Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / April 2006
Nikon D200 and Canon 350D/Rebel XT Noise Tests
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wayne - 04 Apr 2006 21:47 GMT Hi all,
I've placed on DIMi a new section and started it with noise tests on the Nikon D200 and Canon 350D/Rebel XT. There are also uncompressed TIFFs that you can download to judge noise and/or resolution issues for yourself. The new page is at <http:// www.dimagemaker.com/specials/cameras/camtests.php>
BTW the D200 and 350D tests were done using the same lens, a Tamron 18-200mm XT lens. More tests will be going up this week.
Also don't forget the DIMi competitions, there are now three of them running in April.
Cheers,
Wayne
Wayne J. Cosshall Publisher, The Digital ImageMaker, http://www.dimagemaker.com/ Blog and Podcast http://www.digitalimagemakerworld.com/ Personal art site http://www.artinyourface.com/
Paul Furman - 04 Apr 2006 23:54 GMT > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > yourself. The new page is at <http:// > www.dimagemaker.com/specials/cameras/camtests.php> The D200 samples are exposed a tad darker according to the histogram but the noise looks about the same to me.
> BTW the D200 and 350D tests were done using the same lens, a Tamron > 18-200mm XT lens. More tests will be going up this week. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Blog and Podcast http://www.digitalimagemakerworld.com/ > Personal art site http://www.artinyourface.com/ Thomas T. Veldhouse - 05 Apr 2006 13:49 GMT >> Hi all, >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The D200 samples are exposed a tad darker according to the histogram but > the noise looks about the same to me. Eh? I thought that the noise was considerable more noticable on the 350D, which is surprising to me considering reports elsewhere to the contrary.
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wayne - 05 Apr 2006 12:56 GMT Hi All,
My apologies but I have placed revised TIFF files for the Canon 350D test up on DIMi and in the article. I discovered a mistake in the creation of the original ones. The Nikon D200 tests were fine. The articles are at <http://www.dimagemaker.com/index.php> and the TIFF files are at <http://www.dimagemaker.com/specials/cameras/camtests.php>
Again my apologies, but I corrected them as soon as I realised the error.
Cheers,
Wayne
Wayne J. Cosshall Publisher, The Digital ImageMaker, http://www.dimagemaker.com/ Blog and Podcast http://www.digitalimagemakerworld.com/ Personal art site http://www.artinyourface.com/
Paul Furman - 05 Apr 2006 17:03 GMT > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Again my apologies, but I corrected them as soon as I realised the > error. I just checked the 800 ISO tiffs & the D200 is a lot darker than the rebel sample. It looks like you matched the zoom this time.
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 05 Apr 2006 19:23 GMT >> Again my apologies, but I corrected them as soon as I realised the >> error. > > I just checked the 800 ISO tiffs & the D200 is a lot darker than the > rebel sample. It looks like you matched the zoom this time. I would like to know the details of the conversion. Was the original in RAW format? How was the conversion handled? Were any settings applied in post processing (i.e. automatic exposure adjustments, levels, etc)?
Details that DO matter before noise can be discussed.
 Signature Thomas T. Veldhouse Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
JPS@no.komm - 06 Apr 2006 04:37 GMT >>> Again my apologies, but I corrected them as soon as I realised the >>> error.
>> I just checked the 800 ISO tiffs & the D200 is a lot darker than the >> rebel sample. It looks like you matched the zoom this time.
>I would like to know the details of the conversion. Was the original in RAW >format? How was the conversion handled? Were any settings applied in post >processing (i.e. automatic exposure adjustments, levels, etc)?
>Details that DO matter before noise can be discussed. This is one of the reasons I call for RAW comparisons (RAW, not conversions). The D200 image looks darker overall, but it also has more contrast. There is no difference in contrast in the RAW files; RAW files are records of photons captured, plus or minus noise. "Properly" converting RAW files distorts the capture in many ways; some colors have saturation boosted, which can boost noise; different transfer curves are used by default, noise reduction is applied; etc, etc. I am interested in the RAW capture, only. JPEGs are for people who like to trade quality for speed and efficient storage, but you can never see what the camera captured in the RAW data from its JPEG, or an arbitrary RAW conversion in software.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Jeremy Nixon - 06 Apr 2006 04:53 GMT > This is one of the reasons I call for RAW comparisons (RAW, not > conversions). The D200 image looks darker overall, but it also has more [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > saturation boosted, which can boost noise; different transfer curves are > used by default, noise reduction is applied; etc, etc. Would the *same* raw conversion be valid? (honest question, as in, "both images converted with ACR with these settings"?) The reason I ask is that most of us have no way to actually look at the raw data in the raw, so to speak.
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JPS@no.komm - 06 Apr 2006 05:12 GMT >Would the *same* raw conversion be valid? (honest question, as in, "both >images converted with ACR with these settings"?) The reason I ask is that >most of us have no way to actually look at the raw data in the raw, so to >speak. I don't think such a beast exists. Every RAW format has information about how the information should be processed, and/or the developer deals with different cameras in different ways.
You just load the RAW into IRIS, subtract the blackpoint (which you may have to determine from a blackframe at the same ISO), select "convert a CFA image" (after choosing the camera from preferences, or one with the same CFA pattern) from the menu, and then white-balance it. Do the same with another camera at the same f-stop and aperture, scale so both are equally bright, and you have as equal a comparison as you're going to get. You need a detailed subject, of course, if you want to see the visibility of detail through the noise, as cameras differ in AA filter strength.
For blackframe noise, you just load the file and scale both the same in the output. It is convenient to add or subtract an offset to get the average value of noise the same. For example, most Nikons have black as 0; most Canons have black at 126 to 256. The Canon format has a slight benefit for binning, as binning a blackfframe with both positive and negative noise brings black closer to true black than a mix of half zeros and half positive numbers do (it also helps for removing banding).
If it sounds complicated, it's only because it's unfamiliar.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Jeremy Nixon - 06 Apr 2006 11:59 GMT > I don't think such a beast exists. Every RAW format has information > about how the information should be processed, and/or the developer > deals with different cameras in different ways. Yes, I think you must be right.
> You just load the RAW into IRIS, Unfortunately, IRIS is Windows-only, so not terribly relevant.
