Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2006
How accurate are the colors on the monitor for a DSLR?
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Steve - 24 Feb 2006 17:03 GMT For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors accurate? Or do I have to view the picture (maybe with a Gretag Macbeth colorchecker card) on a calibrated monitor to see the true colors?
To get even more complicated, I notice that the same picture opened by Irfanview v3.98 and Photoshop 7.0 look (slightly) different. Maybe this is a subject for a different newsgroup.
Thanks for all the helpful answers, past and future,
Steve
All Things Mopar - 24 Feb 2006 17:17 GMT Today Steve commented courteously on the subject at hand
> For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. > Are the colors [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > different. Maybe this is a subject for a different > newsgroup. What is your definitions of "accurate"? Lab-correct wavelengths of the 16.7 million colors possible, how your camera, multiple apps, your PC's video card and monitor settings? Yes, they will /always/ be different, and they will vary according to subject, lighting, brightness/contrast, photometric settings in the camera, exposure variations, not to mention lighting brightness and color temperature in the room(s) or outside as you view these. And, are you using any color calibration profiles anywhere in your workflow? e.g., a color profile in PS7 but not Irfanview? And, if you stray into the tall weeds of printing, all bets are off again, as what is "accurate" and "right" now is complicated by the concept of reflected vs. transmitted light.
In the final analysis, though, what is "accurate" or "right" is a rather personal thing. I've long thought there are at least 3 defs: 1) what is technically correct including color temperature, 2) what looks "right" to you, and, most important, 3) simply what you prefer. 1) has one and only one answer, but 2) and 3) are infinite and variable from picture to picture
So, please help us by telling us more of what you're trying to do, the subject(s) you shoot, whether daylight or indoors available light or with flash, how you're camera is set-up, etc., and whether you view yourself as a creative, artistic, documentary, or some other kind of photographer. All of those things, and many more, drastically affect any human's perception of "accuracy" and "right".
Then, there's "precision", which most folks mistakenly think is a synonym for "accuracy", but is not.
 Signature ATM, aka Jerry
Steve - 24 Feb 2006 17:59 GMT > Today Steve commented courteously on the subject at hand > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > -- > ATM, aka Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: All Things Mopar Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:17 PM Subject: Re: How accurate are the colors on the monitor for a DSLR?
Wow...maybe I was a little vague. I'm just getting started printing photos. So far I'm printing scanned slides (Acadia National Park is my home) and I've been lucky in that by just doing some adjustments to my monitor what I see there usually comes out of the printer, and it is very close to the original slide. No spyder, no calibration software, no verb:) Monitor, printer, scanner, and printer(little ole Epson 925) line up pretty well.
So after reading your post and focusing my thoughts, I guess what I'm wondering is will my DSLR monitor be useful in judging if I got the white balance ,etc. right in the shot, or do I need to haul the flash card back to my desk top to have a look see? I haven't heard of any way to bring the DSLR monitor into the workflow.
Steve
Paul Furman - 24 Feb 2006 18:16 GMT > Wow... ...I guess what I'm > wondering is will my DSLR monitor be useful in judging if I got the white > balance ,etc. right in the shot, or do I need to haul the flash card back to > my desk top to have a look see? I haven't heard of any way to bring the DSLR > monitor into the workflow. I can tell if the auto WB went weird on the camera LCD but contrast is hard to judge depending on viewing conditions. But if you are concerned, definitely shoot raw, it makes adjusting WB a breeze. Much easier than tweaking a jpeg in PS!
Paul Furman - 24 Feb 2006 17:32 GMT > For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors > accurate? I don't know about color but brightness & contrast is generally suspect on most LCDs because the angle of view effects that. Brightness & contrast are also dependant on camera settings and irrelevant when shooting raw.. and the LCD & histograms don't show raw, just the processed jpeg. I suppose cranking down contrast in the camera settings would be the more realistic way of working even if shooting raw but if you do raw plus jpeg that spoils the effect of applying 'normal' contrast.
> Or do I have to view the picture (maybe with a Gretag Macbeth > colorchecker card) on a calibrated monitor to see the true colors? > > To get even more complicated, I notice that the same picture opened by > Irfanview v3.98 and Photoshop 7.0 look (slightly) different. Maybe this is a > subject for a different newsgroup. Probably you are shooting in AdobeRGB and Irfanview is only able to assume sRGB. Irfan is great for quick & dirty browsing though.
Steve - 24 Feb 2006 18:10 GMT > > For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors > > accurate? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > would be the more realistic way of working even if shooting raw but if > you do raw plus jpeg that spoils the effect of applying 'normal' contrast. I didn't realize that the LCD only displayed a JPEG, huh! It seems like the LCD, along with the histogram will tell you if the exposure is close, but you have to get to your work station to see if the shot has the right white balance, etc. and skin tones aren't too blue or yellow.
> > Or do I have to view the picture (maybe with a Gretag Macbeth > > colorchecker card) on a calibrated monitor to see the true colors? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Probably you are shooting in AdobeRGB and Irfanview is only able to > assume sRGB. Irfan is great for quick & dirty browsing though. Those are both true.
