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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / April 2006

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Why upgrade from a D70 to a D200?

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BobF@nospam.com - 01 Apr 2006 01:40 GMT
My friend just upgraded from his D70 to a D200... he encouraged me to do the
same...

Can anyone tell me any BIG reasons to do this?

Right now I'm reading over the reviews... so much data...

Bottom line - will I get better pics?

Thanks!

PS    Is the Canon 20D better then the Nikon D70?
cjcampbell - 01 Apr 2006 01:57 GMT
> My friend just upgraded from his D70 to a D200... he encouraged me to do the
> same...
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Bottom line - will I get better pics?

Bottom line? No. If you are a good photographer, the D200 will allow
you to take good pictures with more artistic control. If you are a bad
photographer, nothing can save you.

> Thanks!
>
> PS    Is the Canon 20D better then the Nikon D70?

Hah hah. April fool.
w.beckley@gmail.com - 01 Apr 2006 08:09 GMT
"PS    Is the Canon 20D better then the Nikon D70? "

I have found it to be, having made exactly that transition about 9
months ago, but I base that solely on two factors:

1.) The large thumbwheel that Canon uses for aperture control and the
index-finger scroller for shutter make more intuative sense to me than
Nikon's (very similar but tactilely different) way of doing it. I work
about 66% faster with the Canon. I think some people are wired one way
and some the other, and this is really just a preference thing.

2.) I've found that Canon has vastly better high-ISO performance, and
that's extremely helpful to about half of what I do.

As for your original question: having not used the D200, I couldn't
say. I hear it has better noise than the D70 at high ISOs, which I
imagine could help. And the megapixel difference from 6 to 8.2 with the
20D has been of great use to me; I can only imagine the jump upwards of
10 would be even more useful.

I made the transition because I was unhappy with how I'd invested in
Nikon regarding lenses and I was looking at a total overhaul anyway. I
wanted to be on a path that could lead to full frame, and Nikon didn't
seem to be making any promises. That said, I'm glad I made the jump, if
only for the two reasons stated above.

Will
Greg - 01 Apr 2006 12:50 GMT
>  I wanted to be on a path that could lead to full frame,

> Will

& of course Full frame now has
no bearing or relevance to anything.
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Rita Ä Berkowitz - 01 Apr 2006 13:14 GMT
> & of course Full frame now has
> no bearing or relevance to anything.

That's exactly why nobody should buy a camera till 2x frame is introduced.
This Full frame and APS sensor format nonsense is simply for beginners and
money shouldn't be wasted on it.

Rita
default - 02 Apr 2006 02:20 GMT
The 2x frame is here:
http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2107

The Mamiya ZD has a 48x36 frame, exactly double film size.
It also has 22 megapixels, and a good selection of lenses and similiar form
factor to a 35mm slr.  Why bother with the tiny full frame cameras anymore?

> That's exactly why nobody should buy a camera till 2x frame is introduced.
> This Full frame and APS sensor format nonsense is simply for beginners and
> money shouldn't be wasted on it.
>
> Rita
Greg - 02 Apr 2006 02:38 GMT
> The 2x frame is here:
> http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2107
>
> The Mamiya ZD has a 48x36 frame, exactly double film size.
> It also has 22 megapixels, and a good selection of lenses and similiar form
> factor to a 35mm slr.  Why bother with the tiny full frame cameras anymore?

Its 7k buddy- and what's more that 48 is supposed to imitate MF which by
the way is not 2x "film " size, especially when one is regular shooting
sheets  200mm x 250mm.
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Robert - 02 Apr 2006 04:24 GMT
> > The 2x frame is here:
> > http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2107
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Its 7k buddy- and what's more that 48 is supposed to imitate MF which by

7k Pounds or ~12,000 Dollars, buddy.

> the way is not 2x "film " size, especially when one is regular shooting
> sheets  200mm x 250mm.
> --
> Carry me caravan take me away, take me to Portugal take me to Spain,Andalucia with fields full grain. I have to see you again and again.
www.gregblankphoto.com
w.beckley@gmail.com - 02 Apr 2006 06:50 GMT
Well, maybe it's supposed to imitate medium format, but it isn't quite
there yet. 645, the medium format it purports to imitate, is so called
because it is supposed to be 60mm by 45mm. In practice, it is closer to
56mm by 42mm. Which is not the same as 48mm by 36mm. You get a 1.2 crop
factor on that camera, not like that's going to break you.

Meanwhile, the original poster, in calling it "double film size" was
right on with regards to the 24x36 size of 35mm film. Which I agree
should have been specified given the fact that "film" alone denotes
nothing with regard to format size.

Will
Jeremy Nixon - 02 Apr 2006 13:27 GMT
> The 2x frame is here:
> http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2107

A toy for dull children.

Real photographers wouldn't use anything less than full-frame 8x10.
Until Nikon and Canon get that into their cameras, they will be little
more than a curiosity.

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Roy Smith - 02 Apr 2006 14:07 GMT
> > The 2x frame is here:
> > http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2107
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Until Nikon and Canon get that into their cameras, they will be little
> more than a curiosity.

