Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / April 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

35mm equivalent f/stop

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Paul Furman - 04 Apr 2006 07:04 GMT
We talk in terms of 35mm equivalent (full frame) focal length but rarely
compare the f/stop that way. As I understand the light gathering ability
is the same only the COC (circle of confusion) changes.

for reference:
A Tedious Explanation of the f/stop
http://www.uscoles.com/fstop.htm
1.4    2.0    2.8    4    5.6    8    11    16    22
Bill - 04 Apr 2006 08:26 GMT
>We talk in terms of 35mm equivalent (full frame) focal length but rarely
>compare the f/stop that way. As I understand the light gathering ability
>is the same only the COC (circle of confusion) changes.

I believe you're correct - the intensity of light hitting the sensor is
essentially the same as film, just a smaller surface area is captured.

And I still find it odd that people think a 50mm prime on a DSLR is
equivalent to a 75mm on a film body.

While the relative field of view is equivalent, the perspective and
resulting image is most definitely not the same. Just try shooting a
portrait of someone with a 50mm, and compare it to a similarly composed
image with a 70mm.

I know I certainly will not take a portrait of my girlfriend at 50mm.
She'd cut me off for weeks!

:-)
John Bean - 04 Apr 2006 08:48 GMT
>And I still find it odd that people think a 50mm prime on a DSLR is
>equivalent to a 75mm on a film body.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>portrait of someone with a 50mm, and compare it to a similarly composed
>image with a 70mm.

If the distance from the camera to the subject remains the
same then perspective is the same. The focal length of the
lens plays no part in defining the perspective.

Signature

John Bean

Bill - 04 Apr 2006 09:08 GMT
>>And I still find it odd that people think a 50mm prime on a DSLR is
>>equivalent to a 75mm on a film body.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>same then perspective is the same. The focal length of the
>lens plays no part in defining the perspective.

Yeah...tell that to my girlfriends nose.

:-)
John Bean - 04 Apr 2006 09:26 GMT
>>>And I still find it odd that people think a 50mm prime on a DSLR is
>>>equivalent to a 75mm on a film body.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Yeah...tell that to my girlfriends nose.

Your girlfriends nose only changes shape if you move closer
with the 50 to keep the image size the same. Stay at the
same distance as you used with the 70 and inspect the
result.

Don't theorise, do it. You might surprise your girlfriend's
nose.

Signature

John Bean

Jeremy Nixon - 04 Apr 2006 10:25 GMT
> Yeah...tell that to my girlfriends nose.

You try telling it to your girlfriend's nose.  Really, try it.  Focal length
has absolutely nothing to do with perspective, or stretched noses.

Signature

Jeremy  |  jeremy@exit109.com

Gisle Hannemyr - 05 Apr 2006 18:28 GMT
> And I still find it odd that people think a 50mm prime on a DSLR is
> equivalent to a 75mm on a film body.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> portrait of someone with a 50mm, and compare it to a similarly
> composed image with a 70mm.

May I politely suggest that /you/ try it - because you obviously
haven't.

I have tried it.  The images are on this webpage:
  http://hannemyr.com/photo/crop.html#per

Please tell me if you see any "wide-angle perspective" in the shot
taken with the 28 mm lens.

The notion "perspective" of an image is related to focal length is one
of the most persistent and confusing myths to rise in the wake of
digital technology and "cropped" imagers.

> I know I certainly will not take a portrait of my girlfriend at
> 50mm.  She'd cut me off for weeks! :-)

Well, maybe not if you just crop it properly before showing her ;-) ..
Signature

- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://hannemyr.com/photo/ ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
------------------------------------------------------------------------

JPS@no.komm - 06 Apr 2006 04:26 GMT
>The notion "perspective" of an image is related to focal length is one
>of the most persistent and confusing myths to rise in the wake of
>digital technology and "cropped" imagers.

It probably is reinforced by the fact that wide angle lenses generally
focus closer than longer lenses, and have greater DOF, so close-up
objects generally get that "big nose" distortion in them, clearly in
focus.  When something is close and exaggerated and it is *not* in
focus, its size is not immediately estimated.

