Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

How accurate are the colors on the monitor for a DSLR?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Steve - 24 Feb 2006 17:03 GMT
   For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors
accurate? Or do I have to view the picture (maybe with a Gretag Macbeth
colorchecker card) on a calibrated monitor to see the true colors?

   To get even more complicated, I notice that the same picture opened by
Irfanview v3.98 and Photoshop 7.0 look (slightly) different. Maybe this is a
subject for a different newsgroup.

Thanks for all the helpful answers, past and future,

Steve
All Things Mopar - 24 Feb 2006 17:17 GMT
Today Steve commented courteously on the subject at hand

>     For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor.
>     Are the colors
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> different. Maybe this is a subject for a different
> newsgroup.

What is your definitions of "accurate"? Lab-correct
wavelengths of the 16.7 million colors possible, how your
camera, multiple apps, your PC's video card and monitor
settings? Yes, they will /always/ be different, and they will
vary according to subject, lighting, brightness/contrast,
photometric settings in the camera, exposure variations, not
to mention lighting brightness and color temperature in the
room(s) or outside as you view these. And, are you using any
color calibration profiles anywhere in your workflow? e.g., a
color profile in PS7 but not Irfanview? And, if you stray into
the tall weeds of printing, all bets are off again, as what is
"accurate" and "right" now is complicated by the concept of
reflected vs. transmitted light.

In the final analysis, though, what is "accurate" or "right"
is a rather personal thing. I've long thought there are at
least 3 defs: 1) what is technically correct including color
temperature, 2) what looks "right" to you, and, most
important, 3) simply what you prefer. 1) has one and only one
answer, but 2) and 3) are infinite and variable from picture
to picture

So, please help us by telling us more of what you're trying to
do, the subject(s) you shoot, whether daylight or indoors
available light or with flash, how you're camera is set-up,
etc., and whether you view yourself as a creative, artistic,
documentary, or some other kind of photographer. All of those
things, and many more, drastically affect any human's
perception of "accuracy" and "right".

Then, there's "precision", which most folks mistakenly think
is a synonym for "accuracy", but is not.

Signature

ATM, aka Jerry

Steve - 24 Feb 2006 17:59 GMT
> Today Steve commented courteously on the subject at hand
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> --
> ATM, aka Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From: All Things Mopar
Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: How accurate are the colors on the monitor for a DSLR?

   Wow...maybe I was a little vague. I'm just getting started printing
photos. So far I'm printing scanned slides (Acadia National Park is my home)
and I've been lucky in that by just doing some adjustments to my monitor
what I see there usually comes out of the printer, and it is very close to
the original slide. No spyder, no calibration software, no verb:) Monitor,
printer, scanner, and printer(little ole Epson 925) line up pretty well.

   So after reading your post and focusing my thoughts, I guess what I'm
wondering is will my DSLR monitor be useful in judging if I got the white
balance ,etc. right in the shot, or do I need to haul the flash card back to
my desk top to have a look see? I haven't heard of any way to bring the DSLR
monitor into the workflow.

Steve
Paul Furman - 24 Feb 2006 18:16 GMT
>     Wow... ...I guess what I'm
> wondering is will my DSLR monitor be useful in judging if I got the white
> balance ,etc. right in the shot, or do I need to haul the flash card back to
> my desk top to have a look see? I haven't heard of any way to bring the DSLR
> monitor into the workflow.

I can tell if the auto WB went weird on the camera LCD but contrast is
hard to judge depending on viewing conditions. But if you are concerned,
definitely shoot raw, it makes adjusting WB a breeze. Much easier than
tweaking a jpeg in PS!
Paul Furman - 24 Feb 2006 17:32 GMT
>     For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors
> accurate?

I don't know about color but brightness & contrast is generally suspect
on most LCDs because the angle of view effects that. Brightness &
contrast are also dependant on camera settings and irrelevant when
shooting raw.. and the LCD & histograms don't show raw, just the
processed jpeg. I suppose cranking down contrast in the camera settings
would be the more realistic way of working even if shooting raw but if
you do raw plus jpeg that spoils the effect of applying 'normal' contrast.

