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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / March 2006

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Question about the Pentax *ist D

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Frank Calidonna - 05 Mar 2006 19:30 GMT
I am ready to move to a digital slr for some of my photo work. I have
used Pentax for over thirty years and have a lot of lenses so the *ist D
seems to be where I want to go. Right now I have a Canon G5 which I
love, but want to use some of my longer tele lenses for photgraphing
birds. I also like the *ist D because it has features such as a pc
terminal for studio work.

That said I read mixed reviews about the *ist D. I want a very sharp
image and if the camera is a bit soft to reduce noise that does not
bother me as long as it can be well corrected in PhotoShop or Photo
Paint. What is the experience of you who own the camera? I would hate to
lose the use of my present lenses, but am not sure what to do right now.

Thank you for your advice.

Frank
Pete D - 05 Mar 2006 20:00 GMT
The  D will do everything you want to do and then some, however it may be
worth waiting for the D replacement later this year. BTW the Ds will prwtty
much do what you want as well including tethered.

>I am ready to move to a digital slr for some of my photo work. I have used
>Pentax for over thirty years and have a lot of lenses so the *ist D seems
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Frank
Bronek Kozicki - 05 Mar 2006 20:24 GMT
> That said I read mixed reviews about the *ist D. I want a very sharp
> image and if the camera is a bit soft to reduce noise that does not

JPEG generated in-camera is little soft, but very few advanced users
users need it - most will just use RAW, as with any other semi-pro DSLR
camera. RAW is as sharp as your lens permits - and some Pentax lenses
are very sharp indeed. And obviously noise reduction works much, much
better on RAW image.

B.
Alan Browne - 05 Mar 2006 20:44 GMT
> I am ready to move to a digital slr for some of my photo work. I have
> used Pentax for over thirty years and have a lot of lenses so the *ist D
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Paint. What is the experience of you who own the camera? I would hate to
> lose the use of my present lenses, but am not sure what to do right now.

Get the *ist D and be happy.  As Pentax use Sony sensors there is a good
chance that they'll adopt the same 10 Mpix sensor that's in the Nikon
D200.  Don't worry about reviews.  You should expect images as sharp as
the following link if you use a lens as good as the lens used for this shot:
(Maxxum 7D at ISO 100, flash, 100 f/2.8 macro lens).
2.5 MB, be sure to view it at 100% zoom.

Cheers,
Alan

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Chimp - 05 Mar 2006 20:50 GMT
>I am ready to move to a digital slr for some of my photo work. I have used
>Pentax for over thirty years and have a lot of lenses so the *ist D seems
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Frank

OK, I own a 'D', and the reported image softness was one of my original
concerns.

Compared to a Nikon D70, jpg's from the D are not as obviously 'sharp' out
of the camera - which is to say, the D does not apply large amounts of
in-camera processing a la Nikon.

I found that, compared to the D70, the *ist D made a better job of images -
not being hampered by the D70's tendency to introduce artefacts,
particularly in the case of text.  With the D70, every fifth or sixth letter
on a printed page was rendered blue or red due to the aggressive firmware
sharpening.  With the *ist D, text was perfectly clear - and, after modest
use of PP sharpening, was equally as sharp (minus the artefacts)

When it comes to RAW, the *ist D comes into its own - images are excellent.

The D is better built than the subsequent DS & DL models - all of which are
reduced price variants of the original model.  The D was made to a
specification, while the others were made to a price.

Shutter mechanism, AF speed, features, and build quality are all better/much
better on the D. - plus, the D offers a battery grip which transforms the
ergonomics of the camera.

HTH
frederick - 06 Mar 2006 08:13 GMT
>>I am ready to move to a digital slr for some of my photo work. I have used
>>Pentax for over thirty years and have a lot of lenses so the *ist D seems
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> sharpening.  With the *ist D, text was perfectly clear - and, after modest
> use of PP sharpening, was equally as sharp (minus the artefacts)

I think that you have identified something slightly incorrectly.  There
is also with the D70 a significant difference in acuity between jpegs
produced in camera, and from images from RAW.  Perhaps if there is a
"better" camera for ex-camera jpegs, it is made by Canon.

