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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / April 2006

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Rebel XT vs.D50

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Mr.Bolshoyhuy - 02 Apr 2006 05:11 GMT
Why is the Canon Rebel XT ($700 J&R) more than the Nikon D50($580 J&R)?
They are both entry level SLRs, and seem to have similar features;
the D50 has 6.1mp while the XT 8mp, but is that all?
While the Pentax *iST-DL 6mp is even less at $460.
Bill - 02 Apr 2006 05:47 GMT
>Why is the Canon Rebel XT ($700 J&R) more than the Nikon D50($580 J&R)?

It has more resolution and more features. The Rebel XT competes more
directly against the Nikon D70s.

>They are both entry level SLRs, and seem to have similar features;
>the D50 has 6.1mp while the XT 8mp, but is that all?
>While the Pentax *iST-DL 6mp is even less at $460.

Read this to get an idea of the differences:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond50/page19.asp
RichA - 02 Apr 2006 06:02 GMT
Canon has done a good job preventing price erosion in it's brand.
Andy Lee - 03 Apr 2006 15:44 GMT
>Canon has done a good job preventing price erosion in it's brand.

Oh please the D50 was always priced lower than the 350 at least here
in Europe.
burnsdavidj@yahoo.com - 03 Apr 2006 16:07 GMT
I'm sure legions of 300D, 5D, and 350D owners would disagree with you.

Last year at this time for about $1200 CAD. Its now easily available
for $950 locally here in Toronto, and with the newly announced rebate
you can get it for about $850. That's a 30% decline in one year,
typical for the industry.

The D50 is about as bare-bones a DSLR as anyone would want to buy.
Aside from the physical body and lack of spot metering, the 350D meets
or exceeds all of the D70s' features.

Mr Bolshoyhuy, you should be shopping for a lens mount, not a camera.
If you want to use Nikon lenses, but are a bit cash strapped for the
moment, a D50 still makes sense! However, if you're just looking for
'best camera for the $', the Pentax is probably the best choice, or
maybe even something from Olympus.
RichA - 04 Apr 2006 05:19 GMT
One feature it does not meet.
You Canon people are always harping about lower noise, the D50s is
noticeably
lower than the Rebel XT.
Bill - 04 Apr 2006 06:08 GMT
>One feature it does not meet.
>You Canon people are always harping about lower noise, the D50s is
>noticeably
>lower than the Rebel XT.

I think you meant to write SLIGHTLY lower than the XT (only tests reveal
the differences), and only at high ISO levels (1600), and only in
certain colour channels.

But it doesn't make much difference unless you like to put the camera in
auto and print from the JPG images you capture. In that instance, the
D50 does reign supreme. But for anyone else who does a little post
processing, the Nikon D70s is the best option. The Canon XT is second.
And the D50 is third.

But only under test conditions...in the real world I seriously doubt any
one could ever tell the difference between any of them from 8x10 prints,
or whatever.

Geezes, I though I had you filtered...ok...now you're in there...
Robert Brace - 04 Apr 2006 06:55 GMT
>>One feature it does not meet.
>>You Canon people are always harping about lower noise, the D50s is
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Geezes, I though I had you filtered...ok...now you're in there...

Now let me be sure I understand what you are saying:
If you stay with JPG, the D50 does great.  However, if you chose to process
from the NEF file of the D50, it suddenly drops to 3rd place from 1st.
If I were you I'd be looking seriously at your raw workflow, test conditions
or not  --  you obviously have some serious problems there!!
Bob
Bill - 04 Apr 2006 08:26 GMT
>>>One feature it does not meet.
>>>You Canon people are always harping about lower noise, the D50s is
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>If I were you I'd be looking seriously at your raw workflow, test conditions
>or not  --  you obviously have some serious problems there!!

I'm not talking about RAW workflow here specifically, but JPG output.

Don't forget that in-camera JPG processing varies with camera model, so
while a JPG can be better processed in another camera due to newer
and/or better algorithms, the RAW data output may be equal or even
inferior to another model.

Have a look at this comparison to see what I mean:

http://www.digitalreview.ca/cams/NikonD50vsD70SvsXT_images.shtml

For casual users, probably the majority rather than the minority, the
quality of the JPG output matters more because they don't want to post
process  - they just want to print the image and show their family or
friends, and be done with it.

Also consider that these people are likely using 4x6 or 5x7 prints where
most of this makes not one iota of difference.
JPS@no.komm - 04 Apr 2006 08:43 GMT
>One feature it does not meet.
>You Canon people are always harping about lower noise, the D50s is
>noticeably
>lower than the Rebel XT.

