Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / April 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Old fogey needs some advice

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
JamesStep@gmail.com - 28 Mar 2006 19:18 GMT
I used to be a pretty good amateur photographer (used a 35 mm film
SLR), but for a variety of reasons I haven't done much photography in
the past 15 years or so. I'm getting back into it now, but I need some
advice.

I've just started looking at digital SLRs, and my first impression is
that there's a big emphasis on automation these days, with
auto-everything, a gazillion modes, fancy features, etc.  That's fine,
but I'm old school and I prefer to use manual control in most
situations (I'll be shooting mostly landscapes, still lifes, etc).

Can anyone recommend any low-priced or moderately-priced digital SLRs
that might be suitable for someone who prefers simplicity and manual
control?

(To be clear, I'm NOT opposed to automatic focus, exposure, etc. I'm
sure I'd find them handy sometimes. But mainly I want a camera that is
easy to use in manual mode.)

Thanks,

James
L.C. - 28 Mar 2006 20:09 GMT
> I used to be a pretty good amateur photographer (used a 35 mm film
> SLR), but for a variety of reasons I haven't done much photography in
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> James

Unfortunately, easy to use in manual mode and cheap don't go together.  You
will find that the cheapest DSLRs are built on the assumption that you will
want the camera to make choices for you.  When you get to the "mid range"
cameras you get controls that allow manual operation with ease.

To make manual work, you must have controls that will work the aperture and
shutter speeds with separate controls rather than through menu choices.  The
major brands all make cameras that will work.  For a start, the Canon 20D or
30D.  Nikon's D70.  Pentax *istD.

L.C.
tomm42 - 28 Mar 2006 20:47 GMT
> I used to be a pretty good amateur photographer (used a 35 mm film
> SLR), but for a variety of reasons I haven't done much photography in
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> James

Having just bit the bullet I got a Nikon D200, expensive but it will
take old nonAF lenses. The Nikon D70 and D50 will accept AIS lenses but
won't meter. Good News in camera meters have gotten way better. So I
have a 24 f2 as my primary lens on my D200, matches the 35 f2 I have on
my old Canon the bad news is to keep the viewfinder bright they have a
fine matte screen, hard to focus a WA lens on it. This camera (D200) is
built like a tank.
Canon makes fine cameras, but they don't accept the old FD lenses, so
all of their lenses are auto focus (EOS mount). Canons will meter with
almost any lens so to get MF lenses folks are adapting Contax lenses to
the Canon cameras. I'd look at the D20 or D30 first, if you find them
to much $, look at the Rebel 350D.
Konica-Minolta have been bought out by Sony, but their 7D is a nice
camera. Has an anti-shake sensor can save a stop or two in hand
holding. I wouldn't consider the cheaper 5D.
Pentax also makes Dslrs, the main claim to fame here is they are fully
backwards compatible lens wise (screw mounts need a cheap adapter).
Again I'd go for the top of the line here.
Olympus has an interesting line of slightly smaller sensor cameras.
Right now the top of the line camera they sent out 2 years ago for $2K
is going for $600 or so. Accessories are expensive, but even their kit
lenses are fairly good.
Sort of it in a nutshell, I went out on a limb pricewise, but I have a
camera whose specs will probably hold up for 5 years, hopefully longer.
Unfortunately to get durability and viable manual controls you have to
buy up in the price range. Itstead of being more manual, cheaper models
give you preprogramed data for selected scenes and more difficult
manual controls.
Good luck,

Tom
David Dyer-Bennet - 28 Mar 2006 20:59 GMT
> I used to be a pretty good amateur photographer (used a 35 mm film
> SLR), but for a variety of reasons I haven't done much photography in
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> sure I'd find them handy sometimes. But mainly I want a camera that is
> easy to use in manual mode.)

Any of them.  At least, any of them I've looked at closely enough to
know.  While they *have* P&S modes, if you put them in "M" mode they
work just like a manual exposure SLR from history -- you set the
shutter speed, you set the aperture, there's a meter reading visible
in the viewfinder giving the camera's opinion of what you've set.  I
suppose it's possible that some of them actually have bad interfaces
for their manual exposure, there are a lot of DSLRs I haven't
handled.  The Nikon D1, D100, D200, and the Fuji S2, and the Canon 1D
mkII and 10D all have good manual interfaces based on personal
experience.
Signature

David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

Charles Schuler - 28 Mar 2006 23:18 GMT
>I used to be a pretty good amateur photographer (used a 35 mm film
> SLR), but for a variety of reasons I haven't done much photography in
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> sure I'd find them handy sometimes. But mainly I want a camera that is
> easy to use in manual mode.)

Canon 350D might be a good choice.  It is affordable and flexible in the
manual mode.  You can simply ignore its auto modes.
C J Southern - 28 Mar 2006 23:23 GMT
They say you're only as old as you feel - so from one "old fogey" to another
...

