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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / April 2006

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beginner's question on digital vs film SLRs

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michael - 24 Apr 2006 08:10 GMT
I'm planning to take some photography classes in the fall at my local
community college and i've been having trouble deciding whether to
start with a film or digital SLR camera. the only real appeal i see
with digital is that any mistakes i make while learning won't cost me
in film. a friend has offered to sell me his old film camera with all
the lenses for $200. it's in excellent condition (unfortunately i
forget the brand) and it sounds like a good deal judging by the lens
prices i've researched. however, it is an older camera (from the 80's).
i don't know how relevant dates are with film cameras, though i'm sure
there have been some advances in 20 years. i do want to learn film
photography, though mainly because the idea of developing my own photos
holds some personal appeal.

anyway - any suggestions?

thanks
michael
ian lincoln - 24 Apr 2006 10:31 GMT
> I'm planning to take some photography classes in the fall at my local
> community college and i've been having trouble deciding whether to
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> thanks
> michael

What brand is this film camera?  All that glass may be compatible with
DSLRS.  As for developing your own photos you will need at least a tank,
measuring equipment, chemicals.  then either a quality scanner or enlarger
and a darkroom.  Oh yeah and paper.  Ok at college but quite inconvenient at
home.  Still if already second hand you won't lose so much money later.
What you will miss is the feedback.  On a dslr all the camera settings are
recorded.  Not only can you see what picture came out you can see what you
did right and what you did wrong.  If the camera and equipment isn't auto
focus you won't be able to transfer your experience to digital as easily.
Best give all the equipment details so you can be better advised.  No good
getting ahwole lot of lenses if there are only one or two good ones in the
bunch.
Pete Mitchell - 24 Apr 2006 11:29 GMT
> I'm planning to take some photography classes in the fall at my local
> community college and i've been having trouble deciding whether to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> photography, though mainly because the idea of developing my own photos
> holds some personal appeal.

In my opinion film is, for all (ok ok, most) intents-and-purposes, dead.

In a learning environment we learn by doing something - evaluating the
response (feedback) - adjusting what we're doing - and repeat until we get
the results we want. To do this in a digital environment is easy - no need
to remember what shutter speed you used - or what F-Stop - or whether or not
you dialed in an exposure or flash compensation (etc) because it's all saved
in the Exif data along with the image, and additionally you can review your
results instantly. Using film by comparison you'd have to take many detailed
and time-consuming notes - send off the film to be developed - and then
review the results. If they're not what you were after, the opportunity to
redo them could well have long since passed.

I think you need to be careful you don't fall for the "self-fulfilling
prophecy" trap. I used to teach scuba diving - people learn to dive for
pleasure - the two biggest things that add to that are a warm wetsuit, and a
mask that doesn't leak - but people wouldn't want to spend hundreds of
dollars on buying a quality suit and mask in case they didn't like it - so
they get a cheap worn-out suit and a leaky mask - find that they're
miserable in the water because of it - then go away thinking "scuba diving
sucks - I'm glad I didn't spend hundreds of dollars on new equipment". Same
with photography - the bottom line is that a  good-entry level camera and
lens is going to cost a lot more than $200, but the results are worth it.

You get what you pay for.
David J Taylor - 24 Apr 2006 11:45 GMT
Perhaps for someone wanting to learn photography, the DSLR is not the best
choice, if they only have a limited amount to spend?  Better to spend US
$200 - $300 on a really good non-SLR camera with full manual controls,
without the expense of extra lenses, flashguns etc.  Yes, it would be
important to appreciate the limitations of such kit, but learning to work
round the limitations may be a good experience.

The OP would find computer processing as satisfying as darkroom processing
with chemicals and, particularly for colour, easier to achieve consistent
results.  I would certainly not recommend spending $200 on film kit today.

David
Pete Mitchell - 24 Apr 2006 12:24 GMT
> Perhaps for someone wanting to learn photography, the DSLR is not the best
> choice, if they only have a limited amount to spend?  Better to spend US
> $200 - $300 on a really good non-SLR camera with full manual controls,
> without the expense of extra lenses, flashguns etc.  Yes, it would be
> important to appreciate the limitations of such kit, but learning to work
> round the limitations may be a good experience.