The D70 /s does not have "aggressive firmware sharpening".  The primary
difference is that Nikon use very weak anti-aliasing filters compared to
other makers, which raises the possibility of introducing moire.
But the coloured text isn't exactly moire.  It is the result of
inaccurate demosiacing (sp?) of the bayer pattern, most likely a result
of poor RAW conversion of images where detail is rendered at the single
pixel level, and less evident with stronger AA on other cameras.  With
good RAW conversion (Nikon Capture or Pixmantic), it does not occur.
Pixel sharp images from a D70 will however produce artifacts from jpeg
compression.  However, since you are talking about optimising output by
using a raw workflow, then over compressing jpegs shouldn't be a problem.
Tony Polson - 05 Mar 2006 22:39 GMT
>I am ready to move to a digital slr for some of my photo work. I have
>used Pentax for over thirty years and have a lot of lenses so the *ist D
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Paint. What is the experience of you who own the camera? I would hate to
>lose the use of my present lenses, but am not sure what to do right now.

The *ist D is an excellent camera, especially considering the fact it
is a couple of years old now.  It uses basically the same Sony CCD
sensor as in the Nikon D100, D70, D70s and D50 and Konica Minolta 7D
and 5D and provides better image quality than all except the later
Nikon D70s and D50.

To get the best out of the *ist D you need to shoot RAW rather than
let the camera shoot JPEGs.  You also need to ensure the firmware is
kept up to date.  There were some problems with flash actuation on
some early models but these were mostly sorted under warranty.

The compatibility with Pentax autofocus and manual focus K bayonet
lenses and M42 screw mount Takumars is excellent.  

The later *ist DS, DL, DS2 and DL2 produce slightly better image
quality but the differences are small.  The *ist D is no longer
available new, so if you want a new model you must buy one of these
later variants.  They lack the PC flash socket and the DL models have
a cheaper, slightly dim viewfinder thanks to using a "pentamirror"
rather than a pentaprism.  The later models also have only one control
dial - the twin dials on the *ist D can be very useful, allowing
shutter speed to be adjusted on one dial and lens aperture on the
other.

I would not hesitate to recommend the *ist D, but for the fact that
Pentax have announced that a 10 MP replacement, using the same Sony
sensor as in the Nikon D200, will be available Q4/2006.  If the extra
MP is important to you, I think it would be wise to wait for that
model.  

I have an *ist D as a back up to a Canon EOS 5D outfit and have just
ordered a second 5D body, so I won't be waiting around for the new
model from Pentax.  However, if continuing to use older Pentax lenses
is important to you, the 10MP Pentax would probably be an excellent
buy if you can wait another 8-9 months.

Or, in the meantime, buy a 6 MP *ist D and keep it as a spare body
when you upgrade to 10 MP.


Ryan Robbins - 06 Mar 2006 10:09 GMT
>The *ist D is no longer
> available new, so if you want a new model you must buy one of these
> later variants.

B&H still has *ist Ds in its inventory.
Tony Polson - 06 Mar 2006 20:55 GMT
>>The *ist D is no longer
>> available new, so if you want a new model you must buy one of these
>> later variants.
>
>B&H still has *ist Ds in its inventory.

That's interesting, thanks.  In Europe the last of the *ist Ds were
sold over a year ago.  Occasionally, Pentax UK releases a small batch
of refurbished models - that's how I got mine.
Alan Browne - 07 Mar 2006 00:30 GMT
>>I am ready to move to a digital slr for some of my photo work. I have
>>used Pentax for over thirty years and have a lot of lenses so the *ist D
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> and 5D and provides better image quality than all except the later
> Nikon D70s and D50.

Bullshit.  It is fine on all of the cameras.  If Tony Polson had any
proof to post, he would; but he doesn't so he just posts crap like the
above.

> To get the best out of the *ist D you need to shoot RAW rather than
> let the camera shoot JPEGs.

Like that isn't the same for any DSLR.  Geez Tony, at least be original.

Sheesh.  Post your Paris Match cover Tony.  Show your STUFF!