Steve
Paul Furman - 24 Feb 2006 18:25 GMT >>> For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors >>>accurate? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I didn't realize that the LCD only displayed a JPEG, huh! But at least the D200 shows separate color channels in the histogram (I think).
> It seems like the > LCD, along with the histogram will tell you if the exposure is close, but > you have to get to your work station to see if the shot has the right white > balance, etc. and skin tones aren't too blue or yellow. You can tell pretty well on the LCD. Not precisely but decent.
>>>Or do I have to view the picture (maybe with a Gretag Macbeth >>>colorchecker card) on a calibrated monitor to see the true colors? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Steve
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Steve - 24 Feb 2006 19:17 GMT > >>> For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors > >>>accurate? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > But at least the D200 shows separate color channels in the histogram (I > think). It does. If all three histograms aren't clipped doesn't that mean the exposure is correct? Is there any other info you can get from the histograms?
I knew there would be a steep learning curve when I bought this camera, no matter how much I've read already. It still has been a little overwhelming, trying to get decent prints. I miss my slides and scanner sometimes.
> > It seems like the > > LCD, along with the histogram will tell you if the exposure is close, but [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Bay Natives > http://www.baynatives.com Paul Furman - 24 Feb 2006 20:37 GMT > "Paul Furman" <paul-@-edgehill.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It does. If all three histograms aren't clipped doesn't that mean the > exposure is correct? Yes but it's not the raw histogram so a little clipping is usually OK. Turning down contrast & saturation should make it closer. Of course sometimes you might want to clip highlights to get more shadow detail.
> Is there any other info you can get from the > histograms?
> I knew there would be a steep learning curve when I bought this camera, > no matter how much I've read already. It still has been a little > overwhelming, trying to get decent prints. I miss my slides and scanner > sometimes. JPS@no.komm - 24 Feb 2006 23:36 GMT >But at least the D200 shows separate color channels in the histogram (I >think). Some cameras do, but even that can still be a bit deceiving, if you're looking for optimal RAW capture. RAW conversion has to change hue, saturation, and brightness based on RAW hue and saturation. The red, green, and blue filters in the camera do not correspond to red, blue, and green in the displays we use. Red is often orange in the RAW data, blue is purple, etc., even after white-balancing it. Real-world saturated reds are boosted in luminance in the output, etc,
One case in which taking a JPEG-based RGB histogram literally over a luminance histogram can result in an even worse exposure decision is with some red flowers; they clip the red channel in the JPEG, while the luminance histogram looks OK. The red channel in the RAW data can still be 1 to 2 stops away from clipping, but an RGB histogram of the JPEG would show the red as clipped, suggesting taking the picture again at a lower exposure, making the entire image under-exposed.
What RAW shooters really need is a RAW RGB histogram, unpolluted by white balance, color profiles, or any other JPEG settings. Either the manufacturers are too ignorant (or too stratified) to understand the value of this, or they simply don't care, as it has very little market influence. All they'd have to do is sample a pseudo-random subsample (so as not to favor any geometric bias) of the raw pixels of each color, to create a histogram without leaving all of the RAW data in memory. There are many things that the manufacturers could do to make using their cameras better, that cost almost nothing to implement, but they just don't seem to care or understand.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Bart van der Wolf - 25 Feb 2006 00:23 GMT SNIP
> What RAW shooters really need is a RAW RGB histogram, > unpolluted by white balance, color profiles, or any other JPEG > settings. Either that, or a per channel clipping indicator.
The indicators could be as simple as flashing dots, and could be triggered by a simple comparison between the bottom and the top part of the highest histogram bin. Given the small LCD histograms there is only a limited number of bins, so dividing the highest one (e.g. in two equal halfs) wouldn't cost too much.
Based on that, more accurate Auto-ISO and clipping calculations could easily be implemented, with an accuracy depending on available processing power.
I'll have to search existing patents, but otherwise I'd claim it as public domain prior art so it can be freely available for all.
Bart
babalooixnay@hotmail.com - 24 Feb 2006 22:40 GMT > I didn't realize that the LCD only displayed a JPEG, huh! It seems like the > LCD, along with the histogram will tell you if the exposure is close, but > you have to get to your work station to see if the shot has the right white > balance, etc. and skin tones aren't too blue or yellow. Check your D200 manual carefully for what shows up in your LCD. I use a D50 and there is very little info in the manual. I had to sort out myself what is showing on the LCD. A few weeks ago I realized how far the JPEG settings will go in camera.
I was shooting moonlit scenes using tables for my exposure as my lightmeter was somewhere else. It was real cold out and I was distracted and went into the tables wrong. Things didn't feel right as I had done similar shots before and the times, in the minutes, seemed off. After the first shot I looked at the LCD and the exposure was roughly correct so didn't pay it any more mind and continued on using the tables incorrectly. When I downloaded everything later I was three stops off on everything and quickly found the error I made in the tables. A quick look at the histogram probably would have showed me that the LCD was showing me a JPEG of the raw file bumped up three stops. It made a viewable picture in the LCD but there was nothing really there in the raw file to work with.