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JPS@no.komm - 06 Apr 2006 22:02 GMT >> You just load the RAW into IRIS,
>Unfortunately, IRIS is Windows-only, so not terribly relevant. Not terribly relevant to a minority?
Uncompressed DNGs contain RAW bitmaps; the only problem is that if you load them into PS as ".raw" (supplying the correct parameters), the 16-bit mode of photoshop will divide the data by two for its "15-bit +1" format. They would need to be run through a program that doubles their values in order to avoid PS posterization. PS doesn't have an explicit bayer interpolation routine either, so you'd have to separate the colors, upsample them and shift them back to their bayer centers with the offset filter (or have a plugin that does this).
I'm sure a Windows computer could be found for the tests, though.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Jeremy Nixon - 06 Apr 2006 22:34 GMT > I'm sure a Windows computer could be found for the tests, though. Not sure why anyone would want to.
More ideal would be an output option for dcraw, but the closest thing I can see is the -d option. Unfortunately, despite the fact that I write code for a living, I know nothing about image processing code, so I doubt I could add such a thing.
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JPS@no.komm - 06 Apr 2006 22:42 GMT >> I'm sure a Windows computer could be found for the tests, though.
>Not sure why anyone would want to.
>More ideal would be an output option for dcraw, but the closest thing I can >see is the -d option. Unfortunately, despite the fact that I write code >for a living, I know nothing about image processing code, so I doubt I >could add such a thing. DCRAW code is getting more unreadable, every month, IMO.
None of its ouput options give an accurate RAW output. IRIS is based on DCRAW, but IRIS hijacks the RAW data before some data mutilation and the write stage. Should be a way to alter DCRAW to output a simply-interpolated TIFF of the RAW data (doubled for PS, of course).
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< wayne - 07 Apr 2006 02:47 GMT Hi Guys,
There is another question here, which is how meaningful is a 'correct' but generally unobtainable test result compared to a realistic one which most people can get with the software they have? I'll go and look at the more esoteric software route, whether Mac or PC, hell I could even write some code, as writing imaging software is part of what I've done for the last 25 years, but what would be the point if the result was something that no-one could actually see in the software they use.
Guidance required :)
Cheers,
Wayne
Wayne J. Cosshall Publisher, The Digital ImageMaker, http://www.dimagemaker.com/ Blog and Podcast http://www.digitalimagemakerworld.com/ Personal art site http://www.artinyourface.com/
Paul Furman - 07 Apr 2006 03:56 GMT > Hi Guys, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Guidance required :) I push exposures with PS ACR fairly often to recover highlights & shadows, often doing two exposures & mask them together so the push on one of those can be really extreme, enough to show the itty bitty losses when it's amplified in PS like that, and printed to 13x19". Roger Clark uses another obscure high-bit astronomer's software to convert RAW files of tricky action wildlife shots into big poster size prints.
Iris is astronomer's software also and I've been tinkering with it, trying to figure it out. I'll summarize what I've been able to make of it, maybe JPS will clarify where I'm lost.
http://astrosurf.com/buil/us/iris/iris.htm
Click the camera icon to set your camera model before loading. Select linear (I think this makes the image appear too dark, not sure). You can set the WB on this dialogue box with RGB values but I have no idea how to determine the right numbers!
File menu > Settings to set the 'Working Path' where files will be saved out to & opened from.
File > Load Raw brings up the RAW file in grainy B&W bayer pattern grey scale, zoom in to see the RGB pattern in grey.
The Threshold dialogue should be visible, set the top box to 4095 & the bottom to 0. For astronomy work, you can figure out a dark frame subtraction thing to set zero higher in some cases but I'll ignore that for now. You can fiddle with these for the proper look of brighness & contrast but since we're doing a comparison of raw values, don't worry if it looks dark, that's the linear conversion. I have no clue what color space this works in (ie sRGB) or how to control that.
Wave the cursor around & in the lower right status bar you see the raw values from 0-4095 so you can see here if there is anything at all to be recovered in highlights & shadows. I think you can split the image into RG&B files to see which channel is blown or not. This is all before the whole thing gets muddied up by merging the bayer pattern RGB.
From the Digital Photo menu select 'Convert a CFA image' to interpolate the RGB bayer pattern into a normal color image. It probably looks too green because there's twice the green pixels... I have no idea how to correct this meaningfully, see WB comments above. From the Digital Photo menu select 'RGB Balance' if you want to try... no undo that I can see so it's frustrating.
From there just save as a tif & when opening in photoshop, sRGB seems as good as any color space to assign. Then I do a levels adjustment to set the brightness of the middle gamma level & make it look like a normal exposure.
I probably got it all messed up but you won't find a more straightforward explanation <g>. Most of the tutorial info on the web site is geared toward processing multiple exposures of the same scene for astronomy stuff and will make no sense to a regular photographer.
For your comparison photos, it seems important that they be comparable exposures & I see a significant difference in brightness & contrast. A brighter exposure will have less noise and more blown shadows. The histogram on the camera is jpeg not raw but probably close enough to get things real close. The two cameras histograms should have the hump placed in the same spot & not be going off either side more than the other to get comparable exposures. If that takes a +.3EC or -.3EC that's worth noting but the exposures need to be the same.
I'm not criticising your test more than any other, it is *really difficult* to do fairly (meaningfully) and I appreciate that you used the same lens, I think zooming to match field of view (for the pixels) works better now, just a slightly different range on the lens. I assume the full image is larger on the D200 though so it might be fairer to use the same zoom and enlarge the *MP version up to 10MP.
JPS@no.komm - 07 Apr 2006 04:11 GMT >Select >linear (I think this makes the image appear too dark, not sure). That only affects how the "black space" in each color channel is interpolated, when coloring the image.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< JPS@no.komm - 07 Apr 2006 04:49 GMT >You can >set the WB on this dialogue box with RGB values but I have no idea how >to determine the right numbers! That slider is a bit slow to adjust in realtime; the program is broad in scope but simple in implementation - it seems to adjust a working copy of the entire image before updating, rather than updating the display on the fly.
>File menu > Settings to set the 'Working Path' where files will be saved >out to & opened from. I've never noticed that.
