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Joan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly
>Up until now I haven't had enough files on a card to cause the camera
>to create a second folder. Today I didn't clear the card after
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>The only thing that I did during the shoot was change the battery, but
>it was long after the original 5251 and 5252 were taken.
And your point or question is?
Ok a stab, why/how did this happen? One thing you need to be aware of is
that it is possible to get the camera to change the sequence by putting the
card back in with a different image number on it. The camera checks the
card for the highest number on it and can rest it's numbering starting off
from than number. An issue to be aware of if you routinely don't clean
cards or if you swap cards between cameras with cleaning them out.
For instance, delete all the files on the card then transfer #500.jpg back
and you could find the next number in sequence will be reset to 501.
--
Ed Ruf (Usenet2@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
Joan - 01 Jun 2006 11:01 GMT
That doesn't explain it. The duplicate number happened within 15
minutes and the card didn't come out of the camera and the camera
wasn't connected to a computer. My D50 is the only camera I have that
uses SD cards.

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Joan
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"Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!)" <egruf_usenet2@cox.net> wrote in
message news:m0dt725jtlne03btbqbjlschfk0gnruf90@4ax.com...
:
: >Up until now I haven't had enough files on a card to cause the camera
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
: --
: Ed Ruf (Usenet2@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
I don't know why you would have dup numbers on the same card, but if
you use the camera to delete pictures as you are taking them, it
sometimes makes the numbering go funny, especially if you take some
pictures, sit down and delete what you don't want, then take more pix,
etc.
Peter A - 01 Jun 2006 15:16 GMT
> especially if you take some
> pictures, sit down and delete what you don't want, then take more pix,
> etc.
You just described *exactly* how I use my D70s. Is this not good
practice, then?
I do recall having an issue, once only, but I never connected it with
this habit. I do it if I'm shooting horses, particularly,to dump the
eye shut/tongue hanging out inevitables - It just seems logical to dump
the dross in favour of memory space.
At least it explains that little glitch that day (similar to the one
discussed here, but I don't recall the details)
Pat - 01 Jun 2006 18:24 GMT
It's a glitch on my camera and I have no idea why. So I stopped
deleting bad ones to avoid it.
Anothe similar issue is how images are copied off the card to the HD.
For some reason, the order of the folders sometimes get screwed up.
But that generally happen more when a folder starts in the middle of a
count and doesn't have a full 100 images in it.For example, if forlder
1 has XX56 to X100 and folder 2 had X101 to X138 then you remove the
card and folder 3 had X139 to X200, etc. Then I've had pix all of of
order.
Smarter people than me will tell you why, but I just avoid it to keep
out of trouble.
Good luck.
Jeremy Nixon - 01 Jun 2006 22:04 GMT
>> especially if you take some pictures, sit down and delete what you don't
>> want, then take more pix, etc.
>
> You just described *exactly* how I use my D70s. Is this not good
> practice, then?
I do that all the time, and have never once seen anything like that happen,
with a D70 and a D2X.

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Jeremy | jeremy@exit109.com
Joan - 02 Jun 2006 09:43 GMT
I never delete files from the card in the camera. I always copy files
to the pc and when I'm ready I put the card back in the camera and
format it. I have the camera set to continue numbering.

