Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / January 2007
How do DSLR sensors change ISO?
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Steve - 11 Mar 2006 16:22 GMT I'd like to know how the same sensor can be two very different speeds. I know that higher speeds are noisier, but what is the camera doing differently?
Dealing with a very steep learning curve,
Steve
l e o - 11 Mar 2006 16:42 GMT > I'd like to know how the same sensor can be two very different speeds. I > know that higher speeds are noisier, but what is the camera doing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Steve analog amplification
Prometheus - 11 Mar 2006 16:43 GMT > I'd like to know how the same sensor can be two very different speeds. I >know that higher speeds are noisier, but what is the camera doing >differently? Amplification.
>Dealing with a very steep learning curve, Keep climbing.
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Alan Browne - 11 Mar 2006 16:50 GMT > Keep climbing. Nasty.
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Alan Browne - 11 Mar 2006 16:50 GMT > I'd like to know how the same sensor can be two very different speeds. I > know that higher speeds are noisier, but what is the camera doing > differently? At the lower ISO's the analog gain is adjusted.
For cameras using Sony's CMOS 6 Mpix sensors, the unity gain ISO appears to be somewhere between ISO 100 and 200 (judging by the noise curves).
For those cameras with an ISO 100 setting, the gain would less than 1, and for 200, 400, etc. it would be more than 1.
At about 1600 (camera dependant), analog gain is boosted by digital gain as some loss of dyncamic range. (eg, the bits are simply left shifted, so the LSB is no longer meaningful).
Cheers, Alan
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JPS@no.komm - 11 Mar 2006 17:19 GMT >I'd like to know how the same sensor can be two very different >speeds. I know that higher speeds are noisier, but what is the >camera doing differently?
>Dealing with a very steep learning curve, There are basically three ways that it is done.
1) Amplification is varied as the sensor signals are read out, before the signal hits the analog-to-digital converter, which turns the signal into numbers for the RAW file. The same range of numbers in the RAW file is generally used for all ISOs on the same camera, to represent the DR of the scene, but there are exceptions.
2) After the amplification of #1, a camera may simply multiply the RAW numbers by a scaling factor that changes the RAW values. For example, the Canon 20D's "ISO 3200" has even values in the RAW data; The amplification is the same as ISO 1600, but the RAW numbers are doubled so that the image is brighter. The 10D's ISO 1600 works similarly; it is ISO 800 amplification, with the numbers doubled.
3) Sometimes the camera and the RAW file simply brighten the image in their processing, by assuming that a lower level in the RAW data is the whitepoint. That is what the Canon 10D does for ISO 3200. Its RAW data is the same in manual exposure mode whether you have the ISO set to 1600 or 3200; the JPEG maker in the camera, and the RAW converters simply know that they have to render a stop brighter.
Of course, in all cases, the camera's metering generally works as if all ISOs were based purely on amplification.
The details are actually much more complicated than what I wrote here, but this is the general idea:
1) Amplification 2) Math done before writing the RAW data. 3) Math done to the RAW data in the RAW converter or in-camera JPEG.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< george - 12 Mar 2006 15:18 GMT > I'd like to know how the same sensor can be two very different speeds. > I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Steve You've gotten a partial answer to your question...the different sensitivities is due to the camera applying a different amount of gain (amplification). Consider when there is very little light, then the legitimate signal is very small compared to the noise (random signal unrelated to the image). In that situation, amplification keeps both the noise and the signal very close in amplitude and it is very difficult for hardware or software to figure out which is which. (The usual strength of digitization is in making the signal large compared to the noise so that the small signals (usually noise) can just be thrown away.)
JPS@no.komm - 12 Mar 2006 17:12 GMT >You've gotten a partial answer to your question...the different >sensitivities is due to the camera applying a different amount of gain >(amplification). That would be a partial answer, too, as many camera use math in addition to amplification to increase virtual sensitivity.
>Consider when there is very little light, then the >legitimate signal is very small compared to the noise (random signal [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >digitization is in making the signal large compared to the noise so that the >small signals (usually noise) can just be thrown away.) A RAW converter (or the in-camera JPEG engine) can hide shadow noise a bit by darkening the shadows, but noise exists at all levels. Most of the random noise is blackframe noise, which would be there even if the lenscap were on. The signal simply adds to it in the sensor.
High ISO is usually associated with noisey images, but it is important to understand why. If you leave a camera on a tripod, point it at the same scene, in an auto-exposure mode, and change the ISO to take pictures, the reason that the high-ISO images are noisier is because the metering system of the camera forces a lower sensor exposure for the higher ISOs, since the camera is then using a fraction of the sensor's dynamic range to create the digitized image. As the camera changes the DR used in the sensor, the amount of noise in the sensor remains the same, so the signal-to-noise ration is lower, and you get a noisier image.