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Broake - 07 Mar 2006 00:44 GMT
>>>I am ready to move to a digital slr for some of my photo work. I have
>>>used Pentax for over thirty years and have a lot of lenses so the *ist D
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Bullshit.  It is fine on all of the cameras.  If Tony Polson had any proof
> to post, he would; but he doesn't so he just posts crap like the above.

Actually, it's not 'fine' on the D70 - I know, because I used to own one.

The D70 offers a superficial 'sharpness', which is generated entirely by
harsh in-camera processing.

The *st D takes a more adult approach, and produces images that respond well
to thoughtful sharpening in PP

Plus, take away the rather good Nikon kit lens and the D70 is revealed for
what it is - a cheap lightweight plastic box - with several annoying
idiosyncrasies, like trying to zoom a previously taken image.

The *ist D is, without doubt, much the better of the two cameras, and one
that was/is greatly underrated.
frederick - 07 Mar 2006 05:21 GMT
>>>>I am ready to move to a digital slr for some of my photo work. I have
>>>>used Pentax for over thirty years and have a lot of lenses so the *ist D
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> The D70 offers a superficial 'sharpness', which is generated entirely by
> harsh in-camera processing.

Rubbish - it has a weak aa filter!  No (zero zilch) in camera sharpening!

> The *st D takes a more adult approach, and produces images that respond well
> to thoughtful sharpening in PP
>
> Plus, take away the rather good Nikon kit lens and the D70 is revealed for
> what it is - a cheap lightweight plastic box - with several annoying
> idiosyncrasies, like trying to zoom a previously taken image.

By pressing a button and rotating a thumbwheel?
Jeesh, the D70 is one of the most ergonomic and least idiosynchratic of
all the lower cost dslrs.

> The *ist D is, without doubt, much the better of the two cameras, and one
> that was/is greatly underrated.
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 07 Mar 2006 13:28 GMT
> Actually, it's not 'fine' on the D70 - I know, because I used to own one.
>
> The D70 offers a superficial 'sharpness', which is generated entirely by
> harsh in-camera processing.

The amount of sharpenning is completely controllable.  It can be set to
various levels of "aggressiveness", or shut off entirely.  It really
only applies to JPEG images.  So ... just shoot RAW and adopt a RAW
workflow.

> The *st D takes a more adult approach, and produces images that respond well
> to thoughtful sharpening in PP
>
> Plus, take away the rather good Nikon kit lens and the D70 is revealed for
> what it is - a cheap lightweight plastic box - with several annoying
> idiosyncrasies, like trying to zoom a previously taken image.

Troll.

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Broake - 07 Mar 2006 13:32 GMT
>> Actually, it's not 'fine' on the D70 - I know, because I used to own one.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Troll.

It ill becomes someone with such a bloody silly name to call another poster
'Troll'
Alan Browne - 08 Mar 2006 00:38 GMT
> It ill becomes someone with such a bloody silly name to call another poster
> 'Troll'

Let's see.  You've never, ever posted here ever before, but come out on
this point and then attack somebody over his name.

Hmm.

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Pete D - 08 Mar 2006 06:37 GMT
>> It ill becomes someone with such a bloody silly name to call another
>> poster 'Troll'
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Hmm.

Are you sure it is not Douglas using one of his seven hundred aliases?
Paul Mitchum - 06 Mar 2006 00:44 GMT
> I am ready to move to a digital slr for some of my photo work. I have used
> Pentax for over thirty years and have a lot of lenses so the *ist D seems
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> experience of you who own the camera? I would hate to lose the use of my
> present lenses, but am not sure what to do right now.

The camera isn't 'soft' at all, especially if you shoot RAW. The kit
lens (18-55) is probably softer than you want it to be, and that's
probably what you're reading about in reviews. If you have your own
lenses that you like, then it won't be an issue.

I shoot RAW on an *ist DS with a variety of old-skool lenses (Pentax and
Tamron), and you can see some of what I've done here:
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/mile23/>.