The camera is one issue - but appropriate lenses are another. From the
"Canon camp" the best lenses are "L" (luxury) series - but each one could
easily cost you twice what you'd pay for an entry level camera like the
350D/Rebel XT - but having made the investment then you've got an investment
for many many years to come - not to mention better images right from the
start.

Entry level in the Canon camp is the 350D - but I'd urge anyone who's
serious to invest in a minimum of a 30D (the successor to the venerable 20D)
(or even a 2nd hand 20D). A full frame camera like the 5D will give you
wider-angle - but in my experiance it's just as easy (and a lot cheaper) to
simply stitch several shots into a panorama (I routinely stictch 8 or more
shots into 1 big one - the process is quick and seamless once you understand
a few simple rules).

Unfortunately it's still a case of "you get what you pay for"

Hope this helps.
D-Mac - 29 Mar 2006 01:32 GMT
> They say you're only as old as you feel - so from one "old fogey" to another
> ...
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Hope this helps.

With regard to your stated use and needs, Every DSLR can be used in
manual mode. Olympus DSLRs ...because they use 4/3 proportions more
suited to portraits may not be ideal for you but their normal quality
lenses are extremely good and cameras are first rate.

Sadly you have to spend more than the camera costs to buy a decent Canon
lens so if price is a consideration, you could do better than fall for
the "cheap" DSLR (350D) "kits" from Canon because the first thing you
will need is a decent lens and that will double the cost.

Right now, Nikon D50s are the bargain buy in DSLRs. I don't know about
the 'kit' lens on the discounted camera but no one here seems to
complain like they do about the Canon ones.

If I was buying a DSLR today for the use you state and I was retired or
nearly, I'd seriously consider one of the Pentax offerings because they
have the greatest compatibility with previous model lenses which need to
be used in manual mode but have incredible optical features... And there
in lies your answer to using manual features with a Digital SLR. Pentax!
l e o - 29 Mar 2006 02:23 GMT
>> They say you're only as old as you feel - so from one "old fogey" to
>> another
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> be used in manual mode but have incredible optical features... And there
> in lies your answer to using manual features with a Digital SLR. Pentax!

Your reply is laudable, from someone who apparently doesn't won the
Rebel XT. I have used the kit lens with the original Rebel, it delivers
very good result. It falls short only if you compare it to the "L" class
lens. My friend has the Pentax *ist Ds, the kit lens is well built,
comparing to Canon's, but the picture quality isn't any better. In fact,
there are many sharp prime lenses that are cheap as well. If one get the
Rebel XT, simply grab the kit lens, for $50 more than just the body and
get one of those cheap primes.
C J Southern - 29 Mar 2006 03:13 GMT
> Your reply is laudable, from someone who apparently doesn't won the
> Rebel XT. I have used the kit lens with the original Rebel, it delivers
> very good result. It falls short only if you compare it to the "L" class
> lens.

Well, I HAVE owned a Rebel XT with a kit lens (and a 20D with a kit lens) -
and as I've said before ...

"The only thing that stopped me kicking the useless hunk-of-junk into orbit
was the fact that some sucker gave me $50.00 for it". I went the "L" way,
and have never regretted it or looked back for a moment. In my opinion
saying that the kit lens "falls short" compared to "L" series is a gross
understatement.

You get what you pay for.
l e o - 29 Mar 2006 03:17 GMT
>> Your reply is laudable, from someone who apparently doesn't won the
>> Rebel XT. I have used the kit lens with the original Rebel, it delivers
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> You get what you pay for.

I disagree totally. you're right about "you get what you pay for." for
$50 or less, unless one gets the 17-40L for $800, it's a must buy, just
to get back the wide angle focal length. In fact, I think it is more
than satisfactory for "normal" users, obviously that's majority of the
Rebel XT buyers. I compare this Canon kit lens to Pentax, I don't see
any dramatic difference in terms of picture quality.
C J Southern - 29 Mar 2006 06:00 GMT
> I disagree totally. you're right about "you get what you pay for." for
> $50 or less, unless one gets the 17-40L for $800, it's a must buy, just
> to get back the wide angle focal length. In fact, I think it is more
> than satisfactory for "normal" users, obviously that's majority of the
> Rebel XT buyers. I compare this Canon kit lens to Pentax, I don't see
> any dramatic difference in terms of picture quality.

I think that's one of the joys of interchangeability - you can choose a
cheap lens to keep your costs down, or an expensive one to get far better
results. I'm not made of money, but when I saw the results I was getting
from the kit lens I was very disappointed. I was looking for something I
could have printed and framed on the wall, but wasn't ever able to get
anything that I was happy with - sharpness just wasn't there - contrast just
wasn't there - I talked to friends - I asked questions here, but nothing
made enough difference. Then I bought my first L series lens (a 24-70 F2.8L
USM) and my whole world changed. For me the difference was night and day.
When I got a 20D it too came with a kit lens - and I got the same poor
results. So right or wrong, there is my experience with kit lenses - and if
I ever see another one during my lifetime it'll be too soon.