>File > Load Raw brings up the RAW file in grainy B&W bayer pattern grey >scale, zoom in to see the RGB pattern in grey. Yeah, those look very noisy, because of the different sensitivities and levels of colors. They can look like checkerboards. You get a nice 50% greycale, however, if you use "binning" (2x) from the geometry menu, and the checkboard goes away and you wind up with a 1/4x MP, 13-bit greyscale without the grid.
>The Threshold dialogue should be visible, set the top box to 4095 & the >bottom to 0. For astronomy work, you can figure out a dark frame [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >if it looks dark, that's the linear conversion. I have no clue what >color space this works in (ie sRGB) or how to control that. Those are just literal values from the channels, displayed on your monitor. They have a color space, but are not treated as if they do; they are just treated as if they are in the colorspace of your system.
>Wave the cursor around & in the lower right status bar you see the raw >values from 0-4095 so you can see here if there is anything at all to be >recovered in highlights & shadows. I think you can split the image into >RG&B files to see which channel is blown or not. This is all before the >whole thing gets muddied up by merging the bayer pattern RGB. Well, if you use the "linear" option you mentioned in the beginning of your post, all interpolated color pixels will be within the range of the original RAW pixels. It's not the most aesthetically pleasing option, but the most honest one.
> From the Digital Photo menu select 'Convert a CFA image' to interpolate >the RGB bayer pattern into a normal color image. It probably looks too >green because there's twice the green pixels... That's what a lot of people assume, but once you do the color conversion, the amount of pixels of any given color has *NO* effect on color balance at all. The image is green because that is what the camera is really seeing - the green pixels let more light through. For a white subject in white light, most DSLRs let about a stop more light through the green filters than the red ones, and the blue falls somewhere in-between. The natural light that the camera wants to see is somewhere in the magenta-ish purple range. Daylight needs to be white-balanced quite heavily!
>I have no idea how to >correct this meaningfully, see WB comments above. From the Digital Photo >menu select 'RGB Balance' if you want to try... no undo that I can see >so it's frustrating. That seems to be something that is used upon loading. Only useful if you use the same camera all the time, and want to WB for one specific light color all the time.
> From there just save as a tif & when opening in photoshop, sRGB seems >as good as any color space to assign. Then I do a levels adjustment to >set the brightness of the middle gamma level & make it look like a >normal exposure.
>I probably got it all messed up but you won't find a more >straightforward explanation <g>. Most of the tutorial info on the web >site is geared toward processing multiple exposures of the same scene >for astronomy stuff and will make no sense to a regular photographer.
>For your comparison photos, it seems important that they be comparable >exposures & I see a significant difference in brightness & contrast. A [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >other to get comparable exposures. If that takes a +.3EC or -.3EC that's >worth noting but the exposures need to be the same. There's really 3 different ways of measuring noise between two cameras at an ISO:
1) by camera's metering
2) by external metering (same real exposure - f-stop and shutter speed, on both)
3) Target the same RAW levels (adjusting for blackpoint) in the images.
All three are probably different in most cases. Without RAW data, you can't even begin to attempt #3. #3 is where dynamic range and exposure latitude are happening.
Again, about blackpoint - your Nikon probably has a blackpoint of 0, but other cameras may have black at another RAW value, as the digitizer in the camera leaves the readout bias in the signal (all Canons do this, AFAIK; on the 10D, it varied with exposure time, temperature, and ISO - on the 20D it is always about RAW level 128). With the 20D, as an example, you can subtract 128 from the image upon loading, or you can see the image blackpointed by putting the bottom threshold slider at 128; it all depends on how you want to work. Not subtracting first is good if you're going to do any binning - positive/negative noise bins more cleanly than noise that is half zeros, and half positive numbers, as is the case in the extreme shadows when the RAW data is already blackpointed in the camera. Binning by 2x, of course, means that the blackpoint has quadrupled.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< JPS@no.komm - 07 Apr 2006 04:55 GMT >That slider is a bit slow to adjust in realtime; the program is broad in >scope but simple in implementation - it seems to adjust a working copy >of the entire image before updating, rather than updating the display on >the fly. I forgot to mention the easier way - make sure that the image is in x1 zoom, and draw a rectangle with the mouse on a neutral color (grey or white). Then, open the command mode window, and type "white". The red and green channels of the entire image will be scaled to make the rectangle average white or grey. If you have a camera like the Canon and you have not subtracted the blackpoint, there will be a color cast in the shadows.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 07 Apr 2006 20:09 GMT >>File > Load Raw brings up the RAW file in grainy B&W bayer pattern grey >>scale, zoom in to see the RGB pattern in grey. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the checkboard goes away and you wind up with a 1/4x MP, 13-bit > greyscale without the grid. Interesting, I saw binning on the camera dialogue but that doesn't do anything. Is this half/size b&W of any value though or just kind of a curiosity?
>>The Threshold dialogue should be visible, set the top box to 4095 & the >>bottom to 0. For astronomy work, you can figure out a dark frame [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > monitor. They have a color space, but are not treated as if they do; > they are just treated as if they are in the colorspace of your system. This is interesting for analyzing the data but how do I get Iris to apply a proper gamma & take the linear aspect out? I see in the view menu: 'Logarithm, Equalization and Modified Equalization' but are those really desirable? Similar to Photoshop's Image > Adjust > Equalize, which I believe sort of flattens images by making a flat histogram.
>>Wave the cursor around & in the lower right status bar you see the raw >>values from 0-4095 so you can see here if there is anything at all to be [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > original RAW pixels. It's not the most aesthetically pleasing option, > but the most honest one. OK I see now that the 'median' and 'gradient' look a little better once doing the CFA conversion. But still doesn't look normal and I don't understand what exactly those do.
>>From the Digital Photo menu select 'Convert a CFA image' to interpolate >>the RGB bayer pattern into a normal color image. It probably looks too [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > somewhere in the magenta-ish purple range. Daylight needs to be > white-balanced quite heavily! Any idea what proper RGB WB values should be? In your other post you said: "I forgot to mention the easier way - make sure that the image is in x1 zoom, and draw a rectangle with the mouse on a neutral color (grey or white). Then, open the command mode window, and type "white". The red and green channels of the entire image will be scaled to make the rectangle average white or grey. If you have a camera like the Canon and you have not subtracted the blackpoint, there will be a color cast in the shadows." So I guess that's it, shoot a grey card... but there ought to be some standard settings for daylight, shade, etc.