So, in bill's scenario, what he fears is only going to happen if he
backs away from the subject with the 50mm lens, *and* someone comes up
and sticks their nose close to the lens.
Signature


<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Bill - 11 Apr 2006 20:44 GMT
>>The notion "perspective" of an image is related to focal length is one
>>of the most persistent and confusing myths to rise in the wake of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>backs away from the subject with the 50mm lens, *and* someone comes up
>and sticks their nose close to the lens.

Hmm...that just might happen as well...some of my friends are wackos.

:-)
RW+/- - 10 Apr 2006 00:17 GMT
>> And I still find it odd that people think a 50mm prime on a DSLR is
>> equivalent to a 75mm on a film body.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Please tell me if you see any "wide-angle perspective" in the shot
> taken with the 28 mm lens.

Thank you for taking the time to do the research and paper. It helped
clarify a few issues and provided understanding I did not have. It also
brought out a few idea's I want to dbl check on. It seems to me after
reading your paper that anyone who does reviews on cameras better have a
good understanding of what you wrote or are apt to give false impressions
in their reviews. (Like using a 50mm lens for comparisons between different
cameras.)

Thanks a bunch!
Bill - 11 Apr 2006 20:44 GMT
>> And I still find it odd that people think a 50mm prime on a DSLR is
>> equivalent to a 75mm on a film body.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>May I politely suggest that /you/ try it - because you obviously
>haven't.

Sorry I took so long to respond...been busy with work lately.

>I have tried it.  The images are on this webpage:
>   http://hannemyr.com/photo/crop.html#per
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>of the most persistent and confusing myths to rise in the wake of
>digital technology and "cropped" imagers.

By golly, you're right...I tried it with 17, 40, and 70mm and when
cropped to the same fields of view, the perspective was the same in each
shot.

I've been shooting for ten years, and I never came across this scenario.
I guess we really do learn something new each day!

>> I know I certainly will not take a portrait of my girlfriend at
>> 50mm.  She'd cut me off for weeks! :-)
>
>Well, maybe not if you just crop it properly before showing her ;-) ..

Yup...a 50mm on a 1.5x or 1.6x crop factor camera makes for a nice
portrait lense - go figure.

Thanks for showing me the error of my ways...I'll be able to get some
next weekend for sure. And no, there will be no pictures of _that_ for
public viewing.

:-)
RichA - 04 Apr 2006 08:58 GMT
Check out this download.

http://tangentsoft.net/fcalc/win32.html
Paul Furman - 04 Apr 2006 17:02 GMT
> Check out this download.
>
> http://tangentsoft.net/fcalc/win32.html

Thanks, so with that I get:

50mm f/2.8 at 1 meter distance on APS
COC = 0.019m

and on full frame 35mm:
COC = 0.025m

But if I try to make the COC close to a match by changing f/stop, the
COC doesn't change at any f/stop only the DOF so lets get the DOF to match:

f/2.8 at 50mm and 1 meter distance on APS
DOF = 0.043m

f/2.0 on full frame 35mm:
COC = 0.038m

and

f/8 at 50mm and 1 meter distance on APS
DOF = 0.122m

f/5.6 on full frame 35mm:
COC = 0.122m

and

f/22 at 50mm and 1 meter distance on APS
DOF = 0.35m

f/16 on full frame 35mm:
COC = 0.31m

So it looks like (about) a 1 stop difference in DOF between APS & full
frame.
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org - 04 Apr 2006 18:53 GMT
> 50mm f/2.8 at 1 meter distance on APS
> COC = 0.019m
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> But if I try to make the COC close to a match by changing f/stop, the
> COC doesn't change at any f/stop only the DOF so lets get the DOF to match:

Circle of confusion doesn't depend on f-stop or focal
length, it depends on the amount of enlargement (which
does depend on the format/sensor size) and
how picky you are.  This is why a DOF scale on a "35mm"
lens would be misleading when the lens is used on an
APS-sized sensor.