Lets see some evidence.  RAW files, viewed RAW, not in a converter.
Blackframes, from both at various ISO settings, and "grey scales", shot
with the same f-stop and shutter speed.  Resolution tests at high ISO;
same t-mount lens on both cameras.
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Rich - 04 Apr 2006 23:13 GMT
>>One feature it does not meet.
>>You Canon people are always harping about lower noise, the D50s is
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>with the same f-stop and shutter speed.  Resolution tests at high ISO;
>same t-mount lens on both cameras.

Who cares about RAW files viewed as RAW?  It has nothing to do with
the average shooter viewing them on a screen or printing them.
-Rich
JPS@no.komm - 05 Apr 2006 02:03 GMT
>>>One feature it does not meet.
>>>You Canon people are always harping about lower noise, the D50s is
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Who cares about RAW files viewed as RAW?  It has nothing to do with
>the average shooter viewing them on a screen or printing them.

It eliminates a lot of bullshit caused by noise-reduced JPEGs, darkened
shadows, false ISOs, etc, etc.  It shows the true potential of the
camera.

It is really annoying, knowing how damn easy it is to read RAW data, and
watching everyone demonstrate things with JPEGs.  JPEGs are elastic toy
candy jokes.  They don't matter in my world.
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Thomas T. Veldhouse - 06 Apr 2006 15:06 GMT
> Lets see some evidence.  RAW files, viewed RAW, not in a converter.

No such thing.  The data is stored in a linear format of the bayer pattern.
It needs to be converted to the non-linear format that your eyes see.  It must
have whitebalance and other settings applied before it can be displayed.

> Blackframes, from both at various ISO settings, and "grey scales", shot
> with the same f-stop and shutter speed.  Resolution tests at high ISO;
> same t-mount lens on both cameras.

As you also know, each model digital camera has a slightly different rendition
of a particular ISO setting.  Some ISO 200 settings actually represent ISO 180
for instance.

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JPS@no.komm - 06 Apr 2006 21:50 GMT
>> Lets see some evidence.  RAW files, viewed RAW, not in a converter.
>
>No such thing.  The data is stored in a linear format of the bayer pattern.
>It needs to be converted to the non-linear format that your eyes see.  It must
>have whitebalance and other settings applied before it can be displayed.

I look at RAW data all the time.  You can display RAW data in many ways.
You can look at the greyscale RAW bitmap, interpolate color, or just
color the greyscale based on the CFA element.  You can leave it linear
or apply gamma, you can WB or choose not to, but if you apply the same
rules to all cameras tested, you are still comparing them on equal RAW
ground in most ways (or any difference can be clearly revealed).

>> Blackframes, from both at various ISO settings, and "grey scales", shot
>> with the same f-stop and shutter speed.  Resolution tests at high ISO;
>> same t-mount lens on both cameras.

>As you also know, each model digital camera has a slightly different rendition
>of a particular ISO setting.  Some ISO 200 settings actually represent ISO 180
>for instance.

Which is exactly why I suggest the same f-stop and shutter speed,
preferably metered externally.  I don't care what the noise in a
specific camera is like at "ISO 1600" if it's actually metering for ISO
993.

Of course, this does not apply to the blackframes.  Blackframe noise
exists relative to the maximum RAW value, which may vary in actual ISO
value with a fixed standard highlight headroom; the headroom should be
stated as a test result, or the ISO at a given headroom (3.2 stops above
average metered seems to be the RAW standard).
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burnsdavidj@yahoo.com - 04 Apr 2006 15:31 GMT
I'm sure the D70 / D70s owners are happy about that...

For ~25% less pixels the noise SHOULD be lower than Canon's. With the
D50 Nikon had to improve the noise issue, if only to compensate for the
lack of ISO 100. If I was just shooting jpegs and I wanted pictures out
the camera, the D50 makes alot of sense. But its   really at the bottom
of the DSLR body range.

Now if we want to talk about impressive Nikon noise performance,
Nikon's D200 noise apparently is very good given its 20% more pixels
than the XT/20D/30D sensor. Noiser than the 30D, but not by much and
the camera pushes the resolution / fps envelop.
JPS@no.komm - 04 Apr 2006 22:23 GMT
>Nikon's D200 noise apparently is very good given its 20% more pixels
>than the XT/20D/30D sensor. Noiser than the 30D, but not by much and
>the camera pushes the resolution / fps envelop.