Signature
Joan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly
:I don't know why you would have dup numbers on the same card, but if
: you use the camera to delete pictures as you are taking them, it
: sometimes makes the numbering go funny, especially if you take some
: pictures, sit down and delete what you don't want, then take more pix,
: etc.
According to Joan <Joan@home.tosh>:
> Up until now I haven't had enough files on a card to cause the camera
> to create a second folder. Today I didn't clear the card after
> downloading a bunch of shots and went out to take a few shots of
> tonight's sunset.
Do you mean that when you downloaded *some* shots, you deleted
those from the media and left others which might have had higher and
lower image numbers?
And did you do this with the card in the camera, or by moving to
to a card reader and then moving it back.
Note that I use the D70, not the D50, and thus use CF cards, not
SD cards, but otherwise things should be about the same.
> Looking at the card I have a second folder - no surprise there.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> 5251 and 5252. These numbers were of course in the first folder as
> well.
O.K. There are not enough images in that first folder to
account for the creation of a second folder. Normally, that happens
either when there are 999 images in a folder, or when the image number
reaches 9999.
What I *think* happened here is (assuming that you deleted some
images in a card reader on the computer and then re-inserted the card in
the camera) that the camera started reading through the highest-numbered
folder looking for the end after finding the first image number in that
folder. What happened is that it reached (say 5250) and saw that 5251
was not present, it set the number to 5251, without bothering to see
whether there was anything beyond that (after all, that takes longer to
get the camera started up if it does that). Then you took 5251, and the
next shot (5252) it discovered was already present in that folder, so it
created a new folder and put the remaining images from that session
there. This prevents overwriting of existing image files, though it
does confuse the image-numbering sequence somewhat.
I've not encountered this, yet, with my D70, in part because
I've been using 1GB CF cards, and an image size which will not get as
many as 999 images on the whole card, let alone in a single folder.
However, I've added a 4GB CF card to my collection, and depending on the
image size, I can get well over 1000 images to a single CF card. (I had
been shooting with Medium/Fine settings, and going to RAW only for
special cases. On the 4GB card, that will get over 2K images.
Large/Fine gets over 1.1K, and only full-time RAW will get be below 1000
images about 716).
I used to have a script (unix system) which downloaded the
contents of the DCIM/100NCD70 folder (yes, I know that on Windows, it
would be seen as DCIM\100NCD70).
Now, since that risks not downloading everything from the card,
my script uses tar to copy the entire tree of directories and their
contents into the unix system, so I don't have to worry about any
accidental duplication of filenames resulting in something lost.
And, as soon as the download (and duplication to a second hard
disk) is complete and verified, I put the CF card back into the camera
and format it to start over.
I also reset the image number back to 0001 at the beginning of
each year.
If the image number goes past 9999 in a shooting session, it
will (of course) create a new folder to make sure that things do not get
overwritten. If I need to combine them back to maintain a proper
sequence later, I can rename the later ones from DSC_???? to DSC1????
and on as needed.
> I popped the card back in the camera and formatted it to see what
> would be the next number and it's 5253.
I presume that you first safely copied the duplicated filenames
to separate directories -- or renamed them first? I have this image of
the files being lost when you reformatted the card.
I do sometimes delete obviously bad images from the card, if
there is a question of room, but I tend to keep the card in the camera
until I am out of room or have another reason to change CF cards. I
suspect that your problem occurred when you re-inserted the card after
deleting some files via an external computer. (It may be that the camera
keeps some information on the card to keep it from duplicating numbers,
and this was corrupted by the computer downloading the files.) I've got
things set up so my cards mount read-only (again, a unix system), so I
*can't* corrupt the filesystem -- and this forces me to always use the
camera itself to format the cards. (Besides, on a unix system, I have
too many options for how to format a card -- not just the FAT
filesystems which the cameras use. :-)
> The only thing that I did during the shoot was change the battery, but
> it was long after the original 5251 and 5252 were taken.
That should not be the cause of the problem -- but if you did
delete images from the CF card in an external computer, and then
re-install it in the camera, *that* might have triggered the problem as
I described above.
As I mentioned above, I *do* delete images from the CF card
before I am done with it -- but I do so using the camera, and I've never
had the camera loop back to re-use some deleted numbers.
I hope that this helps,
DoN.

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Joan - 02 Jun 2006 10:01 GMT
Nothing there explains the cause. Photos 5243 to 5308 were in folder
100 along with a few from the day before.
From folder 100
5243 was taken at 4:30PM
... more at short intervals and then
5251 was taken at 4:41PM
5252 was taken at 4:41PM
... more at short intervals and then the last one
5308 was taken at 5:00PM
In folder 101
5251 taken at 5:03PM
5252 taken at 5:03PM
The card didn't come out of the camera in that time and no photos were
deleted. I have them all on the PC. It was sunset and I took lots of
shots, a sequence of 11 of them are on Flickr, but the exif is
removed.
After that, as I said, I formatted the card and took another photo and
it's 5253. So it looks like the numbers up to 5308 will be re-used.

Signature
Joan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly
: According to Joan <Joan@home.tosh>:
: > Up until now I haven't had enough files on a card to cause the camera
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
: I hope that this helps,
: DoN.
Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 02 Jun 2006 10:13 GMT
>Nothing there explains the cause. Photos 5243 to 5308 were in folder
>100 along with a few from the day before.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>After that, as I said, I formatted the card and took another photo and
>it's 5253. So it looks like the numbers up to 5308 will be re-used.
I haven ever experienced anything like this with my CP990/CP5700/D70/D200
all using the same numbering system. Time to call Nikon Tech support, imo.
--
Ed Ruf (Usenet2@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
Joan - 02 Jun 2006 11:04 GMT
Maybe it is, Ed. Certainly it never happened on the CP5700 which
frequently used multiple folders on the card.
I think I'll just not format the card for a while and see what it does
next time it wants another folder. I might even switch back to just
JPG so that more photos will fit on the card.