Also, an article about using older manual-focus and manual-aperture
lenses on Pentax *ist digital cameras: <http://www.mile23.com/node/26>
Frank Calidonna - 06 Mar 2006 02:16 GMT
>>I am ready to move to a digital slr for some of my photo work. I have used
>>Pentax for over thirty years and have a lot of lenses so the *ist D seems
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Also, an article about using older manual-focus and manual-aperture
> lenses on Pentax *ist digital cameras: <http://www.mile23.com/node/26>
Thank all of you very much for your input. I'll be purchasing an * istD
soon. Thank all again.

  Frank
RiceHigh - 07 Mar 2006 08:47 GMT
If you need a PC terminal and want a Pentax DSLR, I strongly suggest
that you should wait for the next Pentax 10M DSLR model if you don't
need the DSLR body urgently. I replaced my *ist D with a *ist Ds. One
of the good reasons is that the color response of the DS is far better
in many situations, especially when the latest digital lenses are used.
Or, I should say the color response of the *ist D is simply strange
somehow and this problem has already eliminated with the DS. In the
field, the metering accuracy of the Ds is still better than the D,
although there is still much room for improvement.

RiceHigh
http://www.geocities.com/ricehigh
Ryan Robbins - 06 Mar 2006 10:04 GMT
> That said I read mixed reviews about the *ist D. I want a very sharp image
> and if the camera is a bit soft to reduce noise that does not bother me as
> long as it can be well corrected in PhotoShop or Photo Paint. What is the
> experience of you who own the camera? I would hate to lose the use of my
> present lenses, but am not sure what to do right now.

Yes, the *ist D does shoot a bit on the soft side, but you can sharpen to
your requirements easily in Photoshop. Pentax just announced that it plans
to release a 10-megapixel replacement for the *ist D this coming fall, so
you might consider waiting awhile longer.
corks - 07 Mar 2006 09:36 GMT
for the record, i have a pentax *ist DS , which i think takes great photos
imho

might not have all the whizz bag features, but its was good value and i
could use my exisitng 35mm lenses from my pentax z-70 days with it.

if i win lotto i want a d20 or a d5 tho :-)

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>I am ready to move to a digital slr for some of my photo work. I have used
>Pentax for over thirty years and have a lot of lenses so the *ist D seems
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Frank
Pete D - 07 Mar 2006 11:06 GMT
What features do you think it is missing? I have looked and dont see to much
if anything missing.

> for the record, i have a pentax *ist DS , which i think takes great photos
> imho
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>>
>> Frank
Darrell Larose - 07 Mar 2006 12:31 GMT
> What features do you think it is missing? I have looked and dont see to
> much if anything missing.

Pentax is missing the hype! I have people asking when we will be getting the
Canon 30D, so they can trade-in their 20D... Because it's new!

>> for the record, i have a pentax *ist DS , which i think takes great
>> photos imho
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>>>
>>> Frank
Paul Mitchum - 07 Mar 2006 21:17 GMT
> > What features do you think [the Pentax *ist D line] is missing? I have
> > looked and dont see to much if anything missing.
>
> Pentax is missing the hype!

You got that right!

There's nothing missing except the marketing and image stabilization
lenses. If either of those is important to you, choose another brand.
Tony Polson - 08 Mar 2006 12:02 GMT
>> > What features do you think [the Pentax *ist D line] is missing? I have
>> > looked and dont see to much if anything missing.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>There's nothing missing except the marketing and image stabilization
>lenses. If either of those is important to you, choose another brand.

The 10MP Pentax replacement for the *ist D, due Q4/2006, will have
in-camera image stabilisation.  Hopefully, Pentax designers will have
used the months since the introduction of Konica Minolta's Anti-Shake
mechanism (in the Maxxum 7D) to ensure that Konica Minolta's mistakes
are not repeated in the new design.
corks - 08 Mar 2006 12:08 GMT
what mistakes out of interest ???

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> The 10MP Pentax replacement for the *ist D, due Q4/2006, will have
> in-camera image stabilisation.  Hopefully, Pentax designers will have
> used the months since the introduction of Konica Minolta's Anti-Shake
> mechanism (in the Maxxum 7D) to ensure that Konica Minolta's mistakes
> are not repeated in the new design.
Tony Polson - 08 Mar 2006 12:36 GMT
>what mistakes out of interest ???