I'd like to see some real RAW data tests.  Converters and camera-JPEGs
tell a distorted story.
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ian lincoln - 05 Apr 2006 01:07 GMT
>>Nikon's D200 noise apparently is very good given its 20% more pixels
>>than the XT/20D/30D sensor. Noiser than the 30D, but not by much and
>>the camera pushes the resolution / fps envelop.
>
> I'd like to see some real RAW data tests.  Converters and camera-JPEGs
> tell a distorted story.

you're better off devoting your energies to taking more pictures.  Join a
club.
JPS@no.komm - 05 Apr 2006 02:12 GMT
>>>Nikon's D200 noise apparently is very good given its 20% more pixels
>>>than the XT/20D/30D sensor. Noiser than the 30D, but not by much and
>>>the camera pushes the resolution / fps envelop.
>>
>> I'd like to see some real RAW data tests.  Converters and camera-JPEGs
>> tell a distorted story.

>you're better off devoting your energies to taking more pictures.

I've already taken far too many pictures.  I have about a Terabyte's
worth from the last 4 years.

I am trying to get right at the heart of the matter, as is my nature. If
you don't like it, and prefer the "being dumb is cool" world, killfile
me.

>Join a
>club.

I joined a club, and then I left.  It was too much like church, and it
was really annoying watching judges give high awards to photos of
raptors taken from 2 feet away at a raptor show, B&W photos with one
object colored in, and clouds swirled in circles in Photoshop behind the
Grand Tetons and the Eiffel Tower.
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ian lincoln - 05 Apr 2006 10:16 GMT
>>>>Nikon's D200 noise apparently is very good given its 20% more pixels
>>>>than the XT/20D/30D sensor. Noiser than the 30D, but not by much and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I've already taken far too many pictures.  I have about a Terabyte's
> worth from the last 4 years.

If you have already taken 'far too many' then what are you worried about?

> I am trying to get right at the heart of the matter, as is my nature. If
> you don't like it, and prefer the "being dumb is cool" world, killfile
> me.

Taking pictures rather than sitting in and stressing over test charts isn't
dumb.  It was also meant as friendly advice not a complaint.

>>Join a
>>club.
>
> I joined a club, and then I left.  It was too much like church,

unlike the word according to jps? "thou shalt not use jpegs.  Do not take
the quick and easy jpeg path, the path of RAW is that of the righteous"

and it
> was really annoying watching judges give high awards to photos of
> raptors taken from 2 feet away at a raptor show, B&W photos with one
> object colored in, and clouds swirled in circles in Photoshop behind the
> Grand Tetons and the Eiffel Tower.

your definitely attending the wrong clubs.  If you can tell its been
photoshopped then you will get marked down.  Digital manipulation for the
sake of it and to show how good you are at it is pointless.  Unless it adds
something to the picture and the composition forget about it.  you don't get
a guaranteed winner just because it is a technically difficult shot either.
Then again if its technically flawed it won't win either.  properly trained
judges are not easily pleased.
Jeremy Nixon - 05 Apr 2006 01:25 GMT
>> Nikon's D200 noise apparently is very good given its 20% more pixels
>> than the XT/20D/30D sensor. Noiser than the 30D, but not by much and
>> the camera pushes the resolution / fps envelop.
>
> I'd like to see some real RAW data tests.  Converters and camera-JPEGs
> tell a distorted story.

If you need those kinds of tests to see the difference, then there is no
difference.

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JPS@no.komm - 05 Apr 2006 02:18 GMT
>>> Nikon's D200 noise apparently is very good given its 20% more pixels
>>> than the XT/20D/30D sensor. Noiser than the 30D, but not by much and
>>> the camera pushes the resolution / fps envelop.

>> I'd like to see some real RAW data tests.  Converters and camera-JPEGs
>> tell a distorted story.

>>If you need those kinds of tests to see the difference, then there is no
>difference.

JPEGs out of the camera *TRASH* shadows, routinely.

What you're talking about is kigh-key, well-exposed high ISO shots. They
don't vary much from DSLR to DSLR; that's a given.  The differences come
in when ISO 1600 isn't really enough, and that's what really needs to be
tested to compare cameras in low light.

I really don't know where people get the idea that photography that
requires low-light shooting is so extreme or unusual.  On an overcast
day, in the middle of the day, I am already at ISO 1600; going into a
covered area, ISO 1600 is already not sensitive enough to get a good
exposure.  Same with walking around the city at night.  Under-exposure
at 1600 is very important to some people.
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Jeremy Nixon - 05 Apr 2006 03:25 GMT
> JPEGs out of the camera *TRASH* shadows, routinely.

Well, yes.  JPEG is something you go to for final output on-screen; I
don't go there before that stage.  I've got some scripts to batch-generate
JPEGs in Photoshop for various purposes, and that's about it.

> I really don't know where people get the idea that photography that
> requires low-light shooting is so extreme or unusual.