I think that people need to remember that the camera body is just a box that
lets in the light - you get a far far far better result using a quality lens
(like the 24-70L) on a cheap camera (like the Rebel XT) than you'll get with
a "kit" lens on the finest camera that money can buy. And yet I constantly
see people trying to do it the other way around, and wondering why it
doesn't work.

That's my take on it anyway,

YMMV
Pete D - 29 Mar 2006 08:43 GMT
>> I disagree totally. you're right about "you get what you pay for." for
>> $50 or less, unless one gets the 17-40L for $800, it's a must buy, just
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> YMMV

I added a Pentax 16-45mm ED lens to my Pentax DS and the results are well
worth it.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 29 Mar 2006 15:12 GMT
> I think that people need to remember that the camera body is just a box that
> lets in the light - you get a far far far better result using a quality lens
> (like the 24-70L)

You get even better with fixed focus lenses, especially
at the extremes: wide angle and telephoto.  A good fixed focal
length lens, like 24 mm f/2.8 is not expensive.

Roger
JamesStep@gmail.com - 29 Mar 2006 18:21 GMT
I'm the original poster, and I want to thank everyone for the
*extremely* helpful advice that's being posted. I really appreciate it!

I have more to say, but I'm at the office and can't talk right now, but
I want to clarify one thing...

> The new metering systems mean you do not
> necessarily have to work in manual mode.
> For example, most of my imaging is in Av
> (aperture priority mode)

Good point. Although I was originally thinking of totally manual
operation, I guess that aperture-priority mode could actually work
pretty well for me in most situations. I'm just trying to avoid
situations like this...

> to set  exposure, I have to hold down the shutter halfway;
> then twirl the dial to set the shutter speed; then, still holding
> down the shutter halfway,  I have to take my eye away from
> the viewfinder, press the Av button and then twirl the dial to
> set the aperture.

Yeah, that's the kind of convoluted procedure I was hoping to avoid, if
possible.

James
Paul Arthur - 31 Mar 2006 04:47 GMT
> I'm the original poster, and I want to thank everyone for the
> *extremely* helpful advice that's being posted. I really appreciate it!
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Yeah, that's the kind of convoluted procedure I was hoping to avoid, if
> possible.

On the Canon EOS 350D (which I assume the poster was referring to, since
I've never heard of a Digital Rebel 250 XT) adjusting the shutter speed
or aperture can be done without holding the shutter release halfway down
the entire time.

If you want to adjust it while looking through the viewfinder, you do
need to press it down halfway initially to make the exposure information
show up, but then it stays displayed as long as you're adjusting it.

Personally, I find it fairly easy to adjust the aperture without moving
the camera away from my eye; the button that needs to be held down is
fairly conveniently located to be depressed by your right thumb while
twirling the dial with your index finger.

If you just want to set the exposure settings and don't need to be
looking through the viewfinder to do so, both the aperture and the
shutter speed are displayed on the rear LCD panel.

The one thing I do find fairly difficult to do manually is focus, as
the 350D lacks the traditional aids found on film cameras.

Paul Arthur MacIain
Signature


           It is easier to fix Unix than to live with NT.

C J Southern - 29 Mar 2006 23:11 GMT
> > I think that people need to remember that the camera body is just a box that
> > lets in the light - you get a far far far better result using a quality lens
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> at the extremes: wide angle and telephoto.  A good fixed focal
> length lens, like 24 mm f/2.8 is not expensive.

I agree. Having said that - and not having an unlimited budget - I made the
choice to start with the "best bang for my bucks", so I got the 24-70 F2.8L
and the 70-200 F2.8L IS - if I had to pick 2 Canon lenses with the
description of "venerable" attached to them, these would be the two. I will
get some primes at some point, but after my previous experiences I've drawn
a line in the sand and made the decision that I won't be using anything
other than "L" series - if I have to wait for it while I save up then so be
it.

The 85mm F1.2L has my attention at the moment - but I'd also like a 600mm
baby - and something in wide angle - the list goes on :(
AaronW - 31 Mar 2006 02:09 GMT
> > > I think that people need to remember that the camera body is just a box
> that
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> other than "L" series - if I have to wait for it while I save up then so be
> it.

Even the cheapest primes are better than L zooms, 50/1.8, 28/2.8, ...
So the difference between L prime and cheap prime is far smaller than
between L zoom and $100 kit zoom.

> The 85mm F1.2L has my attention at the moment

Unless you need f/1.2, 85/1.8 would work very well, much better than
f/2.8 or f/4 zooms.

> - but I'd also like a 600mm baby

300/2.8 or 400/2.8 + 1.4x or 2x.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
cjcampbell - 31 Mar 2006 03:53 GMT
> Even the cheapest primes are better than L zooms

Um, no. That might have been true thirty years ago.