Once the circle of confusion is set by the amount of
enlargement you want, then various optical formulae
(which are really just geometry) tell you the DOF at
the selected focal length and f-stop.
Cheesehead - 04 Apr 2006 19:14 GMT
No.  completely wrong.
(But so wrong that I wonder if this person wants to *dialog*)

What's in focus in the finder (stopped down, of course)
is what's in focus on the film or in the image file.
That happend BEFORE any printing/enlargement is done.

The DOF scale is built to the lens and related to it and the results it
produces
regardless of the medium used to capture the image.

Collin
KC8TKA
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org - 05 Apr 2006 05:09 GMT
I wrote:
>> Circle of confusion doesn't depend on f-stop or focal
>> length, it depends on the amount of enlargement (which
>> does depend on the format/sensor size) and
>> how picky you are.  This is why a DOF scale on a "35mm"
>> lens would be misleading when the lens is used on an
>> APS-sized sensor.

> No.  completely wrong.
> (But so wrong that I wonder if this person wants to *dialog*)
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Collin

You didn't quote what you were responding to,
but I assume it was the quote of mine above.
Actually, what i wrote is correct.  David Dyer-Bennet
wrote something similar.  The circle of confusion
is the acceptable blur and it makes sense to talk
about this in terms of enlargement.  Something
that is acceptably sharp in an 8x enlargement may
not be acceptably sharp in a 20x enlargement.
In other words, your judgement of what's in focus
on the film depends on how big you plan to blow
it up.

Suppose I photograph the same scene with three
cameras: a digital P&S with a 6x8mm sensor,
35mm film cropped to 24x30mm, and 6x7 (really
about 56x70mm).  Then I make an 8x10 inch print
from each.  I have to enlarge them about 32x, 8x,
and 3.6x respectively.

A print is often considered acceptably sharp if it
has resolution around 4 line pairs/mm.  Let's say
this corresponds to a blur circle of 0.25mm - any
point blurred more than that starts to look soft.
Divide by the enlargement factor to get the acceptable
circle of confusion on the sensor/film.  It is
0.008mm, 0.03mm, and 0.07mm respectively.
(You can see that small format digi-P&Ses have to have
great image quality to make acceptable enlargements.)

In fact 0.03mm is about the C-o-C number that
most 35mm lens makers assumed when engraving
their DoF scales on lenses, back when all lenses
had DoF scales and there was no question of
mounting the lenses on a crop factor camera because
they didn't exist yet.  (You can check this for a lens
by computing C-o-C: c = f^2/N/H, where f=focal length,
N is f/number and H is hyperfocal distance.)

If I mount the 35mm lens on a 1.5x crop factor camera
and enlarge the image 12x to make my 8x10 print, the
acceptable C-o-C on the film has shrunk to 0.02mm.
The DoF scale on the lens will be too permissive.

On DoF: the hyperfocal distance is H = f^2/N/c.  Focusing at
H means a point at infinity is blurred to the size of the C-o-C.
This formula helps explains why larger formats have
less DoF at the same perspective.  To keep perspective
the same, focal length f scales up proportional to the
format size.  C-o-C also scales up.  But the formula has
two powers of f divided by one of c, so keeping f/number
constant, H goes up for larger formats.

None of this is really controversial.  There used to be a
"Lens FAQ" written by David Jacobson that summarized
DoF and other issues for the rec.photo groups, but I haven't
seen anyone refer to it in a long while.
David Dyer-Bennet - 04 Apr 2006 20:19 GMT
> > Check out this download.
> > http://tangentsoft.net/fcalc/win32.html
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> COC doesn't change at any f/stop only the DOF so lets get the DOF to
> match:

"Circle of confusion" is the number you *pick* to define what "sharp"
means.  The DoF calculation will then tell you what range of distances
will be within that limit of "sharp".  

