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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2006

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dynamic range

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Paul Furman - 14 Feb 2006 22:13 GMT
Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a
polarizer that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail?
As I understand, whatever the camera is capable of capturing before the
highlights blow is squeezed into the same file format between black &
white so a high DR camera is actually going to be a bit less contrasty.

What are the DR ratings for various DSLRs?

Re: 16bit vs 8 bit for prints
JPS@no.komm wrote:

> The dynamic range is a ratio, not a height.  The maximum dynamic range
> expressable at the pixel level is the ratio of the luminance of the
> highest value to the lowest.  If the values are linear, then the dynamic
> range of 16-bit is 257 (65535/255) times as high as 8-bit; if the
> shadows are 2.2 gamma-adjusted, 16-bit data has a potential dynamic
> range 196,000x as high as 8-bit.  Common standards use linear data for
> deep shadow ranges, I have been told, so the more probably figure is
> 257.  16-bit conversions have a little bit more dynamic range than 8-bit
> conversions for low-noise ISOs (provided they are both TIFF; if the
> 8-bit is JPEG, then the difference is wider).
>
> The real limitation to dynamic range is the RAW data itself (at low
> ISOs) and noise (at higher ISOs).  2.2-gamma 8-bit data can hold a lot
> of DR, and 16-bit astronomical DR.  The limitation is precision in the
> 8-bit data.
Paul Furman - 14 Feb 2006 22:19 GMT
> Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a
> polarizer that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail?
> As I understand, whatever the camera is capable of capturing before the
> highlights blow is squeezed into the same file format between black &
> white so a high DR camera is actually going to be a bit less contrasty.

Or you can just have the raw converter (or jpeg creation) extract
something less contrasty and apply curves to that to put the contrast
where it's desired... but even then, I sometimes have to do multiple raw
conversions to recover blown highlights.
Charles Schuler - 14 Feb 2006 22:31 GMT
>> Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a polarizer
>> that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail? As I
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> where it's desired... but even then, I sometimes have to do multiple raw
> conversions to recover blown highlights.

No filter can increase dynamic range unless one is willing to expand the
range after the fact of a limited/filtered selection. Kind of a cheat, by
the way.  You can initially clip the dynamic range and then later expand it.
So, my answer is basically NO.  This could be an interesting thread!
JPS@no.komm - 15 Feb 2006 03:25 GMT
>No filter can increase dynamic range unless one is willing to expand the
>range after the fact of a limited/filtered selection. Kind of a cheat, by
>the way.  You can initially clip the dynamic range and then later expand it.
>So, my answer is basically NO.  This could be an interesting thread!

Are you talking about something like the Tiffen "ultra contrast"
filters?

I played with that idea a while back, and my conclusion was that all it
basically did was raise the blackpoint of the RAW data, while decreasing
the effective subject exposure, so in effect, it basically increased
exposure latitude at the expense of exposure strength, and did not
increase DR at all (it actually reduced it).  It is probably more useful
with film, or in lifting the shadows in camera JPEGs, than material for
RAW conversion.
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Jeremy Nixon - 15 Feb 2006 04:52 GMT
> Are you talking about something like the Tiffen "ultra contrast"
> filters?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> with film, or in lifting the shadows in camera JPEGs, than material for
> RAW conversion.

It seems to be the same idea as "flashing" paper (or film) in the darkroom
to raise the black level out of the bottom of the "toe" of the response
curve.  That would seem to be inapplicable to RAW capture.

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Bart van der Wolf - 14 Feb 2006 23:32 GMT
> Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range?

Not a filter, it would add its own 1-2% reduction (assuming quality
coating on all lens groups). A well configured lens hood *will*
increase Dynamic range, especially if the lens isn't spotless clean.

Bart
Paul Furman - 15 Feb 2006 03:57 GMT
>> Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range?
>
> Not a filter, it would add its own 1-2% reduction (assuming quality
> coating on all lens groups). A well configured lens hood *will* increase
> Dynamic range, especially if the lens isn't spotless clean.

Ben's contrast reducing filter is something I hadn't heard of, a little
googling suggests that tends to give a milky look similar to well
controlled flare. That suggests that a lens hood increases contrast
which is more likely to blow highlights & leave shadows buried.

filters:
http://www.tiffen.com/userimages/Contrast_FactSheet_Lo.pdf
discussion:
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=000F7D&tag=
Ben Brugman - 14 Feb 2006 23:38 GMT
> Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a polarizer
> that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail? As I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> What are the DR ratings for various DSLRs?

There are filters which in some circumstances make a picture less contrasty.
That would mean that in those circumstances you actually can record a
scene with more dynamic range. Later on you can use part of the dynamic
range
to get the picture you actualy want, or you can stretch the dynamic range to
obtain a dynamic range which represents the reality a bit more.
I do not now how to make such dynamic range visible though. (Not on screen,
not on paper).
And I don't think that filters which reduce the contrast will improve the
picture.

ben brugman
Mikey - 16 Feb 2006 23:00 GMT
Ikke ook verrekijker hebben.....goegoegaga

gr.
Mikey.

Ben Brugman schreef:

> > Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a polarizer
> > that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail? As I
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> ben brugman
Bart van der Wolf - 14 Feb 2006 23:42 GMT
SNIP
> What are the DR ratings for various DSLRs?

They can/could extend to the full 12-bit (4095:1) range that the
DSLR's ADC provides, give or take half a bit quantization error.
Boosting that to the 32767:1 or 65535:1 working space range will help
to allow for post-processing rounding errors, before reducing that to
the 126:1 printing range.

Bart
JPS@no.komm - 15 Feb 2006 03:17 GMT
>Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a
>polarizer that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail?

You mean a non-linear luminance response?  I've never heard of anything.
The filter would have to be able to distinguish light passing through it
at different angles; at any point on the surface, light can be coming
from different source points with different destinations, so even if
there was a way to make photon sweaken sensitivity to further photons,
it would have to distinguish between different directions, and it would
not work in front of the lens.

Maybe on the sensor itself?

Usually, the compromise with such things is increased noise, defeating
the purpose.  That's probably why the cameras aren't creating
gamma-adjusted RAW files on the fly; the circuitry might be very noisy
to do so (and harder to calibrate).

