Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2006
dynamic range
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Paul Furman - 14 Feb 2006 22:13 GMT Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a polarizer that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail? As I understand, whatever the camera is capable of capturing before the highlights blow is squeezed into the same file format between black & white so a high DR camera is actually going to be a bit less contrasty.
What are the DR ratings for various DSLRs?
Re: 16bit vs 8 bit for prints JPS@no.komm wrote:
> The dynamic range is a ratio, not a height. The maximum dynamic range > expressable at the pixel level is the ratio of the luminance of the > highest value to the lowest. If the values are linear, then the dynamic > range of 16-bit is 257 (65535/255) times as high as 8-bit; if the > shadows are 2.2 gamma-adjusted, 16-bit data has a potential dynamic > range 196,000x as high as 8-bit. Common standards use linear data for > deep shadow ranges, I have been told, so the more probably figure is > 257. 16-bit conversions have a little bit more dynamic range than 8-bit > conversions for low-noise ISOs (provided they are both TIFF; if the > 8-bit is JPEG, then the difference is wider). > > The real limitation to dynamic range is the RAW data itself (at low > ISOs) and noise (at higher ISOs). 2.2-gamma 8-bit data can hold a lot > of DR, and 16-bit astronomical DR. The limitation is precision in the > 8-bit data. Paul Furman - 14 Feb 2006 22:19 GMT > Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a > polarizer that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail? > As I understand, whatever the camera is capable of capturing before the > highlights blow is squeezed into the same file format between black & > white so a high DR camera is actually going to be a bit less contrasty. Or you can just have the raw converter (or jpeg creation) extract something less contrasty and apply curves to that to put the contrast where it's desired... but even then, I sometimes have to do multiple raw conversions to recover blown highlights.
Charles Schuler - 14 Feb 2006 22:31 GMT >> Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a polarizer >> that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail? As I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > where it's desired... but even then, I sometimes have to do multiple raw > conversions to recover blown highlights. No filter can increase dynamic range unless one is willing to expand the range after the fact of a limited/filtered selection. Kind of a cheat, by the way. You can initially clip the dynamic range and then later expand it. So, my answer is basically NO. This could be an interesting thread!
JPS@no.komm - 15 Feb 2006 03:25 GMT >No filter can increase dynamic range unless one is willing to expand the >range after the fact of a limited/filtered selection. Kind of a cheat, by >the way. You can initially clip the dynamic range and then later expand it. >So, my answer is basically NO. This could be an interesting thread! Are you talking about something like the Tiffen "ultra contrast" filters?
I played with that idea a while back, and my conclusion was that all it basically did was raise the blackpoint of the RAW data, while decreasing the effective subject exposure, so in effect, it basically increased exposure latitude at the expense of exposure strength, and did not increase DR at all (it actually reduced it). It is probably more useful with film, or in lifting the shadows in camera JPEGs, than material for RAW conversion.
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><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Jeremy Nixon - 15 Feb 2006 04:52 GMT > Are you talking about something like the Tiffen "ultra contrast" > filters? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > with film, or in lifting the shadows in camera JPEGs, than material for > RAW conversion. It seems to be the same idea as "flashing" paper (or film) in the darkroom to raise the black level out of the bottom of the "toe" of the response curve. That would seem to be inapplicable to RAW capture.
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Bart van der Wolf - 14 Feb 2006 23:32 GMT > Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Not a filter, it would add its own 1-2% reduction (assuming quality coating on all lens groups). A well configured lens hood *will* increase Dynamic range, especially if the lens isn't spotless clean.
Bart
Paul Furman - 15 Feb 2006 03:57 GMT >> Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? > > Not a filter, it would add its own 1-2% reduction (assuming quality > coating on all lens groups). A well configured lens hood *will* increase > Dynamic range, especially if the lens isn't spotless clean. Ben's contrast reducing filter is something I hadn't heard of, a little googling suggests that tends to give a milky look similar to well controlled flare. That suggests that a lens hood increases contrast which is more likely to blow highlights & leave shadows buried.
filters: http://www.tiffen.com/userimages/Contrast_FactSheet_Lo.pdf discussion: http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=000F7D&tag=
Ben Brugman - 14 Feb 2006 23:38 GMT > Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a polarizer > that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail? As I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > What are the DR ratings for various DSLRs? There are filters which in some circumstances make a picture less contrasty. That would mean that in those circumstances you actually can record a scene with more dynamic range. Later on you can use part of the dynamic range to get the picture you actualy want, or you can stretch the dynamic range to obtain a dynamic range which represents the reality a bit more. I do not now how to make such dynamic range visible though. (Not on screen, not on paper). And I don't think that filters which reduce the contrast will improve the picture.
ben brugman
Mikey - 16 Feb 2006 23:00 GMT Ikke ook verrekijker hebben.....goegoegaga
gr. Mikey.
Ben Brugman schreef:
> > Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a polarizer > > that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail? As I [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > ben brugman Bart van der Wolf - 14 Feb 2006 23:42 GMT SNIP
> What are the DR ratings for various DSLRs? They can/could extend to the full 12-bit (4095:1) range that the DSLR's ADC provides, give or take half a bit quantization error. Boosting that to the 32767:1 or 65535:1 working space range will help to allow for post-processing rounding errors, before reducing that to the 126:1 printing range.
Bart
JPS@no.komm - 15 Feb 2006 03:17 GMT >Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a >polarizer that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail? You mean a non-linear luminance response? I've never heard of anything. The filter would have to be able to distinguish light passing through it at different angles; at any point on the surface, light can be coming from different source points with different destinations, so even if there was a way to make photon sweaken sensitivity to further photons, it would have to distinguish between different directions, and it would not work in front of the lens.
Maybe on the sensor itself?
Usually, the compromise with such things is increased noise, defeating the purpose. That's probably why the cameras aren't creating gamma-adjusted RAW files on the fly; the circuitry might be very noisy to do so (and harder to calibrate).