Picking the CoC is generally done based on expected degree of
enlargement -- essentially upsizing the CoC onto the eventual print.
Plus some people define "sharp" more stringently than others.
Signature

David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

Paul Furman - 04 Apr 2006 20:29 GMT
>>50mm f/2.8 at 1 meter distance on APS
>>COC = 0.019m
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> enlargement -- essentially upsizing the CoC onto the eventual print.
> Plus some people define "sharp" more stringently than others.

I was thinking the COC is the size of OOF blur circles like this:

 ___________
|  ___      |
| /   \     |
| \___/     |
|___________|

 ___________
|           |
|   o       |
|           |
|___________|

Aren't those circles of confusion?
David Dyer-Bennet - 04 Apr 2006 20:48 GMT
> >>50mm f/2.8 at 1 meter distance on APS
> >>COC = 0.019m
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Aren't those circles of confusion?

CoC are the limt of OOF blur circles from a point that are considered
"in focus".  A point at the exact focal distance will image as a point
on the film, anything closer or farther away will image as a circle,
the size depending on how far from the plane of focus and which side
of it they are on.  Eventually, the circle gets big enough that people
start noticing the image is out of focus.
Signature

David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

R. Mark Clayton - 04 Apr 2006 13:13 GMT
> We talk in terms of 35mm equivalent (full frame) focal length but rarely
> compare the f/stop that way. As I understand the light gathering ability
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> http://www.uscoles.com/fstop.htm
> 1.4    2.0    2.8    4    5.6    8    11    16    22

This is because the f ratio has nothing to do with the [absolute] focal
length!  It is merely the ratio between the focal length and the image size,
so the f ratio applies to all camera lenses - large format, 35mm, APS, 110
and for video.  If the lens has an iris then it can be "stopped down" (i.e.
aperture made smaller) to larger f ratios so an f1.4 lens can be stopped
down to f2, but not the other way round.

What is a source of confusion is where the zoom is express in terms of 35mm,
but the image (CCD) is not in the focal plane of a 35mm camera and if the
lens is put on an equivalent 35mm film camera the image will be distorted,
whereas it works fine in reverse.

A far better term would be an "M ratio" (the ratio of the focal length to
the image size).  For a 50mm lens and 35mm film this is about 1.2.  Ratios
below 1 would be wide angle and larger numbers would give the degree of
magnification.

This would allow the size and form factor of cameras to reduce from the 35mm
currently used as the starting point.  It is perfectly possible to get a CCD
with 12MP resolution (~ equivalent to 35mm film) in much smaller area than
35x24mm and retain this resolution at all sensitivities (unlike faster
films).  This reduces the size and weight of the camera and importantly the
size, weight and above all cost of the optics necessary to focus an image on
it.

For example Morgan are currently selling a Hi-8 video camera with 22X zoom
on it for £60.
http://www.morgancomputers.co.uk/shop/detail.asp?ProductID=3314&adnetwork=af,
but the image is only 8mm

AFAIK the largest zoom you can hope for on a full frame 35mm is about 12.
Paul Furman - 04 Apr 2006 16:29 GMT
> A far better term would be an "M ratio" (the ratio of the focal length to
> the image size).  For a 50mm lens and 35mm film this is about 1.2.  Ratios
> below 1 would be wide angle and larger numbers would give the degree of
> magnification.

OK this is interesting and I agree useful but what I was getting at is a
ratio that indicates the size of the COC relative to the image size (at
a given focal length or M-ratio).

 ___________
|  ___      |
| /   \     |
| \___/     |
|___________|

 ___________
|           |
|   o       |
|           |
|___________|
Cheesehead - 04 Apr 2006 17:58 GMT
This gets confusing for many people.
Digital APS-C 50mm at f8 is EXACTLY THE SAME as 135 format, 50mm at f8.

If you want the same DOF (or approximately pretty close) *with the same
composiiton*
(and that's really the key, isn't it?) then a 35mm focal length, opened
up a half stop
will get you really close.

The actual DOF is determined by two things:  Lens focal length AND
aperture opening size.
It's affected somewhat by lens design.