JPS@no.komm - 24 Feb 2006 23:44 GMT >It made a viewable picture in the LCD but there was nothing >really there in the raw file to work with. Well, you should be able to emulate the LCD somehow on the monitor, but the thing is, your brain sees a small LCD, sees that it has no real black; sees that the contrast is very low, and expects very little from it (and the lack of black hides noise). On the monitor, your expectations are higher, and using the Curves that would simulate the LCD would be unacceptable to you.
To do the simulation, you might do something like raise the output blackpoint in the PS "Levels" tool; and increase the gamma value (move the middle triangle on the input line to the left).
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 25 Feb 2006 03:30 GMT > I was shooting moonlit scenes using tables for my exposure as my > lightmeter was somewhere else. It was real cold out and I was [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > stops. It made a viewable picture in the LCD but there was nothing > really there in the raw file to work with. Wow, three stops, that seems too much. My guess is the illusion of viewing the LCD at night with your eyes adjusted for darkness could explain that?
babalooixnay@hotmail.com - 25 Feb 2006 05:28 GMT > Wow, three stops, that seems too much. My guess is the illusion of > viewing the LCD at night with your eyes adjusted for darkness could > explain that? Surprised the hell out of me, too. I've always wondered how the in camera settings work, I read stuff about pre-programmed shots built in to the firmware but I suspect it's a simple working with the histogram. In my case I think it bumped up what exposure was there and spread out what it could find. Back on the monitor it was posterized to beat the band but in the LCD it showed a reasonable picture. You're probably right about part of it being an illusion, a night shot, long exposure and wondering what will show up, eyes atuned to darkness. I've also bracketed +2 and -2 with that camera playing with HDR stuff and had all three show exactly the same brightness in the cameras monitor.
Alan Browne - 25 Feb 2006 18:18 GMT > I was shooting moonlit scenes using tables for my exposure as my > lightmeter was somewhere else. It was real cold out and I was [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > stops. It made a viewable picture in the LCD but there was nothing > really there in the raw file to work with. I suggest that you use the following "meterless" technique and not ever rely on your monitor for low light shooting.
Cheers, Alan
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Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 24 Feb 2006 21:52 GMT >Probably you are shooting in AdobeRGB and Irfanview is only able to >assume sRGB. Irfan is great for quick & dirty browsing though. Irfanview isn't color managed, so it can't use a monitor profile either.
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babalooixnay@hotmail.com - 24 Feb 2006 17:49 GMT > For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors > accurate? Or do I have to view the picture (maybe with a Gretag Macbeth [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Irfanview v3.98 and Photoshop 7.0 look (slightly) different. Maybe this is a > subject for a different newsgroup. I'm assuming the D200 is like earlier Nikons and you are seeing a JPEG preview in your LCD. What you see on the LCD will be the result of your JPEG settings inside the camera. What you see on your monitor (assuming that your camera and monitor are using the same settings, colorspace and your monitor is calibrated should be the same for JPEGs only. Your camera will probably have at least sRGB and Adobe RGB 1998 settings, you'll have to check your monitor for it's settings) Raw files will be different on your monitor as no settings have been applied. I'm fairly new to digital and spent the past few months dealing with color issues. I did end up with a Spyder 2 to calibrate my monitor and have sorted out the colorspace isssues. I use Adobe RGB 1998 from camera through software. The colorspace issue will come up again when sending things to be printed.
There are good tutorials around the internet. Try
http://luminous-landscape.com/
and
http://www.earthboundlight.com/
and
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm
All three of these websites are essentially chronicles of professional photographers who've made the transition from film to digital and have documented that transition with tips and tutorials in well indexed archives.
Good luck!
Steve - 24 Feb 2006 17:57 GMT > > For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors > > accurate? Or do I have to view the picture (maybe with a Gretag Macbeth [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > 1998 from camera through software. The colorspace issue will come up > again when sending things to be printed. That's what I was looking for, thanks!
> There are good tutorials around the internet. Try > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Good luck! I'm off to see the wizard.
John A. Stovall - 24 Feb 2006 23:04 GMT > For example, the D200 has a nice big ,bright monitor. Are the colors >accurate? Or do I have to view the picture (maybe with a Gretag Macbeth [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Irfanview v3.98 and Photoshop 7.0 look (slightly) different. Maybe this is a >subject for a different newsgroup. First don't worry much about the camera display but calibration will help.
But you must calibrate your monitor or you are wasting your time if you want get the best out of your photos.
Also each application must be able to support your calibrated monitor profile.
You need to start learning about color management in your digital work flow. Get Fraser's book on the subject and start there.
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"A combat photographer should be able to make you see the color of blood in black and white"
David Douglas Duncan Speaking on why in Vietnam he worked only in black and white http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/online/ddd/
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