Well, it is both extreme and unusual; extreme in that it pushes the
equipment, and unusual in that most people don't do it.  Just the other
day I was looking around for people doing the kind of street shooting
I've been doing lately, wanting to see what others were doing to get
inspiration and motivation and such.  I couldn't find anyone doing it,
at least not anyone who has their stuff online.  Though since I don't
have *my* stuff online yet, I shouldn't complain. :)  But I'd be very
interested to see nighttime street shooting, if anyone does that other
than me.

> On an overcast day, in the middle of the day, I am already at ISO 1600;
> going into a covered area, ISO 1600 is already not sensitive enough to
> get a good exposure.  Same with walking around the city at night.

Walking around the city at night is exactly what I've been doing a lot
of lately, so I'm pretty familiar with low-light shooting.  I worried
about underexposure at high ISO until I came to the realization that
when the light is that low, it generally sucks anyway, and when the
light sucks, the picture sucks, no matter how much light there happens
to be or how interesting the subject is.

In practice I haven't had to go above ISO 800, and that only rarely.
There *have* been times when I wanted a shot and couldn't get it due
to the light level, but I was wishing for better light, not higher
sensitivity.  There was one this past weekend where I did get the
shot, but an extra stop of sensitivity would have come in handy (I
don't bother with ISO 1600 since it's a digital push), but I'm not
going to lose any sleep over it.  I was using a 35mm f/2, so I could
have achieved what I wanted with a 35/1.4, I just don't happen to
have one.

> Under-exposure at 1600 is very important to some people.

Under-exposure at 1600 (or 800, probably more usefully, since it
wouldn't have the digital push, at least on my camera) is interesting
to me because of what it can tell you about the camera and sensor
and the revelations about what could be done to make them better.
Actually shooting that way, not so much, at least not until they
improve the image quality -- which, as you've pointed out many times,
can have as much to do with the raw conversion as anything else, a
fact that makes it frustrating since at that point it's just a matter
of better conversion software and/or camera firmware.

I suspect the fact that the software developers like Adobe aren't
concentrating effort in that area has to do with the fact that the
kind of low-light shooting we're talking about is both extreme and
unusual, so customer demand tends to focus on other areas.  (It
becomes tiresome to see so many people yelling about Camera Raw
not matching the in-camera JPEGs by default, as if I'm supposed to
care what an in-camera JPEG would look like.)

Even so, it's vanishingly rare that I find myself actually wishing
even for ISO 1600 in actual practice.  Of course, for street shooting
I tend to leave lenses slower than f/2 at home.  If you're trying to
do it with an f/4.5-5.6 lens or something, that's different, but at
that point you're using the wrong equipment anyhow.

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Paul Furman - 05 Apr 2006 07:53 GMT
>>JPEGs out of the camera *TRASH* shadows, routinely.
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> interested to see nighttime street shooting, if anyone does that other
> than me.

I do:
<http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=California/Bay-Area/San-Francisco/gritty>
I also shoot in the forest a lot & that's tough too.
I use ISO 1600 often, no lenses faster than 2.8.

>>On an overcast day, in the middle of the day, I am already at ISO 1600;
>>going into a covered area, ISO 1600 is already not sensitive enough to
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> do it with an f/4.5-5.6 lens or something, that's different, but at
> that point you're using the wrong equipment anyhow.
Marc Sabatella - 05 Apr 2006 17:28 GMT
> But I'd be very
> interested to see nighttime street shooting, if anyone does that other
> than me.

I do a little bit, but I haven't put anything online formally, either.
I'm getting close to the point of feeling ready; now it's mostly a
matter of finding time to set it up.  But since the subject came up,
you've inspired me to start the ball rolling.  Here is a recent night
shot of Denver's Union Station I like.  I took it with an old manual
135/2.8 lens on my Pentax *istDS, so the EXIF info isn't complete, but
it was f2.8 at ISO1600 with a shutter speed of 1/250:

http://www.outsideshore.com/marc/photo/us1_screen.jpg

Realistically, of course, this scene had more light available than many
other night scene might, but even so, I almost certainly wouldn't have
done as well with my basic (slow) telephoto zoom.  Which is too bad, as
I'd have prefered to take this at a *slightly* wider angle.  But the
next wider prime I have is a 50, which would have been far too wide.  On
the other hand, with a monopod, I probably could have hand-held this a
stop or two slower.  I just didn't happen to have it with me - I parked
a couple of blocks away and just ran over to the spot where I had driven
by and noticed the scene.  Plus, I knew I wanted it a little
underexposed to better capture the contrast between dark and light.
Actually, in general, I prefer all my night shots underexposed comapred
to what my camera's meter recommends.  It*s *night*, after all - it's
*supposed* to be dark.