I suspect that for $200 you could have a lot of fun with a film camera - and
still learn a lot, but at the end of the day it'll be much slower learning
than with a D-SLR, and ultimately (I suspect) $200 he'll have to write-off
at some point.

So if the educational value is worth $200, and he is a long way from being
able to afford something like a Canon 350D, then I'd say go for it - but
it'll be $200 that he'll have to replace at a later stage when he makes the
inevitable jump to digital.
Jon B - 24 Apr 2006 12:41 GMT
David J Taylor
<david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk> wrote:

> Perhaps for someone wanting to learn photography, the DSLR is not the best
> choice, if they only have a limited amount to spend?  Better to spend US
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> with chemicals and, particularly for colour, easier to achieve consistent
> results.  I would certainly not recommend spending $200 on film kit today.

Depends what he is buying for $200 doesn't it? If it is a kit with
various lenses he may be getting a good deal of lenses to run on his new
DSLR purchase next year... Of course if it was a Canon FD, or a bunch of
old Sigma EOS lenses they won't be worth much for future use.

I'd recommend going the digital approach though. As somebody else has
said it gives you intant response, you can experiment (don't use
program), learn, play and get instant feedback of what has or hasn't
work and reshoot till it does [1]. Digital is an expensive initial down
payment today, but over time it soon pays back in saved film costs, you
can actually go out and enjoy taking as many or few pictures without
worrying about the end cost.

[1] Flash is a particularly good example of this I've found, and I'm
actually experimenting more with flash as I can see if it is working, or
wrecking a shot. With film the flash spent more time in the bag as it
was much harder to guarantee results.
Signature

Jon B
Above email address IS valid.
<http://www.bramley-computers.co.uk/> Apple Laptop Repairs.

J. Clarke - 24 Apr 2006 13:03 GMT
> I'm planning to take some photography classes in the fall at my local
> community college and i've been having trouble deciding whether to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> anyway - any suggestions?

Find the instructors for the courses and talk to them.  The courses may be
geared toward film or toward digital--if so then that pretty much makes the
decision.

Beyond that I have some thoughts but not many answers.

An "older camera from the '80s", assuming that it's a good model in good
working order, should work fine.  What it won't have is quite as much
auto-everything as a newer one.  Any zoom lenses will likely be slower or
not quite as sharp as current lenses--prime lenses from the '80s should be
fine--also you won't find extremely wide zoom ranges.

If you've never done darkroom work you may find it less appealing after
you've done it.  Black and white is easy and fun.  Color is finicky and
gets expensive very quickly.  Important question to ask yourself--is there
a room in your house where you can set up at least 6 feet of counter space
and have running water and a reasonably sized and shaped sink and no
spousal conflict in total darkness?  If not then setting up your own
darkroom is going to be problematical.  If your kitchen can be darkened
completely and if your wife isn't going to go ballistic and if your local
regulators don't get shirty about photographic chemicals in the drain water
then you're probably in good shape there.

Digital has several appeals.  The first is that most of the pro world is
headed that way.  The second is that you can easily preview before you
print.  The third is that additional shots don't put you out of pocket--you
can, for example, bracket any shot in which "capturing the moment" is not
at issue without using up a lot of film on shots that you _know_ you aren't
going to use.  The fourth is that a darkroom that can do optically and
chemically what Photoshop can do is, well, "high end" doesn't begin to
cover it.  Of course you can scan your negatives into Photoshop for editing
and printing but if you're going to do that you may as well start out with
digital.

The big downside of digital for learning is that if you don't use it
_carefully_ you don't learn--the fact that there is a cost (other than the
minuscule amount of electric power needed to charge a camera battery)
associated with even _seeing_ what you get on film can make you more
disciplined and think more about each shot, the downside is that it can
make you excessively so.