I'm guessing we'll see these on deep-sky telescopes.  When your camera
costs $100,000,000 to build, you don't skimp on the film :-)
Randy Howard - 14 Apr 2006 20:18 GMT
default wrote
(in article <SFFXf.213486$B94.100893@pd7tw3no>):

> The 2x frame is here:
> http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2107
>
> The Mamiya ZD has a 48x36 frame, exactly double film size.
> It also has 22 megapixels, and a good selection of lenses and similiar form
> factor to a 35mm slr.  Why bother with the tiny full frame cameras anymore?

Because it hasn't been released yet.

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w.beckley@gmail.com - 02 Apr 2006 06:42 GMT
By "no bearing or relevance to anything" are you simply ignoring both
depth of field and intuition?

I know what a 35mm lens will get me on 35mm film without looking
through the camera. Same with 24, 50, and 85. To me, that's useful.

More importantly, APS sensors don't get the kind of shallow depth of
field that I both want and am accustomed to. And I enjoy the (observed)
increases in dynamic range when the pixel pitch doesn't have to be so
tight.

So it is partially just habit, and partially actual limitations of
other chip sizes. But both are extremely important to me and no, I
wouldn't say I based my purchasing on a factor that has "no bearing or
relevance." Maybe not for you, but you are not all photographers.

Will
Randy Howard - 14 Apr 2006 20:18 GMT
Greg \_\ wrote
(in article
<grey_egg-FD78BB.06500801042006@news.isp.giganews.com>):

>> I wanted to be on a path that could lead to full frame,
>
>> Will
>
> & of course Full frame now has
> no bearing or relevance to anything.

wow, I completely disagree.

I am now wondering what to do, as I have a once great lens, the
AFS 17-35mm 2.8, which is now basically a boat anchor since I
switched from the F5 to digital.  It's still a nice lens, but
doesn't provide me with a true wide-angle capability.

I am trying to decide how to proceed.  I could drop $1K on a
12-24, wait (possibly forever, since Nikon doesn't make their
own CCD's like Canon) for a full-frame digital from them, or
just give up and switch to Canon now.

I don't really WANT to switch, since I know I'll take a bath on
glass, as I have a lot of very high-dollar (at least when new)
Nikon lenses, but the slower 12-24 doesnt' sound that appealing,
has some nasty barrel distortion issues which can be fixed for
the most part in photoshop, but still, and I'd really like to
have full-frame CCD instead.

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who have not got it."  - George Bernard Shaw

Rita Ä Berkowitz - 14 Apr 2006 20:47 GMT
> I am now wondering what to do, as I have a once great lens, the
> AFS 17-35mm 2.8, which is now basically a boat anchor since I
> switched from the F5 to digital.  It's still a nice lens, but
> doesn't provide me with a true wide-angle capability.

Why for Christ's sake would you call the AFS 17-35 f/2.8 a "boat anchor?"
You won't get a better lens in or near that range.  When I was considering
getting the 17-55mm f/2.8 DX lens I opted to buy two "boat anchors" instead.
I bought both the 17-35mm and 28-70mm f/2.8 AFS instead of the DX format
17-55mm since both of these lenses are far superior to the new 17-55mm.

> I am trying to decide how to proceed.  I could drop $1K on a
> 12-24, wait (possibly forever, since Nikon doesn't make their
> own CCD's like Canon) for a full-frame digital from them, or
> just give up and switch to Canon now.

Getting a 12-24 wouldn't be bad to carry around for occasional use, but you
sure as hell aren't going to miss it if it is not in your bag, I know I
don't.

> I don't really WANT to switch, since I know I'll take a bath on
> glass, as I have a lot of very high-dollar (at least when new)
> Nikon lenses, but the slower 12-24 doesnt' sound that appealing,
> has some nasty barrel distortion issues which can be fixed for
> the most part in photoshop, but still, and I'd really like to
> have full-frame CCD instead.

Buy a Canon 5D and you won't have to worry any more if FF is something you
can't live without.  If you have some decent Nikon glass then buy the 12-24
and let it collect dust in your bag..

Rita
Randy Howard - 14 Apr 2006 21:38 GMT
Rita Ä Berkowitz wrote
(in article <123vv3ot7g54k15@news.supernews.com>):

>> I am now wondering what to do, as I have a once great lens, the
>> AFS 17-35mm 2.8, which is now basically a boat anchor since I
>> switched from the F5 to digital.  It's still a nice lens, but
>> doesn't provide me with a true wide-angle capability.
>
> Why for Christ's sake would you call the AFS 17-35 f/2.8 a "boat anchor?"

I thought the "doesn't provide me with a true wide-angle
capability" above would have made that abundantly clear.  I'm
not saying the lens isn't a good lens, I'm saying that it isn't
a wide-angle.  Don't get your panties in a wad.  I didn't say
that your baby is ugly.

> You won't get a better lens in or near that range.  

I don't disagree.  The problem is, without a full-frame CCD,
that "range" isn't what it once was.