>As I understand, whatever the camera is capable of capturing before the >highlights blow is squeezed into the same file format between black & >white so a high DR camera is actually going to be a bit less contrasty. > >What are the DR ratings for various DSLRs? That depends on the standard of DR. I can read large black and white text on a box with my 20D under-exposed by 11 stops at ISO 1600 (pushed to ISO 3,200,000, and binned), so by some standard, highlights 15 stops below the sensor maximum are usable against blackness ("banding" really competes with the signal at this level). As far as individual pixels are concerned, as measuring instruments, DR is limited by the bit-depth, if not further by noise, which seems to be what Roger Clark is testing with his DR experiments. Some people say they are 5 to 6 stops, but that would be a very high standard; they might be talking about exposure latitude of a 5 to 6 stop DR image and mistakenly calling it the DR of the camera.
Whatever the standard, though, I would think that the cameras will rank pretty much in the same order, but issues like banding vs random noise could cause relative shifts in ranking.
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><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 15 Feb 2006 05:17 GMT >>Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a >>polarizer that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail? > > You mean a non-linear luminance response? I guess so. Like the HDR (High Dynamic Range) CS2 utility that merges several exposures.
> I've never heard of anything. > The filter would have to be able to distinguish light passing through it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Maybe on the sensor itself? Yeah maybe, it would just shut down the individual sensel when it got close to filling up. No way to really predict which will blow until it's done so maybe a test shot that makes a custom mask for a neutral density filter for that shot. I forget how to create a mask with an alpha channel in PS which has a similar effect, not sure why it's so complicated but it is. Convert the raw file twice, once really dark to preserve highlights, once normal and use the highlight one to mask itself???
> Usually, the compromise with such things is increased noise, defeating > the purpose. <snip>
> As far as individual pixels > are concerned, as measuring instruments, DR is limited by the bit-depth, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > latitude of a 5 to 6 stop DR image and mistakenly calling it the DR of > the camera. So what that suggests is that low noise in the shadows would let you expose to preserve highlights and boost the (not too badly degraded) shadow detail so that low noise equals high dynamic range. That makes sense.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 15 Feb 2006 15:25 GMT >>> Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a >>> polarizer that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> Maybe on the sensor itself? I'm surprised no one has mentioned split density filters. They are used when a large bright portion of an image needs darkening, like bright sky.
> Yeah maybe, it would just shut down the individual sensel when it got > close to filling up. No way to really predict which will blow until it's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > preserve highlights, once normal and use the highlight one to mask > itself??? With a good raw converter, this shouldn't be necessary, but unfortunately, it is with many. Another thing: to recover highlights, convert in linear space (some converters will not do this, like photoshop). If you do get one that does, you can gain about 1/3 stop.
For shadow detail, see: Digital Camera Raw Converter Shadow Detail and Image Editor Limitations: Factors in Getting Shadow Detail in Images http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/raw.converter.shadow.detail
>> Usually, the compromise with such things is increased noise, defeating >> the purpose. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > shadow detail so that low noise equals high dynamic range. That makes > sense. Yes. The lower noise camera, the better the result. Two references:
Dynamic Range and Transfer Functions of Digital Images and Comparison to Film http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2
See figure 8b for comparisons in stops.
This page: The Signal-to-Noise of Digital Camera images and Comparison to Film http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.signal.to.noise
shows noise and full well data, and the corresponding dynamic range (defined as maximum signal/read noise). The dynamic range of better DSLRs is limited by the 12-bit A/D converters. See Table 3.
Roger
JPS@no.komm - 16 Feb 2006 00:50 GMT >Yeah maybe, it would just shut down the individual sensel when it got >close to filling up. No way to really predict which will blow until it's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >complicated but it is. Convert the raw file twice, once really dark to >preserve highlights, once normal and use the highlight one to mask itself??? People do that, but I don't bother with it. It may be an easy way to handle things, with a PS "Action", but I find it kind of ridiculous that anyone would even have to do such a thing. You should be able to do this in the RAW converter, if it had good ways of tone mapping, and the ability to control contrast at the tonal level (something like an expanded "shadow/highlight" tool right in the converter.
The current crop of RAW converters all leave a lot to be desired; I wish I could hybridize them and use the best of each, but they'd still be missing features I'd like.
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><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< John McWilliams - 17 Feb 2006 02:38 GMT >>Yeah maybe, it would just shut down the individual sensel when it got >>close to filling up. No way to really predict which will blow until it's [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ability to control contrast at the tonal level (something like an > expanded "shadow/highlight" tool right in the converter. My understanding is that the RAW converter in CS II does just that. Or if not, it can be done in 16 bit with a built in in Photoshop.
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JPS@no.komm - 17 Feb 2006 03:58 GMT >My understanding is that the RAW converter in CS II does just that. Or >if not, it can be done in 16 bit with a built in in Photoshop. I don't think so; ACR looks like it just uses a transfer function. THe shadow/highlight tool boosts contrast in shadows and highlights, which is not a straight transfer function. Simply cramming highlights into an image reduces the contrast in the highlights.
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><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Jeremy Nixon - 17 Feb 2006 04:24 GMT > My understanding is that the RAW converter in CS II does just that. Or > if not, it can be done in 16 bit with a built in in Photoshop. ACR doesn't do what he's really talking about; it does something that makes you wish it did what he's talking about, but it's not quite there.
That said, I find ACR curves sufficient for almost all of my images. I haven't seen the slightest need to do the "two conversions, one for highlight and one for shadow" trick since they introduced the curves. When the ACR curves aren't enough, the picture generally gets taken into LAB mode in Photoshop. LAB curves would be a nice ACR feature.