>>From there just save as a tif & when opening in photoshop, sRGB seems >>as good as any color space to assign. Then I do a levels adjustment to >>set the brightness of the middle gamma level & make it look like a >>normal exposure. There must be some way to assign a color space though. It has to be something.
> Again, about blackpoint - your Nikon probably has a blackpoint of 0, but Yes when I adjust threshold for 0-10 or 0-5 there is a little bit showing.
> other cameras may have black at another RAW value, as the digitizer in > the camera leaves the readout bias in the signal (all Canons do this, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > blackpointed in the camera. Binning by 2x, of course, means that the > blackpoint has quadrupled. I'm working on a summary from this as a sort of FAQ tutorial for non-astro photogs, this is nothing fancy: http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Misc/photography/iris -mostly notes to myself for reference.
JPS@no.komm - 07 Apr 2006 22:08 GMT >Interesting, I saw binning on the camera dialogue but that doesn't do >anything. Nothing on that page does anything to your loaded NEFs except the rectangle at the bottom. The rest is for controlling some other devices from the computer.
>Is this half/size b&W of any value though or just kind of a >curiosity? The binning in the "Geometry" menu will add every 2x2, 3x3, or 4x4 tile of pixels, etc, into one pixel, reducing the image size accordingly. It results in a lower-res image with less noise. From your 6MP camera, a 2x2 binning of a greyscale RAW will give a beautiful 1.5MP, 14-bit greyscale image (the max value becomes 16,535, of course).
You can bin a color image as well. Binning should work very well with the D70, I think, as it has more random than banding noise visible. Banding does not reduce with binning or downsampling the way random noise does.
>This is interesting for analyzing the data but how do I get Iris to >apply a proper gamma & take the linear aspect out? I see in the view >menu: 'Logarithm, Equalization and Modified Equalization' but are those >really desirable? Similar to Photoshop's Image > Adjust > Equalize, >which I believe sort of flattens images by making a flat histogram. If the image is already color, "Gamma" appears in the "View" menu. If for some reason you want to see the checkered, greyscale RAW with gamma, you have to convert 16-bit to 48-bit in the "Digital camera" menu, then gamma will appear, but you have to adjust all three channels separately, unfortunately.
>OK I see now that the 'median' and 'gradient' look a little better once >doing the CFA conversion. But still doesn't look normal and I don't >understand what exactly those do. None of them will look normal, because they do not "demosaic" in the traditional sense; they only interpolate the three color planes separately. No attempt is made to find the luminance of each pixel.
>Any idea what proper RGB WB values should be? That depends on the camera and the light, and is often subjective. A good starting value for most cameras for daylight would be R=1.9, G=1.0, B=1.4.
>In your other post you said: >"I forgot to mention the easier way - make sure that the image is in x1 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >So I guess that's it, shoot a grey card... but there ought to be some >standard settings for daylight, shade, etc. It's probably in French on the website!
>>>From there just save as a tif & when opening in photoshop, sRGB seems >>>as good as any color space to assign. Then I do a levels adjustment to >>>set the brightness of the middle gamma level & make it look like a >>>normal exposure.
>There must be some way to assign a color space though. It has to be >something. No; it's meaningless in this context. This is a RAW viewer, not a RAW converter. The program knows *nothing* about the color characteristics of the CFA; all it knows is the CFA pattern of the camera you select. The red, green and blue on your monitor are not the red, green, and blue of the CFA, exactly. You don't use this software to get pretty color pictures (although it can make some very nice B&W images).
You can, of course, adjust hue and saturation in PS to get a nice looking color image, especially if you downsample the color image first so that the interpolation is nullified.
>> Again, about blackpoint - your Nikon probably has a blackpoint of 0, but > >Yes when I adjust threshold for 0-10 or 0-5 there is a little bit showing. If the blackpoint were higher than that, you'd still see something in a dark image, as a negative; there is image below the blackpoint in a Canon, or any camera that doesn't have a zero blackpoint!
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 08 Apr 2006 21:01 GMT I just noticed it doesn't open DNG files... bummer.
> Nothing on [the camera] page does anything to your loaded NEFs except the > rectangle at the bottom. The rest is for controlling some other devices > from the computer. Ah, remote control, thanks.
>>This is interesting for analyzing the data but how do I get Iris to >>apply a proper gamma & take the linear aspect out? I see in the view [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > gamma will appear, but you have to adjust all three channels separately, > unfortunately. Hmm, I getting something normal looking with gamma around 3.
>>OK I see now that the 'median' and 'gradient' look a little better once >>doing the CFA conversion. But still doesn't look normal and I don't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > traditional sense; they only interpolate the three color planes > separately. No attempt is made to find the luminance of each pixel. Hmm, so it gets a tad more detail & less noise for astronomy type work but is just not suited to color photography? Again I wonder what the use is then.
>>Any idea what proper RGB WB values should be? > > That depends on the camera and the light, and is often subjective. A > good starting value for most cameras for daylight would be R=1.9, G=1.0, > B=1.4. Yeah that got me in the ballpark.
>>>>From there just save as a tif & when opening in photoshop, sRGB seems >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > of the CFA, exactly. You don't use this software to get pretty color > pictures (although it can make some very nice B&W images). The astronomers do though right? I can twiddle WB till the colors are about right & tag it sRGB since that's the color space of my monitor but I guess what I need to do is apply a curve to it, to remove the linear nature of the capture. Adjusting gamma approximates this but very crudely compared to what I imagine the correct procedure would be. What's more the gamma adjustment in Iris has no impact on the TIF I save opened in PS, all the data is still crammed over in the far left of the histogram. I can adjust levels in PS but it's posterizing severely & the whole point is to expand into the desired range before chopping 4095 down to 255, right? How do I do that? What I see in photoshop is everything crammed into 0-40 (out of 0-255) in levels.
When I was messing with DCRAW, I came on the advice to use the results only as b&w (luminance) and use a regular conversion for the color (chrominance). This can work OK but I suspect the mismatching causes some blur and that may lose the advantage. The reason is DCRAW (at least older versions) does a less aggressive demosaicing which leaves some crazy looking color 'noise' artifacts, but supposedly it produces a sharper luminance image although it might show moire quicker.