> When I was considering
> getting the 17-55mm f/2.8 DX lens I opted to buy two "boat anchors" instead.
> I bought both the 17-35mm and 28-70mm f/2.8 AFS instead of the DX format
> 17-55mm since both of these lenses are far superior to the new 17-55mm.

Those are both nice lenses, although a mid-range zoom like
28-70mm doesn't do anything useful as far as I am concerned on a
sub-frame CCD digital camera.  I'd like, just as I originally
said, a true wide-angle shooting capability on a digital body.  
The 17-35, although an outstanding piece of glass, doesn't
provide me with that.

>> I am trying to decide how to proceed.  I could drop $1K on a
>> 12-24, wait (possibly forever, since Nikon doesn't make their
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> sure as hell aren't going to miss it if it is not in your bag, I know I
> don't.

Then I guess we shoot differently, because I miss something like
it every day.  If I was a wedding photographer or a bird watcher
I'm sure I'd feel differently.

>> I don't really WANT to switch, since I know I'll take a bath on
>> glass, as I have a lot of very high-dollar (at least when new)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> can't live without.  If you have some decent Nikon glass then buy the 12-24
> and let it collect dust in your bag..

Where I was originally heading was wondering if Nikon had a
full-frame body in the pipeline, in which case I would just wait
for it, and then the 17-35 would once again be the lens almost
"permanently mounted" on the camera.  

If I stick with Nikon as is, then the 12-24 wouldn't collect
dust, although I'd much prefer to have a f/2.8 than an f/4.  So
again, a full-frame answer would be the best for me.

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Rita Ä Berkowitz - 14 Apr 2006 22:21 GMT
> I thought the "doesn't provide me with a true wide-angle
> capability" above would have made that abundantly clear.  I'm
> not saying the lens isn't a good lens, I'm saying that it isn't
> a wide-angle.  Don't get your panties in a wad.  I didn't say
> that your baby is ugly.

There's nothing wadded up over here.  I guess your terminology of "boat
anchor" is what gave me the impression that it is an obsolete piece of junk.
Yes, it's a good lens and it is what it is on an APS-C sized sensor.

>> You won't get a better lens in or near that range.
>
> I don't disagree.  The problem is, without a full-frame CCD,
> that "range" isn't what it once was.

I agree, but it all boils down to you got to work with what you got or buy
new tools that will do the job.  If Nikon comes out with an FF than I'll be
ready.  If Nikon doesn't then I really don't care since I'll work with what
I got.

>> When I was considering
>> getting the 17-55mm f/2.8 DX lens I opted to buy two "boat anchors"
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> The 17-35, although an outstanding piece of glass, doesn't
> provide me with that.

Then a 12-24mm to supplement what you got isn't an unreasonable option.
Yes, it's not f/2.8 but I'm sure you can work around that problem quit
easily.

>> Getting a 12-24 wouldn't be bad to carry around for occasional use,
>> but you sure as hell aren't going to miss it if it is not in your
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> it every day.  If I was a wedding photographer or a bird watcher
> I'm sure I'd feel differently.

Again, it's all about using the right tools for the job.  If your livelihood
depends on your tools and you need to be that wide then get a 5D and make
the best of it.

>> Buy a Canon 5D and you won't have to worry any more if FF is
>> something you can't live without.  If you have some decent Nikon
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> for it, and then the 17-35 would once again be the lens almost
> "permanently mounted" on the camera.

I wouldn't get overly excited about an FF Nikon.  If they come out with one,
great, if not, oh well.

> If I stick with Nikon as is, then the 12-24 wouldn't collect
> dust, although I'd much prefer to have a f/2.8 than an f/4.  So
> again, a full-frame answer would be the best for me.

My advice would be to hunt for a used one on eBay for a great price.  Use it
till you get sick of it or Nikon comes out with FF and sell it for more than
you paid for it.

Rita
Randy Howard - 15 Apr 2006 04:14 GMT
Rita Ä Berkowitz wrote
(in article <12404iq4qe2p813@news.supernews.com>):

>> I thought the "doesn't provide me with a true wide-angle
>> capability" above would have made that abundantly clear.  I'm
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> There's nothing wadded up over here.  I guess your terminology of "boat
> anchor" is what gave me the impression that it is an obsolete piece of junk.

I specifically used the words "great lens" in my original post
about it.  :-)

>>> You won't get a better lens in or near that range.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I agree, but it all boils down to you got to work with what you got or buy
> new tools that will do the job.  

I'm obviously aware of that, since I listed off several
different approaches (all involving spending money) to solve it.
> Then a 12-24mm to supplement what you got isn't an unreasonable option.
> Yes, it's not f/2.8 but I'm sure you can work around that problem quit
> easily.

That's probably going to be where I wind up, yes.

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Thomas T. Veldhouse - 17 Apr 2006 13:44 GMT
> Where I was originally heading was wondering if Nikon had a
> full-frame body in the pipeline, in which case I would just wait
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> dust, although I'd much prefer to have a f/2.8 than an f/4.  So
> again, a full-frame answer would be the best for me.