Using a 4x5 camera beside a 35mm, the "normal" lenses would be 150mm
and 50mm.
(or thereabouts, for the sake of argument.  To get the same DOF it's
about 4 stops
(iirc.  Haven't checked for a while to be precise).  And, if you
compare images, the
composition perspectives will be roughly the same.  Even though putting
a 150mm
on your 35 will make the image appear *compressed*, that's really a
trick of perspective.
Use greater coverage, as with 4x5, and the compression magically
disappears.

My 2c,

Collin
KC8TKA
Paul Furman - 04 Apr 2006 19:18 GMT
> This gets confusing for many people.
> Digital APS-C 50mm at f8 is EXACTLY THE SAME as 135 format, 50mm at f8.
>
> If you want the same DOF (or approximately pretty close) *with the same
> composiiton*

Good point, I shouldn't be comparing 50mm lens on the two.
I'll assume 33mm on Nikon 1.5 APS.

f/1 at 33mm and 1 meter distance on APS
DOF = 0.035m

f/2.0 at 50mm and 1 meter distance on full frame 35mm:
DOF = 0.038m

and

f/2.8 at 33mm and 1 meter distance on APS
DOF = 0.10m

f/5.6 at 50mm and 1 meter distance on full frame 35mm:
DOF = 0.12m

and

f/8 at 33mm and 1 meter distance on APS
DOF = 0.28m

f/16 at 50mm and 1 meter distance on full frame 35mm:
DOF = 0.31m

So it looks like (about) a 1 stop difference in DOF between APS & full
frame at wide apertures and somewhat more stopped down. with that f/calc
utility I can only chose even f/stops so I can't quite make the DOF
numbers match.

> (and that's really the key, isn't it?) then a 35mm focal length, opened
> up a half stop
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Collin
> KC8TKA

Signature

Paul Furman
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives
http://www.baynatives.com

Mike G. - 08 Apr 2006 02:56 GMT
> Good point, I shouldn't be comparing 50mm lens on the two.
> I'll assume 33mm on Nikon 1.5 APS.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> utility I can only chose even f/stops so I can't quite make the DOF
> numbers match.

Just when I thought I was following this, you summarized by saying about
a 1 stop difference.  But I was thinking that f/1 --> f/2, f/2.8 -->
f/5.6, etc, was 2 stops, as in f/1 --> f/1.4 and f/1.4 -->f/2 etc,
*each* being a stop.
Paul Furman - 08 Apr 2006 06:35 GMT
> Just when I thought I was following this,

I messed up that whole thing. It seems one can just use the 1.5
multiplier to find comparable DOF. So it really is just exactly like
cropping.
Cheesehead - 08 Apr 2006 14:30 GMT
Even better --- and more practical --- do the math on the size of the
CofC.
You'll find that the DOF difference is truely miniscule between 1.2 and
1.4.
The added lens speed is more beneficial to increasing shutter speed in
low light than in gaining a shallower DOF.

Collin
KC8TKA
Paul Furman - 08 Apr 2006 18:21 GMT
> Even better --- and more practical --- do the math on the size of the
> CofC.
> You'll find that the DOF difference is truely miniscule between 1.2 and
> 1.4.
> The added lens speed is more beneficial to increasing shutter speed in
> low light than in gaining a shallower DOF.

What is the difference is COC/DOF between 1.4 & 0.9?

The comparison is a 50mm prime made equal on a 1.5 crop DSLR. Use 0.66
as the multiplier on focal length and f/stop & you get a 33mm f/0.9 for
equivalent field of view and depth of field. If you could get such a
lens you would need to use a faster shutter speed because of the extra
light, to achieve the same DOF as the 50/1.4.

I don't even know, is this the right math?
Jeremy Nixon - 09 Apr 2006 10:24 GMT
> What is the difference is COC/DOF between 1.4 & 0.9?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> lens you would need to use a faster shutter speed because of the extra
> light, to achieve the same DOF as the 50/1.4.