> Or do I have to view the picture (maybe with a Gretag Macbeth
> colorchecker card) on a calibrated monitor to see the true colors?
>
>     To get even more complicated, I notice that the same picture opened by
> Irfanview v3.98 and Photoshop 7.0 look (slightly) different. Maybe this is a
> subject for a different newsgroup.

Probably you are shooting in AdobeRGB and Irfanview is only able to
assume sRGB. Irfan is great for quick & dirty browsing though.
Steve - 24 Feb 2006 18:10 GMT
> >     For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors
> > accurate?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> would be the more realistic way of working even if shooting raw but if
> you do raw plus jpeg that spoils the effect of applying 'normal' contrast.

I didn't realize that the LCD only displayed a JPEG, huh! It seems like the
LCD, along with the histogram will tell you if the exposure is close, but
you have to get to your work station to see if the shot has the right white
balance, etc. and skin tones aren't too blue or yellow.

> > Or do I have to view the picture (maybe with a Gretag Macbeth
> > colorchecker card) on a calibrated monitor to see the true colors?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Probably you are shooting in AdobeRGB and Irfanview is only able to
> assume sRGB. Irfan is great for quick & dirty browsing though.

Those are both true.

Steve
Paul Furman - 24 Feb 2006 18:25 GMT
>>>    For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors
>>>accurate?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I didn't realize that the LCD only displayed a JPEG, huh!

But at least the D200 shows separate color channels in the histogram (I
think).

> It seems like the
> LCD, along with the histogram will tell you if the exposure is close, but
> you have to get to your work station to see if the shot has the right white
> balance, etc. and skin tones aren't too blue or yellow.

You can tell pretty well on the LCD. Not precisely but decent.

>>>Or do I have to view the picture (maybe with a Gretag Macbeth
>>>colorchecker card) on a calibrated monitor to see the true colors?
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Steve

Signature

Paul Furman
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives
http://www.baynatives.com

Steve - 24 Feb 2006 19:17 GMT
> >>>    For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors
> >>>accurate?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> But at least the D200 shows separate color channels in the histogram (I
> think).

   It does. If all three histograms aren't clipped doesn't that mean the
exposure is correct? Is there any other info you can get from the
histograms?

   I knew there would be a steep learning curve when I bought this camera,
no matter how much I've read already. It still has been a little
overwhelming, trying to get decent prints. I miss my slides and scanner
sometimes.

> > It seems like the
> > LCD, along with the histogram will tell you if the exposure is close, but
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Bay Natives
> http://www.baynatives.com
Paul Furman - 24 Feb 2006 20:37 GMT
> "Paul Furman" <paul-@-edgehill.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>     It does. If all three histograms aren't clipped doesn't that mean the
> exposure is correct?

Yes but it's not the raw histogram so a little clipping is usually OK.
Turning down contrast & saturation should make it closer. Of course
sometimes you might want to clip highlights to get more shadow detail.

> Is there any other info you can get from the
> histograms?

>     I knew there would be a steep learning curve when I bought this camera,
> no matter how much I've read already. It still has been a little
> overwhelming, trying to get decent prints. I miss my slides and scanner
> sometimes.
JPS@no.komm - 24 Feb 2006 23:36 GMT
>But at least the D200 shows separate color channels in the histogram (I
>think).

Some cameras do, but even that can still be a bit deceiving, if you're
looking for optimal RAW capture.  RAW conversion has to change hue,
saturation, and brightness based on RAW hue and saturation.  The red,
green, and blue filters in the camera do not correspond to red, blue,
and green in the displays we use.  Red is often orange in the RAW data,
blue is purple, etc., even after white-balancing it.  Real-world
saturated reds are boosted in luminance in the output, etc,

One case in which taking a JPEG-based RGB histogram literally over a
luminance histogram can result in an even worse exposure decision is
with some red flowers; they clip the red channel in the JPEG, while the
luminance histogram looks OK.  The red channel in the RAW data can still
be 1 to 2 stops away from clipping, but an RGB histogram of the JPEG
would show the red as clipped, suggesting taking the picture again at a
lower exposure, making the entire image under-exposed.