>As I understand, whatever the camera is capable of capturing before the
>highlights blow is squeezed into the same file format between black &
>white so a high DR camera is actually going to be a bit less contrasty.
>
>What are the DR ratings for various DSLRs?

That depends on the standard of DR.  I can read large black and white
text on a box with my 20D under-exposed by 11 stops at ISO 1600 (pushed
to ISO 3,200,000, and binned), so by some standard, highlights 15 stops
below the sensor maximum are usable against blackness ("banding" really
competes with the signal at this level).  As far as individual pixels
are concerned, as measuring instruments, DR is limited by the bit-depth,
if not further by noise, which seems to be what Roger Clark is testing
with his DR experiments.  Some people say they are 5 to 6 stops, but
that would be a very high standard; they might be talking about exposure
latitude of a 5 to 6 stop DR image and mistakenly calling it the DR of
the camera.

Whatever the standard, though, I would think that the cameras will rank
pretty much in the same order, but issues like banding vs random noise
could cause relative shifts in ranking.
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Paul Furman - 15 Feb 2006 05:17 GMT
>>Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a
>>polarizer that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail?
>
> You mean a non-linear luminance response?

I guess so. Like the HDR (High Dynamic Range) CS2 utility that merges
several exposures.

> I've never heard of anything.
> The filter would have to be able to distinguish light passing through it
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Maybe on the sensor itself?

Yeah maybe, it would just shut down the individual sensel when it got
close to filling up. No way to really predict which will blow until it's
done so maybe a test shot that makes a custom mask for a neutral density
filter for that shot. I forget how to create a mask with an alpha
channel in PS which has a similar effect, not sure why it's so
complicated but it is. Convert the raw file twice, once really dark to
preserve highlights, once normal and use the highlight one to mask itself???

> Usually, the compromise with such things is increased noise, defeating
> the purpose.  
<snip>
> As far as individual pixels
> are concerned, as measuring instruments, DR is limited by the bit-depth,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> latitude of a 5 to 6 stop DR image and mistakenly calling it the DR of
> the camera.

So what that suggests is that low noise in the shadows would let you
expose to preserve highlights and boost the (not too badly degraded)
shadow detail so that low noise equals high dynamic range. That makes sense.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 15 Feb 2006 15:25 GMT
>>> Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a
>>> polarizer that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>
>> Maybe on the sensor itself?

I'm surprised no one has mentioned split density filters.
They are used when a large bright portion of an image
needs darkening, like bright sky.

> Yeah maybe, it would just shut down the individual sensel when it got
> close to filling up. No way to really predict which will blow until it's
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> preserve highlights, once normal and use the highlight one to mask
> itself???

With a good raw converter, this shouldn't be necessary, but
unfortunately, it is with many.  Another thing: to recover highlights,
convert in linear space (some converters will not do this, like photoshop).
If you do get one that does, you can gain about 1/3 stop.

For shadow detail, see:
 Digital Camera Raw Converter Shadow Detail and Image Editor Limitations:
 Factors in Getting Shadow Detail in Images
 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/raw.converter.shadow.detail

>> Usually, the compromise with such things is increased noise, defeating
>> the purpose.  
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> shadow detail so that low noise equals high dynamic range. That makes
> sense.

Yes.  The lower noise camera, the better the result.
Two references:

 Dynamic Range and Transfer Functions of Digital Images
 and Comparison to Film
 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2

See figure 8b for comparisons in stops.

This page:
 The Signal-to-Noise of Digital Camera images
 and Comparison to Film
 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.signal.to.noise

shows noise and full well data, and the corresponding dynamic
range (defined as maximum signal/read noise).  The dynamic
range of better DSLRs is limited by the 12-bit A/D converters.
See Table 3.

Roger
JPS@no.komm - 16 Feb 2006 00:50 GMT
>Yeah maybe, it would just shut down the individual sensel when it got
>close to filling up. No way to really predict which will blow until it's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>complicated but it is. Convert the raw file twice, once really dark to
>preserve highlights, once normal and use the highlight one to mask itself???

People do that, but I don't bother with it.  It may be an easy way to
handle things, with a PS "Action", but I find it kind of ridiculous that
anyone would even have to do such a thing.  You should be able to do
this in the RAW converter, if it had good ways of tone mapping, and the
ability to control contrast at the tonal level (something like an
expanded "shadow/highlight" tool right in the converter.

The current crop of RAW converters all leave a lot to be desired; I wish
I could hybridize them and use the best of each, but they'd still be
missing features I'd like.
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John McWilliams - 17 Feb 2006 02:38 GMT
>>Yeah maybe, it would just shut down the individual sensel when it got
>>close to filling up. No way to really predict which will blow until it's
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> ability to control contrast at the tonal level (something like an
> expanded "shadow/highlight" tool right in the converter.

My understanding is that the RAW converter in CS II does just that. Or
if not, it can be done in 16 bit with a built in in Photoshop.

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JPS@no.komm - 17 Feb 2006 03:58 GMT
>My understanding is that the RAW converter in CS II does just that. Or
>if not, it can be done in 16 bit with a built in in Photoshop.

I don't think so; ACR looks like it just uses a transfer function.  THe
shadow/highlight tool boosts contrast in shadows and highlights, which
is not a straight transfer function.  Simply cramming highlights into an
image reduces the contrast in the highlights.
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Jeremy Nixon - 17 Feb 2006 04:24 GMT
> My understanding is that the RAW converter in CS II does just that. Or
> if not, it can be done in 16 bit with a built in in Photoshop.

ACR doesn't do what he's really talking about; it does something that makes
you wish it did what he's talking about, but it's not quite there.

That said, I find ACR curves sufficient for almost all of my images.  I
haven't seen the slightest need to do the "two conversions, one for
highlight and one for shadow" trick since they introduced the curves.
When the ACR curves aren't enough, the picture generally gets taken into
LAB mode in Photoshop.  LAB curves would be a nice ACR feature.

