh
ill-garden/Nursery/plants/2006-05-25-closeups&PG=5&PIC=25
>

The thing is, I needed DOF for the closeups plus there was wind blowing
so even in bright light the high ISO was very useful and I would not
have been able to get the images without it. High ISO is always going to
be better than underexposing or motion blur.
Vladislav - 02 Jun 2006 01:28 GMT
All camera vendors have same problem - that is a property of CCD or
CMOS sensors, a camera firmware of course has a options for a noise
supression, but real nature of semiconductors beat all algorithms.

http://www.terekhoff.com
JPS@no.komm - 02 Jun 2006 05:03 GMT
>Hi,

>I've shot twice with 1600iso since i've got my D70s recently.
>One time was with dark cloudy wheather and one time at night seeing
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>couldn't post them on my photoblog (note: i'm not talking about making
>large prints!).

How are you downsampling the web pictures?  That can make all the
difference in the world.  "Nearest Neighbor" is one that keeps a
fraction of the pixels, and drops the others.  Nearest Neighbor actually
increases the noise at the pixel level when downsizing.  Something like
Bicubic *decreases* the noise upon downsampling

>So my question is,  is it because i don't know the d70s body and is it
>because i'm missing functions/buttons/whatever which compensate this?

When judging what ISO you have to use, you should always make the choice
between *fully* exposed histograms.  With most cameras, a stop of
under-exposure results in a bit more noise than a stop higher ISO with a
stop higher exposure compensation.
Signature


<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Ed Ruf  (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 18 Jun 2006 19:07 GMT
>Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>with the Nikon D70(s) ?   I'd love to see some examples then of
>pictures shot in with this iso setting!

On 1 Jun 2006 01:15:32 -0700, in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems you wrote:

>Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>with the Nikon D70(s) ?   I'd love to see some examples then of
>pictures shot in with this iso setting!

FWIW here's another 1600 iso shot taken with a D200, raw noise reduction in
RSE, followed by Neat Image.
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/dSLR/wildlife/slides/DSC_1813-02_cr160
0_800.html

As I said before getting proper exposure is paramount to not having noise
dominate the scene.
--
Ed Ruf (Usenet2@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
JPS@no.komm - 18 Jun 2006 22:39 GMT
>FWIW here's another 1600 iso shot taken with a D200, raw noise reduction in
>RSE, followed by Neat Image.
>http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/dSLR/wildlife/slides/DSC_1813-02_cr160
0_800.html

How much of a downsample is that?  Noise and lack of detail is easily
hidden by downsampling.
Signature


<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Ed Ruf  (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 19 Jun 2006 00:57 GMT
>>FWIW here's another 1600 iso shot taken with a D200, raw noise reduction in
>>RSE, followed by Neat Image.
>>http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/dSLR/wildlife/slides/DSC_1813-02_cr160
0_800.html

>
>How much of a downsample is that?  Noise and lack of detail is easily
>hidden by downsampling.

2x.  It is a 1600 x 1200 crop down sampled to 800 x 600 for posting on my
web site.
--
Ed Ruf (Usenet2@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
 
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