What RAW shooters really need is a RAW RGB histogram, unpolluted by
white balance, color profiles, or any other JPEG settings.  Either the
manufacturers are too ignorant (or too stratified) to understand the
value of this, or they simply don't care, as it has very little market
influence.  All they'd have to do is sample a pseudo-random subsample
(so as not to favor any geometric bias) of the raw pixels of each color,
to create a histogram without leaving all of the RAW data in memory.
There are many things that the manufacturers could do to make using
their cameras better, that cost almost nothing to implement, but they
just don't seem to care or understand.
Signature


<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Bart van der Wolf - 25 Feb 2006 00:23 GMT
SNIP
> What RAW shooters really need is a RAW RGB histogram,
> unpolluted by white balance, color profiles, or any other JPEG
> settings.

Either that, or a per channel clipping indicator.

The indicators could be as simple as flashing dots, and could be
triggered by a simple comparison between the bottom and the top part
of the highest histogram bin. Given the small LCD histograms there is
only a limited number of bins, so dividing the highest one (e.g. in
two equal halfs) wouldn't cost too much.

Based on that, more accurate Auto-ISO and clipping calculations could
easily be implemented, with an accuracy depending on available
processing power.

I'll have to search existing patents, but otherwise I'd claim it as
public domain prior art so it can be freely available for all.

Bart
babalooixnay@hotmail.com - 24 Feb 2006 22:40 GMT
> I didn't realize that the LCD only displayed a JPEG, huh! It seems like the
> LCD, along with the histogram will tell you if the exposure is close, but
> you have to get to your work station to see if the shot has the right white
> balance, etc. and skin tones aren't too blue or yellow.

Check your D200 manual carefully for what shows up in your LCD.  I use
a D50 and there is very little info in the manual.  I had to sort out
myself what is showing on the LCD.  A few weeks ago I realized how far
the JPEG settings will go in camera.

I was shooting moonlit scenes using tables for my exposure as my
lightmeter was somewhere else.  It was real cold out and I was
distracted and went into the tables wrong.  Things didn't feel right as
I had done similar shots before and the times, in the minutes, seemed
off.  After the first shot I looked at the LCD and the exposure was
roughly correct so didn't pay it any more mind and continued on using
the tables incorrectly.  When I downloaded everything later I was three
stops off on everything and quickly found the error I made in the
tables.  A quick look at the histogram probably would have showed me
that the LCD was showing me a JPEG of the raw file bumped up three
stops.  It made a viewable picture in the LCD but there was nothing
really there in the raw file to work with.
JPS@no.komm - 24 Feb 2006 23:44 GMT
>It made a viewable picture in the LCD but there was nothing
>really there in the raw file to work with.

Well, you should be able to emulate the LCD somehow on the monitor, but
the thing is, your brain sees a small LCD, sees that it has no real
black; sees that the contrast is very low, and expects very little from
it (and the lack of black hides noise).  On the monitor, your
expectations are higher, and using the Curves that would simulate the
LCD would be unacceptable to you.

To do the simulation, you might do something like raise the output
blackpoint in the PS "Levels" tool; and increase the gamma value (move
the middle triangle on the input line to the left).
Signature


<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Paul Furman - 25 Feb 2006 03:30 GMT
> I was shooting moonlit scenes using tables for my exposure as my
> lightmeter was somewhere else.  It was real cold out and I was
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> stops.  It made a viewable picture in the LCD but there was nothing
> really there in the raw file to work with.

Wow, three stops, that seems too much. My guess is the illusion of
viewing the LCD at night with your eyes adjusted for darkness could
explain that?
babalooixnay@hotmail.com - 25 Feb 2006 05:28 GMT
> Wow, three stops, that seems too much. My guess is the illusion of
> viewing the LCD at night with your eyes adjusted for darkness could
> explain that?