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Paul Furman - 17 Feb 2006 05:53 GMT
>>My understanding is that the RAW converter in CS II does just that. Or
>>if not, it can be done in 16 bit with a built in in Photoshop.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> When the ACR curves aren't enough, the picture generally gets taken into
> LAB mode in Photoshop.  LAB curves would be a nice ACR feature.

Damn, I only have CS, not CS2. I need to do two conversions to get
everything. Huge difference!

How does LAB help?
Jeremy Nixon - 17 Feb 2006 21:16 GMT
> Damn, I only have CS, not CS2. I need to do two conversions to get
> everything. Huge difference!

Camera Raw 3 is itself enough reason to upgrade to CS2.  It essentially makes
Photoshop a plugin for Camera Raw.

> How does LAB help?

Whole different religion.  LAB separates luminance from color, and makes some
editing moves easier (and makes some possible).

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go go dancer - 15 Feb 2006 04:11 GMT
I don't know about a filter but I know when using camera raw in
photoshop to open a raw image, you can alter the contrast which results
in more detail in shadows and (provided it is there in the first place)
highlights. It makes for a very flat looking picture but one which can
have it's attenuation increased with other tools to liven up the image.

My experience has been that under exposing when bright objects are
present by up to 2 stops allows you to use Photoshop tools the lighten
the dark areas while keeping the highlights under control. This also
results in flat looking pictures.

I think that until the sensors can capture a wider range of detail -
maybe closer to human vision - no digital camera and no filter will
produce a pleasant looking picture with the full range of such scenes
as would normally have blown highlights and blacked shadows.

Maddy
mark.thomas.7@gmail.com - 15 Feb 2006 10:17 GMT
Just as an aside, I often hear how cameras (film or digital) don't
capture anywhere near the dynamic range of the eye.  But I have an
objection to that simplistic criticism..  The eye cheats!!!  The eye
builds up it's image from scanning about, and it adjusts its pupil
(aperture) as required.  The final image you are 'seeing' is more of a
composite than a single snapshot!  This happens very quickly, but it is
not unlike the way a video camera adjusts it's aperture as it pans
acroos light and dark scenes.

Once the eye has gathered that information, it does a very creditable
job of handing over the best bits to the brain to collate it into a
usable image.  It's not unlike Photoshop's HDR or whatever it's called.
And would be very hard to measure...

If you don't believe me, allow me to repeat a small party trick similar
to one I use in my digital imaging classes....
Look intently at a word in the middle of a paragraph.. (in a paragraph
you *haven't* read!)  Now, while you hold your eyesight aiming steadily
and  *directly* at that word (no cheating!!), try to 'read' the
sentences that are 4 or 5 lines above or below it.  You will notice two
things:

1. You can't do it!  If you can, you are very unusual!

2. Somehow, even though that nearby text is illegible, it somehow seems
'sharp'.

Think about this - how can it seem sharp, and yet you can't read it?
The answer is simple, your brain *knows* that the stuff is sharp, and
so it 'is'.  But in reality, anything outside that centre few degrees
of sharp vision is in fact quite blurred.  So what you are seeing is
not actually the truth.  The 'sharpness' is built up from the rapid
scanning it has done, or in some cases it is simply because you know
from experience that the unresolved area is sharp.

I am certain the brain does something similar with contrast, but how
would you measure it?  And of what significance is it, anyway?  I
dunno, but it's interesting to think about..  (O:

Anyway, we already have light sensitive plastics that darken on
exposure to sunlight...ok, maybe not applicable.. but why not an
electronically driven polariser/lcd that sat in front of the sensor and
had adjustable darkness per pixel?  (O:  Who knows what the future will
bring, maybe sensor technology will improve along the lines suggested
before, ie the sensor simply shuts itself down as much as it needs to,
and more importantly, records the amount of 'compensation' so that the
light level is still recorded accurately..
Paul Furman - 15 Feb 2006 15:07 GMT
> Just as an aside, I often hear how cameras (film or digital) don't
> capture anywhere near the dynamic range of the eye.  But I have an
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> not unlike the way a video camera adjusts it's aperture as it pans
> acroos light and dark scenes.

Maybe this is why compositing or averaging exposures doesn't work well
in real world conditions: it looks flat and unreal. The only way I've
found is to manually mask out the way the eye would manually mask bright
& dark regions, taking in each one at a time. That way there are still a
few stong highlights in the shadow areas and normal contrast and the
bright regions (sky) can be toned down to readable values while still
keeping dark branches for instance against the sky.

> Once the eye has gathered that information, it does a very creditable
> job of handing over the best bits to the brain to collate it into a
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> and more importantly, records the amount of 'compensation' so that the
> light level is still recorded accurately..
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 15 Feb 2006 11:22 GMT
> Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range?

No.

The camera sensor can record each pixel from blackpoint to max.

You cannot lower the blackpoint, not with a filter, you cannot
get a higher value than a filled electron well provides, not with
a filter.

The response of each pixel is (nearly) linear.  Again a filter
cannot change that, unless it was *directly* on the sensor itself
and acted somewhat like a self-toning sunglass.

You could, however, build a sensor that had such a filter, or
used sensitive and less sensitive wells, or had a sensor well
coupled with a timestamp when full (and use the 'when was it full'
timestamp to estimate how mny times it would have been filled ---
although that will play hell when combining flash with longer
exposures and not act like film at all) or have a sensor dump
itself when full (and continuing to collect data) with a counter
telling you how often that happened, or try if huge electron
wells will give you more dynamic range (though noise can be a
problem there!) ...

Or you simply use multiple exposures with different exposure data
and combine that data with DRI.  Unfortunately, that is not an
indicated technique with moving objects.

Or you simply use the usual methods (reflectors, fill flash,
etc.) to ensure the objects to be photographed are all within the
dynamic range of your camera.  The added bonus there is that this
technique also works with slide and print film.


-Wolfgang
Beach Bum - 17 Feb 2006 22:07 GMT
> Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a
> polarizer that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail?
> As I understand, whatever the camera is capable of capturing before the
> highlights blow is squeezed into the same file format between black &
> white so a high DR camera is actually going to be a bit less contrasty.