And let us be frank here: the OP is not a newbie. He has used SLRs
before and is experienced in film photography. So what is the point of
trying to talk down to him about lenses.

My bet is he knows what a prime lens really is, which is something you
do not.
AaronW - 31 Mar 2006 05:14 GMT
> > Even the cheapest primes are better than L zooms
>
> Um, no. That might have been true thirty years ago.

In the PhotoZone tests, at f/2.8, 50/1.8 has a resolution of 1869/1805
lines (center/border), better than 1744/1540 of 24-70/2.8.

http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/canon_50_18/index.htm
http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/canon_2470_28/index.htm

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 31 Mar 2006 14:53 GMT
> My bet is he knows what a prime lens really is, which is something you
> do not.

CJ,
Be careful.  If the net cops see this, they'll jump all over you.
Prime lens does not mean fixed focus.  Prime lens means one used
primarily for a task, so can include zooms.
You mean fixed focus.

In general, zooms that equal the image quality of a fixed focus
lenses usually cost many times than that of a fixed focus lens.
These days, there are many excellent zooms, but low cost
fixed lenses save a lot of money without sacrificing
image quality (including sharpness, distortion, contrast,
and flare).

Roger
cjcampbell - 01 Apr 2006 01:22 GMT
> > My bet is he knows what a prime lens really is, which is something you
> > do not.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> image quality (including sharpness, distortion, contrast,
> and flare).

Just don't tell AaronW.
Frank ess - 01 Apr 2006 02:16 GMT
>> My bet is he knows what a prime lens really is, which is something
>> you do not.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> image quality (including sharpness, distortion, contrast,
> and flare).

A typical single-use (throw-away) camera has both fixed focus and
fixed focal length.

Signature

Frank ess

ian lincoln - 01 Apr 2006 13:09 GMT
>> My bet is he knows what a prime lens really is, which is something you
>> do not.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> primarily for a task, so can include zooms.
> You mean fixed focus.

fixed focal length you mean.  fixed focus lenses are what you find on cheap
plastic compacts
C J Southern - 31 Mar 2006 05:43 GMT
> Even the cheapest primes are better than L zooms, 50/1.8, 28/2.8, ...
> So the difference between L prime and cheap prime is far smaller than
> between L zoom and $100 kit zoom.

It depends on the zoom. The 24-70 F2.8L and 70-200 F2.8L zooms are renowned
for being equal to many primes in image quality.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=12&sort=7&thecat=27

http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=5&sort=7&cat=27&page=1
Charles Gillen - 30 Mar 2006 06:42 GMT
"Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <username@qwest.net>
wrote:

> You get even better with fixed focus lenses, especially
> at the extremes: wide angle and telephoto.  A good fixed focal
> length lens, like 24 mm f/2.8 is not expensive.

One of my pride-and-joy lenses is a Zenitar 16mm f.2.8 airmailed from
Moscow for about $115.  Pentax DSLR owners rave about this lens.  Despite
the 1.5 FOV crop factor, most users feel it seems wider than the calculated
24mm.
AaronW - 31 Mar 2006 01:55 GMT
> I disagree totally. you're right about "you get what you pay for." for
> $50 or less, unless one gets the 17-40L for $800, it's a must buy, just
> to get back the wide angle focal length.

Wide angle alternatives:
Canon 28/2.8 + Olympus 0.7x
Canon 20-35/3.5-4.5
Canon 20/2.8

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
Charles Gillen - 29 Mar 2006 07:06 GMT
> Can anyone recommend any low-priced or moderately-priced digital SLRs
> that might be suitable for someone who prefers simplicity and manual
> control?

I've been in that same boat, and am very glad I switched to Pentax after a
Canon Rebel XT died the first day I had it.  Pentax is very friendly to us
senior citizens who began shooting with fully manual cameras before Tri-X
appeared  :^)

Signature

Anti-Spam address: my last name at his dot com
Charles Gillen -- Reston, Virginia, USA

fishfry - 29 Mar 2006 07:32 GMT
> I used to be a pretty good amateur photographer (used a 35 mm film
> SLR), but for a variety of reasons I haven't done much photography in
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> sure I'd find them handy sometimes. But mainly I want a camera that is
> easy to use in manual mode.)

I have a Digital Rebel 250XT and one of the comments I would make is
that it is not very convenient in fully manual mode. For example to set
exposure, I have to hold down the shutter halfway; then twirl the dial
to set the shutter speed; then, still holding down the shutter halfway,
I have to take my eye away from the viewfinder, press the Av button, and
then twirl the dial to set the aperture.

It's really inconvenient, and clearly designed by someone who has never
used the manual exposure mode on this camera.

In addition, consumer-grade DSLRS are difficult to manually focus since
they lack cross-hatches, split-screen, and other manual focussing aids.

I think the original poster might consider dusting off the old film
cameras, and buying a good film scanner. That's a way to get into
Photoshop and the digital world, but still have the best quality manual
control over the shot.