Out of curiosity, what scenario would you typically shoot that would require <
f/4 for a wide angle lens?  I think that most of the time you would be
shooting at least f/8 or f/16 if you are doing landscape or architecture.

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Randy Howard - 17 Apr 2006 16:25 GMT
Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote
(in article <44438dbf$0$717$8046368a@newsreader.iphouse.net>):

>> Where I was originally heading was wondering if Nikon had a
>> full-frame body in the pipeline, in which case I would just wait
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> f/4 for a wide angle lens?  I think that most of the time you would be
> shooting at least f/8 or f/16 if you are doing landscape or architecture.

I became spoiled with f/2.8 for one thing, I have to admit that.
More to the point though, on occasion I have taken to using a
wide angle for certain subjects that would normally be shot with
a longer lens fairly close up and shooting wide open to blur out
the background a fair amount.  I never really though of using a
wide for that to be honest, but I saw an article by John Shaw
(IIRC) about it years ago and I really liked the results.

Admittedly it's not an emergency to have something faster than
f/4, but it I would prefer, just as most seem to prefer a faster
lens when it is available.

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Thomas T. Veldhouse - 17 Apr 2006 17:26 GMT
> I became spoiled with f/2.8 for one thing, I have to admit that.
> More to the point though, on occasion I have taken to using a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> wide for that to be honest, but I saw an article by John Shaw
> (IIRC) about it years ago and I really liked the results.

If you shoot wide angle and close up ... your subject better be VERY thin with
absolutely no depth if you are shooting at f/2.8.  VERY VERY thin.

> Admittedly it's not an emergency to have something faster than
> f/4, but it I would prefer, just as most seem to prefer a faster
> lens when it is available.

I dare say that if you get close to a human face and focus on the nose with
f/2.8 at 12mm, you will likely find the eyes out of focus.  Perhaps the
subject is a pimple ;)

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Randy Howard - 17 Apr 2006 18:28 GMT
Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote
(in article <4443c1c8$0$273$8046368a@newsreader.iphouse.net>):

>> I became spoiled with f/2.8 for one thing, I have to admit that.
>> More to the point though, on occasion I have taken to using a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> If you shoot wide angle and close up ... your subject better be VERY thin with
> absolutely no depth if you are shooting at f/2.8.  VERY VERY thin.

I don't disagree.

>> Admittedly it's not an emergency to have something faster than
>> f/4, but it I would prefer, just as most seem to prefer a faster
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> f/2.8 at 12mm, you will likely find the eyes out of focus.  Perhaps the
> subject is a pimple ;)

I thought I said earlier that I do very, very little portrait
photography, and almost none of it with a wide-angle anyway.

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Thomas T. Veldhouse - 17 Apr 2006 18:58 GMT
>> I dare say that if you get close to a human face and focus on the nose with
>> f/2.8 at 12mm, you will likely find the eyes out of focus.  Perhaps the
>> subject is a pimple ;)
>
> I thought I said earlier that I do very, very little portrait
> photography, and almost none of it with a wide-angle anyway.

Good, then I saved you some money :)  You don't need a wide angle that is as
fast as f/2.8 :)

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Randy Howard - 17 Apr 2006 19:34 GMT
Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote
(in article <4443d732$0$732$8046368a@newsreader.iphouse.net>):

>>> I dare say that if you get close to a human face and focus on the nose with
>>> f/2.8 at 12mm, you will likely find the eyes out of focus.  Perhaps the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Good, then I saved you some money :)  You don't need a wide angle that is as
> fast as f/2.8 :)

Incorrect.  Just because I don't do portrait photography, that
doesn't have anything to do with what I wrote before.  

FWIW, John Shaw, who I mentioned before, is an outdoor
photographer who is relatively well-known and has written
several books on various topics.  Why this got turned into
"people pictures" I have no idea.  :-)

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Thomas T. Veldhouse - 17 Apr 2006 20:06 GMT
> Incorrect.  Just because I don't do portrait photography, that
> doesn't have anything to do with what I wrote before.  

You wrote this:
"More to the point though, on occasion I have taken to using a
wide angle for certain subjects that would normally be shot with
a longer lens fairly close up"

It was that statement that indicated to me that f/2.8 would not be of any
benefit to you for wide angle photography.  Clearly the wider the angle, the
more depth of field.  It did not seem to me that you really indicated a reason
that you needed a f/2.8 as opposed to f/4, but at this point, I will take your
word on it.

> FWIW, John Shaw, who I mentioned before, is an outdoor
> photographer who is relatively well-known and has written
> several books on various topics.  Why this got turned into
> "people pictures" I have no idea.  :-)

I know who Jack Shaw is.  I have a couple of his books, as his photographs are
quite inspirational.  I read your quote above as meaning portraits in some
form or another and I just made an example about a "people" portrait, but in
fact there are many types of portraits.

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Randy Howard - 17 Apr 2006 20:17 GMT
Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote
(in article <4443e72e$0$718$8046368a@newsreader.iphouse.net>):

>> FWIW, John Shaw, who I mentioned before, is an outdoor
>> photographer who is relatively well-known and has written
>> several books on various topics.  Why this got turned into
>> "people pictures" I have no idea.  :-)
>
> I know who Jack Shaw is.