>> On an overcast day, in the middle of the day, I am already at ISO
>> 1600;
>> going into a covered area, ISO 1600 is already not sensitive enough
>> to
>> get a good exposure.

Well, it is with a sufficiently fast lens, but I do continue to be
surprised by just how little light there can be outdoors in the middle
of the day if the conditions so conspire.  I've definitely used ISO800
and still needed a monopod to steady my shot with my telephoto zoom.

> Walking around the city at night is exactly what I've been doing a lot
> of lately, so I'm pretty familiar with low-light shooting.  I worried
> about underexposure at high ISO until I came to the realization that
> when the light is that low, it generally sucks anyway, and when the
> light sucks, the picture sucks, no matter how much light there happens
> to be or how interesting the subject is.

In general, I think almost any image is better than no image, which is
why I'm still happy enough with my basic (slow) telephoto zoom, and why
if the sitution requires, I'll even go to ISO3200.  But I think you're
saying that light that low is usually uninteresting light, meaning it
would make for an uninteresting picture even if exposure and sharpness
could somehow be brought up to par.  I suppose that is often true, but
not universally enough that I'm willing to write off.

> Even so, it's vanishingly rare that I find myself actually wishing
> even for ISO 1600 in actual practice.  Of course, for street shooting
> I tend to leave lenses slower than f/2 at home.  If you're trying to
> do it with an f/4.5-5.6 lens or something, that's different, but at
> that point you're using the wrong equipment anyhow.

True, but here's where my "almost any image is better than no image"
philosophy comes in.  Sure, most of the shots I get with the slow zoom
are tossers, but it's worth it for the ones that work.  Eventually I'll
get more fast lenses, but at least I can get some decent shots off in
the meantime.

---------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

Music, art,  & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Jeremy Nixon - 05 Apr 2006 22:02 GMT
> In general, I think almost any image is better than no image, which is
> why I'm still happy enough with my basic (slow) telephoto zoom, and why
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> could somehow be brought up to par.  I suppose that is often true, but
> not universally enough that I'm willing to write off.

I guess I come more from the opposite direction -- a mediocre picture
that "could have been great if only..." is still just a mediocre picture.

There are always shots I wish I could get, but can't.  There's not enough
light; the light is bad; I don't have the right equipment with me, or at
all; the subject is 100 yards away and I can't get there in time; the
vantage point I wanted turns out to be in the middle of the Ohio River.
I've had all of the above (okay, that last one only once) and my response
is always the same: move on.  If I can't get the shot I can't get the shot.

(I'm not shooting spot-news, where indeed any image is better than none.)

Of course, sometimes you try the shot anyway.  I mean, it might work out.
But usually it ends up on the proverbial editing room floor.

My would-have-been-favorite shot of this past weekend was blown because
I tried to focus on a window, trusted the autofocus sensor, and it decided
to focus on something just behind the window, which at f/1.4 is "game over".
I didn't notice until I got home.  Editing room floor.  No excuses.  Dammit,
how long do we have to wait until *someone* makes a decent focusing screen
for the D2x?  I wasn't even using an autofocus lens! :)

> True, but here's where my "almost any image is better than no image"
> philosophy comes in.  Sure, most of the shots I get with the slow zoom
> are tossers, but it's worth it for the ones that work.  Eventually I'll
> get more fast lenses, but at least I can get some decent shots off in
> the meantime.

I don't even bring 'em with me, lest I be tempted.  When all you have is
a few fixed-length lenses, you see the world through them.

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Thomas T. Veldhouse - 06 Apr 2006 15:02 GMT
> The D50 is about as bare-bones a DSLR as anyone would want to buy.
> Aside from the physical body and lack of spot metering, the 350D meets
> or exceeds all of the D70s' features.

If you ask me, spot metering is a big deal. The camera feel is another.  I
have large hands and holding to the XT was sort of a clumsy feel.  The D70 (I
don't have the D70s) has a nice feel and is a solid camera.  The XT feels sort
of "plastic" to me.

> Mr Bolshoyhuy, you should be shopping for a lens mount, not a camera.
> If you want to use Nikon lenses, but are a bit cash strapped for the
> moment, a D50 still makes sense! However, if you're just looking for
> 'best camera for the $', the Pentax is probably the best choice, or
> maybe even something from Olympus.

There is more to it than that.  You can get decent lenses for either system.
If you aren't committed yet, then you should make your choice based upon
larger issues, such as overall price, flash system, feel, usability,
durability, features ... yada yada.

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