The advice used to be "start out with a manual camera and Tri-X" and I think
that was sound--focus, shutter speed, aperture, lighting, and composition
are the fundamentals--if you understand those you aren't going to go far
wrong.  Unfortunately there's no real equivalent in the digital world, at
least not at a reasonable price.  Any good digital SLR and many of the
better point-and-shoots have manual modes that are more or less convenient
to use, but most of them still have auto-everything options, and on many
the manual settings are far more awkward than they were with film cameras.
In that sense an older film camera has an advantage as a learning tool.

> thanks
> michael

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--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

David Littlewood - 25 Apr 2006 10:40 GMT
>If you've never done darkroom work you may find it less appealing after
>you've done it.  Black and white is easy and fun.  Color is finicky and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>regulators don't get shirty about photographic chemicals in the drain water
>then you're probably in good shape there.

You can do most things - at least, film processing and colour printing -
with a dark room for loading film into a daylight tank, and exposing
paper and again loading into a daylight tank. The wet processing can be
done in daylight.

Bit more difficult for B&W printing, as most paper varieties do not like
being processed in a rotary tank - they tend to go soft and scrunch up.
You can get away with using trays in the darkroom and then taking them
to the sink (in daylight) for washing.

My darkroom was organised on these lines - I had no convenient place to
have a sink or running water in a darkroom - and I processed around a
thousand E6 films and Ilfochrome prints. Its still there, but my work is
mostly digital these days and it's getting overgrown with clutter....

I disagree that colour processing is inherently much more difficult than
B&W. You have to be a little more careful with temperature control, and
the process has more steps, but in many ways reversal colour printing is
actually simpler, given a well-exposed (i.e. not over-exposed) slide -
there are less variables to worry about.

I do however agree with most of the other comments.

David
Signature

David Littlewood

Darrell Larose - 24 Apr 2006 15:47 GMT
> I'm planning to take some photography classes in the fall at my local
> community college and i've been having trouble deciding whether to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> anyway - any suggestions?

What does the local college suggest? The local Photo programs here at the
community colleges don't do film. They pulled out the darkrooms a year or
two ago. Their equipment list says the student MUST buy a Nikon D70s and a
Mac PowerBook.  Their is a good chance you may not have a darkroom at
school.
piperut - 24 Apr 2006 16:26 GMT
> > I'm planning to take some photography classes in the fall at my local
> > community college and i've been having trouble deciding whether to
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Mac PowerBook.  Their is a good chance you may not have a darkroom at
> school.

Everyone has made some valid points.  I have a few comments:

1. You really need to talk with the instructors of the photo courses
you are going to enroll in to decide if this camera kit will do the job
or not.  Start here.

2. To really learn the art and science of photography, you need to
start on an all manual, manual focus, film camera that you use a light
meter. (IMHO).  The closer the camera gets to an all manual film camera
the better.  Most cameras now come with built in light meters.

The reason I make the second statement - it forces you to take your
time, and learn to compose your photos, and think about the shot.  You
are forced to learn the rule of 3rd's, etc.  Down the road, this pays
bid dividends.

So, even if the camera kit is an old Canon FD mount kit, and the
instuctor says it will work, if you want to really learn the art and
science of photography, it might be worth the investment realizing that
you are investing in it for education, and not as a long term camera
usage.  You will out grow the camera in a few years.  However, you will
learn a lot more about photography by using an all manual camera to
start with then if you have a auto focus, auto everything digital
camera.

This is the way I would teach someone, but I might have a person that
really wants to learn photography start by making a pin hole camera
like I did when I was ...oh 7 or 8 years old.

roland
John McWilliams - 24 Apr 2006 20:03 GMT
>>>I'm planning to take some photography classes in the fall at my local
>>>community college and i've been having trouble deciding whether to
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> start with then if you have a auto focus, auto everything digital
> camera.

Another thought or two: If he's really a friend, he'd loan you the
camera for a few months. Or rent it cheap.

In any event, please say just what kit he's offering, and you'll get
lots of opinions should you ask for them.  Hell, you'll get lots anyway...

Signature

john mcwilliams

John Falstaff - 24 Apr 2006 21:28 GMT
> I'm planning to take some photography classes in the fall at my local
> community college and i've been having trouble deciding whether to
> start with a film or digital SLR camera.

