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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / June 2006

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Q: Why do DSLRs need mirrors and prisms?

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Alexander Arnakis - 24 May 2006 00:45 GMT
Maybe this question has been discussed here before, but I'll ask
again:

Other than being a holdover from the film SLR design, what is the
reason that DSLRs still have mirror boxes and pentaprisms? It seems
that the main thing a mirror (on a DSLR) does is block the sensor so
that the LCD screen can't be used for composing.

It would seem a no-brainer to eliminate the mirror and pentaprism
setup, thereby allowing the sensor and LCD to be used for composing
(like on a point-and-shoot). If an eye-level viewfinder is necessary,
then a second electronic display can be incorporated, like on a video
camera.

It would seem that the main reason to have a DSLR is to enable the use
of high-quality interchangeable lenses. Having interior mechanics that
emulate film SLRs is irrelevant.
Jeremy Nixon - 24 May 2006 00:49 GMT
> It would seem a no-brainer to eliminate the mirror and pentaprism
> setup, thereby allowing the sensor and LCD to be used for composing
> (like on a point-and-shoot). If an eye-level viewfinder is necessary,
> then a second electronic display can be incorporated, like on a video
> camera.

This would be an enormous step backwards in usability.  Why would you want
to be stuck with an LCD when you can have a decent optical viewfinder?

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Alexander Arnakis - 24 May 2006 01:05 GMT
>> It would seem a no-brainer to eliminate the mirror and pentaprism
>> setup, thereby allowing the sensor and LCD to be used for composing
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>This would be an enormous step backwards in usability.  Why would you want
>to be stuck with an LCD when you can have a decent optical viewfinder?

Thanks for the reply. I would *like* to have a decent optical
viewfinder, but the one on my Nikon D70 isn't what I would call
"decent" (at least as compared to the viewfinder on my FM2). The D70
viewfinder is dim, and doesn't have any aids for manual focusing. I
think, all in all, that the LCD screen on the back would be more
useful for composing (if only the design allowed for that).
Måns Rullgård - 24 May 2006 01:30 GMT
>>> It would seem a no-brainer to eliminate the mirror and pentaprism
>>> setup, thereby allowing the sensor and LCD to be used for composing
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> "decent" (at least as compared to the viewfinder on my FM2). The D70
> viewfinder is dim, and doesn't have any aids for manual focusing. I

Check if http://katzeyeoptics.com/ has anything that might be an
improvement for you.

> think, all in all, that the LCD screen on the back would be more
> useful for composing (if only the design allowed for that).

The resolution of the LCD is hardly enough for focusing.

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mru@inprovide.com

Alexander Arnakis - 24 May 2006 05:16 GMT
On Wed, 24 May 2006 01:30:33 +0100, M?ns Rullg?rd <mru@inprovide.com>
wrote:

>Check if http://katzeyeoptics.com/ has anything that might be an
>improvement for you.

Thanks for the reference. I wasn't aware that such an aftermarket
screen existed.
Sharp - 24 May 2006 05:25 GMT
>On Wed, 24 May 2006 01:30:33 +0100, M?ns Rullg?rd <mru@inprovide.com>
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Thanks for the reference. I wasn't aware that such an aftermarket
>screen existed.

There's another aspect of using the reflex viewfinder that someone
touched on. Holding the camera out away from the face and composing on
the LCD, the way most point & shoot users seem to do is asking for
camera shake. By holding the camera braced against your face and
composing using the internal viewfinder, you can get a much steadier
hold and get by with a slower shutter setting.
Michael Johnson, PE - 24 May 2006 06:11 GMT
>> On Wed, 24 May 2006 01:30:33 +0100, M?ns Rullg?rd <mru@inprovide.com>
>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> composing using the internal viewfinder, you can get a much steadier
> hold and get by with a slower shutter setting.

This may be a dumb question but could it be possible to have both?  With
the mirror lockup available on many DSLRs could it be used to allow the
sensor to get a continuous light feed and then send the image to the
LCD?  You just wouldn't have both, the view finder and the preview at
the same time.  I remember reading somewhere that CMOS type sensors get
hot when run continuously so maybe that is a problem.  I'm sure I am
missing something or it would have been done by now.
Jeremy Nixon - 24 May 2006 06:33 GMT
> This may be a dumb question but could it be possible to have both?  With
> the mirror lockup available on many DSLRs could it be used to allow the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> hot when run continuously so maybe that is a problem.  I'm sure I am
> missing something or it would have been done by now.

Mirror locked and shutter open or not, the sensors don't have the
capability of providing a live video feed -- and making them able to
do it compromises image quality, whether the feature is actually being
used or not.

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Michael Johnson, PE - 24 May 2006 07:25 GMT
>> This may be a dumb question but could it be possible to have both?  With
>> the mirror lockup available on many DSLRs could it be used to allow the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> do it compromises image quality, whether the feature is actually being
> used or not.

The only time I have wished for live preview is when I'm behind a crowd
and having to hold the camera above my head to get the shot.  I wouldn't
need a continuous view just long enough to let the camera focus and set
exposure.  Maybe 10-15 seconds max.  Since DSLRs can take long exposure
shots it looks like their sensors could handle a brief exposure period
for live preview but then I'm not designing DSLRs for a living either
and am far from an expert on their capabilities.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 24 May 2006 14:41 GMT
>>This may be a dumb question but could it be possible to have both?  With
>>the mirror lockup available on many DSLRs could it be used to allow the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> do it compromises image quality, whether the feature is actually being
> used or not.

And even if that capability were developed, the lag for readout,
to slow refresh display of the LCD would totally disable
the camera for rapid action photography, as in sports and
wildlife.  The optical viewfinder gives a true real time display
that is only limited by the speed of light.

Roger
Peter - 25 May 2006 07:52 GMT
> Mirror locked and shutter open or not, the sensors don't have the
> capability of providing a live video feed -- and making them able to
> do it compromises image quality, whether the feature is actually being
> used or not.

This is only partially true for CMOS (rolling shutter can be implemented but
image quality won't be great). Any dSLR using CCD sensor is techically very
capable of providing live video feed.

Peter
JB - 25 May 2006 10:27 GMT
>> Mirror locked and shutter open or not, the sensors don't have the
>> capability of providing a live video feed -- and making them able to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>image quality won't be great). Any dSLR using CCD sensor is techically very
>capable of providing live video feed.

Not true.  A full-frame-transfer CCD sensor, as used in most DSLRs, is
not capable of providing a live video feed.  For a live video feed you
need an interline transfer sensor.

/JB
David Dyer-Bennet - 25 May 2006 20:38 GMT
> > Mirror locked and shutter open or not, the sensors don't have the
> > capability of providing a live video feed -- and making them able to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> image quality won't be great). Any dSLR using CCD sensor is techically very
> capable of providing live video feed.

Nope, the circuitry isn't on the CCD sensors they use for the DSLRs,
so it's not technically capable.
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David Littlewood - 26 May 2006 00:52 GMT
>> This may be a dumb question but could it be possible to have both?  With
>> the mirror lockup available on many DSLRs could it be used to allow the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>do it compromises image quality, whether the feature is actually being
>used or not.