> You can, of course, adjust hue and saturation in PS to get a nice > looking color image, especially if you downsample the color image first [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > dark image, as a negative; there is image below the blackpoint in a > Canon, or any camera that doesn't have a zero blackpoint! What I see is not negative. If I set the range 0-5 I see a few black flecks in the darkest part of the image.
Paul Furman - 08 Apr 2006 21:25 GMT >>> Any idea what proper RGB WB values should be? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yeah that got me in the ballpark. Hmm, it creates a magenta color cast on blown out highlights so this doesn't really work properly. What was 4095 in all chanels becomes r7780 b5733.
JPS@no.komm - 08 Apr 2006 23:06 GMT >>>> Any idea what proper RGB WB values should be? >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >doesn't really work properly. What was 4095 in all chanels becomes r7780 >b5733. Of course it does. This is *not* a RAW converter. Blown out highlights ARE magenta when balanced for daylight.
If you WB for tungsten with R=1.1 G=1.0 B=3.5, then the blown highlights will be blue.
It is mathematically impossible to WB a RAW image, maintain all highlights, and have white clipping. The red and blue have to be scaled, and usually at least one of them is scaled greater than 4095 for the clipping point.
A RAW converter would either clip everything at 4095 (at about 2100-2500 by default, actually), for white clipping, throwing away highlights, render these off colors that you see, or use any pixel that has neighbors of other colors that are clipped as greyscale highlights.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 08 Apr 2006 23:53 GMT >>Hmm, it creates a magenta color cast on blown out highlights so this >>doesn't really work properly. What was 4095 in all chanels becomes r7780 >>b5733. > > Of course it does. Yeah well I see what you mean about simple math.
> It is mathematically impossible to WB a RAW image, maintain all > highlights, and have white clipping. The red and blue have to be [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > render these off colors that you see, or use any pixel that has > neighbors of other colors that are clipped as greyscale highlights. OK so a RAW *converter* does a lot more complicated math.
Why does Iris give me tifs with everything jammed to the left of the histogram? The threshold has no effect, equalization works if I do it before CFA but it's an unnatural distribution and is posterized. I ought to be able to output clipped down to the shadows (or up to the highlights) to get a luminance layer to improve parts of the original but I can't get any useful output into photoshop.
JPS@no.komm - 09 Apr 2006 01:42 GMT >Why does Iris give me tifs with everything jammed to the left of the >histogram? So you can add images in IRIS, or use math to raise the levels.
PS quantizes 16-bit images to 15-bit, so you have to at least double the RAW values in IRIS before saving a TIFF, to avoid posterization. Multiplying by 8 would make you use full scale in IRIS (up to 32K), but it is still only half-histogram in PS. DCRAW does something similar by default.
>The threshold has no effect, equalization works if I do it >before CFA but it's an unnatural distribution and is posterized. Why are you doing equalization or logarithm?
>I ought >to be able to output clipped down to the shadows (or up to the >highlights) to get a luminance layer to improve parts of the original >but I can't get any useful output into photoshop. Like I said, you can multiply the data first in IRIS. IRIS goes from -32768 to 32767 or so. The 0 through 32767 part becomes TIFF (the negative part does too, but as positive, so if anything is negative it should be clipped first.
For .BMP, what is output is exactly what IRIS is displaying (what's between the threshold values, stretched or shrunk to 0 to 255).
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 09 Apr 2006 03:32 GMT >>Why does Iris give me tifs with everything jammed to the left of the >>histogram? > > So you can add images in IRIS, or use math to raise the levels. Processing menu > Multiply
So the threshold slider is just for screen display.
> PS quantizes 16-bit images to 15-bit, so you have to at least double the > RAW values in IRIS before saving a TIFF, to avoid posterization. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Why are you doing equalization or logarithm? I'd rather apply curves, I'm trying to emphasize certain parts of the dynamic range but I can't anywhere close to normal.
>>I ought >>to be able to output clipped down to the shadows (or up to the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Like I said, you can multiply the data first in IRIS. IRIS goes from > -32768 to 32767 or so. The 0 through 32767 part becomes TIFF OK that improves things a little. I get a histogram mostly in shadows with a long shallow taper out into the blown highlights. The exposure is mostly underexposed with a nearly blown sky in 1/8th of the frame. I can apply curves to that in PS to get the look I want but still every part of it is posterized when you zoom in.
>(the > negative part does too, but as positive, so if anything is negative it > should be clipped first. > > For .BMP, what is output is exactly what IRIS is displaying (what's > between the threshold values, stretched or shrunk to 0 to 255). Ah that's where the threshold settings can be used.
JPS@no.komm - 09 Apr 2006 14:36 GMT >Processing menu > Multiply
>So the threshold slider is just for screen display. Yes, it selects the image range that maps to 0 and 255 on the screen (and in the output BMPs).
>I'd rather apply curves, I'm trying to emphasize certain parts of the >dynamic range but I can't anywhere close to normal. You can't apply complex curves that resemble human vision with extended highlight range in IRIS. Part of the problem is that you have te top slider set to 4095; unless your image is intentionally "overexposed", you will lose your shadows with a normal gamma of 2.2. To get the whole range in so that the top stop is for "extra bright" stuff like specular highlights, the top slider should be set down in the 2100 to 2500 range. IRIS does not let you crush the highlights only, for instance. It is mathematically consistent across the range with everything it does to change the curves.
You need to save a file and work in another program to get knees and shoulders and such.
>OK that improves things a little. I get a histogram mostly in shadows >with a long shallow taper out into the blown highlights. The exposure is >mostly underexposed with a nearly blown sky in 1/8th of the frame. I can >apply curves to that in PS to get the look I want but still every part >of it is posterized when you zoom in. That doesn't happen here. Perhaps you are doing something wrong, or perhaps the D70 data itself is posterized, and RAW converters typically add dithering noise to it. You are loading the TIFFs into PS at 16-bit?
In IRIS, when the NEF is still greyscale, issue the command "split_cfa a b c d" That will split the data into four smaller images, based on the original pixel's position in the bayer matrix. One of them will be left onscreen, and the others will be on disk. With the one that is left onscreen, open a histogram and zoom into the top end of the range where the highest pixel values are, and see if there is a comb effect. If you want to load the others, type "load a" "load b", etc. I believe, from memory that the pattern is like this:
bd ac
from the upper left of the sensor. To tell for sure, and what it means for your camera, load a NEF of something white in white light. The two brightest split images for the white will be green, and the darkest one, the red.