If you knew his name was John I would be more inclined to
believe you.  :-)

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Thomas T. Veldhouse - 18 Apr 2006 14:36 GMT
>> I know who Jack Shaw is.
>
> If you knew his name was John I would be more inclined to
> believe you.  :-)

Well, I do know and I am not sure where I got Jack from.  Still, Jack is often
short for John (odd use of words considering they are both four letters :),
but never the less, my brain picked it from somewhere ... or just had a
glitch.

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Bill - 14 Apr 2006 22:46 GMT
>I am now wondering what to do, as I have a once great lens, the
>AFS 17-35mm 2.8, which is now basically a boat anchor
>
>I am trying to decide how to proceed.

Let me help you decide...

Stop by FedEx and send that boat anchor to me. It'll be a difficult and
trying period which I know you'll be glad to avoid, but I promise I'll
find a use for it.

:-)
Greg - 15 Apr 2006 12:35 GMT
> > & of course Full frame now has
> > no bearing or relevance to anything.
>
> wow, I completely disagree.

Too bad, maybe because your more concern about the
equipment versus what you put within the four corners
of your image area?
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Randy Howard - 15 Apr 2006 14:59 GMT
Greg \_\ wrote
(in article
<grey_egg-5E32AA.07390615042006@news.isp.giganews.com>):

>>> & of course Full frame now has
>>> no bearing or relevance to anything.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> equipment versus what you put within the four corners
> of your image area?

If you refuse to admit the need for a wide-angle lens, then I
see no point in arguing with you.

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Greg - 15 Apr 2006 16:11 GMT
> Greg \_\ wrote
> (in article
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> If you refuse to admit the need for a wide-angle lens, then I
> see no point in arguing with you.

You shouldn't be striving to argue. I can use or not use wide angle
lenses with the D70. Its still inconsequential to what's within the 4
corners.
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Jeremy Nixon - 15 Apr 2006 23:04 GMT
> If you refuse to admit the need for a wide-angle lens, then I
> see no point in arguing with you.

I have a wide-angle lens.  It's not an issue.

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Paul Furman - 16 Apr 2006 00:10 GMT
> I am now wondering what to do, as I have a once great lens, the
> AFS 17-35mm 2.8, which is now basically a boat anchor since I
> switched from the F5 to digital.  It's still a nice lens, but
> doesn't provide me with a true wide-angle capability.

It's a great 'normal' zoom though. Give it to me if you don't want it
<g>. I never got the kit lens so I don't have anything in that range. I
did get the even slower Sigma full frame 12-24.
Old Man River - 09 Apr 2006 06:26 GMT
Ok, Will, what Nikkor lens do you want to sell?

Old Man River

> "PS    Is the Canon 20D better then the Nikon D70? "
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Will
Cynicor - 01 Apr 2006 13:26 GMT
> My friend just upgraded from his D70 to a D200... he encouraged me to do the
> same...
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Bottom line - will I get better pics?

What are you shooting? Vacation snapshots? Indoor sporting events? Jazz
concerts in low light?
BobF@nospam.com - 02 Apr 2006 03:37 GMT
>> My friend just upgraded from his D70 to a D200... he encouraged me to do the
>> same...
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>What are you shooting? Vacation snapshots? Indoor sporting events? Jazz
>concerts in low light?

Basically various 'snapshots' and flower pics, and railway pictures, but also
some product shots for my part time business.

I hear the D200 has a better viewfinder, that is important to me at my age as my
eyes are only getting worse!  Wish I could find one in the stores...
Cynicor - 02 Apr 2006 04:34 GMT
>>>My friend just upgraded from his D70 to a D200... he encouraged me to do the
>>>same...
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I hear the D200 has a better viewfinder, that is important to me at my age as my
> eyes are only getting worse!  Wish I could find one in the stores...

I have both. The viewfinder is definitely bigger on the D200. Are you
using a macro lens for the flower shots? I'm going to do some tomorrow
and see how they look.
BobF@nospam.com - 03 Apr 2006 02:41 GMT
>>>>My friend just upgraded from his D70 to a D200... he encouraged me to do the
>>>>same...
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>using a macro lens for the flower shots? I'm going to do some tomorrow
>and see how they look.

I don't have a macro for it yet, but I may get one... I've been using close up
filters.
Roger - 03 Apr 2006 21:29 GMT
>>>>>My friend just upgraded from his D70 to a D200... he encouraged me to do the
>>>>>same...
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>I don't have a macro for it yet, but I may get one... I've been using close up
>filters.

I picked up an AF Nikor 28-105 f3.5-4.5D Macro and it has turned out
to be the lens I have on the D70 most of the time.  It is, or was
quite a bit more expensive than the DX series.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
DoN. Nichols - 03 Apr 2006 22:34 GMT
According to Roger  <Delete-Invallid.stuff.groups@tm.net>:

    [ ... ]

> >I don't have a macro for it yet, but I may get one... I've been using close up
> >filters.
>
> I picked up an AF Nikor 28-105 f3.5-4.5D Macro and it has turned out
> to be the lens I have on the D70 most of the time.  It is, or was
> quite a bit more expensive than the DX series.