But, at 50/1.4, depth of field is nearly nonexistent.  Roughly 4 inches
at 6 feet.  With a DSLR, sure, you'd have to go to f/1.0 at 35mm to get
that at 6 feet, but at f/1.4 you've got six inches.  Is that really so
significant?

Personally, I find that sometimes I can't get quite enough depth of field,
but I have never once been unable to get little enough with a DSLR, and
I have a thing for low depth of field.

Signature

Jeremy  |  jeremy@exit109.com

Paul Furman - 09 Apr 2006 18:00 GMT
>>What is the difference is COC/DOF between 1.4 & 0.9?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> but I have never once been unable to get little enough with a DSLR, and
> I have a thing for low depth of field.

Here's what I get on that f/calc program:
at 6-feet
35mm APS f/1 DOF = 4.2 in
50mm full f/1.4 DOF = 3.6 in

Not a big difference, agreed.

Just out of curiosity:
35mm full frame f/1 DOF = 5.3 in
Jeremy Nixon - 09 Apr 2006 23:10 GMT
> Here's what I get on that f/calc program:
> at 6-feet
> 35mm APS f/1 DOF = 4.2 in
> 50mm full f/1.4 DOF = 3.6 in

Slightly different numbers are just a result of different circles of
confusion used.  Plus, I don't bother with precision of less than an
inch, since depth of field isn't that precise to begin with.  (Of
course, if doing macro, it would matter.)

> Not a big difference, agreed.

I see no depth of field advantage to 35mm sensors.  If anything, APS makes
larger apertures more useful.  Also, you won't get the same depth of field
with a 35mm sensor as you would with film; you will need to use a smaller
circle of confusion for digital due to the higher resolution, so you'll
get even less.

It's still only a very minor difference, though.  If you want extremely
shallow depth of field, there is no problem getting it with either format.

Signature

Jeremy  |  jeremy@exit109.com

Paul Furman - 09 Apr 2006 23:55 GMT
>>Here's what I get on that f/calc program:
>>at 6-feet
>>35mm APS f/1 DOF = 4.2 in
>>50mm full f/1.4 DOF = 3.6 in

OK I checked one more (since there is no 35mm f/1:
35mm APS f/1.4 DOF = 6 in

So that's nearly twice the DOF. Still similar though. 35mm on APS would
frame a torso portrait at 6 feet. Four inches or six would still get
their whole face in focus about the same.

> Slightly different numbers are just a result of different circles of
> confusion used.  Plus, I don't bother with precision of less than an
> inch, since depth of field isn't that precise to begin with.  (Of
> course, if doing macro, it would matter.)

At three inches away (76mm):
35mm APS  f/1.4 DOF = 0.14 mm
35mm APS  f/1.0 DOF = 0.10 mm
50mm full f/1.4 DOF = 0.05 mm

: - )

or stopped down:
35mm APS  f/16 DOF = 1.6 mm
50mm full f/22 DOF = 0.9 mm
35mm APS  f/22 DOF = 2.3 mm

>>Not a big difference, agreed.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> It's still only a very minor difference, though.  If you want extremely
> shallow depth of field, there is no problem getting it with either format.
Thomas - 04 Apr 2006 19:49 GMT
Paul Furman:
> We talk in terms of 35mm equivalent (full frame) focal length but rarely
> compare the f/stop that way.

True. Everything relevant for the image can be described in terms of
the "reality" side of the lense. And that is angle of view and absolute
(visible) aperture side.

So if you have a 50/1.8 for 35mm, the corresponding lense for a crop
factor of two would be a 25/0.9. Of course you will not find this, so
you have to live with a deeper DOF.

Thomas
Paul Furman - 04 Apr 2006 20:49 GMT
> Paul Furman:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> factor of two would be a 25/0.9. Of course you will not find this, so
> you have to live with a deeper DOF.

Oh that's great, I like easy math!