Even though DSLRs have manual mode, they are really not designed to be
used that way. Don't know enough about the high end DSLRs to know if
they do a better job in manual mode.

I would also mention that autofocus isn't so bad ... in fact it's pretty
good, and much faster that manual focussing. You start out a purist, but
you get seduced by the gizmos pretty quickly.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 29 Mar 2006 14:53 GMT
> I have a Digital Rebel 250XT and one of the comments I would make is
> that it is not very convenient in fully manual mode. For example to set
> exposure, I have to hold down the shutter halfway; then twirl the dial
> to set the shutter speed; then, still holding down the shutter halfway,
> I have to take my eye away from the viewfinder, press the Av button, and
> then twirl the dial to set the aperture.

You you sure there is not another way?  On my Canon DSLRs
there are two dials.  The small one on top, and the big
one on the back.  In manual mode, one dial moves aperture,
one moves shutter speed.  So it is easy to work manual mode
looking through the viewfinder and doing both
aperture and shutter with one hand.  I'm not familiar with
a 250XT.

But for the OP, The new metering systems mean you do not
necessarily have to work in manual mode.  For example, most of
my imaging is in Av (aperture priority mode).  I select
aperture so I control depth of field.  The camera selects
shutter speed, which I modify as I want with exposure
compensation.  Only when I want the exposure and aperture
fixed for a long time do I go to manual (e.g. night
photography).  (These camera abilities date from
film cameras in the late 1980s).  In Av mode, the top
dial changes aperture, and the dial on the back changes exposure
compensation, and is very simple to operate, even with gloves on
in cold conditions.

I switched from
an Exakta all manual system to Canon EOS around 1990,
and still do all manual with large format cameras.

Roger
Photos at: http://www.clarkvision.com
w.beckley@gmail.com - 29 Mar 2006 09:27 GMT
A good question, and one whose answer depends on just how selective you
are. Just what do you need to be manual?

If the answer is everything, meaning *everything* that was manual on
your old cameras, then there seems to be only a pair of options: the
new Panasonic DMC-L1 with the Leica kit lens or Leica's R system with
the "digital-module." The second option is prohibitively expensive (and
has it come to market yet?). The first is one that I'd exclude because
I think the Four-Thirds system chip size is too small (but I also think
that the "APS-C" size chips in most DSLRs are also too small, so I'm
picky that way). In any case, these are the only options you have if
you want a physical aperture ring and a physical shutter speed dial,
and the aperture ring applies on the Panasonic only on that one Leica
kit lens, at least for now.

If you think you can sacrifice that shutter speed dial, your options
open up considerably. You can choose from all of the Pentax DSLRs and
the Nikon D200. The Nikon is nearly $1800, so it doesn't come cheap.
These two options allow you to use older lenses without autofocus and
with physical aperture rings. Shutter speed would be controlled via a
dial on the camera, but the control is electronic and you can't
actually see a physical setting like on old SLRs. It isn't much of a
sacrifice, since there is in both cases an LCD on the camera that tells
you your shutter speed, and you can also verify the shutter speed in
the viewfinder. That it isn't a physical dial with absolute settings
also means that you tend to get more settings since there's no limit
like there is with the number of settings that could fit on an actual
dial. This is probably the option you'd be most comfortable with, and
I'd urge you to look into the Pentax offerings, as they are much less
expensive and have a brighter viewfinder.

If even that is more than you actually meant, then you're really open
to most everything out there. Canon's offerings, *above the Digital
Rebels* (basically starting at the 20d, which is as far as you'd need
to go up the chain), all work terrifically in full manual mode. That's
how I shoot with my 20d all the time. The Nikon cameras (the D50, D70,
and D70s) offer the same functionality. Basically, in these cases, you
get full manual operation simply by turning off autofocus. Shutter
speed is controlled via a dial just like on the cameras mentioned
above, and aperture is controlled via a second dial in very much the
same way. It takes some getting used to the fact that there isn't a
physical aperture ring on the lens (the second dial is on the camera
body), but it is an easy workflow to adjust to and I never feel as if
I'm not using a manual camera, because I am... the interface is just
different. It should be noted that at this point I could only highly
reccommend going to a camera shop and comparing, say, the Nikon D70S
and the Canon 20D. Both offer the same degree of manual control, but
they put the dials in different places. I owned a Nikon D70 for a year
before I sold my Nikon gear for Canon, and in switching I discovered
that I liked the larger dial on the back of the 20D a great deal more
for controlling aperture. Something about it made alot more sense to my
mind. I'm sure that an equal number of people are more comfortable with
Nikon's system, though, which is why I say you should go see for
yourself.

Canon's Rebel and Rebel XT are to be avoided for this kind of use,
however. They only have one such dial, so you control shutter speed and
aperture on the same dial, switching with the press of another button.
It is a system you wouldn't be happy with.