This is the only way I know of to do pure statistics and histograms on the color channels in IRIS. Doing them on the color images includes non-native, interpolated pixels.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 09 Apr 2006 21:34 GMT >>Processing menu > Multiply > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > You need to save a file and work in another program to get knees and > shoulders and such. Ah but the other programs have much less bit depth so the shadows are a mess. I tried an experiment with Multiply and Add to cut the image into two versions, one for the main mass of visible data at 0-6500 and another from 6500 to 32767, then merged them together with the highlights as 'darken' mode in PS and it sort of does what I want although the highlight file has these awful dark rings at the point where it cuts off.
Makes me realize you can only go so far. Even using curves, it takes some strange shaped terraced curves & that leaves other areas lacking contrast.
>>OK that improves things a little. I get a histogram mostly in shadows >>with a long shallow taper out into the blown highlights. The exposure is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > perhaps the D70 data itself is posterized, and RAW converters typically > add dithering noise to it. You are loading the TIFFs into PS at 16-bit? Yes. I'm not clear about bit depth though: 0-255 = 8 bit (aka 24 bit = 8x3 rgb) 0-255 = 8 bit (aka 32 bit = 8x4 cmyk) 0-(4,095?) = 12 bit (aka 36 bit = 12x3 rgb) 0-32,767 = ? 0-65,536 = 16 bit (aka 48 bit = 16x3 rgb) 0-65,536 = 16 bit (aka 64 bit = 16x4 cmyk) 0-( ? ) = 16 bit (aka 48 bit = 16x3 rgb)
partly from: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/bit-depth.shtml
and Roger Clark: http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/raw.converter.shadow.detail/ "Photoshop does 15-bit math even when running on 32 bit files... most editing functions do not work in Photoshop in 32 bit mode [8 bit cmyk?] ...ImagesPlus [does] 64-bit floating point processing." http://www.mlunsold.com/ -Read and write 8, 16, and 32 bit integer or 32 bit float RAW images -Read and write 8, 16, and 32 bit integer or 32 bit float and 64 bit double FITS -RGB no CMYK
> In IRIS, when the NEF is still greyscale, issue the command "split_cfa a > b c d" That will split the data into four smaller images, based on the For my same test photo, I get green as the two matched shortest histograms, red is the tallest: a green b red c blue d green
> original pixel's position in the bayer matrix. One of them will be left > onscreen, and the others will be on disk. With the one that is left [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the color channels in IRIS. Doing them on the color images includes > non-native, interpolated pixels. JPS@no.komm - 10 Apr 2006 03:59 GMT >Ah but the other programs have much less bit depth so the shadows are a >mess. I tried an experiment with Multiply and Add to cut the image into [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >although the highlight file has these awful dark rings at the point >where it cuts off. I have no idea what you're dealing with here; I don't have any problems loading the TIFFs from IRIS into PS; there's no posterization to speak of, as long as you multiply by 2.
Do you actually go *through* with the levels or curves in PS? They show posterized results in the preview.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 10 Apr 2006 21:24 GMT >>Ah but the other programs have much less bit depth so the shadows are a >>mess. I tried an experiment with Multiply and Add to cut the image into [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Do you actually go *through* with the levels or curves in PS? They show > posterized results in the preview. You know, I did actually get good results from the shadow side of that experiment described above. Maybe a little cleaner than PS ACR, but something really funny happened to the highlight half of the image: <http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Misc/photography/iris/screenshot&PG=1&PIC=1> In the histogram, the lump on the right is all those ghost tones: <http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Misc/photography/iris/screenshot> -I tried saving out a bmp & that worked as expected, though I didn't manage to get any better than PS ACR could provide.
FWIW I downloaded the ImagePlus demo and am getting awful results from that too... must be the learning curve <g> or my wooden head. There's about a dozen ways to adjust levels/gamma/curves & I have no idea what the difference is.
JPS@no.komm - 11 Apr 2006 04:07 GMT
>> I have no idea what you're dealing with here; I don't have any problems >> loading the TIFFs from IRIS into PS; there's no posterization to speak [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >-I tried saving out a bmp & that worked as expected, though I didn't >manage to get any better than PS ACR could provide. What is "splitting into two versions"? Perhaps you are making incorrect assumptions about how image math works. I get no such artifacts. The only artifacts I got was when I left negative numbers in IRIS before saving as TIFF. Negative numbers in IRIS become postive numbers in TIFF, with 65,536 added to them.
With all this weird stuff you're doing, I'm not surprised you are getting weird results. The numbers are between 0 and 4095 before you multiply by 8? If you've white-balanced, you can't multiply by eight, unless the image was under-exposed.
>FWIW I downloaded the ImagePlus demo and am getting awful results from >that too... The demo does RAW now? When I downloaded it, the RAW capability was disabled for the demo.
>must be the learning curve <g> or my wooden head. There's >about a dozen ways to adjust levels/gamma/curves & I have no idea what >the difference is.  Signature
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 11 Apr 2006 04:34 GMT >>You know, I did actually get good results from the shadow side of that >>experiment described above. Maybe a little cleaner than PS ACR, but [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What is "splitting into two versions"? The test image is an underexposed backlit building with bright sky. -Load Raw -Convert CFA -Multiply by 8 -no white balance -View Histogram & note that it's full & the main lump is left of 6,500 -Add 6500 to clip the highlight shoulder off & save out a tiff
-re-open, CFA & 8x -Subtract 6500 to clip all but the highlights -Check histogram customized to show negative values and there are none showing but maybe they are in there, just not in the histogram. Hmm, this is probably my problem but the clipping functions didn't make sense or do anything that I could see. -Multiply x1.2 to fill the gamut from 2600-32767
I tried again to clip minimum old: -32767 new: 0 No difference, same ghosts & color fringes.
> Perhaps you are making incorrect > assumptions about how image math works. I get no such artifacts. The [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > The demo does RAW now? When I downloaded it, the RAW capability was > disabled for the demo. Yeah but also doesn't load DNGs damnit. It puts an x across any image so make a copy first.
>>must be the learning curve <g> or my wooden head. There's >>about a dozen ways to adjust levels/gamma/curves & I have no idea what >>the difference is. I'm real good with photoshop but this has lots of unfamiliar adjustments. If you buy the full version it comes with video tutorials.