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Paul Furman - 17 Feb 2006 05:53 GMT >>My understanding is that the RAW converter in CS II does just that. Or >>if not, it can be done in 16 bit with a built in in Photoshop. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > When the ACR curves aren't enough, the picture generally gets taken into > LAB mode in Photoshop. LAB curves would be a nice ACR feature. Damn, I only have CS, not CS2. I need to do two conversions to get everything. Huge difference!
How does LAB help?
Jeremy Nixon - 17 Feb 2006 21:16 GMT > Damn, I only have CS, not CS2. I need to do two conversions to get > everything. Huge difference! Camera Raw 3 is itself enough reason to upgrade to CS2. It essentially makes Photoshop a plugin for Camera Raw.
> How does LAB help? Whole different religion. LAB separates luminance from color, and makes some editing moves easier (and makes some possible).
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go go dancer - 15 Feb 2006 04:11 GMT I don't know about a filter but I know when using camera raw in photoshop to open a raw image, you can alter the contrast which results in more detail in shadows and (provided it is there in the first place) highlights. It makes for a very flat looking picture but one which can have it's attenuation increased with other tools to liven up the image.
My experience has been that under exposing when bright objects are present by up to 2 stops allows you to use Photoshop tools the lighten the dark areas while keeping the highlights under control. This also results in flat looking pictures.
I think that until the sensors can capture a wider range of detail - maybe closer to human vision - no digital camera and no filter will produce a pleasant looking picture with the full range of such scenes as would normally have blown highlights and blacked shadows.
Maddy
mark.thomas.7@gmail.com - 15 Feb 2006 10:17 GMT Just as an aside, I often hear how cameras (film or digital) don't capture anywhere near the dynamic range of the eye. But I have an objection to that simplistic criticism.. The eye cheats!!! The eye builds up it's image from scanning about, and it adjusts its pupil (aperture) as required. The final image you are 'seeing' is more of a composite than a single snapshot! This happens very quickly, but it is not unlike the way a video camera adjusts it's aperture as it pans acroos light and dark scenes.
Once the eye has gathered that information, it does a very creditable job of handing over the best bits to the brain to collate it into a usable image. It's not unlike Photoshop's HDR or whatever it's called. And would be very hard to measure...
If you don't believe me, allow me to repeat a small party trick similar to one I use in my digital imaging classes.... Look intently at a word in the middle of a paragraph.. (in a paragraph you *haven't* read!) Now, while you hold your eyesight aiming steadily and *directly* at that word (no cheating!!), try to 'read' the sentences that are 4 or 5 lines above or below it. You will notice two things:
1. You can't do it! If you can, you are very unusual!
2. Somehow, even though that nearby text is illegible, it somehow seems 'sharp'.
Think about this - how can it seem sharp, and yet you can't read it? The answer is simple, your brain *knows* that the stuff is sharp, and so it 'is'. But in reality, anything outside that centre few degrees of sharp vision is in fact quite blurred. So what you are seeing is not actually the truth. The 'sharpness' is built up from the rapid scanning it has done, or in some cases it is simply because you know from experience that the unresolved area is sharp.
I am certain the brain does something similar with contrast, but how would you measure it? And of what significance is it, anyway? I dunno, but it's interesting to think about.. (O:
Anyway, we already have light sensitive plastics that darken on exposure to sunlight...ok, maybe not applicable.. but why not an electronically driven polariser/lcd that sat in front of the sensor and had adjustable darkness per pixel? (O: Who knows what the future will bring, maybe sensor technology will improve along the lines suggested before, ie the sensor simply shuts itself down as much as it needs to, and more importantly, records the amount of 'compensation' so that the light level is still recorded accurately..
Paul Furman - 15 Feb 2006 15:07 GMT > Just as an aside, I often hear how cameras (film or digital) don't > capture anywhere near the dynamic range of the eye. But I have an [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > not unlike the way a video camera adjusts it's aperture as it pans > acroos light and dark scenes. Maybe this is why compositing or averaging exposures doesn't work well in real world conditions: it looks flat and unreal. The only way I've found is to manually mask out the way the eye would manually mask bright & dark regions, taking in each one at a time. That way there are still a few stong highlights in the shadow areas and normal contrast and the bright regions (sky) can be toned down to readable values while still keeping dark branches for instance against the sky.
> Once the eye has gathered that information, it does a very creditable > job of handing over the best bits to the brain to collate it into a [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > and more importantly, records the amount of 'compensation' so that the > light level is still recorded accurately.. Wolfgang Weisselberg - 15 Feb 2006 11:22 GMT > Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? No.
The camera sensor can record each pixel from blackpoint to max.
You cannot lower the blackpoint, not with a filter, you cannot get a higher value than a filled electron well provides, not with a filter.
The response of each pixel is (nearly) linear. Again a filter cannot change that, unless it was *directly* on the sensor itself and acted somewhat like a self-toning sunglass.
You could, however, build a sensor that had such a filter, or used sensitive and less sensitive wells, or had a sensor well coupled with a timestamp when full (and use the 'when was it full' timestamp to estimate how mny times it would have been filled --- although that will play hell when combining flash with longer exposures and not act like film at all) or have a sensor dump itself when full (and continuing to collect data) with a counter telling you how often that happened, or try if huge electron wells will give you more dynamic range (though noise can be a problem there!) ...
Or you simply use multiple exposures with different exposure data and combine that data with DRI. Unfortunately, that is not an indicated technique with moving objects.
Or you simply use the usual methods (reflectors, fill flash, etc.) to ensure the objects to be photographed are all within the dynamic range of your camera. The added bonus there is that this technique also works with slide and print film.
-Wolfgang
Beach Bum - 17 Feb 2006 22:07 GMT > Could there be a filter to increase dynamic range? Kinda like a > polarizer that blocks bright light while letting in dim shadow detail? > As I understand, whatever the camera is capable of capturing before the > highlights blow is squeezed into the same file format between black & > white so a high DR camera is actually going to be a bit less contrasty. With film there is a way to use a double exposure to do this. First shoot a gray card (not 18% I think, but I don't know the details and don't have time to look it up), then second exposure you expose for the highlights. This pre-exposure is supposed to affect the film somehow that gives the shaddows some help. I first read about this in one of Ansel Adams' books. I have no idea if there is some trick that could simulate this, although I read some blending techniques that work pretty well at Luminous Landscapes.
