Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / April 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Meters are for suckers

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
dtype - 28 Apr 2006 21:26 GMT
(Title not quite right, but sort of...)

I've recently begun to add strobe lighting to my photography hobby, and
wanted to know if my approach is off for studio work.

Everyone touts the merits of using a meter, and for film photography,
or photography in mixed lighting, I can see this as a definite need.
But for studio work, I just don't see the value.

Right now, I setup the shoot with an appropriate background, whether it
be still life or a model shoot, and make a wild guess on the total
amount of lighting and fire off a test shot.

A histogram later, and I know whether or not all of my data is within
the dynamic range of the camera. I get relative lighting values from
the modeling lights, and from the pic itself if I'm feeling up to
tethering my laptop to the setup.

It only takes a few test shots to ensure that my raw picture looks
good, and I haven't blown highlights or lost shadow detail. Everything
is shot in raw, so my only real concern is making sure that I have good
enough data to throw into my post-processing.

Is this a normal way to do things in the modern age of instant feedback
on photos?

-drew
David Dyer-Bennet - 28 Apr 2006 22:13 GMT
> (Title not quite right, but sort of...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> the modeling lights, and from the pic itself if I'm feeling up to
> tethering my laptop to the setup.

I'm with you; a flash meter isn't nearly as important as it used to be
for studio lighting setups, if you're using a digital camera.  As you
say, test shots and histogram give you all the information the meter
did and more.  I recently moved my Gossen Luna Pro F *out* of my
working bag, finally, after about 6 years of digital shooting in which
I'd never used it.  Remember, it's fairly small and light, and there
wasn't anything else clamoring for the space it took in the bag (or I
probably would have moved it much earlier).
Signature

David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

Wayne - 29 Apr 2006 00:18 GMT
>Everyone touts the merits of using a meter, and for film photography,
>or photography in mixed lighting, I can see this as a definite need.
>But for studio work, I just don't see the value.

I guess "good enough" only depends on how critical or casual you might
be, but that is an entirely different discussion then.

It is wrong to equate histograms and exposure, because they are not the
same thing at all.  All a histogram tells you is if your highlights are
blown out (you really dont have a clue about the rest of the data).  
Exposure puts gray things in the middle, whether you have any gray
things or not, or any highlights either.  This is very different.

What if you want specular highlights in a product shot?  What about low
key shots?  If only using a histogram, at least throw a white towel into
the test shot, so you have one little clue what the data represents.

What about controlling lighting ratio of key to fill light?  What about
controling the level of the background?   Heck, what about gamma?
(increasing flash/exposure 2x will not move the right edge of data from
128 to 255).  Histograms and correct exposure are simply different
concepts.   Flash meters are certainly convenient in the studio.

Plus that little coarse 2" LCD just aint the same to judge the final
results either.
David Dyer-Bennet - 29 Apr 2006 02:18 GMT
> >Everyone touts the merits of using a meter, and for film photography,
> >or photography in mixed lighting, I can see this as a definite need.
> >But for studio work, I just don't see the value.
>
> I guess "good enough" only depends on how critical or casual you might
> be, but that is an entirely different discussion then.

Yes.  But I don't find the "good enough" of a meter to be that
tempting, when using the camera itself to check the actual exposure is
so easy.

> It is wrong to equate histograms and exposure, because they are not the
> same thing at all.  All a histogram tells you is if your highlights are
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> key shots?  If only using a histogram, at least throw a white towel into
> the test shot, so you have one little clue what the data represents.

The histogram gives you much *more* information than a meter does.
Certainly it has to be interperted with knowledge and regard for your
intentions for the scene.

> What about controlling lighting ratio of key to fill light?  What about
> controling the level of the background?   Heck, what about gamma?
> (increasing flash/exposure 2x will not move the right edge of data from
> 128 to 255).  Histograms and correct exposure are simply different
> concepts.   Flash meters are certainly convenient in the studio.

True, simplistic misunderstanding of the histogram won't help you get
the results you want.

> Plus that little coarse 2" LCD just aint the same to judge the final
> results either.

But moving the CF over to the computer with the calibrated screen is
faster than even a Polaroid, and *much* faster than E-6 turnaround.
Signature

David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

J. Clarke - 29 Apr 2006 03:34 GMT
> (Title not quite right, but sort of...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Is this a normal way to do things in the modern age of instant feedback
> on photos?

You're basically just using the camera as a meter.  If it works for you by
all means go for it.