The EOS 20Da (now discontinued) did exactly that. It was however
optimised for astrophotography, and the direct screen view was stated by
Canon to be unsuitable for use at normal illumination levels. This may
be for the reason Michael mentioned.

If they did produce one capable of working at higher light levels I
would be tempted, as focusing a DSLR in photomicrography is a pain.
However, as someone else said, the resolution of the LCD screen is
inadequate. For fixed use such as PM, connecting to a monitor would be
OK, but for everyday use it would hardly do.

For normal photography the idea of using an LCD screen for composing
would be a hugely retrograde step for all the reasons mentioned. The
only camera I have with no optical viewfinder (a Contax i4R) shows by
far the worst camera shake of any camera I have when used in any but
bright daylight. This is partly because it is so small and light, partly
because it has a truly awful shutter release button, but the biggest
factor is I suspect the fact that you have to hold it at arm's length.

David
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Clemens Dorda - 24 May 2006 09:03 GMT
Michael Johnson, PE schrieb:
> This may be a dumb question but could it be possible to have both?  With
> the mirror lockup available on many DSLRs could it be used to allow the
> sensor to get a continuous light feed and then send the image to the
> LCD?  

This is was Olympus made with the new E-330 (see
http://www.olympus-esystem.com/dea/products/e330/feature/index.html#a1).
Mode B locks the mirror, so that the image on the LCD is exactly what
the main sensor gets from the lens.

> You just wouldn't have both, the view finder and the preview at
> the same time.  I remember reading somewhere that CMOS type sensors get
> hot when run continuously so maybe that is a problem.  

Yes, this is one problem, and the reason why Olympus developed a new
sensor together with Panasonic (NMOS techology). Second problem is the
frame rate of common sensors for DSLRs, which is too slow. The NMOS
sensor from Olympus/Panasonic is able to produce a sufficient frame rate.

Clemens
Clemens Dorda - 24 May 2006 09:09 GMT
Clemens Dorda schrieb:
> This is was Olympus made with the new E-330 (see
> http://www.olympus-esystem.com/dea/products/e330/feature/index.html#a1).
> Mode B locks the mirror, so that the image on the LCD is exactly what
> the main sensor gets from the lens.

Here is another (better) illustration of mode B:
http://www.olympus-europa.com/consumer/dslr_12806.htm

Clemens
Paul Furman - 24 May 2006 17:25 GMT
> Clemens Dorda schrieb:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Here is another (better) illustration of mode B:
> http://www.olympus-europa.com/consumer/dslr_12806.htm

The problem is the "half transmissive mirror" which makes the optical
viewfinder darker. Neat idea though.

"Full Time Live Preview utilises a second image sensor mounted in the
viewfinder’s optical path to transfer the image to the 2.5”/6.4cm
multi-angle LCD. Because this CCD is placed after a half transmissive
mirror, then the view via the optical view finder is also available. So,
depending of on the shooting environment, the photographer can choose
which viewing option to use. Because the side swinging mirror will stay
in the usual position full AF functionality is available."
Randall Ainsworth - 24 May 2006 13:15 GMT
> This may be a dumb question but could it be possible to have both?  With
> the mirror lockup available on many DSLRs could it be used to allow the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> hot when run continuously so maybe that is a problem.  I'm sure I am
> missing something or it would have been done by now.

Yes, it *is* a dumb question.
Michael Johnson, PE - 24 May 2006 16:34 GMT
>> This may be a dumb question but could it be possible to have both?  With
>> the mirror lockup available on many DSLRs could it be used to allow the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Yes, it *is* a dumb question.

...and you, apparently, are a *dumbass*.
Randall Ainsworth - 25 May 2006 02:26 GMT
> ...and you, apparently, are a *dumbass*.

It's a stupid question every time it's posted.
Michael Johnson, PE - 25 May 2006 02:30 GMT
>> ...and you, apparently, are a *dumbass*.
>
> It's a stupid question every time it's posted.

Why is a stupid question?
David Dyer-Bennet - 24 May 2006 19:34 GMT
> There's another aspect of using the reflex viewfinder that someone
> touched on. Holding the camera out away from the face and composing
> on the LCD, the way most point & shoot users seem to do is asking
> for camera shake. By holding the camera braced against your face and
> composing using the internal viewfinder, you can get a much steadier
> hold and get by with a slower shutter setting.

It's true that doing it "the way  most point & shoot users seem to do"
doesn't work very well.

However, you can actually hold the camera much *more* stably out in
front of you than you can up to your face.  Trouble is, with a DSLR
(or film SLR) you can't see through the viewfinder then.  With a P&S
you can, and for a P&S it's a better approach when stability is at
issue.  

Detail explanation in a previous message this week.  If you're using a
P&S hand-held in low light, you really need to try this.  If you've
got a digital camera it's easy to check -- take a dozen pictures each
way at each of a series of gradually decreasing shutter speeds, and
see which way gets you sharper pictures.  (Of course practice with
either technique will improve your results!)  (Okay, you can perform
the same test on film, it's just slower and more expensive.)
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David Dyer-Bennet - 24 May 2006 19:25 GMT
> The resolution of the LCD is hardly enough for focusing.

I haven't focused by perceived sharpness on the viewing screen since
1994, when I got my N90.  These cameras don't have focus aids on their
screens, you're better off using the AF sensor in the camera (even if
you're turning the focus ring by hand).

(Hmm; I guess I must have focused by eye, though, when using other
cameras, FM2, F, Fuji GS 645, 4x5.  But not with the AF 35mm cameras.)
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Paul Furman - 24 May 2006 01:32 GMT
>>>It would seem a no-brainer to eliminate the mirror and pentaprism
>>>setup, thereby allowing the sensor and LCD to be used for composing
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> think, all in all, that the LCD screen on the back would be more
> useful for composing (if only the design allowed for that).

The D70 viewfinder is indeed rather dim and small. Supposedly better
than a Rebel XT or D50 though. I'm very impressed with the upgrade to a
D200 from a D70, I can actually focus and evaluate DOF now. It's great!

I used to have a (used, budget) Canon AE1 SLR back in college and one
day a tourist asked me to take his pic with his camera: wow! I don't
know what it was but I remember being amazed at the big bright sharp
viewfinder in that thing! It seemed like a 35mm SLR to me at the time
but I don't know, maybe medium format? A world of diference!

I did use a P&S digicam from 2000-2004 and learned to enjoy live preview
though there are technical compromises (described in other replies). No
doubt though that today's DSLR viewfinders are .66% the size of the old
film SLRs.
Toby - 24 May 2006 02:38 GMT
>>> It would seem a no-brainer to eliminate the mirror and pentaprism
>>> setup, thereby allowing the sensor and LCD to be used for composing
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> think, all in all, that the LCD screen on the back would be more
> useful for composing (if only the design allowed for that).

Have a look throught a D2X. In any case, there is no way that an LCD screen
has the resolution to even come close to an optical viewfinder. All
professional video cameras, for instance, come with black and white CRT
viewfinders, because critical focusing is impossible with an LCD screen, or
even a color CRT for that matter.