It is not true, however, that a higher ISO means more noise relative to a certain signal level in the sensor; in fact, just the opposite is true for many cameras. The image noise, relative to signal in the sensor (as contrasted to signal in the range used by the ISO) is actually lower at higher ISOs, and part of the reason for this is that the same number of digitized levels (or very similar) are used at various ISOs, so the same sensor signal gets coarser digitization at the lower ISOs. With some cameras, noise increases at a slower rate than ISO increase by a considerable amount. The Canon 20D has total blackframe noise that has standard deviations that increase like this:
ISO Std Dev
100 2.1 200 2.2 400 2.4 800 3.2 1600 4.7
Those are based on RAW values, so they are relative to the fraction of the DR in the sensor used by the ISO. Relative to absolute sensor signal, using ISO 100 as a standard, we get:
ISO Std Dev
100 2.1 200 1.1 400 0.6 800 0.4 1600 0.3
So, if you under-expose an ISO 100 image at -2 EC, you will have 7x as much noise (relative to signal) as if you had shot it at ISO 1600 with +2 EC (this assumes that the scene is of sufficiently low contrast that +2 EC does not clip desired highlights). This is important to understand, as many people seem to blindly assume that they will always get less noise by using lower ISOs. With this particular camera (Canon 20D), there really is very little reason to go below ISO 400, if you are on a limited photon budget. ISO 100 is actually a little crippled on many cameras, as the RAW data may be clipped low or distorted to accomodate sensor saturation, causing color issues in extreme highlights. My 20D never goes below ISO 200 anymore, unless I really need a longer shutter speed or a wider aperture, and don't want to blow the highlights.
Here is a visual demonstration. Both crops are shot 10 seconds apart (same light), on a tripod, with the same shutter speed and f-stop in manual exposure mode, except that one is ISO 100, and the other is ISO 1600. The entire image was exposed at ISO 1600 for +2 EC, and the crops are from a much darker area, are pushed to ISO 6400 in the 10D image, and ISO 10,000 in the ISO 1600 image. The images are the original RAW data, with blackpoint (128) subtracted first, color channels interpolated to fill a full 8.2MP for each color, scaled for the push, white-balanced, and a 2.2 gamma applied. The image colors are dull, but that's the way RAW color is; you can see, however, how saturated the color of the noise is in the ISO 100 image:
http://www.pbase.com/jps_photo/image/57149515/original
So, one can conclude that the higher ISO does a much better job of capturing the DR of the sensor to which it is assigned.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< JPS@no.komm - 12 Mar 2006 17:32 GMT >The entire image was exposed at ISO 1600 for +2 EC, and the crops >are from a much darker area, are pushed to ISO 6400 in the 10D image, >and ISO 10,000 in the ISO 1600 image. Sorry, I wrote that part right after I woke up. Both crops are pushed to ISO 10,000.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Steve - 13 Mar 2006 02:24 GMT Thanks, this wasn't covered in my photo classes. It's also a much better answer than "amplification".
Steve
Alan Browne - 12 Mar 2006 18:49 GMT >> I'd like to know how the same sensor can be two very different speeds. >>I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > digitization is in making the signal large compared to the noise so that the > small signals (usually noise) can just be thrown away.) Since the camera does not know noise from signal, noise gets amplified too. Astronomers get around this by making many long exposures adding up signals above a threshold and deleting signals below that threshold, but this technique is of very limited value in short duration, single exposure photography.
Cheers, Alan
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george - 13 Mar 2006 03:49 GMT >>> I'd like to know how the same sensor can be two very different speeds. >>> I [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Cheers, > Alan I haven't given this portion a lot of thought (yet), but I am inclined to believe that the most accurate measurement of hot pixels would be at a long exposure time so as to minimize the effects of noise for the very reason you state above. Any thoughts on this?
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 13 Mar 2006 07:24 GMT > I haven't given this portion a lot of thought (yet), but I am inclined to > believe that the most accurate measurement of hot pixels would be at a long > exposure time so as to minimize the effects of noise for the very reason you > state above. Any thoughts on this? Yes, see: Procedures for Evaluating Digital Camera Noise and Full Well Capacities; Canon 1D Mark II Analysis http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-1d2
See Figure 4.
Roger
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 14 Mar 2006 15:02 GMT > I'd like to know how the same sensor can be two very different speeds. I > know that higher speeds are noisier, but what is the camera doing > differently? They increase gain on the sensor [pixels]. Increasing gain on the sensor is noisy, but nearly so much as adjusting exposure after the picture has been taken, due to the data getting crushed into the shadows of your image, where you have the least amount of data capture.
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