Get the school's catalog and it should to some extent make that decision for
you. No point in getting a film camera if they only offer classes in
digital, or vice versa. It's hard to imagine the same classes would cover
both. If you're going to start with digital, you certainly don't need to
start with a digital SLR. They cost a lot more money than a beginner needs
to spend on his first digital camera.

> the only real appeal i see
> with digital is that any mistakes i make while learning won't cost me
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> i don't know how relevant dates are with film cameras, though i'm sure
> there have been some advances in 20 years.

Yes indeed. Also film cameras nowadays have rapidly diminishing appeal (to
put it mildly), except to some collectors.

> i do want to learn film
> photography, though mainly because the idea of developing my own photos
> holds some personal appeal.
>
> anyway - any suggestions?

Developing and printing black and white is fun and educational, though it's
educational mainly about a technology that just doesn't matter much anymore.
Processing color on the other hand (absent very expensive machinery) is a
real chore, and since digital color photography is both far easier *and*
offers much more creative control over the finished result than film does,
it's hard to see why anyone today would want to take up color photography on
film unless they had some special reason, like a need to make slides.

Since you already evidently have a computer, you already have at least
90-95% of a digital "darkroom." With digital you won't have an enlarger to
buy, or easels, or trays, or developing tanks, or chemicals. At first you
won't even need any software other than what comes with a digital camera --  
you can get more advanced software when you're ready for it. Almost any
decent inket printer will let you make good 8x10 or letter-sized prints, and
4x6 prints you can make for pennies at your local Wal-Mart machine or
whatever.

It's true that starting out with film (as most of us did) is likely to teach
you important things about exposure and composition. Most of that carries
over at least somewhat into digital also, though not all of it does in
exactly the same way. But the fact remains that whatever is important in
digital, you can learn in digital.

Jack
Andrew Venor - 24 Apr 2006 21:32 GMT
> I'm planning to take some photography classes in the fall at my local
> community college and i've been having trouble deciding whether to
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> thanks
> michael

I'd suggest that before making any decision you should check with the
instructor and see what type of camera he requires for the class.  If
the class requires a film SLR then the decision will be made for you.

BTW, the last time I took a photography class in collage about 10 years
ago I used a Canon FT-QL from 1966.  Which was fine, seeing that my
instructor wanted his students to control the focus, depth of field and
exposure manually so we would learn how to do it instead of just relying
on the cameras software.

ALV
Paul Furman - 25 Apr 2006 00:01 GMT
> I'm planning to take some photography classes in the fall at my local
> community college and i've been having trouble deciding whether to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> anyway - any suggestions?

If you want to go with film, get a medium format. That's a real
advantage and something that will continue to have benefits. For 35mm
digital is pretty much the way to go except maybe with B&W film. MF used
should be fairly reasonably priced. For digital get a cheap DSLR body
and a fast 35mm fixed focal length lens. The classic 50mm prime is like
a telephoto portrait lens on a cropped frame DSLR. The only thing you'll
really miss on a cheap DSLR is mirror lockup and the dim viewfinder but
a fast lens will help with that. A used 20D or 10D will give mirror lockup.
piperut - 25 Apr 2006 02:28 GMT
> > I'm planning to take some photography classes in the fall at my local
> > community college and i've been having trouble deciding whether to
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> really miss on a cheap DSLR is mirror lockup and the dim viewfinder but
> a fast lens will help with that. A used 20D or 10D will give mirror lockup.

Infrared is one area of photography that still has to be done with an
all manual camera, and you have to load it in a dark room or changing
bag.

There are some inexpensive MF cameras around.  Kiev has come a long way
with their quality issues from a few years back.  I think a basic Kiev
kit with an 80 mm lens is around $600 or so.  (Not that the OP wants to
go that route, but MF might be something to look into.)  The Kiev
lenses are really nice.  They bodies used to  be the sore spot, but
what I have read lately, they have fixed most of those problems.

I still have a kiev 88 with a few lenses.  I do take a few photos with
it now and then.
I use digital more and more, as it is quicker, and I bought a fisheye
for the digital.
However, once in a while there is something I am unable to take with
the digital, or I take something and I say... that really should be a
square photo...