JPS@no.komm - 11 Apr 2006 22:02 GMT >The test image is an underexposed backlit building with bright sky. >-Load Raw [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >new: 0 >No difference, same ghosts & color fringes. Old: 0 New: 0
clips at 0.
What is all this for? There's nothing wrong with a single TIFF output.
BTW. if you're going to multiply by 8, better to do the color interpolation afterward - you have more precision (15-bit) to interpolate in.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 12 Apr 2006 00:43 GMT >>The test image is an underexposed backlit building with bright sky. >>-View Histogram & note that it's full & the main lump is left of 6,500 [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > What is all this for? There's nothing wrong with a single TIFF output. I was getting posterizing with the whole image in a 16 bit tif. The whole point of working with raw is to make the changes on the original data before compressing it. I'm still not entirely clear about bit depth though I don't think 16 bit tiffs can hold linear raw without loss.
So in the end, I did get an improvement with boosting shadows over ACR but highlights seem worse: <http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Misc/photography/iris/screenshot>
> BTW. if you're going to multiply by 8, better to do the color > interpolation afterward - you have more precision (15-bit) to > interpolate in. OK that makes sense. Here's a repeat of what I had above:
0-255 = 8 bit (aka 24 bit = 8x3 rgb) 0-255 = 8 bit (aka 32 bit = 8x4 cmyk) 0-(4,095?) = 12 bit (aka 36 bit = 12x3 rgb) 0-32,767 = ? 0-65,536 = 16 bit (aka 48 bit = 16x3 rgb) 0-65,536 = 16 bit (aka 64 bit = 16x4 cmyk) 0-( ? ) = 16 bit (aka 48 bit = 16x3 rgb)
partly from: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/bit-depth.shtml
and Roger Clark: http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/raw.converter.shadow.detail/ "Photoshop does 15-bit math even when running on 32 bit files... most editing functions do not work in Photoshop in 32 bit mode [8 bit cmyk?] ...ImagesPlus [does] 64-bit floating point processing." http://www.mlunsold.com/ -Read and write 8, 16, and 32 bit integer or 32 bit float RAW images -Read and write 8, 16, and 32 bit integer or 32 bit float and 64 bit double FITS -RGB no CMYK
Paul Furman - 12 Apr 2006 00:48 GMT >>> -re-open, CFA & 8x >>> -Subtract 6500 to clip all but the highlights [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> clips at 0. Thanks, that did work, it also made the file shrink from 25MB to about 2MB!
JPS@no.komm - 12 Apr 2006 04:01 GMT >I was getting posterizing with the whole image in a 16 bit tif. The >whole point of working with raw is to make the changes on the original >data before compressing it. I'm still not entirely clear about bit depth >though I don't think 16 bit tiffs can hold linear raw without loss. I really have no idea what you're talking about, or what you're trying to do.
If you don't WB, the TIFF you save is the literal RAW data after interpolating full RGB for the pixels. Nothing you could call loss. If you multiply by 8 before doing the RGB interpolation, and the color balance, then you have more levels than the RAW did. Rounding errors will be extremely small, even if you change the gamma in PS.
There is nothing you can do to improve on this by mutilating the RAW data in IRIS. You can't find what isn't there; you can only fabricate.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 12 Apr 2006 06:51 GMT >>I was getting posterizing with the whole image in a 16 bit tif. The >>whole point of working with raw is to make the changes on the original [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I really have no idea what you're talking about, or what you're trying > to do. Ha, I don't know what you're talking about or doing with this program either! But it's interesting and I'm learning a lot.
: - )
> If you don't WB, the TIFF you save is the literal RAW data after > interpolating full RGB for the pixels. Nothing you could call loss. If [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > There is nothing you can do to improve on this by mutilating the RAW > data in IRIS. You can't find what isn't there; you can only fabricate. OK I see now that the posterizing problem was left over from before I knew to multiply by 8 and I see now that a 16 bit tiff does indeed include *all* the information in the RAW file. I was under the impression that the manipulations done in a raw converter were happening at some higher level and were beyond what photoshop alone could accomplish and Iris would give similar access. But if I zero out all the ACR settings (exposure, brightness, shadows, saturation, contrast) I end up with something similar to what Iris produces, very dark but not as far crammed into the shadows as Iris. The Iris TIF is 26MB, the photoshop tif is 35MB.
So when I was needing to recover shadows & highlights before I would do two raw conversions & mask them together in layers but I see now that it's possible to load the uncorrupted raw data with all the sliders zeroed out & adjust with curves as needed right in photoshop. It's somewhat 'corrupted' by being white balanced but I can't get decent colors from Iris anyways and somewhat corrupted in the correction for linear/logarithmic but that's got to happen if you want it to look anywhere near normal.
Here's another take on the math for bit depth: (still plenty confused though)
0-255 = 8 bit (aka 24 bit = 8x3 rgb) 8x8x8 = 512/2 = 256
0-(4,095?) = 12 bit (aka 36 bit = 12x3 rgb) 12x12x12 = 1972/2 = 936
0-32,767 = ?
0-65,536 ? = 16 bit (aka 48 bit = 16x3 rgb) 16x16x16 = 4096/2 = 2048
partly from: <http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/u-raw-files.shtml> "if the camera records 12 bits of data then each pixel can handle 4,096 brightness levels (2^12), and if 14 bit then it can record 16,384 different brightness levels (2^14). ... loaded into a raw conversion program and then saved to a TIFF or .PSD format file it can be exported in 16 bit mode. The 12 or 14 bits recorded by the camera are then spread over the full 16 bit workspace. ... Both the sRGB and Adobe RGB colour spaces use a gamma 2.2 encoding. Gamma encoding reallocates encoding levels from the upper f-stops into the lower f-stops to compensate for the human eye's greater sensitivity to absolute changes in the darker tone range."
[hmmm so gamma is the better way to delinearize? and I should probably adjust gamma in Iris for best results since photoshop will simply assume it's gamma 2.2... yes I tested & this produces a histogram very similar to the basic photoshop conversion, see bottom]
and: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/bit-depth.shtml
and Roger Clark: http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/raw.converter.shadow.detail/ "Photoshop does 15-bit math even when running on 32 bit files... most editing functions do not work in Photoshop in 32 bit mode [8 bit cmyk?]