Toby
Darrell Larose - 24 May 2006 04:40 GMT
>>>> It would seem a no-brainer to eliminate the mirror and pentaprism
>>>> setup, thereby allowing the sensor and LCD to be used for composing
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> viewfinders, because critical focusing is impossible with an LCD screen,
> or even a color CRT for that matter.

The first thing that impressed me with the Canon 5D was the viewfinderm was
like using an EOS 3 or EOS 1 SLR... My Pentax *ist D has a nice glass
pentaprism which (to my eyes) is one of the best viewfinders in the APS-C
class dSLR. Mind you I have several fast primes, so my 50mm f:1.4 or 85mm
f:2 are far brighter than the AF-S 18~70/3.5-4.5, my slowest lens is my M*
300mm f:4

Darrell Larose
http://DarrellLarose.ca
Merritt Mullen - 24 May 2006 04:06 GMT
> >> It would seem a no-brainer to eliminate the mirror and pentaprism
> >> setup, thereby allowing the sensor and LCD to be used for composing
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> think, all in all, that the LCD screen on the back would be more
> useful for composing (if only the design allowed for that).

Besides an optical viewfinder being far superior for composing, using an
LCD on the back of the camera means you must hold the camera some distance
in front of you (and wear your reading classes if you are an old fart like
me).  Holding the camera at arms length is easy for a small
point-and-shoot, but would quickly grow tiresome with a camera as heavy as
a D70.

I do wish there were an optical manual focusing aid in the D70 viewfinder,
however.

Merritt
Jeremy Nixon - 24 May 2006 06:37 GMT
> Thanks for the reply. I would *like* to have a decent optical
> viewfinder, but the one on my Nikon D70 isn't what I would call
> "decent" (at least as compared to the viewfinder on my FM2).

I had a D70 (until I upgraded to a D2x) and while the viewfinder is pretty
small, I found it to be far better than any LCD could be on its best day.

> The D70 viewfinder is dim, and doesn't have any aids for manual focusing.
> I think, all in all, that the LCD screen on the back would be more
> useful for composing (if only the design allowed for that).

Even if it were, which I don't agree with, it would definitely be far less
useful for focusing even than the small D70 viewfinder.

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tomm42 - 24 May 2006 15:20 GMT
You're right the D70 has a lousy all mirror viewfinder. I believe the
less expensive Pentax DSLRs have a prism, hense a brighter viewfinder.
Nikon's D200 is a world above the D70 viewfindewise. But your assertion
that you can focius using the LCD is also false, like most EVFs it just
isn't good enough. Both the designs, mirror viewfinder, and EVF are
designed to work with autofocus lenses. Holding a P&S digital camera at
arms length to use the LCD is one thing holding a DSLR at arms length
would certainly result in shaky pictures. As long as they design
viewfinders assuming autofocus this question will keep coming up. I
have a D200, the viewfinder is way better than a D70, but the screen in
the viewfinder makes focusing wideangles problematic, but there are
third party screens to use.

Tom
Paul Furman - 24 May 2006 17:34 GMT
> You're right the D70 has a lousy all mirror viewfinder. I believe the
> less expensive Pentax DSLRs have a prism, hense a brighter viewfinder.
> Nikon's D200 is a world above the D70 viewfindewise. But your assertion
> that you can focius using the LCD is also false,

What I did for macros on my old P&S digital was to swing the camera in &
out with manual focus locked to find the optimal focus. I used a similar
technique with the focus ring on the D70. Also newer EVF cams can zoom
in for focusing so it's not an insurmountable problem.

> like most EVFs it just
> isn't good enough. Both the designs, mirror viewfinder, and EVF are
> designed to work with autofocus lenses.

Yep. AF works good. It's something I'm beginning to outgrow for certain
situations though.

> Holding a P&S digital camera at
> arms length to use the LCD is one thing holding a DSLR at arms length
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the viewfinder makes focusing wideangles problematic, but there are
> third party screens to use.

Is there one for the D200 yet? The katseye (sp?) is also supposed to
increase brightness but I wonder if there is any benefit on the
excellent D200 viewfinder.
John Falstaff - 24 May 2006 17:09 GMT
>>> It would seem a no-brainer to eliminate the mirror and pentaprism
>>> setup, thereby allowing the sensor and LCD to be used for composing
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> viewfinder, but the one on my Nikon D70 isn't what I would call
> "decent" (at least as compared to the viewfinder on my FM2).

Well, it's a smaller image of course. My D70s and Maxxum 5D are the same
way, so I just assume it's something that goes with dSLRs having the
APS-size sensor.

> The D70
> viewfinder is dim,

Neither my D70s nor Maxxum 5D viewfinders seem at all dim to me.

> and doesn't have any aids for manual focusing.

They pretty much went out when autofocusing SLRs came in. In a few cases
interchangeable screens were offered, a few of which may have had focusing
aids though I don't actually remember any.

> I
> think, all in all, that the LCD screen on the back would be more
> useful for composing (if only the design allowed for that).

Well, even the best of the LCD screens I've seen are relatively coarse and
wouldn't be of much use for focusing. I doubt that they could even use
focusing aids of any kind; I believe split-image and microprism focusing
aids that you're used to in manual-focusing SLRs *require* the reflex system
that you're objecting to. And having the LCD monitor only would make it
impossible to use the camera at eye level -- a major disadvantage to LCD
monitors as far as I'm concerned.
David Dyer-Bennet - 24 May 2006 19:23 GMT
> > It would seem a no-brainer to eliminate the mirror and pentaprism
> > setup, thereby allowing the sensor and LCD to be used for composing
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> This would be an enormous step backwards in usability.  Why would you want
> to be stuck with an LCD when you can have a decent optical viewfinder?

Personal preference.  For me an LCD is considerably better in nearly
all situations.  I can see it clearly in the dark, I can see it
without putting my eye right up to the camera (and a tilt/swivel LCD
setup would make that even more valuable), I can zoom in to see
details more clearly than possible in an optical viewfinder.

And giving up the weight, cost, noise, and vibration of the mirror and
pentaprism would be a big win also.  At least part of the reason I can
hand-hold the P&S cameras at much lower shutter speeds than an SLR is
that they don't make much vibration on their own.

Bright sunshine is the exception condition; but today's LCDs are a lot
better than 2000's were.  If you did most of your work outside in the
sun I could see this being a deciding factor.  I do a very tiny
proportion of my work there.  

Critical focusing by eye is probably hard on the LCD.  I use the focus
sensor in my camera rather than trying to focus by eye on a screen not
meant for it.  I put the sensor spot over the key detail, trigger AF,
compose, and shoot.  If you need to read the focus by eye before
shooting, LCD would be a problem.
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Jeremy Nixon - 25 May 2006 00:40 GMT
> Personal preference.

I guess that's valid. :)

> I can see it clearly in the dark,

The dark is actually what finally motivated me to shut off auto-review.
The LCD is glaringly bright and annoying in the dark, not to mention that
it attracts attention.  I shoot in some pretty darned low-light situations,
but I've never once shot in one that was too dark for the optical viewfinder,
even when there isn't enough light for autofocus.