With film there is a way to use a double exposure to do this.  First shoot a
gray card (not 18% I think, but I don't know the details and don't have time
to look it up), then second exposure you expose for the highlights.  This
pre-exposure is supposed to affect the film somehow that gives the shaddows
some help.  I first read about this in one of Ansel Adams' books.  I have no
idea if there is some trick that could simulate this, although I read some
blending techniques that work pretty well at Luminous Landscapes.

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w.beckley@gmail.com - 20 Feb 2006 05:44 GMT
A few things:

If dynamic range is your primary concern in photography, even more than
resolution, then you should look into Fuji's Nikon-mount S3 Pro. Each
pixel location is actually a large pixel and a small pixel, capturing
shadows and highlights. The camera has a relatively low resoluion at
around 6 megapixels, but it apparently has tremendous dynamic range.

Barring that, you could get Adobe Camera Raw, which has tremendous
highlight recovery capabilities. Check out "Camera Raw with Adobe
Photoshop CS2" by Bruce Fraser for some wonderful insights. You'll
start to convert RAW files in a quarter of the time and get 500% better
results. In any case, that's how I estimate my improvement after
reading that book.

Long story short, when exposing for RAW, you always want to do the
following two things:
1.) Expose low enough that nothing blows out that shouldn't be blowing
out (obviously, if you've got a light source in the shot, you might not
mind that it blows out; it would on even the best films if exposed
properly for the whole scene.

2.) Expose as high as you can with regards to (1.). Basically, you
don't want any blowout, but you want to be knocking on the door of
absolute white.

The reason for this is better explained in the book (and in the "Expose
Right" article on Luminous Landscape), but basically, a chip records
light in a linear fashion and this means that your hottest stop
contains half of your picture information, and your second hottest stop
contains one quarter (which makes perfect sense if you understand our
logarithmic perception of light). Adobe Camera Raw *basically* allows
you to distribute these bits more evenly throughout the image and
results in better conversions. Doing this, you'll find that most
cameras have terrific dynamic range.

As for specific DR ratings for cameras, Imaging Resource has started to
collect data on this. A recent example of their stats can be found on
the review page for the Canon EOS 1Ds MkII:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/EOS1DS2/1DS2IMATEST.HTM

The methodology leaves plenty to be desired, so take it with some salt,
but they conclude that, independent of RAW conversion, the following
make the top 5 DSLRs in terms of DR:

1. Fuji S3 Pro : 7.94 stops at "high" quality
2. Nikon D50 : 7.36 stops at "high" quality
3. Canon 20D : 7.29 stops at "high" quality
4. Canon Rebel XT : 7.11 stops at "high" quality
5. Olympus E-VOLT : 7.07 stops at "high" quality

They only test RAW conversion on two cameras: the S3 and the 1Ds2, and
these both see an increase of a little over a stop because of it. So
you can conclude that alot of DSLRs, even cheap ones, can get 8 stops
with RAW conversion. That's nothing to shake a stick at.

Anyone know what the typical range of luminance is in natural settings
around the world? If we trust the "Sunny 16" rule, then you have
ambient light of around 6826 footcandles in bright sunlight. Which
suggests to me that the 14-stop difference between 1 footcandle and
8192 footcandles would get you nearly everything you want, if exposed
properly. Surely, then, a 16-stop range from 1 footcandle to 32,768
footcandles would be enough, right? And even then, that's if you wanted
full seperation between 1 and 2 footcandles. How long until we have
sensors that can give us that kind of range? At that point, do you even
rationalize exposure in the same way?

Food for thought,

Will
Andrew Haley - 20 Feb 2006 12:13 GMT
> They only test RAW conversion on two cameras: the S3 and the 1Ds2, and
> these both see an increase of a little over a stop because of it. So
> you can conclude that alot of DSLRs, even cheap ones, can get 8 stops
> with RAW conversion. That's nothing to shake a stick at.

> Anyone know what the typical range of luminance is in natural settings
> around the world? If we trust the "Sunny 16" rule, then you have
> ambient light of around 6826 footcandles in bright sunlight. Which
> suggests to me that the 14-stop difference between 1 footcandle and
> 8192 footcandles would get you nearly everything you want, if exposed
> properly.

Think, for a moment, about lens flare.  A really good fixed focal
length lens has 0.6% flare, according to
http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/flare.html.  So, if there is a very bright
area somewhere in the image, any very dark areas will be veiled in
flare -- even with a very good lens.

If the lens can't deliver an image with huge dynamic range, the sensor
won't record it.

Andrew.
JPS@no.komm - 20 Feb 2006 16:13 GMT
>Think, for a moment, about lens flare.  A really good fixed focal
>length lens has 0.6% flare, according to
>http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/flare.html.  So, if there is a very bright
>area somewhere in the image, any very dark areas will be veiled in
>flare -- even with a very good lens.

>If the lens can't deliver an image with huge dynamic range, the sensor
>won't record it.

It doesn't work like that.  Flare does not veil anything; it adds to the
other signal.

On my Canon 20D, when there is no exposure, the RAW data is 128,128,128.
That is called the blackpoint.  If lens flare adds 100,200,150 (much,
much more than your 0.6%, BTW; this would be about 10%), then the
effective blackpoint (assuming you want to remove the flare) becomes
228,328,278.  Any small shadow signal is *added* to this; not "veiled"
by it.  You don't lose any shadows because of this; you lose a small
amount of highlights, as it takes less "real, desired" image brightness
to clip the RAW data, but you'd be losing something like 200 out of 3968
(already less than 4096 because of the original 128 blackpoint) possible
levels in the green channel, for 3768 usable RAW levels.

log(3768/3968) / log(2) = -0.0746, or a loss of 0.07 stops of dynamic
range.  This is not an understatement; 200 is really much more than what
you'd expect with a moderately flare-prone lens in normal circumstances.
Even if you are shooting into a cave with the sun shining on the lens,
and the flare is most of the signal. it will be about 500 in the green
channel with auto-exposure (that is where middle grey generally lies),
and your shadows will still be intact.  For such a shot, with such low
contrast, you should use +2 EC (or more, if you know where the RAW
clipping point is), so your signal is as trong as possible; keeping the
flare exposed lower does not help; as the "desired signal" is then also
lower.  A high-pass filter at a very low frequency would eliminate and
difference in flare from center to edge.