    That is the first lens which I used on my D70.  (I bought the
camera as body only, and only later got the 18-70mm "kit" lens for
better wide-angle coverage.

    It is a very nice lens for occasional macro work, with the only
drawback being that the lens shadows the built-in flash on the D70 at
the closest settings.  For that, I mount the SB-800 flash with the
diffuser dome pointed at an angle, and that does a reasonable job of
illuminating the subject at the closest focus.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.
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Paul Furman - 01 Apr 2006 18:01 GMT
> My friend just upgraded from his D70 to a D200... he encouraged me to do the
> same...
>
> Can anyone tell me any BIG reasons to do this?

I've begun printing at 13"x19" and could definitely use more pixels.
OTOH the file sizes will be a bear.

There are a few situations where mirror lockup would be nice.

The viewfinder is supposed to be bigger, that's actually quite important
though I don't know how much better it is without a side by side
comparison & there aren't any demo models in stores.

As I understand the noise is not much better but it handles blown
highlights more smoothly. The added pixels should be a real improvement
in image quality though.
JPS@no.komm - 01 Apr 2006 20:31 GMT
>As I understand the noise is not much better but it handles blown
>highlights more smoothly.

Are you using compressed NEF?  I've heard that part of the compression
includes more aggressive clipping of highlights.
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Paul Furman - 01 Apr 2006 21:32 GMT
>>As I understand the noise is not much better but it handles blown
>>highlights more smoothly.
>
> Are you using compressed NEF?  I've heard that part of the compression
> includes more aggressive clipping of highlights.

Ah, I wasn't aware D70 NEFs are compressed, so with the D200 that is
optional.
http://www.majid.info/mylos/weblog/2004/05/02-1.html
Robert Brace - 02 Apr 2006 03:39 GMT
>>As I understand the noise is not much better but it handles blown
>>highlights more smoothly.
>
> Are you using compressed NEF?  I've heard that part of the compression
> includes more aggressive clipping of highlights.
> ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><

Interesting!
Reports I've heard indicate the NEF compression is absolutely lossless and
is indistinguishable from the uncompressed NEF (except it is approx.1/2 the
size).
Bob
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 03 Apr 2006 13:50 GMT
>>As I understand the noise is not much better but it handles blown
>>highlights more smoothly.
>
> Are you using compressed NEF?  I've heard that part of the compression
> includes more aggressive clipping of highlights.

I think you have heard incorrectly, as the compression is a simple lossless
forumula.

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JPS@no.komm - 03 Apr 2006 22:14 GMT

>>>As I understand the noise is not much better but it handles blown
>>>highlights more smoothly.

>> Are you using compressed NEF?  I've heard that part of the compression
>> includes more aggressive clipping of highlights.

>I think you have heard incorrectly, as the compression is a simple lossless
>forumula.

For some cameras, maybe, but some have been shown to use 0 to 215 in
their original linear state, and then the rest of the range is
gamma-encoded in the file with less than 700 levels, and returned to
linear for the RAW converters.  The clipping part may or may not be
true.
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Thomas T. Veldhouse - 04 Apr 2006 13:33 GMT
> For some cameras, maybe, but some have been shown to use 0 to 215 in
> their original linear state, and then the rest of the range is
> gamma-encoded in the file with less than 700 levels, and returned to
> linear for the RAW converters.  The clipping part may or may not be
> true.

You may be correct, I have since read several articles.  Still, the format
doesn't allow for a "resave", so there is no risk of losing more data.  So,
what happens to image data when it is converted from a proprietary RAW format
to DNG?  

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JPS@no.komm - 04 Apr 2006 22:21 GMT
>> For some cameras, maybe, but some have been shown to use 0 to 215 in
>> their original linear state, and then the rest of the range is
>> gamma-encoded in the file with less than 700 levels, and returned to
>> linear for the RAW converters.  The clipping part may or may not be
>> true.

>You may be correct, I have since read several articles.  Still, the format
>doesn't allow for a "resave", so there is no risk of losing more data.  So,
>what happens to image data when it is converted from a proprietary RAW format
>to DNG?  

DNG stores data as compressed or uncompressed 16-bit RAW bitmaps.
Judging by the general philosophy of DNG, I would think that they
decompress the image back to linear before writing the DNG.  Someone who
converts both lossy and non-lossy to DNG from the same camera could
comment on the respective compressed DNG file sizes.
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David Dyer-Bennet - 04 Apr 2006 23:01 GMT
> >> For some cameras, maybe, but some have been shown to use 0 to 215 in
> >> their original linear state, and then the rest of the range is
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> converts both lossy and non-lossy to DNG from the same camera could
> comment on the respective compressed DNG file sizes.