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w.beckley@gmail.com - 20 Feb 2006 05:44 GMT A few things:
If dynamic range is your primary concern in photography, even more than resolution, then you should look into Fuji's Nikon-mount S3 Pro. Each pixel location is actually a large pixel and a small pixel, capturing shadows and highlights. The camera has a relatively low resoluion at around 6 megapixels, but it apparently has tremendous dynamic range.
Barring that, you could get Adobe Camera Raw, which has tremendous highlight recovery capabilities. Check out "Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS2" by Bruce Fraser for some wonderful insights. You'll start to convert RAW files in a quarter of the time and get 500% better results. In any case, that's how I estimate my improvement after reading that book.
Long story short, when exposing for RAW, you always want to do the following two things: 1.) Expose low enough that nothing blows out that shouldn't be blowing out (obviously, if you've got a light source in the shot, you might not mind that it blows out; it would on even the best films if exposed properly for the whole scene.
2.) Expose as high as you can with regards to (1.). Basically, you don't want any blowout, but you want to be knocking on the door of absolute white.
The reason for this is better explained in the book (and in the "Expose Right" article on Luminous Landscape), but basically, a chip records light in a linear fashion and this means that your hottest stop contains half of your picture information, and your second hottest stop contains one quarter (which makes perfect sense if you understand our logarithmic perception of light). Adobe Camera Raw *basically* allows you to distribute these bits more evenly throughout the image and results in better conversions. Doing this, you'll find that most cameras have terrific dynamic range.
As for specific DR ratings for cameras, Imaging Resource has started to collect data on this. A recent example of their stats can be found on the review page for the Canon EOS 1Ds MkII:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/EOS1DS2/1DS2IMATEST.HTM
The methodology leaves plenty to be desired, so take it with some salt, but they conclude that, independent of RAW conversion, the following make the top 5 DSLRs in terms of DR:
1. Fuji S3 Pro : 7.94 stops at "high" quality 2. Nikon D50 : 7.36 stops at "high" quality 3. Canon 20D : 7.29 stops at "high" quality 4. Canon Rebel XT : 7.11 stops at "high" quality 5. Olympus E-VOLT : 7.07 stops at "high" quality
They only test RAW conversion on two cameras: the S3 and the 1Ds2, and these both see an increase of a little over a stop because of it. So you can conclude that alot of DSLRs, even cheap ones, can get 8 stops with RAW conversion. That's nothing to shake a stick at.
Anyone know what the typical range of luminance is in natural settings around the world? If we trust the "Sunny 16" rule, then you have ambient light of around 6826 footcandles in bright sunlight. Which suggests to me that the 14-stop difference between 1 footcandle and 8192 footcandles would get you nearly everything you want, if exposed properly. Surely, then, a 16-stop range from 1 footcandle to 32,768 footcandles would be enough, right? And even then, that's if you wanted full seperation between 1 and 2 footcandles. How long until we have sensors that can give us that kind of range? At that point, do you even rationalize exposure in the same way?
Food for thought,
Will
Andrew Haley - 20 Feb 2006 12:13 GMT > They only test RAW conversion on two cameras: the S3 and the 1Ds2, and > these both see an increase of a little over a stop because of it. So > you can conclude that alot of DSLRs, even cheap ones, can get 8 stops > with RAW conversion. That's nothing to shake a stick at.
> Anyone know what the typical range of luminance is in natural settings > around the world? If we trust the "Sunny 16" rule, then you have > ambient light of around 6826 footcandles in bright sunlight. Which > suggests to me that the 14-stop difference between 1 footcandle and > 8192 footcandles would get you nearly everything you want, if exposed > properly. Think, for a moment, about lens flare. A really good fixed focal length lens has 0.6% flare, according to http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/flare.html. So, if there is a very bright area somewhere in the image, any very dark areas will be veiled in flare -- even with a very good lens.
If the lens can't deliver an image with huge dynamic range, the sensor won't record it.
Andrew.
JPS@no.komm - 20 Feb 2006 16:13 GMT >Think, for a moment, about lens flare. A really good fixed focal >length lens has 0.6% flare, according to >http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/flare.html. So, if there is a very bright >area somewhere in the image, any very dark areas will be veiled in >flare -- even with a very good lens.
>If the lens can't deliver an image with huge dynamic range, the sensor >won't record it. It doesn't work like that. Flare does not veil anything; it adds to the other signal.
On my Canon 20D, when there is no exposure, the RAW data is 128,128,128. That is called the blackpoint. If lens flare adds 100,200,150 (much, much more than your 0.6%, BTW; this would be about 10%), then the effective blackpoint (assuming you want to remove the flare) becomes 228,328,278. Any small shadow signal is *added* to this; not "veiled" by it. You don't lose any shadows because of this; you lose a small amount of highlights, as it takes less "real, desired" image brightness to clip the RAW data, but you'd be losing something like 200 out of 3968 (already less than 4096 because of the original 128 blackpoint) possible levels in the green channel, for 3768 usable RAW levels.
log(3768/3968) / log(2) = -0.0746, or a loss of 0.07 stops of dynamic range. This is not an understatement; 200 is really much more than what you'd expect with a moderately flare-prone lens in normal circumstances. Even if you are shooting into a cave with the sun shining on the lens, and the flare is most of the signal. it will be about 500 in the green channel with auto-exposure (that is where middle grey generally lies), and your shadows will still be intact. For such a shot, with such low contrast, you should use +2 EC (or more, if you know where the RAW clipping point is), so your signal is as trong as possible; keeping the flare exposed lower does not help; as the "desired signal" is then also lower. A high-pass filter at a very low frequency would eliminate and difference in flare from center to edge.