> I can see it without putting my eye right up to the camera (and a
> tilt/swivel LCD setup would make that even more valuable),

That's one thing I'd like about it.  Shooting from the hip would be more
practical.  But honestly, if I'm shooting from the hip, the last thing I
actually want is a glaringly bright LCD to give me away, so I'd actually
rather have an optical waist-level finder, which are nothing new but don't
seem to exist at all for digital SLRs.  Then there are the old Leica ones,
which for some obscene reason are valuable to "collectors" and go for
hundreds of dollars; they fit on the flash shoe.  I'd prefer that to an
LCD.

If I were more mechanically inclined, I'd buy a pentaprism and fashion
something to fit it onto a shoe mount, and etch lines onto it to indicate
framing for my usual focal lengths.  That would beat an LCD any day.  But
I'm not mechanically inclined.  I'd just end up cutting off my finger or
something. :)

Or, of course, you could get one of those Zigview things, which gives you
an LCD without any of the tradeoffs of having one built into the camera.

> I can zoom in to see details more clearly than possible in an optical
> viewfinder.

I sometimes wish for a quick "center magnification" button on the optical
finder, for focusing.

> And giving up the weight, cost, noise, and vibration of the mirror and
> pentaprism would be a big win also.  At least part of the reason I can
> hand-hold the P&S cameras at much lower shutter speeds than an SLR is
> that they don't make much vibration on their own.

Odd.  My experience is entirely, and profoundly, opposite to that.  I need
at least 2-3 stops faster shutter speed to hand-hold a P&S held out in
front of my face.

> Critical focusing by eye is probably hard on the LCD.  I use the focus
> sensor in my camera rather than trying to focus by eye on a screen not
> meant for it.

Me too, except when the AF sensors don't work, which (that "dark" thing)
is pretty common.  You get the little flashing arrows and it refuses to
lock onto anything at all, and then you're screwed.  Though Katz Eye
*finally* has D2x focusing screens available, and I am (im-)patiently
awaiting my delivery.  Having a real focusing screen will be *way* better
than that stupid green light.

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John Falstaff - 25 May 2006 04:57 GMT
[ . . . ]

>> And giving up the weight, cost, noise, and vibration of the mirror and
>> pentaprism would be a big win also.  At least part of the reason I can
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> at least 2-3 stops faster shutter speed to hand-hold a P&S held out in
> front of my face.

I don't know what the difference is (if any) in stops, but I agree with you
in principle. Holding any camera out in front of your face is inherently
less steady than having it braced against your cheek and brow, and within
reasonable limits the heavier the better. That's why target pistols are made
so heavy -- it's virtually impossible to hold a light pistol really steady.
David Dyer-Bennet - 25 May 2006 05:34 GMT
> > Personal preference.
>
> I guess that's valid. :)

I think we gotta allow it; otherwise we'd have to agree on the
official rating criteria up front!

> > I can see it clearly in the dark,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> but I've never once shot in one that was too dark for the optical viewfinder,
> even when there isn't enough light for autofocus.

The backlight level is adjustable.  I've shot in situations where I
could *just barely* see enough to focus and frame -- in an M3
viewfinder, so that's *really* dark.  I haven't, of course, shot in
situations where there actually wasn't enough light to shoot -- at
least, not successfully.

> > I can see it without putting my eye right up to the camera (and a
> > tilt/swivel LCD setup would make that even more valuable),
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> reason are valuable to "collectors" and go for hundreds of dollars;
> they fit on the flash shoe.  I'd prefer that to an LCD.

Note that even the Nikon F6 doesn't have interchangeable prisms.  It
just seems to have gone out of style.  

Probably because most people really needing that are using digital P&S
with tilt/swivel LCDs.

> If I were more mechanically inclined, I'd buy a pentaprism and fashion
> something to fit it onto a shoe mount, and etch lines onto it to indicate
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Or, of course, you could get one of those Zigview things, which gives you
> an LCD without any of the tradeoffs of having one built into the camera.

I'm tempted.  

> > I can zoom in to see details more clearly than possible in an optical
> > viewfinder.
>
> I sometimes wish for a quick "center magnification" button on the optical
> finder, for focusing.

I had it on my Mamiya 124G (TLR); that flip-up magnifier.

> > And giving up the weight, cost, noise, and vibration of the mirror and
> > pentaprism would be a big win also.  At least part of the reason I can
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> at least 2-3 stops faster shutter speed to hand-hold a P&S held out in
> front of my face.

Put the strap around your neck.  Pull your elbows into your tummy.
Grasp the sides of the camera firmly.  Push out against the strap
until it becomes tight.  You now have nice triangular brace structures
when viewed from above and from the side.  This is *much* more stable
than trying to hug a camera up to your face, according to my tests.

Certainly most people waving a P&S out in front of their face aren't
doing this, and they aren't getting good results at low shutter
speeds.  No argument!

However, anybody who *wants* to get good results hand-held at low
shutter speeds should try this technique if they have a camera it
applies to.  I find it works a LOT better.  Of course comparing a P&S
to an SLR isn't fair exactly, because the SLR has a lot of built-in
vibration, so the P&S has an unfair advantage.

It's easy to test, take a bunch of pictures each way under otherwise
similar conditions, at a range of shutter speeds, and see how it comes
out.  Of course practice, in either technique, helps a lot.

> > Critical focusing by eye is probably hard on the LCD.  I use the focus
> > sensor in my camera rather than trying to focus by eye on a screen not
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> awaiting my delivery.  Having a real focusing screen will be *way* better
> than that stupid green light.

In real dark I'm mostly using manual focus lenses (my ultra-fasts are
all MF); I find I can get the confirmation dot to light in amazingly
dim conditions.
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Jeremy Nixon - 25 May 2006 06:05 GMT
>> I sometimes wish for a quick "center magnification" button on the optical
>> finder, for focusing.
>
> I had it on my Mamiya 124G (TLR); that flip-up magnifier.

I'm thinking of a button I could push, with the camera to my eye, that
would instantly switch in 3x magnification or so.  Bonus points if it
magnifies the current focus point.  Then it pops back to normal as soon
as I release it.  I don't even know if such a thing is physically possible.

> Put the strap around your neck.  Pull your elbows into your tummy.
> Grasp the sides of the camera firmly.  Push out against the strap
> until it becomes tight.  You now have nice triangular brace structures
> when viewed from above and from the side.  This is *much* more stable
> than trying to hug a camera up to your face, according to my tests.

Yeah, I can see that.  Basically the same thing you're doing by holding
the camera against your face.  It seems less stable, but that could just
be a matter of not being used to it.  Try it with an SLR with a 70-200
f/2.8 mounted, though -- I just did, and it's not going to work. :)

What I do note about the position, though, is that it's terribly awkward.
But, my strap is longer than most people use -- long enough to go around
my neck, over my shoulder, under my right arm, and still have the camera
hanging at waist level.  I haven't found a single purpose-made camera strap
that is long enough for my preference, which tells me that I'm in a minority
here.  57 inches of slack, from clasp to clasp, as I measure it.