Now, I'm not saying that the RAW converters we have do all of this well,
right now, but that is what is happening in the RAW data, and how it can
be overcome.
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  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

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Paul Furman - 20 Feb 2006 18:12 GMT
>>Think, for a moment, about lens flare.  A really good fixed focal
>>length lens has 0.6% flare, according to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> It doesn't work like that.  Flare does not veil anything; it adds to the
> other signal.

If anything, flare increases dynamic range by decreasing contrast like
the filters discussed above. It seems unavoidable that it muddies up the
image but it does sort of increase dynamic range.

> On my Canon 20D, when there is no exposure, the RAW data is 128,128,128.
> That is called the blackpoint.  If lens flare adds 100,200,150 (much,
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> right now, but that is what is happening in the RAW data, and how it can
> be overcome.

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JPS@no.komm - 21 Feb 2006 02:00 GMT


>>>Think, for a moment, about lens flare.  A really good fixed focal
>>>length lens has 0.6% flare, according to
>>>http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/flare.html.  So, if there is a very bright
>>>area somewhere in the image, any very dark areas will be veiled in
>>>flare -- even with a very good lens.

>>>If the lens can't deliver an image with huge dynamic range, the sensor
>>>won't record it.

>> It doesn't work like that.  Flare does not veil anything; it adds to the
>> other signal.

>If anything, flare increases dynamic range by decreasing contrast like
>the filters discussed above. It seems unavoidable that it muddies up the
>image but it does sort of increase dynamic range.

It doesn't decrease contrast by using a system where 1 stop is a ratio
of 1.7 instead of 2; it is additive, and decreases contrast only by
losing the black end.  It seems to have value with film, and it may even
have some value with JPEG, but the RAW data gains no dynamic range by
having a blanket of extra light across the frame; It steals a little bit
of the dynamic range, as I explained in the part of my post that you did
not comment on:

On my Canon 20D, when there is no exposure, the RAW data is 128,128,128.
That is called the blackpoint.  If lens flare adds 100,200,150 (much,
much more than your 0.6%, BTW; this would be about 10%), then the
effective blackpoint (assuming you want to remove the flare) becomes
228,328,278.  Any small shadow signal is *added* to this; not "veiled"
by it.  You don't lose any shadows because of this; you lose a small
amount of highlights, as it takes less "real, desired" image brightness
to clip the RAW data, but you'd be losing something like 200 out of 3968
(already less than 4096 because of the original 128 blackpoint) possible
levels in the green channel, for 3768 usable RAW levels.

log(3768/3968) / log(2) = -0.0746, or a loss of 0.07 stops of dynamic
range.  This is not an understatement; 200 is really much more than what
you'd expect with a moderately flare-prone lens in normal circumstances.
Even if you are shooting into a cave with the sun shining on the lens,
and the flare is most of the signal. it will be about 500 in the green
channel with auto-exposure (that is where middle grey generally lies),
and your shadows will still be intact.  For such a shot, with such low
contrast, you should use +2 EC (or more, if you know where the RAW
clipping point is), so your signal is as trong as possible; keeping the
flare exposed lower does not help; as the "desired signal" is then also
lower.  A high-pass filter at a very low frequency would eliminate and
difference in flare from center to edge.
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  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

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Paul Furman - 21 Feb 2006 02:31 GMT
>>>>Think, for a moment, about lens flare.  A really good fixed focal
>>>>length lens has 0.6% flare, according to
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> of the dynamic range, as I explained in the part of my post that you did
> not comment on:

Heh, I didn't comment because I didn't understand <g>. But I can get the
idea that flare doesn't help raw data and there are plenty of tools to
bring up the shadows in PS & ACR so I guess that's the way to go, not a
flare inducing filter.

> On my Canon 20D, when there is no exposure, the RAW data is 128,128,128.
> That is called the blackpoint.  If lens flare adds 100,200,150 (much,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> lower.  A high-pass filter at a very low frequency would eliminate and
> difference in flare from center to edge.

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Andrew Haley - 21 Feb 2006 20:22 GMT
>>Think, for a moment, about lens flare.  A really good fixed focal
>>length lens has 0.6% flare, according to
>>http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/flare.html.  So, if there is a very bright
>>area somewhere in the image, any very dark areas will be veiled in
>>flare -- even with a very good lens.

>>If the lens can't deliver an image with huge dynamic range, the sensor
>>won't record it.

> It doesn't work like that.  Flare does not veil anything; it adds to the
> other signal.

> On my Canon 20D, when there is no exposure, the RAW data is 128,128,128.
> That is called the blackpoint.  If lens flare adds 100,200,150 (much,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> (already less than 4096 because of the original 128 blackpoint) possible
> levels in the green channel, for 3768 usable RAW levels.

You're assuming that flare is uniform across the image.  It's not, so
you can't simply pick a point and call that black.  If the blackpoint
is too high you'll balck out some shadows, and if it's too low you
lose DR.  Flare is a real loss of contrast and imposes a limit on the
dynamic range of any camera.

> log(3768/3968) / log(2) = -0.0746, or a loss of 0.07 stops of dynamic
> range.  This is not an understatement; 200 is really much more than what
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> contrast, you should use +2 EC (or more, if you know where the RAW
> clipping point is),

Not on my camera!  I'm quite sure there aren't 2 stops to spare.

> so your signal is as trong as possible; keeping the
> flare exposed lower does not help; as the "desired signal" is then also
> lower.  A high-pass filter at a very low frequency would eliminate and
> difference in flare from center to edge.

> Now, I'm not saying that the RAW converters we have do all of this well,
> right now, but that is what is happening in the RAW data, and how it can
> be overcome.

I'm not convinced that it can altogether be overcome.  If flare was an
absolutely uniform addition to every sample, things might be
different.  But that's not possible.

Andrew.
Paul Furman - 21 Feb 2006 21:06 GMT
>>>Think, for a moment, about lens flare.  A really good fixed focal
>>>length lens has 0.6% flare, according to
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> lose DR.  Flare is a real loss of contrast and imposes a limit on the
> dynamic range of any camera.