Now, I'm not saying that the RAW converters we have do all of this well, right now, but that is what is happening in the RAW data, and how it can be overcome.
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><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 20 Feb 2006 18:12 GMT >>Think, for a moment, about lens flare. A really good fixed focal >>length lens has 0.6% flare, according to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > It doesn't work like that. Flare does not veil anything; it adds to the > other signal. If anything, flare increases dynamic range by decreasing contrast like the filters discussed above. It seems unavoidable that it muddies up the image but it does sort of increase dynamic range.
> On my Canon 20D, when there is no exposure, the RAW data is 128,128,128. > That is called the blackpoint. If lens flare adds 100,200,150 (much, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > right now, but that is what is happening in the RAW data, and how it can > be overcome.
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JPS@no.komm - 21 Feb 2006 02:00 GMT
>>>Think, for a moment, about lens flare. A really good fixed focal >>>length lens has 0.6% flare, according to >>>http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/flare.html. So, if there is a very bright >>>area somewhere in the image, any very dark areas will be veiled in >>>flare -- even with a very good lens.
>>>If the lens can't deliver an image with huge dynamic range, the sensor >>>won't record it.
>> It doesn't work like that. Flare does not veil anything; it adds to the >> other signal.
>If anything, flare increases dynamic range by decreasing contrast like >the filters discussed above. It seems unavoidable that it muddies up the >image but it does sort of increase dynamic range. It doesn't decrease contrast by using a system where 1 stop is a ratio of 1.7 instead of 2; it is additive, and decreases contrast only by losing the black end. It seems to have value with film, and it may even have some value with JPEG, but the RAW data gains no dynamic range by having a blanket of extra light across the frame; It steals a little bit of the dynamic range, as I explained in the part of my post that you did not comment on:
On my Canon 20D, when there is no exposure, the RAW data is 128,128,128. That is called the blackpoint. If lens flare adds 100,200,150 (much, much more than your 0.6%, BTW; this would be about 10%), then the effective blackpoint (assuming you want to remove the flare) becomes 228,328,278. Any small shadow signal is *added* to this; not "veiled" by it. You don't lose any shadows because of this; you lose a small amount of highlights, as it takes less "real, desired" image brightness to clip the RAW data, but you'd be losing something like 200 out of 3968 (already less than 4096 because of the original 128 blackpoint) possible levels in the green channel, for 3768 usable RAW levels. log(3768/3968) / log(2) = -0.0746, or a loss of 0.07 stops of dynamic range. This is not an understatement; 200 is really much more than what you'd expect with a moderately flare-prone lens in normal circumstances. Even if you are shooting into a cave with the sun shining on the lens, and the flare is most of the signal. it will be about 500 in the green channel with auto-exposure (that is where middle grey generally lies), and your shadows will still be intact. For such a shot, with such low contrast, you should use +2 EC (or more, if you know where the RAW clipping point is), so your signal is as trong as possible; keeping the flare exposed lower does not help; as the "desired signal" is then also lower. A high-pass filter at a very low frequency would eliminate and difference in flare from center to edge.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 21 Feb 2006 02:31 GMT >>>>Think, for a moment, about lens flare. A really good fixed focal >>>>length lens has 0.6% flare, according to [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > of the dynamic range, as I explained in the part of my post that you did > not comment on: Heh, I didn't comment because I didn't understand <g>. But I can get the idea that flare doesn't help raw data and there are plenty of tools to bring up the shadows in PS & ACR so I guess that's the way to go, not a flare inducing filter.
> On my Canon 20D, when there is no exposure, the RAW data is 128,128,128. > That is called the blackpoint. If lens flare adds 100,200,150 (much, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > lower. A high-pass filter at a very low frequency would eliminate and > difference in flare from center to edge.
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Andrew Haley - 21 Feb 2006 20:22 GMT >>Think, for a moment, about lens flare. A really good fixed focal >>length lens has 0.6% flare, according to >>http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/flare.html. So, if there is a very bright >>area somewhere in the image, any very dark areas will be veiled in >>flare -- even with a very good lens.
>>If the lens can't deliver an image with huge dynamic range, the sensor >>won't record it.
> It doesn't work like that. Flare does not veil anything; it adds to the > other signal.
> On my Canon 20D, when there is no exposure, the RAW data is 128,128,128. > That is called the blackpoint. If lens flare adds 100,200,150 (much, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > (already less than 4096 because of the original 128 blackpoint) possible > levels in the green channel, for 3768 usable RAW levels. You're assuming that flare is uniform across the image. It's not, so you can't simply pick a point and call that black. If the blackpoint is too high you'll balck out some shadows, and if it's too low you lose DR. Flare is a real loss of contrast and imposes a limit on the dynamic range of any camera.
> log(3768/3968) / log(2) = -0.0746, or a loss of 0.07 stops of dynamic > range. This is not an understatement; 200 is really much more than what [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > contrast, you should use +2 EC (or more, if you know where the RAW > clipping point is), Not on my camera! I'm quite sure there aren't 2 stops to spare.
> so your signal is as trong as possible; keeping the > flare exposed lower does not help; as the "desired signal" is then also > lower. A high-pass filter at a very low frequency would eliminate and > difference in flare from center to edge.
> Now, I'm not saying that the RAW converters we have do all of this well, > right now, but that is what is happening in the RAW data, and how it can > be overcome. I'm not convinced that it can altogether be overcome. If flare was an absolutely uniform addition to every sample, things might be different. But that's not possible.
Andrew.
Paul Furman - 21 Feb 2006 21:06 GMT >>>Think, for a moment, about lens flare. A really good fixed focal >>>length lens has 0.6% flare, according to [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > lose DR. Flare is a real loss of contrast and imposes a limit on the > dynamic range of any camera. But isn't lreduced contrast needed for capturing high contrast scenes? Compress that dynamic range into what the sensor can hold. When I increase contrast in raw conversion, the highlights blow and the shadows get blocked. For a high contrast scene, I reduce contrast as much as possible.