> -drew

Signature

--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

JR - 29 Apr 2006 07:29 GMT
I cannot live without my meter.....I regularly balance 4 strobes,
reflectors, and shoot digital....Its FASTER to use a meter if you are
doing things critically....Say you want to shoot the scene at f/11 for
sharpness and appropriate DOF....you need to balance all your light some
at f/16, some at f/8, etc...if you just set your camera and look at the
histogram then you dont see your lighting ratios, and what if the ratios
look ok, but you are at f/5.6, how do you change your ratios
appropriately....If you use your meter correctly, you will be very fast
and much more accurate.  If you are using 1 or 2 light and just want a
good exposure then by all means use your method.  Also the histogram
wont tell you what your ratios are like, you must LOOK at the image on
the LCD...which is not very accurate at all and can vary wildly
depending on your viewing conditions and your LCD settings....A meter
doesnt lie and isnt that easily fooled.

JR
http://www.johnrhonephoto.com/V3/index.html
Stacey - 29 Apr 2006 07:47 GMT
> It only takes a few test shots to ensure that my raw picture looks
> good, and I haven't blown highlights or lost shadow detail. Everything
> is shot in raw, so my only real concern is making sure that I have good
> enough data to throw into my post-processing.

Just because you can pull the image out of the RAW file doesn't mean it's
optimal. Just like the exposure latitude print film has, the range isn't
equal in quality from one end to the other. If it works for you, I'm not
going to argue but when I have time, I still use a hand held meter before I
shoot.

Signature


 Stacey

Skip M - 29 Apr 2006 16:25 GMT
> (Title not quite right, but sort of...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> -drew

I always use a meter as a starting point, it saves time over shooting,
checking the histo, shooting again, checking histo...  Meter, shoot, check
histo, get to work...

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Randall Ainsworth - 29 Apr 2006 20:38 GMT
> Right now, I setup the shoot with an appropriate background, whether it
> be still life or a model shoot, and make a wild guess on the total
> amount of lighting and fire off a test shot.

If you're familiar enough with your lights, a "wild" guess should be
unnecessary - you should be able to get pretty close on the first try.
Paul Furman - 29 Apr 2006 23:11 GMT
>>Right now, I setup the shoot with an appropriate background, whether it
>>be still life or a model shoot, and make a wild guess on the total
>>amount of lighting and fire off a test shot.
>
> If you're familiar enough with your lights, a "wild" guess should be
> unnecessary - you should be able to get pretty close on the first try.

'Guessing' might actually hone the guessing skills quite effectively. I
never really have shot in full on manual much so I don't hardly think
about raw exposure values, I shoot in aperture mode for the most part &
apply EC as needed with the histogram to assess or more often just take
'close enough' & adjust raw as needed. I've only been serious about
photography for the last year or so. I have done the laptop tether thing
and that is when manual makes sense to me doing the rare studio type
shooting, or continuous shooting in certain conditions. I'm more into
nature type work & street shooting, I'm gradually learning to be more
deliberate :-)
Paul Furman - 30 Apr 2006 16:22 GMT
> I've only been serious about photography for the last year or so.

um, make that two years...
Alan Browne - 30 Apr 2006 18:28 GMT
> (Title not quite right, but sort of...)
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> be still life or a model shoot, and make a wild guess on the total
> amount of lighting and fire off a test shot.

You're missing the real point of metering studio lights which is not
overall exposure, but control of ratios to achieve specific lighting
effects.  Be these dramatic 8:1 lighting ratios, 4:1 portraits, blown
out or subdued backgrounds or other, the use of a meter is the proper
tool for advanced lighting.

In effect you are metering.  You're just using the camera as a meter (of
sorts).

> A histogram later, and I know whether or not all of my data is within
> the dynamic range of the camera. I get relative lighting values from
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Is this a normal way to do things in the modern age of instant feedback
> on photos?

Studio shooters have long used Polaroid test shots to evaluate the
overall effect of the lighting, to look for unintended hot spots, flare
or shaddows; etc.  The Polaroid has simply been replaced by the digital
camera ... including for film shooting in the studio.

But to say "Meters are for suckers" is to say that you know how to get a
dynamic range approriate exposure, but you know little about lighting.

The light appeal of a photo does not come from getting the exposure
"right" but from getting the lighting right.  These are two very
different things.

http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/57538102 required metering the VU
lights as well as three strobes with two different colors.
http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/54268496 backlight to foreground
metering.
http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/53173364 background to subject metering.
http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/48370148 three lights, different colors
http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/44374694 backligting to highlight
lighting.  (this is a screwed up shot).
http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/36669126 incident lighting (subject)
to backlighting (reflection).

Cheers,
Alan

Signature

-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
--      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.