> In real dark I'm mostly using manual focus lenses (my ultra-fasts are
> all MF); I find I can get the confirmation dot to light in amazingly
> dim conditions.

It fails me sometimes at night with a 50mm f/1.2, which is as fast as it
gets with Nikon lenses.  Often you can find something with more contrast
to point it at, if there's time.  In any case, it's a good bit slower to
focus from the light than with a split image or similar.  I'm quite looking
forward to that new focusing screen.

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bjw@mambo.ucolick.org - 25 May 2006 07:30 GMT
> >> I sometimes wish for a quick "center magnification" button on the optical
> >> finder, for focusing.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> magnifies the current focus point.  Then it pops back to normal as soon
> as I release it.  I don't even know if such a thing is physically possible.

Very difficult with an optical VF, less so with an EVF.
There is this though:

<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=3
7321&is=USA
>

Nikon DG-2 plus the appropriate eyepiece adapter.
It's out of stock but somebody must have one.
David Dyer-Bennet - 25 May 2006 20:37 GMT
> >> I sometimes wish for a quick "center magnification" button on the optical
> >> finder, for focusing.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> normal as soon as I release it.  I don't even know if such a thing
> is physically possible.

The D200 does that; just push the center button on the 5-way and it
jumps in.

The Mamiya magnifier needed a different eye position than I used for
viewing the whole screen, but it popped up very quickly.  And back
down quickly, too.

> > Put the strap around your neck.  Pull your elbows into your tummy.
> > Grasp the sides of the camera firmly.  Push out against the strap
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> be a matter of not being used to it.  Try it with an SLR with a 70-200
> f/2.8 mounted, though -- I just did, and it's not going to work. :)

I usually need a hand under the lens for something like that, is that
the issue?  Since I can't compose on the LCD on my DSLR, I haven't
been using this technique much with the DSLR.  

> What I do note about the position, though, is that it's terribly
> awkward.  But, my strap is longer than most people use -- long
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> preference, which tells me that I'm in a minority here.  57 inches
> of slack, from clasp to clasp, as I measure it.

Yep, that's longer than I use.  My normal strap puts the back of the
camera definitely above my navel.  I even thought of putting "adjust
strap length" somewhere in the instructions; it definitely needs the
strap in a particular length range.

> > In real dark I'm mostly using manual focus lenses (my ultra-fasts are
> > all MF); I find I can get the confirmation dot to light in amazingly
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> focus from the light than with a split image or similar.  I'm quite looking
> forward to that new focusing screen.

In real night, I'm often scale-focusing.  My fastest is also an f/1.2
Nikon -- slightly bigger than yours though since the focal length is
58mm rather than 50mm.  
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Jeremy Nixon - 25 May 2006 20:47 GMT
> The D200 does that; just push the center button on the 5-way and it
> jumps in.

I meant in the optical viewfinder.

> I usually need a hand under the lens for something like that, is that
> the issue?  Since I can't compose on the LCD on my DSLR, I haven't
> been using this technique much with the DSLR.  

I think it's just held too far out from the body's center of gravity.
It felt pretty unstable.  With a shorter lens, it was okay.

> In real night, I'm often scale-focusing.  My fastest is also an f/1.2
> Nikon -- slightly bigger than yours though since the focal length is
> 58mm rather than 50mm.  

Yeah, that's the one I want, too. :)  One just closed on eBay for over
$3000, the first I've seen it top that milestone.  I want one, but I
don't want it $3000-worth.

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David Dyer-Bennet - 25 May 2006 22:45 GMT
> > In real night, I'm often scale-focusing.  My fastest is also an f/1.2
> > Nikon -- slightly bigger than yours though since the focal length is
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> $3000, the first I've seen it top that milestone.  I want one, but I
> don't want it $3000-worth.

Yikes, I'm not sure *I* want it that much :-).  Of course I can't
guarantee another buyer that anxious, or that mine is in as good
condition as the one that just closed.  But there may very well be $3k
of other lenses I'd rather have.  70-210 f/2.8 VR, 50mm f/1.4, 105mm
f/2 DC and/or 135mm f/2 DC, hmm, I seem to still have some cash left
:-).

(I picked mine up used at a National Camera Exchange "tent sale" for
$700 sometime before 1995, but not too many years before.)
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Måns Rullgård - 24 May 2006 00:55 GMT
> Maybe this question has been discussed here before, but I'll ask
> again:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that the main thing a mirror (on a DSLR) does is block the sensor so
> that the LCD screen can't be used for composing.

The main purpose of the mirror is to enable use of the viewfinder.

> It would seem a no-brainer to eliminate the mirror and pentaprism
> setup, thereby allowing the sensor and LCD to be used for composing

It's not that simple.  The sensors used in DSLRs don't support
continuous readout.  Instead, they give superior image quality.
Keeping the shutter closed until you press the button also makes for
faster response.

> (like on a point-and-shoot). If an eye-level viewfinder is necessary,
> then a second electronic display can be incorporated, like on a video
> camera.

Yuck.

> It would seem that the main reason to have a DSLR is to enable the use
> of high-quality interchangeable lenses. Having interior mechanics that
> emulate film SLRs is irrelevant.

Another reason is to enable use of a good optical viewfinder.

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Dr. Boggis - 24 May 2006 01:01 GMT
> Maybe this question has been discussed here before, but I'll ask
> again:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> of high-quality interchangeable lenses. Having interior mechanics that
> emulate film SLRs is irrelevant.

The Olympus E-330 has a "live view" LCD that can show what the sensor
sees, as well as using the optical viewfinder.

Check out the setup on the first page of dpreview's review here:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse330/
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Darrell Larose - 24 May 2006 04:44 GMT
>> Maybe this question has been discussed here before, but I'll ask
>> again:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> The Olympus E-330 has a "live view" LCD that can show what the sensor
> sees, as well as using the optical viewfinder.

It is at the cost of light loss through the optical viewfinder to the
viewfinder sensor. The E330 still has a mirror and shutter as it's imaging
sensor can't do continuous image gathering. A true 100% live view dSLR
camera would also have very high power demandsm with the resulting short
battery life.
Clemens Dorda - 24 May 2006 09:22 GMT
Darrell Larose schrieb:
> It is at the cost of light loss through the optical viewfinder to the
> viewfinder sensor. The E330 still has a mirror and shutter as it's imaging
> sensor can't do continuous image gathering.

This is definitely wrong (I have a E-330 on my own, I know what I'm
talking about). In  mode B, the mirror swings aside, and the image
sensors captures the image for LiveView. The frame rate is comparable to
digital compact cameras, maybe a little bit slower (I haven't done a
side-by-side comparison yet). So the imaging sensor is definitely
capable for continuous image gathering.

> A true 100% live view dSLR
> camera would also have very high power demandsm with the resulting short
> battery life.

That's true. I don't use LiveView for all of my images, but people who
use it very often wrote that battery load is reduced to approximately
200 images (without LiveView, the E-330 can take app. 400-500 images
with one battery load).

Clemens
Sharp - 24 May 2006 01:02 GMT
>It would seem that the main reason to have a DSLR is to enable the use
>of high-quality interchangeable lenses. Having interior mechanics that
>emulate film SLRs is irrelevant.