I've been converting D200 NEF (only uncompressed so far) to DNG
because I have no software that will decode NEF (an upgrade to
Photoshop CS2 would fix this, but...).  I guess what's needed is a
test image with important hightlight detail, shot both compressed and
uncompressed from a tripod?  Then various tests could be done from
there to try to satisfy ourselves whether the compression does
nasties.
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Jeremy Nixon - 04 Apr 2006 01:29 GMT
>> Are you using compressed NEF?  I've heard that part of the compression
>> includes more aggressive clipping of highlights.
>
> I think you have heard incorrectly, as the compression is a simple lossless
> forumula.

I think you may have heard incorrectly, as Nikon's compressed raw discards
highlight information, the theory being that in a linear capture, there is
so much highlight information that you'll never be able to see all of it
anyway.  Which is fine, until you start needing it for processing.

Whether it makes much difference is open to question, of course.  I leave
it off on the D2x, because it's pointless to toss out data when there's no
reason to.  And I've noticed I have a *lot* more wiggle room in the
highlights than I ever had with the D70, though I don't know how much of
that can be attributed to the compression (I've never turned it on, but
don't intend to).

Nikon describes compressed NEF as "visually lossless".  It certainly is
not data-lossless.  (Technically, it's a two-step process; first the
allegedly-useless highlight data is discarded, then the result is put
through a compression process.  The compression used in step two is
lossless, which can lead to some confusion.  The process in full is not.)

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Bill - 04 Apr 2006 05:55 GMT
>Nikon describes compressed NEF as "visually lossless".  It certainly is
>not data-lossless.  (Technically, it's a two-step process; first the
>allegedly-useless highlight data is discarded, then the result is put
>through a compression process.  The compression used in step two is
>lossless, which can lead to some confusion.  The process in full is not.)

Whoa...never knew that about Nikon.

Anyone have info on which models are truly lossless and which models are
not?

And while we're on the subject, anyone know if Canon does anything
similar?
w.beckley@gmail.com - 04 Apr 2006 08:25 GMT
I have no idea if Canon does anything similar. But I can add the
following, somewhat-contradictory facts:

1.) My Canon 20D seems to get fewer RAW shots per 1 GB card than my D70
did at a ratio equal to the megapixel difference, suggesting that
difference in file size is the result ONLY of the jump form 6 to 8.2
megapixels, and not any difference in compression. And I know the D70
NEFs were compressed...

2.) My Canon 20D seems to have much more leniency in the highlights
than my D70 did.

Both cannot be true, empirically, but both are. Even now, with much
more RAW processing experience, my RAW files from my D70 don't get the
mileage that my 20D shots get. I've also learned a great deal more
about effectve RAW capture (expose "right") since then, so that could
account for all of the difference right there.

Anyone know for sure what the true difference is?

Will
Bill - 04 Apr 2006 08:36 GMT
>I have no idea if Canon does anything similar. But I can add the
>following, somewhat-contradictory facts:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Anyone know for sure what the true difference is?

Geezes...this is so obvious.

The difference is temporal distortions in the fabric of the time-space
continuum relative to the mass of the subject in proportion to the
quantum deviation of the subjects leptons due to muon degradation from
neutrino penetration which causes decay to positrons.

What are you...new to all this???

:-)
JPS@no.komm - 04 Apr 2006 08:39 GMT
>And while we're on the subject, anyone know if Canon does anything
>similar?

Canons, in general, have very honest RAW data.  The blackpoint bias is
still in the data, there is no WB applied, full histograms, etc.  The
only exceptions tend to be at the highest ISO or ISOs, where the numbers
are doubled instead of amplified, and not all models have RAW data that
go all the way to 4095; the 10D clips the data at about 3997-4005 at ISO
100 (depending on the vertical line), and progressively higher with
higher ISOs (not reaching 4095 until 800 or 1600).  The 1DmkII clips RAW
data in the low 3700s, at least for some ISOs.  I've never heard of
anything like what Nikon is doing, though, with their compression, and
the RAW files sizes suggest that the Canons are only losslessly
compressed.
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JPS@no.komm - 04 Apr 2006 08:28 GMT
>Whether it makes much difference is open to question, of course.

If you do anything to increase the contrast of the highlights (like
exposing a very low contrast scene all the way "to the right"), then it
should make a difference in terms of posterization. Of course, S/N
(other than the posterization effects) should not be affected.
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Jeremy Nixon - 05 Apr 2006 01:30 GMT
>> Whether it makes much difference is open to question, of course.
>
> If you do anything to increase the contrast of the highlights (like
> exposing a very low contrast scene all the way "to the right"), then it
> should make a difference in terms of posterization.

It should, yes.  But since half of the data is devoted to the top stop
of highlights -- as much as is devoted to the entire rest of the range --
Nikon's theory is that there's so much data that it won't matter.

I haven't done any testing.  In practice, I'm much more often shooting
in extremely high-contrast situations, and I've found that the D2x gives
me a *lot* more wiggle room in the highlights during processing; it's like
a whole different world of headroom.  But I haven't tried compressed raw
on the D2x for comparison.

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Roger - 03 Apr 2006 21:35 GMT
>> My friend just upgraded from his D70 to a D200... he encouraged me to do the
>> same...
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I've begun printing at 13"x19" and could definitely use more pixels.
>OTOH the file sizes will be a bear.