Konica Minolta's in-camera Anti-Shake is far less effective than
Canon's IS and Nikon's VR, both of which are in-lens systems.  

The latest generation of Nikon's VR consistently offers a better than
three stop improvement in shutter speed and Canon's IS is not far
behind.  Konica Minolta's system struggles to offer a two stop
improvement and it gets less effective with longer focal lengths,
which is of course where you need it most.

I was merely expressing a hope that Pentax can learn from Konica
Minolta's mistakes and offer a system that works rather better.  The
poor performance of Konica Minolta's Anti-Shake is one of the reasons
the Maxxum 7D and 5D didn't sell, and the resulting very poor sales
contributed to Konica Minolta's decision to desert the photography
sector for good.

Pentax have managed to survive by being cautious and not making such
mistakes.  For example, Pentax abandoned development of their first AF
system when it didn't work, and still survived.  Pentax abandoned
development of their first Digital SLR when the full frame Philips
sensor didn't work, and still survived.  

Contrast that with Kyocera, manufacturers of Contax, whose N Digital
SLR was introduced with the same Philips sensor, and bombed in the
market.  Now Kyocera have deserted the photography sector for good.

That's why it's important not to make mistakes.  Konica Minolta and
Kyocera paid a heavy price for making products that didn't work as
they should, and therefore didn't sell.  

Pentax is a sensible company, not given to over-optimistic and rash
decisions.  So I trust that time is being well spent in making Pentax
image stabilisation work rather better than Konica Minolta's does.

I hope that makes things clearer.
corks - 08 Mar 2006 14:32 GMT
cool no probs, i wasnt having a go , i was just curious as the mistakes made

what do you think of panasonics image stabilisation on say its fz30 then ???

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>>what mistakes out of interest ???
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I hope that makes things clearer.
Tony Polson - 08 Mar 2006 22:46 GMT
>cool no probs, i wasnt having a go , i was just curious as the mistakes made
>
>what do you think of panasonics image stabilisation on say its fz30 then ???

On the compact Panasonic point and shoot digicams, it's excellent.  

The much smaller sensors only need to be moved a very small distance
to eliminate camera shake.  It is when you scale the whole thing up to
an APS-C sized sensor that the problems become more challenging.

You will note that Panasonic's first DSLR will have anti-shake in the
lenses, not the body. It uses the Four Thirds format, so the sensor is
much nearer the APS-C size sensors than the point and shoot sensors.  

I hope Pentax gets it right in the 10MP DSLR, because if not, the
company could share the same fate as Kyocera and Konica Minolta - dead
and buried in a very short time.  
John Bean - 08 Mar 2006 22:57 GMT
>>cool no probs, i wasnt having a go , i was just curious as the mistakes made
>>
>>what do you think of panasonics image stabilisation on say its fz30 then ???
>
>On the compact Panasonic point and shoot digicams, it's excellent.  

Agreed.

>The much smaller sensors only need to be moved a very small distance
>to eliminate camera shake.  It is when you scale the whole thing up to
>an APS-C sized sensor that the problems become more challenging.

But Panasonic don't move the sensor, you're thinking of
Minolta.

>You will note that Panasonic's first DSLR will have anti-shake in the
>lenses, not the body. It uses the Four Thirds format, so the sensor is
>much nearer the APS-C size sensors than the point and shoot sensors.  

*All* Panasonic cameras already have anti-shake in the
lenses, not the body.

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Tony Polson - 09 Mar 2006 00:02 GMT
>But Panasonic don't move the sensor, you're thinking of
>Minolta.

John,

I didn't say anywhere that Panasonic moved the sensor, but thank you
for pointing out that what I wrote was a little unclear.

Tony
Alan Browne - 10 Mar 2006 00:49 GMT
>>what mistakes out of interest ???
>
> Konica Minolta's in-camera Anti-Shake is far less effective than
> Canon's IS and Nikon's VR, both of which are in-lens systems.  