Back to the OP question...

What is the make of camera and the lens mount?

Post that and we can go from there....

Also, OP, I would take that information and talk with the instructor of
the courses you are looking at taking.  See if the camera kit will do
the job.

There are reasons for learning on an all manual camera, and there are
reasons for learning on a digital camera.  This is going to be a trade
off that you will have to make.
Learning on an all manual camera is going to force you to learn the
basics quicker.  Learning on a digital is going to force you to learn
the digital darkroom quicker.

Or go back to the real basics... build yourself a pinhole camera and
take that to class!
:-)

roland
DoN. Nichols - 25 Apr 2006 04:26 GMT
According to piperut <rbehunin@alumni.weber.edu>:

    [ ... ]

> > If you want to go with film, get a medium format. That's a real
> > advantage and something that will continue to have benefits. For 35mm
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> all manual camera, and you have to load it in a dark room or changing
> bag.

    Hmm ... there are web sites detailing how to remove the IR
filter from the Nikon D70's sensor, so you can take IR photos.

    Of course, you probably still have to do a lot of chimping to
determine exposure manually, becasuse I suspect that re-calibrationg the
auto-exposure for IR would be non-trivial.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.
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          --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Skip M - 25 Apr 2006 12:29 GMT
> Infrared is one area of photography that still has to be done with an
> all manual camera, and you have to load it in a dark room or changing
> bag.

IR does not have to be done with a manual focus camera, as noted in other
places, there are digital cameras that will do IR, and an AF camera will do
it, as long as it doesn't have an IR film counter sensor, such as the Canon
1 series and EOS 10s.  Even if it does have an IR sensor, it only fogs a
couple of millimeters at the bottom of the film frame...
Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

piperut - 26 Apr 2006 04:53 GMT
> > Infrared is one area of photography that still has to be done with an
> > all manual camera, and you have to load it in a dark room or changing
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Skip Middleton
> http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Okay, I have not worked with IR photography since 1979.  I am not up to
speed on what you can do with digital IR.  However, the work I had to
do with IR photography fogged images was not an option.   What I was
doing with IR photography, and film... I really don't want to get into,
other than it was not an option to have fogged images.

I also don't want to play with the stuff again :-)

roland
C J Southern - 26 Apr 2006 05:27 GMT
> What I was
> doing with IR photography, and film... I really don't want to get into,
> other than it was not an option to have fogged images.

Hmmm - my guess is you're a private investigator and you were capturing
evidence of unfaithful husbands <you don't have to answer that!>
Skip M - 26 Apr 2006 05:53 GMT
>> > Infrared is one area of photography that still has to be done with an
>> > all manual camera, and you have to load it in a dark room or changing
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> roland

Well, part of my point was that there are/were AF film cameras that don't
fog the film, i.e, the Canon 1n, 1v and 10s.  There were others, but I don't
remember the designations.

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

J. Clarke - 26 Apr 2006 12:55 GMT
>> > Infrared is one area of photography that still has to be done with an
>> > all manual camera, and you have to load it in a dark room or changing
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> doing with IR photography, and film... I really don't want to get into,
> other than it was not an option to have fogged images.

Read what he wrote.  The fogging occurs only with certain models that have
an infrared sprocket-hole counter.  The fogging occurs only near the
sprocket holes and even then only on certain specific types of IR film.
This has absolutely _nothing_ to do with autofocus--it's a film-transport
issue, not a focus issue.  If fogging is not an option then use a different
film or a different model of camera.

It is not an issue at all with digital since no digital camera has a
sprocket hole counter of _any_ kind, let alone infrared.

For more on the fogging issue see <http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-ir/>.

For a good introduction to IR with digital cameras see
<http://www.wrotniak.com/photo/infrared/index.html>, follow the links at
the bottom for a great deal more information including discussion of which
cameras work particularly well for this purpose.

> I also don't want to play with the stuff again :-)
>
> roland

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(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

piperut - 27 Apr 2006 02:09 GMT
> >> > Infrared is one area of photography that still has to be done with an
> >> > all manual camera, and you have to load it in a dark room or changing
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Not close... but enough said already.

roland
 
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