So a bit of a recap:

1. Physical Aperture and Shutter: Leica R or Panasonic L1 with Leica
lens (coming soon)
2. Physical Aperture, Electronically Manual Shutter: Nikon D200 or
Pentax
3. Electronically Manual Aperture, Electronically Manual Shutter: Canon
20D and 30D, Nikon D50, D70, and D70S
4. Not easy enough to work with manually to be worthwhile: Canon Rebel
and Rebel XT

Yes, I'm leaving out Konica Minolta's discontinued line and Olympus'
FourThirds cameras, as well as Fuji's Nikon-mount DSLRs. Call it bias,
but I don't think any of these systems offer anything great for your
uses.

Now lenses are another story. To work manually, you need a certain kind
of glass. Obviously, everything in option 1 is pretty clear (all Leica
lenses have aperture rings for the R system, and  the one lens for the
Panasonic does as well). Likewise, the manual lenses you'd want to get
for the D200 or Pentax cameras are fine. But both of these cameras also
will work with newer lenses, in some cases "digital-only" lenses, and
these lenses will not have aperture rings and will be essentially like
the options from option 3. Even then, Canon, Nikon, and Pentax make
some lenses that work beautifully for manual focus, and some that
don't. All of my Canon lenses have the designation of "USM" which
refers to the autofocus motor, but also seems to suggest nice build and
a nice, dedicated focus ring for manual focusing. The Canon kit lenses
that I've seen, however, would annoy the crap out of me for manual
focusing. The kit lens that came with my Nikon D70 when I had it was
great, just like my current Canon lenses. The kit lens with my friend's
Nikon D50, however, is just as bad for manual focus as the Canon kit
lens I've seen. I haven't seen Pentax's kit lens, but I imagine it
could be the same. For this reason, I'd recommend looking at your
lenses before buying, to make sure you would be comfortable manually
focusing with them.

The last issue at hand here is that of your focusing screen. The new
standard for all digital SLRs seems to be a matte screen that doesn't
offer any kind of prismatic focusing aid like you might be used to. I
don't know about Nikon (sorry, I just don't know!), but I think Pentax
cameras offer interhangable screens so you can get a split-image prism
if you want it. Canon's 5D and pro cameras offer them, but the 20D and
30D do not.

Finally, unless you can shell out 3 grand for a Canon 5D, which has a
chip the size of a frame of 35mm film, your focal lengths will be
different than you're used to. Nikon and Pentax cameras have a focal
length multiplier of 1.5, and Canon cameras have a multiplier of 1.6.
The Panasonic camera has a very small chip and a multiplier of 2, and
the Leica R system has a multiplier of 1.3. This is due to the fact
that the chips are smaller than a frame of film, so essentially you
only get the field of view that would have been at the center of the
film frame. On a Nikon or Pentax body, a 28mm wide angle lens becomes
like a 42mm short normal lens. On a Canon body, it becomes like a 45mm
normal. This limits what you can do at the wide end, especially with
older manual focus lenses. All of the manufacterers have made "digital
only" lenses that won't work on film cameras because they only cover
the smaller chip size. These lenses, by and large, exist to give you
back those wide angle focal lengths, so they frequently have wide ends
around 17 or 18mm. They also, however, never have physical aperture
rings and sometimes are of the design that prohibits comfortable manual
focusing. Not all of them, however, so again, look at them and see if
you'd be able to manual focus with it.

Lastly, autofocus ain't the end of the world. I finally came around,
and I use it a little more than half of the time. It's worth giving it
a shot. Which I say only because if you limit your options in that
regard, you might not have any wide angle lenses. Or you'll pay alot
for them, like I did for my Wide angle zoom.

My kit, in case you're curious, is as follows:
Canon Elan 7 film body
Canon 20D digital body
Canon 16-35mm 2.8L USM Superwide-Wide for film, Wide-normal for digital
Canon 28mm 1.8 USM Wide for film, Normal for digital
Canon 50mm 1.4 USM Normal for film, Short Tele for Digital
Canon 100mm 2.0 USM Short Tele for Film, Long Tele for Digital

I couldn't be happier (well, a 5D so that all of my lenses behaved as
they do on the film body... that's my long term goal). That said, I
think you've got a Pentax kit, and plenty of happiness with it, in your
future. Just a prediction.

Hope that helps,

Will
bmoag - 29 Mar 2006 19:53 GMT
They all have manual control but it does not work mechanically. For example
lens diaphragms are set on the camera, not the lens.