Surprised the hell out of me, too.  I've always wondered how the in
camera settings work, I read stuff about pre-programmed shots built in
to the firmware but I suspect it's a simple working with the histogram.
In my case I think it bumped up what exposure was there and spread out
what it could find.  Back on the monitor it was posterized to beat the
band but in the LCD it showed a reasonable picture.  You're probably
right about part of it being an illusion, a night shot, long exposure
and wondering what will show up, eyes atuned to darkness.  I've also
bracketed +2 and -2 with that camera playing with HDR stuff and had all
three show exactly the same brightness in the cameras monitor.
Alan Browne - 25 Feb 2006 18:18 GMT
> I was shooting moonlit scenes using tables for my exposure as my
> lightmeter was somewhere else.  It was real cold out and I was
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> stops.  It made a viewable picture in the LCD but there was nothing
> really there in the raw file to work with.

I suggest that you use the following "meterless" technique and not ever
rely on your monitor for low light shooting.

Cheers,
Alan

http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm
http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm#Light%20Intensity%20Chart
http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm#EXPOSURE%20FACTOR%20RELATIONSHIP%20CHART%20B

Signature

-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
--      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

Ed Ruf  (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 24 Feb 2006 21:52 GMT
>Probably you are shooting in AdobeRGB and Irfanview is only able to
>assume sRGB. Irfan is great for quick & dirty browsing though.

Irfanview isn't color managed, so it can't use a monitor profile either.
Signature

Ed Ruf    Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet2@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html

babalooixnay@hotmail.com - 24 Feb 2006 17:49 GMT
> For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors
> accurate? Or do I have to view the picture (maybe with a Gretag Macbeth
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Irfanview v3.98 and Photoshop 7.0 look (slightly) different. Maybe this is a
> subject for a different newsgroup.

I'm assuming the D200 is like earlier Nikons and you are seeing a JPEG
preview in your LCD.  What you see  on the LCD will be the result of
your JPEG settings inside the camera.  What you see on your monitor
(assuming that your camera and monitor are using the same settings,
colorspace and your monitor is calibrated should be the same for JPEGs
only.  Your camera will probably have at least sRGB and Adobe RGB 1998
settings, you'll have to check your monitor for it's settings)  Raw
files will be different on your monitor as no settings have been
applied.  I'm fairly new to digital and spent the past few months
dealing with color issues.  I did end up with a Spyder 2 to calibrate
my monitor and have sorted out the colorspace isssues.  I use Adobe RGB
1998 from camera through software.  The colorspace issue will come up
again when sending things to be printed.

There are good tutorials around the internet.  Try

http://luminous-landscape.com/

and

http://www.earthboundlight.com/

and

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm

All three of these websites are essentially chronicles of professional
photographers who've made the transition from film to digital and have
documented that transition with tips and tutorials in well indexed
archives.

Good luck!
Steve - 24 Feb 2006 17:57 GMT
> > For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors
> > accurate? Or do I have to view the picture (maybe with a Gretag Macbeth
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> 1998 from camera through software.  The colorspace issue will come up
> again when sending things to be printed.

That's what I was looking for, thanks!

> There are good tutorials around the internet.  Try
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Good luck!

I'm off to see the wizard.
John A. Stovall - 24 Feb 2006 23:04 GMT
>    For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors
>accurate? Or do I have to view the picture (maybe with a Gretag Macbeth
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Irfanview v3.98 and Photoshop 7.0 look (slightly) different. Maybe this is a
>subject for a different newsgroup.

First don't worry much about the camera display but calibration will
help.  

But you must calibrate your monitor or you are wasting your time if
you want get the best out of your photos.

Also each application must be able to support your calibrated monitor
profile.

You need to start learning about color management in your digital work
flow.  Get Fraser's book on the subject and start there.

**********************************************************

"A combat photographer should be able to make you see the
color of blood in black and white"

                    David Douglas Duncan
                Speaking on why in Vietnam
             he worked only in black and white
     http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/online/ddd/
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.