>>log(3768/3968) / log(2) = -0.0746, or a loss of 0.07 stops of dynamic >>range. This is not an understatement; 200 is really much more than what [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Andrew.
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JPS@no.komm - 22 Feb 2006 02:00 GMT >But isn't lreduced contrast needed for capturing high contrast scenes? If there was a way to make a stop equal less than 2x in the RAW data, without raising the effective blackpoint, then that would achieve what you want, but flare or Tiffen Ultra Contrast filters just rob some of the light and blanket it across the frame. The result is reduced real_exposure (lower real_signal to noise ratio), which in effect, is the same thing as under-exposing in the first place.
It is not helpful in a linear response like RAW data.
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><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Andrew Haley - 22 Feb 2006 12:17 GMT >> You're assuming that flare is uniform across the image. It's not, so >> you can't simply pick a point and call that black. If the blackpoint >> is too high you'll balck out some shadows, and if it's too low you >> lose DR. Flare is a real loss of contrast and imposes a limit on the >> dynamic range of any camera.
> But isn't lreduced contrast needed for capturing high contrast scenes? > Compress that dynamic range into what the sensor can hold. > When I increase contrast in raw conversion, the highlights blow and > the shadows get blocked. For a high contrast scene, I reduce > contrast as much as possible. There's a fundamental difference between boosting the brightness of real detail in shadows and adding extraneous light. In mathematical terms, when you boost levels in shadows you're multiplying each recorded pixel by a constant, but flare *adds* to each pixel.
When you make the exposure, you need to maximize the contrast at the sensor -- you can reduce contrast later, if you wish, but flare is a loss of quality becasue it veils shadow details.
Andrew.
w.beckley@gmail.com - 21 Feb 2006 05:16 GMT Even if this is the case, it is irrelevant. Driving to work this morning, I had the sun in my eyes, and my eyes flared and my vision was obscured. A film camera, likewise, does the same thing. Optical systems flare... that's part of the deal. You have to deal with flare on your own if you want to protect your images.
Will
JPS@no.komm - 20 Feb 2006 14:36 GMT >If dynamic range is your primary concern in photography, even more than >resolution, then you should look into Fuji's Nikon-mount S3 Pro. Each >pixel location is actually a large pixel and a small pixel, capturing >shadows and highlights. The camera has a relatively low resoluion at >around 6 megapixels, but it apparently has tremendous dynamic range. Yes, but mainly into the bright end. That's great for shooting in daylight with dark shadows (which aren't really very dark in an absolute sense), or scenes that contain lights in them, but this does nothing for sensitivity, which is part of what is desirable about "dynamic range". It doesn't help you hand-hold a shot in very low light, which is something that *would* be the by-product of having tremendous dynamic range in a single pixel. I like to think of those extra pixels as "highlight helpers".
I'm curious now about how the data is used in RAW converters. Are the two sets of data merged into 16-bit linear data, or are they kept separate in the conversion process so the effect can be masked out where it isn't needed? I'd like to find some RAW samples and see what the DNG converter does with them (uncompressed DNG holds literal RAW bitmaps at the end, which can be loaded into PS as ".raw", but get posterized by the 15-bit + 1 format).
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Paul Furman - 20 Feb 2006 18:26 GMT >>If dynamic range is your primary concern in photography, even more than >>resolution, then you should look into Fuji's Nikon-mount S3 Pro. Each [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yes, but mainly into the bright end. That's still useful. Probably that's when I really want more dynamic range. It looks like the Fuji is about the same $1700 price as a D200. That's how I got into this discussion, thinking about what a D200 is going to give me that I don't have in a D70. I'd be curious to test a Fuji. I think sheer pixel count also improves dynamic range though & the D200 has 11MP which are pretty clean noise-wise. I wouldn't really want that huge body the Fuji has either & the D200 is just a tad bigger than a D70. If I was a pro with the budget, the Fuji would be a useful second body for particular uses.
> That's great for shooting in > daylight with dark shadows (which aren't really very dark in an absolute [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the end, which can be loaded into PS as ".raw", but get posterized by > the 15-bit + 1 format).
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w.beckley@gmail.com - 21 Feb 2006 05:13 GMT It's definitely useful in the highlights. Blown highlights (the absense of a shoulder, really) are the biggest giveaway that an image is digital. And even if that weren't the case, added DR in the highlights simply means that you can underexpose more and move some of that gain to the shadows, provided your whole system (aperture and shutter) allows for it.
I can't say as I agree with John about dynamic range being inextricably linked to sensitivity. For simplicity's sake, lets say a given camera (or film) has the ability to capture 10 full stops of DR. You'd need a scene whose brightest point is 1024 footcandles to capture all shadow detail down to a single footcandle. Given a 50mm/1.4 prime, wide open, and a perfectly-fair handholding shutter speed of 1/60, you'd need a sensitivity of around 100 EI/ASA/ISO. That would put 32 footcandles at exposure, 1 footcandle 5 stops under at the bottom, and 1024 footcandles 5 stops over at the top. The same scene requires a sensitivity of 800 EI/ASA/ISO if you can only open up to a 4.0. A 5.6 requires 1600. I don't think we're quite working with 10 stops yet, so the cutoff point is closer to 256 footcandles (8 stops).
Still, the fact remains: dynamic range is simply a range of acceptable exposure for the light hitting the chip after being organized by both the lens aperture and a shutter, with those settings selected with regard to the sensitivity of the chip. A chip can't tell the difference between a scene that ranges from 1-256 footcandles and another that ranges from 16-4096 footcandles, as long as the shutter speed and aperture are set in such a way as to properly expose both of them.