The biggest drawback of moderately, and many more expensive, dSLRs for total
manual control are their utterly abysmal viewing systems. They are dark and
difficult to focus even in normal light because of the type of screen used,
lack of a true pentaprism and the smallish maximum f stop of most zooms. The
classic example of this is the D70, an exemplary, marvelous camera that is
nearly crippled by an absolutely horrible viewing system. I use mine heavily
but it is impossible to visually confirm or adjust focus in most situations.
The LCD panels on all dSLRS are also too small to reliably confirm focus
after the shot is made, even when you magnify a portion of the image.
Charles Gillen - 30 Mar 2006 06:52 GMT
> The biggest drawback of moderately, and many more expensive, dSLRs for
> total manual control are their utterly abysmal viewing systems. They
> are dark and difficult to focus even in normal light because of the
> type of screen used, lack of a true pentaprism

Run, do not walk, to the nearest camera store that stocks the Pentax DS2
DSLR and take a look.  Like my own DS it has a bright, true pentaprism.  
Even the pentamirror used on the low-end DL is rated by Pentax fans as
being almost as good.

Looking thru a Nikon D50 in the same price class, I was dumbfounded why
Nikon would stoop to disgrace it with a dim little peephole.

Yet Pentax continues to "get no respect" in our brand-image-conscious
society.  Sorry to keep blowing the horn for Pentax, but as an ancient
advertising slogan said: "Ask the man who owns one."
C J Southern - 29 Mar 2006 23:18 GMT
> I've just started looking at digital SLRs, and my first impression is
> that there's a big emphasis on automation these days, with
> auto-everything, a gazillion modes, fancy features, etc.  That's fine,
> but I'm old school and I prefer to use manual control in most
> situations (I'll be shooting mostly landscapes, still lifes, etc).

I'm reminded of a pilot friend of mine who used to fly a commuter turbo-prop
in a 2 crew operation that didn't have an autopilot (ie "manual control") -
the aircraft was eventually retired and he was "moved up" to a bigger beast
that not only had an autopilot, but a flight director as well.

He initially thought that he wouldn't like all of this automation - but when
I asked him what he thought of it a few months later he said "actually, it's
quite nice - makes life a lot easier).

I think todays cameras are much the same - I never use my 20D in "point and
shoot mode" but it's pretty rare that I'm not in Av mode - or letting E-TTL
II take care of some of the ground work for me.
zeitgeist - 30 Mar 2006 04:03 GMT
Just look for a camera with an "M" on the mode selector dial.  Which of
course stands for 'master.'

You can also find some advanced point and shoots that will give you all the
various modes like a good 35mm camera.

> I used to be a pretty good amateur photographer (used a 35 mm film
> SLR), but for a variety of reasons I haven't done much photography in
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> James
cjcampbell - 30 Mar 2006 04:41 GMT
> Can anyone recommend any low-priced or moderately-priced digital SLRs
> that might be suitable for someone who prefers simplicity and manual
> control?

I also would recommend the Nikon D70, D70s, or D200 (at the high end),
or the Canon 20D, 30D or 5D (at the very high end).

The Nikon D50 and the Canon Rebel series are really not set up for
manual use, though they are very good automatic cameras.

A lot of the newer lenses have no aperture markings on them because you
now manually set aperture with the camera body. Unfortunately, a lot of
them are also pretty skimpy on the distance markings and most are
missing the IR mark entirely. Not only that, but many DSLR viewfinders
aren't what you were used to, although there are some pretty decent
third party focusing screens available.

It has been 15 years, after all. Automation has greatly improved in the
interim, so don't be too quick to write it off just yet. Image
stabilization (Nikon VR or Canon IS) is another new feature on many
lenses that is just about miraculous. Since digital film doesn't cost
anything, it is actually practical to make six or seven attempts to get
a sharp handheld photo at 1/8 second with a 200mm lens -- and you can
just about guarantee success with that.

Digital cameras are different and you will have 'fun' getting to used
to those differences. Personally, the biggest problem I have with
digital vs. film is that it is a lot easier to blow out highlights with
digital. There is no shoulder in digital as there is with film. But
overall I have come to like digital much better. It is cheaper, allows
me to shoot far more for almost no cost, and my photography has greatly
improved as a result.
Roger - 01 Apr 2006 04:38 GMT
>> Can anyone recommend any low-priced or moderately-priced digital SLRs
>> that might be suitable for someone who prefers simplicity and manual
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>A lot of the newer lenses have no aperture markings on them because you
>now manually set aperture with the camera body. Unfortunately, a lot of

I think you could probably say, most of them are that way, or at lest
most of the new crop of lenses devoted to the smaller digital format
such as the Nikon DX series.

You do see the aperture setting through the viewfinder and it appears
just like the 35 mm cameras, but it's not the same.  What you are
seeing is just a digital display of the f-stop rather than the actual
markings on the lens as was done with the 35s.

>them are also pretty skimpy on the distance markings and most are

The DX series are well marked for distance, with the exception of the
IR mark which they do not have, but in over 50 years of shooting I've
never used one any way.

>missing the IR mark entirely. Not only that, but many DSLR viewfinders
>aren't what you were used to, although there are some pretty decent
>third party focusing screens available.

The D70 has a pretty nice viewfinder, but I much prefer the one on my
old F4S.  OTOH the F4S is just too heavy to haul around for casual
shooting, or even a lot of hand held shooting.