But isn't lreduced contrast needed for capturing high contrast scenes?
Compress that dynamic range into what the sensor can hold. When I
increase contrast in raw conversion, the highlights blow and the shadows
get blocked. For a high contrast scene, I reduce contrast as much as
possible.

>>log(3768/3968) / log(2) = -0.0746, or a loss of 0.07 stops of dynamic
>>range.  This is not an understatement; 200 is really much more than what
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Andrew.

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JPS@no.komm - 22 Feb 2006 02:00 GMT
>But isn't lreduced contrast needed for capturing high contrast scenes?

If there was a way to make a stop equal less than 2x in the RAW data,
without raising the effective blackpoint, then that would achieve what
you want, but flare or Tiffen Ultra Contrast filters just rob some of
the light and blanket it across the frame.  The result is reduced
real_exposure (lower real_signal to noise ratio), which in effect, is
the same thing as under-exposing in the first place.

It is not helpful in a linear response like RAW data.
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  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

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Andrew Haley - 22 Feb 2006 12:17 GMT
>> You're assuming that flare is uniform across the image.  It's not, so
>> you can't simply pick a point and call that black.  If the blackpoint
>> is too high you'll balck out some shadows, and if it's too low you
>> lose DR.  Flare is a real loss of contrast and imposes a limit on the
>> dynamic range of any camera.

> But isn't lreduced contrast needed for capturing high contrast scenes?
> Compress that dynamic range into what the sensor can hold.
> When I increase contrast in raw conversion, the highlights blow and
> the shadows get blocked. For a high contrast scene, I reduce
> contrast as much as possible.

There's a fundamental difference between boosting the brightness of
real detail in shadows and adding extraneous light.  In mathematical
terms, when you boost levels in shadows you're multiplying each
recorded pixel by a constant, but flare *adds* to each pixel.

When you make the exposure, you need to maximize the contrast at the
sensor -- you can reduce contrast later, if you wish, but flare is a
loss of quality becasue it veils shadow details.  

Andrew.
w.beckley@gmail.com - 21 Feb 2006 05:16 GMT
Even if this is the case, it is irrelevant. Driving to work this
morning, I had the sun in my eyes, and my eyes flared and my vision was
obscured. A film camera, likewise, does the same thing. Optical systems
flare... that's part of the deal. You have to deal with flare on your
own if you want to protect your images.

Will
JPS@no.komm - 20 Feb 2006 14:36 GMT
>If dynamic range is your primary concern in photography, even more than
>resolution, then you should look into Fuji's Nikon-mount S3 Pro. Each
>pixel location is actually a large pixel and a small pixel, capturing
>shadows and highlights. The camera has a relatively low resoluion at
>around 6 megapixels, but it apparently has tremendous dynamic range.

Yes, but mainly into the bright end.  That's great for shooting in
daylight with dark shadows (which aren't really very dark in an absolute
sense), or scenes that contain lights in them, but this does nothing for
sensitivity, which is part of what is desirable about "dynamic range".
It doesn't help you hand-hold a shot in very low light, which is
something that *would* be the by-product of having tremendous dynamic
range in a single pixel.  I like to think of those extra pixels as
"highlight helpers".

I'm curious now about how the data is used in RAW converters.  Are the
two sets of data merged into 16-bit linear data, or are they kept
separate in the conversion process so the effect can be masked out where
it isn't needed?  I'd like to find some RAW samples and see what the DNG
converter does with them (uncompressed DNG holds literal RAW bitmaps at
the end, which can be loaded into PS as ".raw", but get posterized by
the 15-bit + 1 format).
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  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

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Paul Furman - 20 Feb 2006 18:26 GMT
>>If dynamic range is your primary concern in photography, even more than
>>resolution, then you should look into Fuji's Nikon-mount S3 Pro. Each
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Yes, but mainly into the bright end.

That's still useful. Probably that's when I really want more dynamic
range. It looks like the Fuji is about the same $1700 price as a D200.
That's how I got into this discussion, thinking about what a D200 is
going to give me that I don't have in a D70. I'd be curious to test a
Fuji. I think sheer pixel count also improves dynamic range though & the
D200 has 11MP which are pretty clean noise-wise. I wouldn't really want
that huge body the Fuji has either & the D200 is just a tad bigger than
a D70. If I was a pro with the budget, the Fuji would be a useful second
body for particular uses.

> That's great for shooting in
> daylight with dark shadows (which aren't really very dark in an absolute
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> the end, which can be loaded into PS as ".raw", but get posterized by
> the 15-bit + 1 format).

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w.beckley@gmail.com - 21 Feb 2006 05:13 GMT
It's definitely useful in the highlights. Blown highlights (the absense
of a shoulder, really) are the biggest giveaway that an image is
digital. And even if that weren't the case, added DR in the highlights
simply means that you can underexpose more and move some of that gain
to the shadows, provided your whole system (aperture and shutter)
allows for it.

I can't say as I agree with John about dynamic range being inextricably
linked to sensitivity. For simplicity's sake, lets say a given camera
(or film) has the ability to capture 10 full stops of DR. You'd need a
scene whose brightest point is 1024 footcandles to capture all shadow
detail down to a single footcandle. Given a 50mm/1.4 prime, wide open,
and a perfectly-fair handholding shutter speed of 1/60, you'd need a
sensitivity of around 100 EI/ASA/ISO. That would put 32 footcandles at
exposure, 1 footcandle 5 stops under at the bottom, and 1024
footcandles 5 stops over at the top. The same scene requires a
sensitivity of 800 EI/ASA/ISO if you can only open up to a 4.0. A 5.6
requires 1600. I don't think we're quite working with 10 stops yet, so
the cutoff point is closer to 256 footcandles (8 stops).

Still, the fact remains: dynamic range is simply a range of acceptable
exposure for the light hitting the chip after being organized by both
the lens aperture and a shutter, with those settings selected with
regard to the sensitivity of the chip. A chip can't tell the difference
between a scene that ranges from 1-256 footcandles and another that
ranges from 16-4096 footcandles, as long as the shutter speed and
aperture are set in such a way as to properly expose both of them.