Will
JPS@no.komm - 20 Feb 2006 15:08 GMT >Barring that, you could get Adobe Camera Raw, which has tremendous >highlight recovery capabilities. Check out "Camera Raw with Adobe >Photoshop CS2" by Bruce Fraser for some wonderful insights. You'll >start to convert RAW files in a quarter of the time and get 500% better >results. In any case, that's how I estimate my improvement after >reading that book. At least for some cameras, ACR doesn't render colors well when "recovering highlights" (they were never really lost, if you shot RAW). Look at this grey scale, over-exposed by two stops and rendered with -4 EC in ACR:
http://www.pbase.com/jps_photo/image/55953848
There really should be nothing higher than middle grey in this render, as there is only 4.5 stops above middle grey in the least sensitive (red) channel, so -4 should bring the top of the scale to 1/2 stop above middle grey. ACR "nails" the RAW highlights to 255 in the output, even when you reduce the exposure drastically. This distorts the highlights, and should be an option; not hard-wired into the code. It would be much better if there was an "exposure" control that was purely linear, that acted on the data before variable gamma curves are applied, and they should be optional. Also, look at the green color in the 5th grey rectangle from the left. The program does a good job of rendering the brightest rectangles grey, but it gets confused somewhere in the transition point. The rectangle rendered green is the darkest one in which the RAW data starts to clip; only the green channel is clipping there. In the 4th rectangle, both the blue and green are clipped. The red channel provides the distinction between rectangles 2, 3, and 4. The 5th rectangle really should have been treated as greyscale, not color.
I have an old version of Capture One around (1.2), and it renders the way you'd expect; it maintains grey highlights from one or two channels, but leaves no color cast, and the RAW clipping point gets pulled down below 255 in the output when you render with maximum negative exposure compensation.
IMO, ACR is not the best tool for recovering highlights, at least with some cameras.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< w.beckley@gmail.com - 21 Feb 2006 04:36 GMT As I understand it (and that may not be very well at all), one of the differences between highlight recovery in ACR and in other software is that ACR will allow a single channel to blow out and also allow you to recover the other two. Other software, I know, views a single blown channel as a blowout in all channels at that pixel location. Such a distinction, then, could explain the artifact you observe if the grey chart was lit with light of a different color than the camera's actual color balance (no idea what that might be, but it must have one). In such a case, a grey chart is a test that disadvantages ACR and advantages others, just as a test with many non-neutral hues plays to ACR's strengths and other software's weaknesses.
If my understanding is correct (and I trust that you'll be able to acurately tell me if it is not), then it is really a question of taste... should a blown channel render itself illegible because the color information cannot be made fully accurate, or should attempts be made to make it as accurate as possible? I certainly think that I prefer the ACR way for my subject matter. If I need to correct neutral subjects that pick up an unwanted color cast, I can always desaturate, even selectively (your grey chart desaturated beautifully on my system, and it looks like you'd be hard pressed to fault ACR's luminance rendering). In my real-world tests, I like the color rendering of ACR more than I like Aperture or CaptureOne LE. But to each his own.
Will
JPS@no.komm - 21 Feb 2006 15:34 GMT >As I understand it (and that may not be very well at all), one of the >differences between highlight recovery in ACR and in other software is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >advantages others, just as a test with many non-neutral hues plays to >ACR's strengths and other software's weaknesses. Other converters render greyscale highlights in areas with one or two clipped channels just fine; This same file looks just like you'd expect in Capture One v1.2; greyscale, in normal-looking steps up to "A"; which is the same as rectangle "1", because both have all three channels clipped. RSE can render it similar, grey-wise, but has a slight cast to the white value, even if I dropper-clicked the white balance by an unclupped rectangle (which are sightly reddish on the chart), or the grey background for the text, which is actually very close to being grey.
The 10D's natural color balance, like most DSLRs, has about 1 stop less sensitivity to red as to green. Red is the least sensitive channel in most RGB Bayer digitals; red is almost always 0.9 to 1.2 stops less sensitive than green. Blue is usually 0.1 to 0.5 stops less sensitive than green (although in at least one P&S that outputs RAW, blue is 1.5 stops weaker). In the case of the 10D, which my example is from, red is 1.16 stops less sensitive, and blue 0.32 stops.
from dcraw.c: (red) pre_mul[0] = 2.242; (blue) pre_mul[2] = 1.245;
those are the values that the red and blue RAW data are multiplied by (after blackpoint subtraction) to achieve daylight WB (grey=grey in white light).
so: log(2.242) / log(2) = 1.16 stops less sensitivity for red log(1.245) / log(2) = 0.32 stops less for blue
>If my understanding is correct (and I trust that you'll be able to >acurately tell me if it is not), then it is really a question of >taste... should a blown channel render itself illegible because the >color information cannot be made fully accurate, or should attempts be >made to make it as accurate as possible? I certainly think that I >prefer the ACR way for my subject matter. Except as some unusual special effect, why would you want erroneously derived color? After the converter's WB operation scales the linear RAW data, the levels-affecting settings render some point in the RAW data as 255 (or 65535) in the output. If the new clipping point for each channel lies at the top of that range or above; there isn't much to consider, as you have no clipped data in the rendered range. If you drag the exposure slider further to the left, you may drag the RAW clipping point of a channel or two below the output clipping point, so now you have to deal with clipped data. Rendering it literally serves no normal purpose; the color is patently false as the green data is limited before the red and blue are; which would leave a magenta cast above the green RAW clipping point; if the green is dragged down that far, than any area with maxed green should be rendered grey/white, as only luminance is known.