The main reason to have a DSLR is to allow the use of high quality
interchangeable lenses and to allow you to get the max performance out
of those lenses by using the optical reflex viewfinder which is orders
of magnitude better for composition and focus than a cruddy LCD
display. If you've never looked through one, you'd immediately see the
difference.
RichA - 24 May 2006 01:09 GMT
1.  Current EVF/LCDs don't have the resolution of optical viewfinders,
but can "see" in the
dark via image intensification.
2.  Keeping a large CCD/CMOS working continuously to provide an image
for
and LCD or EVF is too power consumptive and would probably increase
noise (via
increased CCD/CMOS amplifier temperture) in the image if left on all
the time.
3.  It would be a great benefit to DSLR makers and users (in terms of
cost, weight)
if they could dispense with pentaprisms, mirrors, and the mechanism
needed to work
them.

But, Olympus has a unique partial solution.  See:  Olympus E-330.
J. Clarke - 24 May 2006 01:24 GMT
> Maybe this question has been discussed here before, but I'll ask
> again:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> of high-quality interchangeable lenses. Having interior mechanics that
> emulate film SLRs is irrelevant.

Go to a store.  Look in the electronic viewfinder of the best
point-and-shoot they have.  Compare what you see to what you see through
the finder of a Digital Rebel XT.  Pan rapidly while looking through the
electronic finder.

Someday electronic finders may be able to outperform an optical finder.
They aren't right now.

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cjcampbell - 24 May 2006 01:25 GMT
> Maybe this question has been discussed here before, but I'll ask
> again:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that the main thing a mirror (on a DSLR) does is block the sensor so
> that the LCD screen can't be used for composing.

If it did not have a pentaprism, it would not be a reflex camera, would
it? You would have to call it something else.

> It would seem a no-brainer to eliminate the mirror and pentaprism
> setup, thereby allowing the sensor and LCD to be used for composing
> (like on a point-and-shoot). If an eye-level viewfinder is necessary,
> then a second electronic display can be incorporated, like on a video
> camera.

That would be a no-brainer, all right. Just as jumping off a cliff is a
no-brainer.... :-)

Of course, having the LCD on all the time would greatly reduce battery
life and it would introduce a lag between what is happening in front of
the lens and what you see in the LCD. If you don't believe it, just
wave your hand in front of the lens on a point and shoot. You will see
that there is a very noticeable delay between the movement of your hand
and its display on the LCD. That time delay represents the difference
between getting a picture of a deer and a picture of a deer's tail. The
whole point of the DSLR is speed and flexibility. You lose that the
moment you start composing with the LCD.

> It would seem that the main reason to have a DSLR is to enable the use
> of high-quality interchangeable lenses. Having interior mechanics that
> emulate film SLRs is irrelevant.

Not so. The main reason for the DSLR is speed. Interchangeable lenses
are secondary.
John Falstaff - 25 May 2006 23:36 GMT
>> Maybe this question has been discussed here before, but I'll ask
>> again:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> If it did not have a pentaprism, it would not be a reflex camera, would
> it? You would have to call it something else.

Well, not exactly. The "reflex" implies a mirror, but not necessarily a
pentaprism. There were single- and twin-lens reflexes for many years before
the first pentaprism came along.

>> It would seem a no-brainer to eliminate the mirror and pentaprism
>> setup, thereby allowing the sensor and LCD to be used for composing
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Not so. The main reason for the DSLR is speed. Interchangeable lenses
> are secondary.

The *main reason* for any SLR, historically, is absence of parallax --  
seeing the image in the viewfinder (or focusing screen) as formed by the
lens, so just as the film (or sensor) will see it. Since the LCD monitor of
almost any non-SLR digital camera does that reasonably well (if relatively
coarsely, and as you say with some slight delay), the dSLR's advantage in
this characteristic is much diminished, and the advantages of lens
interchangeability, speed, and lower noise become more important.

Any of these things may be "the main reason" for any particular user, and
only he can define it. I don't buy a dSLR primarily for speed, so that's not
"the main reason" for me. Lens interchangeability is much more important to
me.
David Dyer-Bennet - 25 May 2006 23:56 GMT
> > Not so. The main reason for the DSLR is speed. Interchangeable lenses
> > are secondary.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> diminished, and the advantages of lens interchangeability, speed,
> and lower noise become more important.

I'd have said the easy abilty to interchange lenses was the *main*
reason for the SLR historically.  The lens doesn't have to couple with
the focusing system and the viewfinder system (as with a Leica RF),
you don't have to have *two* lenses coupled together (as for a Mamiya
C220/C330).

> Any of these things may be "the main reason" for any particular
> user, and only he can define it. I don't buy a dSLR primarily for
> speed, so that's not "the main reason" for me. Lens
> interchangeability is much more important to me.

Certainly each person gets to decide what features matter to them.
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John Falstaff - 26 May 2006 00:59 GMT
>> > Not so. The main reason for the DSLR is speed. Interchangeable lenses
>> > are secondary.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I'd have said the easy abilty to interchange lenses was the *main*
> reason for the SLR historically.

I suspect you're only thinking back as far as the first Exakta, which I
think came out in 1936.

But SLRs existed long before that. Graflex made large-format SLRs at least
as far back as 1907, and that sure didn't have any easy ability to
interchange lenses. They must have been horrendous monsters to use, but
Dorothea Lange shot her famous "migrant mother" photos with one in 4x5. I
think they were made in sizes up to 5x7, but I'm not sure of that.

> The lens doesn't have to couple with
> the focusing system and the viewfinder system (as with a Leica RF),

Yes, and of course an RF is extremely awkward to make work with longer
lenses anyway. And you have the parallax problem.

> you don't have to have *two* lenses coupled together (as for a Mamiya
> C220/C330).

And with a TLR you still have the parallax problem.

>> Any of these things may be "the main reason" for any particular
>> user, and only he can define it. I don't buy a dSLR primarily for
>> speed, so that's not "the main reason" for me. Lens
>> interchangeability is much more important to me.
>
> Certainly each person gets to decide what features matter to them.

Just so.
David Dyer-Bennet - 26 May 2006 04:05 GMT
> >> > Not so. The main reason for the DSLR is speed. Interchangeable lenses
> >> > are secondary.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Dorothea Lange shot her famous "migrant mother" photos with one in 4x5. I
> think they were made in sizes up to 5x7, but I'm not sure of that.

But they weren't very widely used; it's when the SLR got lenses that
it became a runaway success and started taking over photography.

> > The lens doesn't have to couple with
> > the focusing system and the viewfinder system (as with a Leica RF),
>
> Yes, and of course an RF is extremely awkward to make work with longer
> lenses anyway. And you have the parallax problem.

I used an M3 for several years, and never found the parallax problem
troublesome.  The frame moves in the viewfinder to indicate the
boundaries at the focused distance, remember, and then it won't focus
closer than about 3 feet.  

> > you don't have to have *two* lenses coupled together (as for a Mamiya
> > C220/C330).
>
> And with a TLR you still have the parallax problem.