Those are still *small* files.  Start scanning 35mm at 4000 dpi and 16
bit color depth. <:-))

>There are a few situations where mirror lockup would be nice.

For my shooting I find it essential and would be the final reason to
be able to get rid of my 35s.

>The viewfinder is supposed to be bigger, that's actually quite important
>though I don't know how much better it is without a side by side
>comparison & there aren't any demo models in stores.

The local camera store called me in to look at one two or three weeks
ago.

>As I understand the noise is not much better but it handles blown
>highlights more smoothly. The added pixels should be a real improvement
>in image quality though.

Only if you are doing large prints.  I doubt they'd make much
difference on an 8 X 10. OTOH I'd certainly think they would make a
big difference when it comes to very large prints or extreme cropping.

The one added advantage is the "hard wired" remote instead of that
darn IR remote on the D70.  Some bemoan the loss of the IR remote and
I celebrate going to the cable.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Paul Furman - 03 Apr 2006 23:32 GMT
> The one added advantage is the "hard wired" remote instead of that
> darn IR remote on the D70.  Some bemoan the loss of the IR remote and
> I celebrate going to the cable.

Egads I hate the IR remote! A real cable would be nice.
Roger - 04 Apr 2006 09:31 GMT
>> The one added advantage is the "hard wired" remote instead of that
>> darn IR remote on the D70.  Some bemoan the loss of the IR remote and
>> I celebrate going to the cable.
>
>Egads I hate the IR remote! A real cable would be nice.
Yah, the IR doesn't perform very well from the back <:-)) Apparently
they figured all remote work would be for group or self portrait.  Me,
with the telescope and nature I much prefer the hard wired or
mechanical cable.  Of course my preference for short to intermediate
distances is the mechanical cable, but that gets impractical when you
are 10 to 15 feet away from the camera.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
tomm42 - 01 Apr 2006 19:00 GMT
Maybe, the viewfinder is much better(my sister in law has the D70 feels
like you are looking in a cave), not a big difference in mp but you can
get 8x12 at 300ppi from the 10mp. What lenses you have will make the
difference, the 18-70 kit lens from Nikon has the reputation of being
much better than the Canon kit lens. If you have more than one lens,
why switch, stay with the Nikon. D20 is a minor step up from the D70,
again it has a better viewfinder.

Tom
Jeroen Wenting - 03 Apr 2006 14:16 GMT
> Maybe, the viewfinder is much better(my sister in law has the D70 feels
> like you are looking in a cave), not a big difference in mp but you can

That's the main reason I opted for a D200 to complement my F100 instead of a
D70s.
I found the viewfinder to be (and that's putting it mildly) claustrophobic
after being used to the very large bright one in the F100.

I've now shot 400 shots (exactly) with it in a week and am only scratching
the surface of what it can do, am still tweaking it to work like I want it
to (which is pretty much to be as close to the F100 as possible in many
ways).

It's a fine piece of kit.
Large, solid as a rock, and stable.
John A. Stovall - 01 Apr 2006 23:00 GMT
>My friend just upgraded from his D70 to a D200... he encouraged me to do the
>same...
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>PS    Is the Canon 20D better then the Nikon D70?

The Canon 5D is better than both....
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Jeroen Wenting - 03 Apr 2006 14:13 GMT
>>My friend just upgraded from his D70 to a D200... he encouraged me to do
>>the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> The Canon 5D is better than both....
troll...

Without giving reasons why that's a pretty useless answer.
And I can see at least one reason why it would be a much worse option than
either (or rather several thousand rea$on$).
David Dyer-Bennet - 02 Apr 2006 06:46 GMT
> My friend just upgraded from his D70 to a D200... he encouraged me to do the
> same...
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Bottom line - will I get better pics?

Probably not, though you'll get somewhat better enlargeability of
course.  But maybe -- depending on what items are holding you back.
If you can't *tell* what's holding you back, it's not that likely that
a hardware change will fix it.

I just traded up a Fuji S2 (a D100-general 6MP DSLR) to a D200.
Here's why *I* did it:

o  iTTL flash (since the D70 has iTTL, this will not be *your* reason)
o  Faster auto-focus
o  Metering with pre-AF lenses (I was using them without metering and
  that's okay, but sometimes slows me down at the wrong moment)
o  Maybe better low-light (the S2 was already pretty darned good there)

Some other reasons that aren't big deals to me, but could be to
someone:

o  Faster frame-rate (5FPS)
o  Longer burst (19 vs. 7)
o  Allegedly tougher and better sealed body
o  Better continuous auto-focus
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BobF@nospam.com - 03 Apr 2006 02:47 GMT
>> My friend just upgraded from his D70 to a D200... he encouraged me to do the
>> same...
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>o  Allegedly tougher and better sealed body
>o  Better continuous auto-focus

I'd say focusing is my biggest problem, so maybe it could be worth it...

Of all my cameras, the easiest to focus was the Minolta X-9 film 35, I wish they
still had split screens!
 
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