Now, it might not be a bad idea to have a feature that allows you to borrow hue or clone fluctuations in hue from nearby imagery, *as an option*, but to literally decode color from data clipped in one or more channels makes no sense. ACR tries to do the right thing here, but it miscalculates something, and doesn't realize that the greenish rectangle in my stepchart has clipped green in it. Or, it does some kind of gradient blend, and the blending curve misses somehow. Perhaps clipping points in the same model vary at the same ISO with different specimens? Maybe. In that case, RAW converters should have slower, higher-quality modes that actually sample the data, to look for clipping (it will be obvious because it will have no random noise), instead of having a lookup chart for the clipping point. I haven't examined RAW data from all cameras at all ISOs, but there really are very few DSLRs that clip all their pixels at 4095. The Canon 20D does (at least mine does). The 1DmkII clips its data at 3711, and 3717 in two different RAW files I looked at. The 10D clips at values like 3997, 3999, 4000, 4002, 4004, 4005 at ISO 100, and moving up towards ISO 800, these numbers get higher, but do not reach 4095. 4095 only exists in the 10D in ISO 1600 and 3200 RAW files. Each vertical line clips at a different one of those levels I listed (they may not be exact, but they are something like that). The Nikon D200 RAW files I looked at clip at 4095 in every other vertical column of pixels, and at something like 4000 and 4014, alternating, in the in-between columns. In the latter case, as an example, any value above 4000 is worthless, unless conditional conversion code is written that is fully aware of the limitations of the data captured (it is still good for horizontal stripes, for example), but we're only talking about something like log(4095/4000)/log(2) =.034 stops. Assuming equal sensitivity in these variable-clipped ranges, it is easier just to clip everything above 4000.
 Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< JPS@no.komm - 20 Feb 2006 15:41 GMT >Anyone know what the typical range of luminance is in natural settings >around the world? If we trust the "Sunny 16" rule, then you have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >sensors that can give us that kind of range? At that point, do you even >rationalize exposure in the same way? I can read high-contrast, large-letter B&W text on my 20D, under-exposed by 10 stops at ISO 1600, RAW-converted myself by hand, in greyscale. That's about 14 stops, from the perspective of ISO 100, so I think it is safe to say that the sensor would be capable, with sufficient digitization quality, of 14 stops of DR at ISO 100, by that standard (being able to read the text). Most of the visible distracting noise, when I have removed banding artifacts to some degree, and binned the pixels together, is still banding noise. I can't remove it all globally, because even though most of the banding artifacts are consistent across (and down) the lines, there is still some modulation that only occurs for fractions of the lines, at a smaller level, which appears with extreme pushing. If thorough filtering of this pattern noise could be achieved before RAW conversion, I think we'd get a lot more out of the current technology.
RAW converters, IMO, are generally very careless about the "shadows" (which may be the highlights in a push). I'm only beginning to crack the pattern noise problem, but I am already coming up with much better pushed and shadow detail than ACR or any of the other RAW converters can wring out of the same RAW file. It would be really nice if Adobe had a plugin interface to the RAW data, and an SDK, so noise reduction (both pattern and random) could be addressed where it is most easily distinguished. Removing noise after conversion is like trying to remove the chocolate pudding that you accidentally dropped into you chicken soup after you stirred it in, instead of removing the glob with a spoon while it was still intact.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 22 Feb 2006 04:05 GMT >>Anyone know what the typical range of luminance is in natural settings >>around the world? See: Digital Cameras: Counting Photons, Photometry, and Quantum Efficiency http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.photons.and.qe See Table 2 for luminance levels and exposure times of common lighting conditions.
>>If we trust the "Sunny 16" rule, then you have >>ambient light of around 6826 footcandles in bright sunlight. Which [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>sensors that can give us that kind of range? At that point, do you even >>rationalize exposure in the same way? Sixteen stops would be very difficult. Most cameras now have only 12-bit A/D converters so limit to <12 stops. The 1D Mark II camera has very low read noise of ~3.9 electrons and a full well capacity of 79,900 electrons. That is a dynamic range of 79900/3.9= 20,487 = 14.3 stops. To increase to 16 stops, one would need an 18-bit A to D converter and reduce read noise to 1.2 electrons or increase the full well to over 250,000 electrons (not likely, or only likely with much larger pixels). See: Procedures for Evaluating Digital Camera Noise and Full Well Capacities; Canon 1D Mark II Analysis http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-1d2
But it is a rare photograph that would need such dynamic range. Less than 10 stops is more typical, and even 10 stops is usually difficult lighting. Most photographs are much less than that (e.g. that is why slide film with 5 stop range still produces stunning photos). Of course there are exceptions, like sunsets, but even then it is my opinion that current DSLRs are good enough to produce great images (see below).
> I can read high-contrast, large-letter B&W text on my 20D, under-exposed > by 10 stops at ISO 1600, RAW-converted myself by hand, in greyscale. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > noise could be achieved before RAW conversion, I think we'd get a lot > more out of the current technology. You can reduce banding and non uniformities by taking bias frames and flat fields and subtracting the bias and dividing by flats to better calibrate the images. This is routine processing for astrophotos with DSLRs, for example.
> RAW converters, IMO, are generally very careless about the "shadows" > (which may be the highlights in a push). I'm only beginning to crack [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > soup after you stirred it in, instead of removing the glob with a spoon > while it was still intact. You may have seen this already, but if not, it does illustrate what you are saying: Digital Camera Raw Converter Shadow Detail and Image Editor Limitations: Factors in Getting Shadow Detail in Images http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/raw.converter.shadow.detail
Roger
JPS@no.komm - 22 Feb 2006 20:45 GMT In message <43FBE309.5060701@qwest.net>, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <username@qwest.net> wrote:
>You can reduce banding and non uniformities by taking bias >frames and flat fields and subtracting the bias and dividing >by flats to better calibrate the images. This is routine >processing for astrophotos with DSLRs, for example. The horizontal banding in the 20D and 10D RAW data is different every frame, so it has to be removed based on analysis of the frame. The vertical banding, to some degree, seems to repeat in successive frames. The vertical banding has a greater deviation, but has less high frequency content so it does not result in chromatic effects, like the horizontal banding, which is plentiful at the nyquist.
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