True, it does, but I never actually had any problems using my
Yashicamat 124G; and I think the C330 at least had a parallax
correction indicator in the viewfinder, didn't it?
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John Falstaff - 27 May 2006 06:36 GMT
>> >> > Not so. The main reason for the DSLR is speed. Interchangeable
>> >> > lenses
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> But they weren't very widely used; it's when the SLR got lenses that
> it became a runaway success and started taking over photography.

Well, it took quite a while to take over photography. My recollection is
that it wasn't until the late '50s that SLRs started to become really
popular, say 20+ years after the first Exakta. And it was still the absence
of parallax, and seeing the image as it was formed by the taking lens, that
eventually made it a success. It's worth remembering that some SLRs didn't
even have true lens interchangeability, long after the type became popular,
e.g. the Contaflex, the Retina Reflex and one or two others.

When I first became seriously interested in photography, in 1951, the Exakta
(and its cheaper cousin the Praktica) were not that highly regarded by most
35mm photographers. The Leica was the world standard, Contax having been
pretty much looted by the Soviets, Nikon and Canon were just beginning to
make names for themselves -- all rangefinders. I don't recall that the
Japanese even made an SLR at that time. The Exakta sold for about the same
as the Leica but was sniffed at by most. And while lens interchangeability
was of course important to some it was by no means something universally
desired. A friend's father had a Leica IIIf (I think), only had the 50mm
lens for it and had not the slightest interest in any more lenses. Cartier
Bresson used a Leica and almost always with the 50. I think lens
interchangeability only became important for the consumer market when cheap
lenses became available.

In order to use even moderately long lenses with a Leica you had to go to
one of those reflex housings, right? That couldn't have been much fun. All
because the camera couldn't show you the image formed by the lens.

>> > The lens doesn't have to couple with
>> > the focusing system and the viewfinder system (as with a Leica RF),
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> boundaries at the focused distance, remember, and then it won't focus
> closer than about 3 feet.

Sure. I used RFs and TLRs for years myself, but I wouldn't say the parallax
problem wasn't troublesome -- it was just something most of us accepted and
had to live with until SLRs became available at reasonable prices. As you
say, the Leica (and most other RFs, and TLRs too) wouldn't focus much closer
than 3 feet -- which partly took care of the parallax problem, but at the
expense of eliminating closer subjects, unless you went to the bother of
using close-up lenses, and then you really couldn't see exactly what you
were going to get.

>> > you don't have to have *two* lenses coupled together (as for a Mamiya
>> > C220/C330).
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Yashicamat 124G; and I think the C330 at least had a parallax
> correction indicator in the viewfinder, didn't it?

Beats me. I had a couple of Yashica-Mats but never a Mamiya.

No doubt it depends on what you want to do. As I recall, in the '60s and
'70s the TLR was pretty much the standard for wedding photographers, and I
suppose that for that kind of work it was perfectly satisfactory.
cjcampbell - 26 May 2006 01:53 GMT
> >> Maybe this question has been discussed here before, but I'll ask
> >> again:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> pentaprism. There were single- and twin-lens reflexes for many years before
> the first pentaprism came along.

Okay. Even I know what a reflex camera is. But the point is, it would
not be a reflex camera any more if you took out the mirror.

> > Not so. The main reason for the DSLR is speed. Interchangeable lenses
> > are secondary.
>
> The *main reason* for any SLR, historically, is absence of parallax --
> seeing the image in the viewfinder (or focusing screen) as formed by the
> lens, so just as the film (or sensor) will see it.

HIstorically, that is true. It is why I started using SLRs as soon as I
could afford them back in the '60s. But speaking for today, parallax is
no longer a problem with sensor driven LCDs. The main reason for not
using the LCD is speed, with focusing a close second. Third is battery
life.

> Since the LCD monitor of
> almost any non-SLR digital camera does that reasonably well (if relatively
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> "the main reason" for me. Lens interchangeability is much more important to
> me.
John Falstaff - 27 May 2006 06:43 GMT
>> >> Maybe this question has been discussed here before, but I'll ask
>> >> again:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Okay. Even I know what a reflex camera is. But the point is, it would
> not be a reflex camera any more if you took out the mirror.

That's what I'm saying: a reflex camera has to have a mirror, but it doesn't
have to have a pentaprism and a great many of them did not.

>> > Not so. The main reason for the DSLR is speed. Interchangeable lenses
>> > are secondary.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> could afford them back in the '60s. But speaking for today, parallax is
> no longer a problem with sensor driven LCDs.

Right. I think that's probably everyone's reaction the very first time he
uses a digital camera -- the LCD monitor makes it just like an SLR. Almost.
Sort of.  ;-)

> The main reason for not
> using the LCD is speed, with focusing a close second. Third is battery
> life.

Agreed.

>> Since the LCD monitor of
>> almost any non-SLR digital camera does that reasonably well (if
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> to
>> me.
Randall Ainsworth - 24 May 2006 03:01 GMT
> Other than being a holdover from the film SLR design, what is the
> reason that DSLRs still have mirror boxes and pentaprisms? It seems
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> of high-quality interchangeable lenses. Having interior mechanics that
> emulate film SLRs is irrelevant.

Another tard...
M Collins - 24 May 2006 10:31 GMT
> Another tard...

I'll bet that you're the kind of arsehole who laughs when someone hurts
themselves and then tries to justify it by saying "they should have been
more careful".

Get a life man - and while you're at it, stop masterbating in public - it's
embarrasing.
Randall Ainsworth - 24 May 2006 13:16 GMT
> I'll bet that you're the kind of arsehole who laughs when someone hurts
> themselves and then tries to justify it by saying "they should have been
> more careful".

It was a stupid question that's frequently asked in these groups.
Dr. Boggis - 24 May 2006 17:53 GMT
> > I'll bet that you're the kind of arsehole who laughs when someone hurts
> > themselves and then tries to justify it by saying "they should have been
> > more careful".
>
> It was a stupid question that's frequently asked in these groups.

And your reply was helpful in what way? If you think it's a troll, don't
feed it. If you're just posting smart-arsed comments to try to be funny,
you might as well piss off.
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John Falstaff - 25 May 2006 23:38 GMT
>> I'll bet that you're the kind of arsehole who laughs when someone hurts
>> themselves and then tries to justify it by saying "they should have been
>> more careful".
>
> It was a stupid question that's frequently asked in these groups.

If it's "frequently asked," then obviously it's something many people want
to know the answer to. Therefore, not "a stupid question."
Randall Ainsworth - 26 May 2006 02:38 GMT
> If it's "frequently asked," then obviously it's something many people want
> to know the answer to. Therefore, not "a stupid question."

More like there are a lot of stupid people around...
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 27 May 2006 15:32 GMT
>>If it's "frequently asked," then obviously it's something many people want
>>to know the answer to. Therefore, not "a stupid question."
>
> More like there are a lot of stupid people around...

While I'll agree with that ;-), just about any question asked
by someone who is not familiar with a subject does not make them
stupid.  It only shows their lack of knowledge of the subject,
so their question is not stupid.  Many people do not know how a
camera works or why a particular design is the way it is.
That does not make them stupid.  They could be far smarter
than everyone in this newsgroup, but not knowledgeable about
this subject.  That is why people come here and ask questions.