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Joan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly
"Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!)" <egruf_usenet2@cox.net> wrote in
message news:3600829h86o2t03tcvuh1il8sgjcqpgvr6@4ax.com...
:
: >Nothing there explains the cause. Photos 5243 to 5308 were in folder
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
: --
: Ed Ruf (Usenet2@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
> Up until now I haven't had enough files on a card to cause the camera
> to create a second folder. Today I didn't clear the card after
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> The only thing that I did during the shoot was change the battery, but
> it was long after the original 5251 and 5252 were taken.
Simple fix
Set the camera to consecutive file numbering instead of having it start
from scratch each time you format the card. This also helps you ID how
many clicks the shutter has done so you can replace the camera before
reaching the shutter life expectancy... 60,000 for most consumer DSLRs.
The rate some people around here take pictures that'll equate to end of
life in about 3000 AD. Except for Anika1980 - AKA Bret Douglas. He
reaches that count every second lunch time.!
Joan - 02 Jun 2006 11:43 GMT
How do you think the file numbers got to over 5000? I've had the
camera since October 2005 and I shoot mostly raw+jpg.

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Joan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly
: Simple fix
: Set the camera to consecutive file numbering instead of having it start
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: life in about 3000 AD. Except for Anika1980 - AKA Bret Douglas. He
: reaches that count every second lunch time.!
Dmac - 02 Jun 2006 13:15 GMT
> How do you think the file numbers got to over 5000? I've had the
> camera since October 2005 and I shoot mostly raw+jpg.
I've no idea, Joan. Perhaps you took some photos with it? But hey, With
your attitude you don't need my help, eh?
The simple fact is this...
You are creating duplicate file numbers. Why do you suppose that is
happening if you truly do have the camera using sequential numbering?
Rocket science, perhaps?
I think you've been working with database software so long you can't see
the forest for the trees getting in the way. Or... Perhaps you are doing
something differently to everyone else who doesn't have this problem
...like erasing the cards or even formatting them in the PC instead of
the camera?
Far be it from me know anything you don't. You haven't changed in 5
years, have you? Still got the attitude for bra cups.
Douglas
Pete D - 02 Jun 2006 23:32 GMT
>> How do you think the file numbers got to over 5000? I've had the camera
>> since October 2005 and I shoot mostly raw+jpg.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Douglas
Switch your brain on Doug, you are looking like a stupid idiot saying things
like that.
Joan - 03 Jun 2006 02:00 GMT
There's your problem right there.

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Joan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly
: I've no idea, Joan.
DoN. Nichols - 03 Jun 2006 00:10 GMT
According to Dmac <Dmac@this.group>:
[ ... ]
> Simple fix
> Set the camera to consecutive file numbering instead of having it start
> from scratch each time you format the card. This also helps you ID how
> many clicks the shutter has done so you can replace the camera before
> reaching the shutter life expectancy... 60,000 for most consumer DSLRs.
Well ... On a Nikon, understand that the image number resets to
1 every time it hits 9999, so you will have to keep count of up to six
rollovers.
And -- if you use something like "exiftool" (or whatever tool
you can find for your OS) to look at *all* of the information buried in
each image file, one of the items is:
======================================================================
Shutter Count : 7502
======================================================================
so -- you don't really need to do that with the image filenames.
However, I also keep the image count set to consecutive, and
only manually reset when the year rolls over.
All in all -- a *lot* better than the NC2000e/c (A Nikon N90s
converted to digital by Kodak for the AP), which set the lowest three
digits of the filename from the two-digit frame number in the film which
the camera still thought that it was using, and would start on a new
PCMCIA disk drive with the upper digits all set to zero. (Note that it
incremented by tens to keep the intermediate filenames available for the
.wav voice annotation files.) So, an image number might start on a
fresh drive at 0350, count up through 0990, and then roll over to 0000,
and count up to 0340 before incrementing the next digit to 9000. This
made filenames a rather awkward thing to use for sequencing images. You
had to pull the date/time information from the exif data and use that to
rename the files if you needed them in proper sequence. There was no
practical way to reset the camera's own frame counter to zero. Even
rewinding the "film" didn't seem to do it. All that did was to run the
batteries down a bit faster. :-)
> The rate some people around here take pictures that'll equate to end of
> life in about 3000 AD. Except for Anika1980 - AKA Bret Douglas. He
> reaches that count every second lunch time.!
I wonder how high the "Shutter count: " in the D70 can go before
it overflows? And -- has anyone actually read a projected shutter life
for the D70? Since the higher speeds are done electronically, it might
well be that it will last longer than a shutter which depends on
mechanical features for timing at *all* speeds. The D70 can run at a
fairly leisurely mechanical shutter speed, so it may well have a longer
life. (I suspect the same to be true of the D70s, the D50, and the D200
at least. Probably the D2x and others which were produced after the D70
came into being. I'm not sure whether they used the same technique for
the D100 and earlier cameras.
Enjoy,
DoN.

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