Wrong.  VR/IS lenses are genrerally (but not always) good for 3 stops of
effeciveness v. "rule of thumb".  The Minolta systems (A-S) is good for
2 stops, sometimes a little more.

> The latest generation of Nikon's VR consistently offers a better than
> three stop improvement in shutter speed and Canon's IS is not far
> behind.  

Please post proof, Tony.  It would be refreshing.

>  Konica Minolta's system struggles to offer a two stop
> improvement and it gets less effective with longer focal lengths,
> which is of course where you need it most.

False.

> I was merely expressing a hope that Pentax can learn from Konica
> Minolta's mistakes and offer a system that works rather better.  The
> poor performance of Konica Minolta's Anti-Shake is one of the reasons
> the Maxxum 7D and 5D didn't sell, and the resulting very poor sales
> contributed to Konica Minolta's decision to desert the photography
> sector for good.

They started into digital SLR too late.  That was the only downfall.
Too many people had jumped ship to Canon (and even in a few cases to Nikon).

> I hope that makes things clearer.

No.  As usual you have muddied the waters to fit your own agenda.

Please do post some of your photography. It's way past due.

Cheers,
Alan

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Alan Browne - 10 Mar 2006 00:51 GMT
> The 10MP Pentax replacement for the *ist D, due Q4/2006, will have
> in-camera image stabilisation.  Hopefully, Pentax designers will have
> used the months since the introduction of Konica Minolta's Anti-Shake
> mechanism (in the Maxxum 7D) to ensure that Konica Minolta's mistakes
> are not repeated in the new design.

You are certainly agenda minded.  And wrong.

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Cheesehead - 07 Mar 2006 12:43 GMT
I use the DS.
You can get all the technical expertise needed at http://www.pdml.net.
Subscribe there and post your questions.  Lots of experts and pros
available.
Yes, there are pros who use Pentax.
This should be in line with your expectations:
http://www.markcassino.com

Hopefully your lenses are A, F, or FA.  You can you the K & M series
lenses
but, on the D, need to push that little green button to set the
aperture.
Let me know if you have any lenses that you need to part with.  :)

Consider the DS along with the D as options.  It's newer and there have
been
changes, mostly for the better.  imnsho.

Enjoy,

Collin
KC8TKA
Tony Polson - 07 Mar 2006 13:18 GMT
>Consider the DS along with the D as options.  It's newer and there have
>been changes, mostly for the better.  imnsho.

Two changes for the worse are the lack of a PC socket and the omission
of one of the two control dials.  Those omissions were more than
enough for many people to continue to choose the D over the DS.  The
DS's "newness" is not in itself necessarily a virtue when genuinely
useful features have been deleted solely to cut costs.

What were the changes for the better?  
John Bean - 07 Mar 2006 13:45 GMT
>>Consider the DS along with the D as options.  It's newer and there have
>>been changes, mostly for the better.  imnsho.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>DS's "newness" is not in itself necessarily a virtue when genuinely
>useful features have been deleted solely to cut costs.

You missed the abilty to work TTL (rather than P-TTL) with
the popup flash and the ability to use it as a wireless
controller.

>What were the changes for the better?  

Faster I/O, flashing blown highlight warning and instant
histogram in preview, a joypad that actually works...

Sure it's a "cut down" *istD but it also has some new
strings to its bow.

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John Bean

Tony Polson - 07 Mar 2006 13:50 GMT
>You missed the abilty to work TTL (rather than P-TTL) with
>the popup flash and the ability to use it as a wireless
>controller.

Thanks John.
Pete D - 08 Mar 2006 06:40 GMT
>>Consider the DS along with the D as options.  It's newer and there have
>>been changes, mostly for the better.  imnsho.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> What were the changes for the better?

Actually the PC tethering does work, just use the D software that you can
download from Pentax, pulls the photos straight into your PC.
Ron - 07 Mar 2006 18:21 GMT
For whaterver it's worth my Pentax K lenses work beautifully on my Oly
E-300 with an adapter. Run em' in either the completely automatic or
Aperture Priority modes and focus manually. Beautiful sharp results. I
chose the Oly because I have been very happy with several other of
their digicams.
 
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