[note: I don't believe photoshop has these limitations any more, that must have been an old version]
...ImagesPlus [does] 64-bit floating point processing." http://www.mlunsold.com/ -Read and write 8, 16, and 32 bit integer or 32 bit float RAW images -Read and write 8, 16, and 32 bit integer or 32 bit float and 64 bit double FITS -RGB no CMYK
Here's a procedure for converting a raw file with gamma adjustment:
Load RAW file Digital Photo > 16 bit to 48 bit -ack what does this mean? It's necessary before the gamma adjustment. View > Gamma Adjustment (raise each to 2.2) View Histogram -note that it has expanded to about 13000 and 32767/13000 = 2.52 so: Processing > Multiply (2.52) Digital Photo > Convert CFA File > Save (TIF, not the default BMP)
Now with this I'm getting a very similar look to the photoshop ACR conversion (other than the freaky white balance) with an almost identical histogram. But honestly I'm seeing a little more detail and less noise in the photoshop version. Probably that can be attributed to the simplified bayer demosaicing.
The screen shots do not include the iris gamma adjustment: <http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Misc/photography/iris/screenshot>
Paul Furman - 08 Apr 2006 22:25 GMT > I guess what I need to do is apply a curve to it, to remove the linear > nature of the capture. Adjusting gamma approximates this but very [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > down to 255, right? How do I do that? What I see in photoshop is > everything crammed into 0-40 (out of 0-255) in levels. OK I see now that the logarithm and equalization operations need to be done on the initial bay pattern raw file before doing CFA. Here's a comparison of a logarithm adjusted version with photoshop converted and the bayer raw view: <http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Misc/photography/iris/screenshot> It's clear that the result is badly posterized compared to the ACR photoshop version. It's also amazing what a mess the un-de-mosaiced raw version is.
JPS@no.komm - 07 Apr 2006 04:08 GMT >Hi Guys,
>There is another question here, which is how meaningful is a 'correct' >but generally unobtainable test result compared to a realistic one >which most people can get with the software they have? To compare what the cameras capture on a level playing field. There are so many variables when comparing conversions. RAW data is *EXTREMELY* easy to work with (mathematically, I mean - the tools aren't always there); simpler than conversions by orders of magnitude, once you know what it is you are looking at. To use IRIS, you just take a shot with two different cameras, set the same f-stop and shutter speed on both, and scale the linear data so that the darker RAW image has the same levels in its highlights as the brighter one, and you have a very simple relationship between the two; the tones match. You can apply a gamma to both; the same gamma, and the tones are still the same. If they're not, then there is something we need to know about (high or low blackpoint clipping). In DPReview's D200 vs 30D comparison, the postage stamp obviously has a completely different transfer curve applied with the different cameras; the D200 postage stamp has much more contrast.
In one of my comparisons of the same camera at different ISOs, I had ISO 100 and 1600 both pushed to 10,000; I set the linear scaling of the two to exactly a 16:1 ratio, the same as the inverse of the ratio of exposure times, and the tones came out *exactly* the same; only the noise varied. I could never, ever do that with a conversion; not even a 16-bit TIFF.
>I'll go and look >at the more esoteric software route, whether Mac or PC, hell I could >even write some code, as writing imaging software is part of what I've >done for the last 25 years, but what would be the point if the result >was something that no-one could actually see in the software they use. I shoot with the expectation that there will be better software someday, as RAW converters are still in the dark ages, IMO.
There is a place for comparing out-of-camera JPEGs, and a place for comparing conversions, but there is also a place for what the camera really captures - the RAW capture, and if you shoot RAW, you still have this for future converters with better highlight and shadow handling.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Jeremy Nixon - 07 Apr 2006 04:13 GMT > There is another question here, which is how meaningful is a 'correct' > but generally unobtainable test result compared to a realistic one > which most people can get with the software they have? If you compare based on the image output, you're actually comparing the combination of camera and raw conversion. Looking at the raw data removes the conversion from consideration.
Since the raw conversion can't be the same from one camera to another, especially if you use different software for each (but even if you don't), comparing image output is much less meaningful. If your conversion for one camera happens to be inferior, you could arrive at entirely the opposite conclusion from what you should; you might say, "geez, this camera is way noisier than this other one," when in reality, the interpolation and other software transformations may be what is worse, and that camera might be much *less* noisy using other software.
 Signature Jeremy | jeremy@exit109.com
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 06 Apr 2006 15:12 GMT >> This is one of the reasons I call for RAW comparisons (RAW, not >> conversions). The D200 image looks darker overall, but it also has more [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > most of us have no way to actually look at the raw data in the raw, so to > speak. There is more to that. If you pick the same ISO, shutter speed and apeture for both cameras and shut off all automatic adjustments in ACR, you still don't have the same thing. You also need to find an equivalent ISO. Unfortunately, brands of cameras are not consistant in this area. Some shoot ISO200 at ISO180 for instance. Thus a close match would be one where exposure compenstated for this ... so, judgement by the histogram is required.
 Signature Thomas T. Veldhouse Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
JPS@no.komm - 06 Apr 2006 22:06 GMT >Some shoot >ISO200 at ISO180 for instance. Thus a close match would be one where exposure >compenstated for this ... so, judgement by the histogram is required. Histograms vary *far* more widely than ISO 180 vs 200!
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< wayne - 06 Apr 2006 21:34 GMT That's why I redid the 350D in Lightroom so I had exactly the same setup as I realised that camera RAW from Bridge had mucked with what I had done.
I will look at re-doing in IRIS, as I run PC and Mac (Mac preferred :)
Cheers,
Wayne
Wayne J. Cosshall Publisher, The Digital ImageMaker, http://www.dimagemaker.com/ Blog and Podcast http://www.digitalimagemakerworld.com/ Personal art site http://www.artinyourface.com/
wayne - 06 Apr 2006 21:56 GMT Yes, they were shot in RAW and converted in Abobe's Lightroom so I could at least use the same conversion process.
Cheers,
Wayne
Wayne J. Cosshall Publisher, The Digital ImageMaker, http://www.dimagemaker.com/ Blog and Podcast http://www.digitalimagemakerworld.com/ Personal art site http://www.artinyourface.com/
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