So the Nikon APS equivalent of a 50mm f/1.8 lens would be 33mm f/1.2,
the closest available is a 35mm f/1.4 and that's equivalent to a 50mm
f/2 (with some mild rounding). If you really want a truly 'normal focal
length that's about 28mm on Nikon APS and can be got in f/1.4 and which
is equivalent to a 42mm f/2. But the 28/1.4 is crazy expensive so it's a
MF 28/2 (42/4 eq.).

Or is the math a little bit trickier because of the logarithmic scale of
stops?
R. Mark Clayton - 04 Apr 2006 22:55 GMT
>> Paul Furman:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> So the Nikon APS equivalent of a 50mm f/1.8 lens would be 33mm f/1.2,

No the f ratio does not change although the focal length might

So a 90mm on 6x7, 50mm on 35mm film or 35mm on APS (24mm) or 24mm on 110
(13x17mm film).

One wonders if the Pentax 110 system could be reintroduced with a digital
back?

> Or is the math a little bit trickier because of the logarithmic scale of
> stops?
Paul Furman - 04 Apr 2006 23:19 GMT
>>>Paul Furman:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> No the f ratio does not change although the focal length might

I'm just using f/stop to compare DOF, not literal f/stop. At equivalent
DOF & FOV the smaller sensor actually gathers more light (if you could
afford the large aperture to match DOF) and you'd have to use a faster
shutter speed.

Are there any really fast lenses on small sensor cameras?

> So a 90mm on 6x7, 50mm on 35mm film or 35mm on APS (24mm) or 24mm on 110
> (13x17mm film).
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>Or is the math a little bit trickier because of the logarithmic scale of
>>stops?
RichA - 05 Apr 2006 05:33 GMT
Not anymore.  The fastest was Olympus's f1.8 that was on the C-series
of cameras
made between 2000 and 2004.  Right now, f2 would be the fastest, on a
Sony I think.
This is not to say an f1 isn't possible.  The P&S cameras provide the
freedom to place
the rear element anywere right up to the sensor itself, unlike DSLRs.
But the cost to
produce a decent (it would have to be a zoom since no one would buy a
P&S without one)
zoom with the wide end being f1 or f1.2 would be great, even if the
sensor was small.
Cheesehead - 05 Apr 2006 15:50 GMT
Well, if Leica could produce a digital back for their SLR ...

Collin
Gisle Hannemyr - 05 Apr 2006 18:58 GMT
> Well, if Leica could produce a digital back for their SLR ...

You mean something like the "Leica Digital-Modul-R" for the R8/R9?
Signature

- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://hannemyr.com/photo/ ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
------------------------------------------------------------------------

bmoag - 05 Apr 2006 17:24 GMT
You dismiss too lightly the effects of diffraction in the physically small
f-stops of very short focal length lenses. Camera manufacturers do not, as
even a cursory examination of the f-stop ranges in small sensor cameras will
reveal. The effects of diffraction on an image are not predictably
corrrectable by computer algrorithms or advances in technology (at least not
yet). Linear distortion, e.g. barrel, is predictable and easily corrected by
in-camera or post-camera processing. Sensor noise is a moving target that
has dramatically improved over the short life time of digital imaging
technology, will continue to improve, and is an insignicant factor in bad
images compared to the limited skill sets of most photographers. The main
impetus for 35mm equivalent full size sensor cameras is because of  the (so
far) insurmountable optical limits of wide angle, very short focal length
lenses with APS-c and smaller size sensors, not the noise inherent to the
sensors themselves. Over time, when a generation of photographers has grown
up realizing that a serious camera does not have to have the same form
factor as a 1937 Exacta, more ergonomically designed, lighter cameras will
better be able to take advantage of small sensors in every facet of their
design.
Alan Browne - 11 Apr 2006 00:55 GMT
> We talk in terms of 35mm equivalent (full frame) focal length but rarely
> compare the f/stop that way. As I understand the light gathering ability
> is the same only the COC (circle of confusion) changes.

The focal length does not change.  The crop factor does.

CoC is a function of enlargement.  The "reference" enlargement is an
8x10 print for most camera system lens markings.

Signature

-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
--      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.