Will
JPS@no.komm - 20 Feb 2006 15:08 GMT
>Barring that, you could get Adobe Camera Raw, which has tremendous
>highlight recovery capabilities. Check out "Camera Raw with Adobe
>Photoshop CS2" by Bruce Fraser for some wonderful insights. You'll
>start to convert RAW files in a quarter of the time and get 500% better
>results. In any case, that's how I estimate my improvement after
>reading that book.

At least for some cameras, ACR doesn't render colors well when
"recovering highlights" (they were never really lost, if you shot RAW).
Look at this grey scale, over-exposed by two stops and rendered with -4
EC in ACR:

http://www.pbase.com/jps_photo/image/55953848

There really should be nothing higher than middle grey in this render,
as there is only 4.5 stops above middle grey in the least sensitive
(red)  channel, so -4 should bring the top of the scale to 1/2 stop
above middle grey.  ACR "nails" the RAW highlights to 255 in the output,
even when you reduce the exposure drastically.  This distorts the
highlights, and should be an option; not hard-wired into the code.  It
would be much better if there was an "exposure" control that was purely
linear, that acted on the data before variable gamma curves are applied,
and they should be optional.  Also, look at the green color in the 5th
grey rectangle from the left.  The program does a good job of rendering
the brightest rectangles grey, but it gets confused somewhere in the
transition point.  The rectangle rendered green is the darkest one in
which the RAW data starts to clip; only the green channel is clipping
there.  In the 4th rectangle, both the blue and green are clipped.  The
red channel provides the distinction between rectangles 2, 3, and 4. The
5th rectangle really should have been treated as greyscale, not color.

I have an old version of Capture One around (1.2), and it renders the
way you'd expect; it maintains grey highlights from one or two channels,
but leaves no color cast, and the RAW clipping point gets pulled down
below 255 in the output when you render with maximum negative exposure
compensation.

IMO, ACR is not the best tool for recovering highlights, at least with
some cameras.
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w.beckley@gmail.com - 21 Feb 2006 04:36 GMT
As I understand it (and that may not be very well at all), one of the
differences between highlight recovery in ACR and in other software is
that ACR will allow a single channel to blow out and also allow you to
recover the other two. Other software, I know, views a single blown
channel as a blowout in all channels at that pixel location. Such a
distinction, then, could explain the artifact you observe if the grey
chart was lit with light of a different color than the camera's actual
color balance (no idea what that might be, but it must have one). In
such a case, a grey chart is a test that disadvantages ACR and
advantages others, just as a test with many non-neutral hues plays to
ACR's strengths and other software's weaknesses.

If my understanding is correct (and I trust that you'll be able to
acurately tell me if it is not), then it is really a question of
taste... should a blown channel render itself illegible because the
color information cannot be made fully accurate, or should attempts be
made to make it as accurate as possible? I certainly think that I
prefer the ACR way for my subject matter. If I need to correct neutral
subjects that pick up an unwanted color cast, I can always desaturate,
even selectively (your grey chart desaturated beautifully on my system,
and it looks like you'd be hard pressed to fault ACR's luminance
rendering). In my real-world tests, I like the color rendering of ACR
more than I like Aperture or CaptureOne LE. But to each his own.

Will
JPS@no.komm - 21 Feb 2006 15:34 GMT
>As I understand it (and that may not be very well at all), one of the
>differences between highlight recovery in ACR and in other software is
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>advantages others, just as a test with many non-neutral hues plays to
>ACR's strengths and other software's weaknesses.

Other converters render greyscale highlights in areas with one or two
clipped channels just fine;  This same file looks just like you'd expect
in Capture One v1.2; greyscale, in normal-looking steps up to "A"; which
is the same as rectangle "1", because both have all three channels
clipped.  RSE can render it similar, grey-wise, but has a slight cast to
the white value, even if I dropper-clicked the white balance by an
unclupped rectangle (which are sightly reddish on the chart), or the
grey background for the text, which is actually very close to being
grey.

The 10D's natural color balance, like most DSLRs, has about 1 stop less
sensitivity to red as to green.  Red is the least sensitive channel in
most RGB Bayer digitals; red is almost always 0.9 to 1.2 stops less
sensitive than green.  Blue is usually 0.1 to 0.5 stops less sensitive
than green (although in at least one P&S that outputs RAW, blue is 1.5
stops weaker).  In the case of the 10D, which my example is from, red is
1.16 stops less sensitive, and blue 0.32 stops.

from dcraw.c:
(red)  pre_mul[0] = 2.242;
(blue) pre_mul[2] = 1.245;

those are the values that the red and blue RAW data are multiplied by
(after blackpoint subtraction) to achieve daylight WB (grey=grey in
white light).

so:
log(2.242) / log(2) = 1.16 stops less sensitivity for red
log(1.245) / log(2) = 0.32 stops less for blue

>If my understanding is correct (and I trust that you'll be able to
>acurately tell me if it is not), then it is really a question of
>taste... should a blown channel render itself illegible because the
>color information cannot be made fully accurate, or should attempts be
>made to make it as accurate as possible? I certainly think that I
>prefer the ACR way for my subject matter.

Except as some unusual special effect, why would you want erroneously
derived color?  After the converter's WB operation scales the linear RAW
data, the levels-affecting settings render some point in the RAW data as
255 (or 65535) in the output.  If the new clipping point for each
channel lies at the top of that range or above; there isn't much to
consider, as you have no clipped data in the rendered range.  If you
drag the exposure slider further to the left, you may drag the RAW
clipping point of a channel or two below the output clipping point, so
now you have to deal with clipped data.  Rendering it literally serves
no normal purpose; the color is patently false as the green data is
limited before the red and blue are; which would leave a magenta cast
above the green RAW clipping point; if the green is dragged down that
far, than any area with maxed green should be rendered grey/white, as
only luminance is known.