One can say do a google search.  Well, sometimes google just delivers
crap or unrelated stuff that doesn't help answer the question.
Maybe someone didn't know enough of the key words to type
in the right ones to get to the right pages in the search engine.

Roger
M Collins - 26 May 2006 12:03 GMT
>> I'll bet that you're the kind of arsehole who laughs when someone hurts
>> themselves and then tries to justify it by saying "they should have been
>> more careful".
>
> It was a stupid question that's frequently asked in these groups.

It might seem like a stupid question to someone who already knows the
answer, but that in no way justifies you calling them a "tard" (aka
"retard"). God knows we've shown more respect when reading your demented
wafflings than you've shown to others.
Ryan Robbins - 24 May 2006 03:09 GMT
> Maybe this question has been discussed here before, but I'll ask
> again:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that the main thing a mirror (on a DSLR) does is block the sensor so
> that the LCD screen can't be used for composing.

Why would you want to waste money on a live preview? Why would you want to
waste money on batteries to power a live preview? Besides, you will get a
more accurate representation of what you're going to get by looking through
the viewfinder anyway.
Andrew Haley - 24 May 2006 13:41 GMT
> Maybe this question has been discussed here before, but I'll ask
> again:

> Other than being a holdover from the film SLR design, what is the
> reason that DSLRs still have mirror boxes and pentaprisms? It seems
> that the main thing a mirror (on a DSLR) does is block the sensor so
> that the LCD screen can't be used for composing.

The short explanation is that in a DSLR sensor the entire area of the
chip is used for image capture and so it's not possible to get a live
preview from the image sensor.  However, it is possible to make hybrid
sensors that do allow this, and these are used in low-end cameras.

There's an article at
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1157575,00.asp which does a
reasonable job of explaining the differences between the types of
sensor.

Andrew.
Albert Nurick - 24 May 2006 17:54 GMT
> Other than being a holdover from the film SLR design, what is the
> reason that DSLRs still have mirror boxes and pentaprisms? It seems
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> of high-quality interchangeable lenses. Having interior mechanics that
> emulate film SLRs is irrelevant.

It's because the current technology for small LCD viewing screens isn't
as good as an optical viewfinder... and because of history, as you
suggested.

As with other things digital, electronic viewfindres will improve over
time.

I'd be surprised if DSLRs had optical viewfinders in a decade.

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DoN. Nichols - 25 May 2006 01:05 GMT
According to Albert Nurick <albert@nurick.com>:

> > Other than being a holdover from the film SLR design, what is the
> > reason that DSLRs still have mirror boxes and pentaprisms? It seems
> > that the main thing a mirror (on a DSLR) does is block the sensor so
> > that the LCD screen can't be used for composing.

    [ ... ]

> > It would seem that the main reason to have a DSLR is to enable the use
> > of high-quality interchangeable lenses. Having interior mechanics that
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I'd be surprised if DSLRs had optical viewfinders in a decade.

    In that case, they should not be called DSLRs, because they
would no longer be SLRs, digital or not.  They would, instead, be
interchangeable lens versions of the P&S cameras of today, and I guess
that we would need a new name for them.

    But *I* certainly prefer the optical viewfinder, even with the
limitations of the D70.  (I'm not so sure about the D50, as it seemed
*too* dark to me when I checked out one in the store.)  The D200, is of
course superior to either.  Now all I need to do is to afford one. :-)

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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Albert Nurick - 25 May 2006 15:08 GMT
> According to Albert Nurick <albert@nurick.com>:
> > It's because the current technology for small LCD viewing screens
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> interchangeable lens versions of the P&S cameras of today, and I guess
> that we would need a new name for them.

OK.

>     But I certainly prefer the optical viewfinder, even with the
> limitations of the D70.  (I'm not so sure about the D50, as it seemed
> *too* dark to me when I checked out one in the store.)  The D200, is
> of course superior to either.  Now all I need to do is to afford one.
> :-)

Agreed.  Right now, the D200 looks very appealing.

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David Dyer-Bennet - 25 May 2006 20:40 GMT
> >     But I certainly prefer the optical viewfinder, even with the
> > limitations of the D70.  (I'm not so sure about the D50, as it seemed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Agreed.  Right now, the D200 looks very appealing.

I moved from the Fuji S2 to the D200 in March.  I find that the
viewfinder is better, focusing is much faster and fails less often,
the better handling of AI[S] lenses is of some value (I still used
them a lot on the S2, without metering, but it's nice to be able to
meter through them, and it's also nice to have the focal length and
aperture recorded in the EXIF data).

For me one of the big differences was getting iTTL flash, which the S2
is too old to have (D100, contemporary with the S2, didn't have it
either); but that's not a difference for somebody comparing the D70 or
D50.
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David Dyer-Bennet - 24 May 2006 19:19 GMT
> Maybe this question has been discussed here before, but I'll ask
> again:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> then a second electronic display can be incorporated, like on a video
> camera.

Yes.  Except that by incorporating the live-video feedout circuits on
the sensor, you use up space that could otherwise be used for bigger
pixels.  And by using a design that doesn't have to be blanked in the
dark before exposure, you sacrifice some other quality metrics (I
don't now remember exactly what).  

Oh well.

> It would seem that the main reason to have a DSLR is to enable the use
> of high-quality interchangeable lenses. Having interior mechanics that
> emulate film SLRs is irrelevant.

Certainly it started that way.  But the sensors used are different,
and better, and don't have the features needed for shutterless
operation, and adding those features would compromise the quality.
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Jim - 25 May 2006 03:37 GMT
> Other than being a holdover from the film SLR design, what is the
> reason that DSLRs still have mirror boxes and pentaprisms? It seems
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> then a second electronic display can be incorporated, like on a video
> camera.
--

Every try to  hand hold an 80-200 F2.8 lens at arms length?   Ever try
to see anything on LCD on a bright sunny day?    Ever try to critically
focus on an LCD?   Thank you all the same.. the reason I don't own a
point and shoot is because most have at best electronic view finders
which drive me batty and at worst, only the dumb LCD.   The LCD
performs two functions for me.. lets me look at histograms on critical
photographs and blown highlights and serves as a display for the menu
system.   And even on the Canon 20D it is to small to make any other
useful evaluation of the photograph.    I wait till I off load the data
and examine them on a decent monitor.

Jim     <jen....not....home..remvdots...@....yahoo    
Alan Browne - 26 May 2006 01:04 GMT
> of high-quality interchangeable lenses. Having interior mechanics that
> emulate film SLRs is irrelevant.

You're quite right and that's what the LCD screen on a P&S does: emulate
the optics (mirror pentaprism) of a SLR.

Also, the optics of the SLR viewfinder are very sharp and clear (in most
cases), you can use the DOF previe to get a feeling for the OOFness of
the shot.  You can use the viewfinder all day long without any power usage..

Metering done by the SLR viewfinder sensors means that the camera (or
better the photographer) can set the exposure as desired and is one part
of the chain why SLR's have very little shutter delay compared to just
about every P&S digital.

When shooting in the studio, once I have th