I'm looking at adding the D-200 as it has the two features missing in
the D70.  A useful mirror lockup and a hard wired remote release.

>It has been 15 years, after all. Automation has greatly improved in the
>interim, so don't be too quick to write it off just yet. Image

However if you shoot a lot of aviation *stuff* the ability to quickly
manual focus is almost a must as the paint jobs on a lot of military
aircraft completely confuse the auto focus in many  if not most
cameras.  I like the ability for a "one touch" zoom and focus for
those high speed fly-bys.

>stabilization (Nikon VR or Canon IS) is another new feature on many

One of the greatest features to hit the market.

>lenses that is just about miraculous. Since digital film doesn't cost
>anything, it is actually practical to make six or seven attempts to get
>a sharp handheld photo at 1/8 second with a 200mm lens -- and you can
>just about guarantee success with that.

But on a moving target it's a bit impractical. <:-)) Particularly when
it's moving just below the speed of sound.

>Digital cameras are different and you will have 'fun' getting to used
>to those differences. Personally, the biggest problem I have with
>digital vs. film is that it is a lot easier to blow out highlights with
>digital. There is no shoulder in digital as there is with film. But

I saw color saturation (red) on my E20N, but I've not noticed any real
difference in the dynamic range between the D70 and the ASA 100 film I
was using.  Of course neither had the range of ASA 400.

>overall I have come to like digital much better. It is cheaper, allows

Good equipment is still not cheap, but the new crop of lenses aimed at
the smaller digital format such as the DX series give excellent
quality and are quite a bit less than comparable lenses used for 35mm.

Probably my favorite lens on the D70 is the 28-105 Macro. OTOH it is
expensive compared to the kit lens (almost three times as much), or
even the 12 to 24 zoom.  The kit lens works well and has a much wider
zoom range which makes it good for casual shooting.  I'd like to get
hold of that new, wide range Nikor zoom which is something like 18 to
200mm and see what it's like.  The range is ideal for me, but I
wouldn't expect the quality I'm used to.

>me to shoot far more for almost no cost, and my photography has greatly
>improved as a result.

I figured it cost me about $3.00 for a roll of 36 exposure film.  A
dollar to develop it, and about $1.50 for slide mounts, or $5.50 -
$6.00 per roll.  Yes, making prints on my printer is expensive, but I
make far fewer than I would shooting 35mm and spend a fraction of the
time doing it.  The nice thing is I can't tell the difference between
the prints from the Epson R320 and those I get from the photo
processor at the mall.  OTOH it costs more for me to print an 8 X 10
than I pay for commercially produced ones.  Still, it's a *lot*
cheaper than having to do test prints (and I do have a color
densiometer) until I get the proper results out of the dark room.

Color paper is cheap, the chemicals like the ink are not.
OTOH B & W paper for the dark room is relatively expensive at more
than three times the cost of the resin coated color paper.  I must
have at least 500 sheets of  8 X 10 RC B&W paper, 1000 sheets of RC
color paper, and probably close to 500 sheets of the heavy B & W
archival paper.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
cjcampbell - 03 Apr 2006 01:43 GMT
> I'd like to get
> hold of that new, wide range Nikor zoom which is something like 18 to
> 200mm and see what it's like.  The range is ideal for me, but I
> wouldn't expect the quality I'm used to.

You would probably be shocked. Granted, it is a mid-range zoom with a
very wide zoom ratio; the worst of all possible worlds. And yet, this
lens does amazingly well. It will never compete with the 70-200mm in
quality, of course, but it comes surprisingly close.
Roger - 03 Apr 2006 22:11 GMT
>> I'd like to get
>> hold of that new, wide range Nikor zoom which is something like 18 to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>lens does amazingly well. It will never compete with the 70-200mm in
>quality, of course, but it comes surprisingly close.

I truly love that VR 70-200 f2.8 but by the time I add the 2X
telextender (which costs more than many lenses) I'd have more in the
lens than the rest of my cameras.  OK, that is a *bit* of an
exageration, but the lens and extender is *expensive*.

OTOH the 18 - 200 aint cheap!

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Paul Mitchum - 30 Mar 2006 06:08 GMT
> I used to be a pretty good amateur photographer (used a 35 mm film
> SLR), but for a variety of reasons I haven't done much photography in
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> sure I'd find them handy sometimes. But mainly I want a camera that is
> easy to use in manual mode.)

Most DSLRs have easy to use manual modes. Some easier than others. I
like the Pentax *ist line, for a variety of reasons.

But the real advice is this: Find the lens(es) you want, and then buy
the body that goes with them.
Alan Browne - 01 Apr 2006 18:54 GMT
> I used to be a pretty good amateur photographer (used a 35 mm film
> SLR), but for a variety of reasons I haven't done much photography in
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> that might be suitable for someone who prefers simplicity and manual
> control?

Most SLR's (and many zlr's) can be operated manually.  (focus, exposure).

Signature

-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
--      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.