Now, it might not be a bad idea to have a feature that allows you to
borrow hue or clone fluctuations in hue from nearby imagery, *as an
option*, but to literally decode color from data clipped in one or more
channels makes no sense.  ACR tries to do the right thing here, but it
miscalculates something, and doesn't realize that the greenish rectangle
in my stepchart has clipped green in it.  Or, it does some kind of
gradient blend, and the blending curve misses somehow.  Perhaps clipping
points in the same model vary at the same ISO with different specimens?
Maybe.  In that case, RAW converters should have slower, higher-quality
modes that actually sample the data, to look for clipping (it will be
obvious because it will have no random noise), instead of having a
lookup chart for the clipping point.  I haven't examined RAW data from
all cameras at all ISOs, but there really are very few DSLRs that clip
all their pixels at 4095.  The Canon 20D does (at least mine does).  The
1DmkII clips its data at 3711, and 3717 in two different RAW files I
looked at.  The 10D clips at values like 3997, 3999, 4000, 4002, 4004,
4005 at ISO 100, and moving up towards ISO 800, these numbers get
higher, but do not reach 4095.  4095 only exists in the 10D in ISO 1600
and 3200 RAW files.  Each vertical line clips at a different one of
those levels I listed (they may not be exact, but they are something
like that).  The Nikon D200 RAW files I looked at clip at 4095 in every
other vertical column of pixels, and at something like 4000 and 4014,
alternating, in the in-between columns.  In the latter case, as an
example, any value above 4000 is worthless, unless conditional
conversion code is written that is fully aware of the limitations of the
data captured (it is still good for horizontal stripes, for example),
but we're only talking about something like log(4095/4000)/log(2) =.034
stops.  Assuming equal sensitivity in these variable-clipped ranges, it
is easier just to clip everything above 4000.  

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  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

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JPS@no.komm - 20 Feb 2006 15:41 GMT
>Anyone know what the typical range of luminance is in natural settings
>around the world? If we trust the "Sunny 16" rule, then you have
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>sensors that can give us that kind of range? At that point, do you even
>rationalize exposure in the same way?

I can read high-contrast, large-letter B&W text on my 20D, under-exposed
by 10 stops at ISO 1600, RAW-converted myself by hand, in greyscale.
That's about 14 stops, from the perspective of ISO 100, so I think it is
safe to say that the sensor would be capable, with sufficient
digitization quality, of 14 stops of DR at ISO 100, by that standard
(being able to read the text).  Most of the visible distracting noise,
when I have removed banding artifacts to some degree, and binned the
pixels together, is still banding noise.  I can't remove it all
globally, because even though most of the banding artifacts are
consistent across (and down) the lines, there is still some modulation
that only occurs for fractions of the lines, at a smaller level, which
appears with extreme pushing.  If thorough filtering of this pattern
noise could be achieved before RAW conversion, I think we'd get a lot
more out of the current technology.

RAW converters, IMO, are generally very careless about the "shadows"
(which may be the highlights in a push).  I'm only beginning to crack
the pattern noise problem, but I am already coming up with much better
pushed and shadow detail than ACR or any of the other RAW converters can
wring out of the same RAW file.  It would be really nice if Adobe had a
plugin interface to the RAW data, and an SDK, so noise reduction (both
pattern and random) could be addressed where it is most easily
distinguished.  Removing noise after conversion is like trying to remove
the chocolate pudding that you accidentally dropped into you chicken
soup after you stirred it in, instead of removing the glob with a spoon
while it was still intact.
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Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 22 Feb 2006 04:05 GMT
>>Anyone know what the typical range of luminance is in natural settings
>>around the world?

See:
 Digital Cameras: Counting Photons, Photometry,
 and Quantum Efficiency
 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.photons.and.qe
 See Table 2 for luminance levels and exposure times of
 common lighting conditions.

>>If we trust the "Sunny 16" rule, then you have
>>ambient light of around 6826 footcandles in bright sunlight. Which
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>sensors that can give us that kind of range? At that point, do you even
>>rationalize exposure in the same way?

Sixteen stops would be very difficult. Most cameras now have only
12-bit A/D converters so limit to <12 stops.  The 1D Mark II
camera has very low read noise of ~3.9 electrons and a
full well capacity of 79,900 electrons.  That is a dynamic
range of 79900/3.9= 20,487 = 14.3 stops.  To increase to
16 stops, one would need an 18-bit A to D converter and
reduce read noise to 1.2 electrons or increase the full well
to over 250,000 electrons (not likely, or only likely
with much larger pixels).
See:
 Procedures for Evaluating Digital Camera Noise and
 Full Well Capacities; Canon 1D Mark II Analysis
 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-1d2

But it is a rare photograph that would need such dynamic range.
Less than 10 stops is more typical, and even 10 stops is
usually difficult lighting.  Most photographs are much less
than that (e.g. that is why slide film with 5 stop range
still produces stunning photos).  Of course there are
exceptions, like sunsets, but even then it is my opinion
that current DSLRs are good enough to produce great
images (see below).

> I can read high-contrast, large-letter B&W text on my 20D, under-exposed
> by 10 stops at ISO 1600, RAW-converted myself by hand, in greyscale.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> noise could be achieved before RAW conversion, I think we'd get a lot
> more out of the current technology.

You can reduce banding and non uniformities by taking bias
frames and flat fields and subtracting the bias and dividing
by flats to better calibrate the images.  This is routine
processing for astrophotos with DSLRs, for example.

> RAW converters, IMO, are generally very careless about the "shadows"
> (which may be the highlights in a push).  I'm only beginning to crack
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> soup after you stirred it in, instead of removing the glob with a spoon
> while it was still intact.

You may have seen this already, but if not, it does illustrate
what you are saying:
 Digital Camera Raw Converter Shadow Detail and Image
 Editor Limitations: Factors in Getting Shadow Detail in Images
 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/raw.converter.shadow.detail

Roger
JPS@no.komm - 22 Feb 2006 20:45 GMT
In message <43FBE309.5060701@qwest.net>,
"Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <username@qwest.net>
wrote:

>You can reduce banding and non uniformities by taking bias
>frames and flat fields and subtracting the bias and dividing
>by flats to better calibrate the images.  This is routine
>processing for astrophotos with DSLRs, for example.

The horizontal banding in the 20D and 10D RAW data is different every
frame, so it has to be removed based on analysis of the frame.  The
vertical banding, to some degree, seems to repeat in successive frames.
The vertical banding has a greater deviation, but has less high
frequency content so it does not result in chromatic effects, like the
horizontal banding, which is plentiful at the nyquist.
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