I'm having a hard time deciding on these two noise removal programs
because I see + & - for both. I know some of you have a much better eye
than I do, so can you please help me out.
In your opinion, which looks better (noise wise only, I know I blew the
shot).
Option A: http://www.pbase.com/slack/image/56072680
Option B: http://www.pbase.com/slack/image/56072681
And just for reference, here's the orig out of my camera:
http://www.pbase.com/slack/image/56072682
I uploaded full sized pictures, so click on the original button. Then
you can scroll back and forth.
Thanks for any help.
_____
Slack
Paul Furman - 14 Feb 2006 03:54 GMT
> I'm having a hard time deciding on these two noise removal programs
> because I see + & - for both. I know some of you have a much better eye
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I uploaded full sized pictures, so click on the original button. Then
> you can scroll back and forth.
Option B is a much larger file than even the original so it's hard to
tell. B is better because of less jpeg compression. A is smoother but
jpeg compression does that too.
Rudy Benner - 14 Feb 2006 03:58 GMT
> I'm having a hard time deciding on these two noise removal programs
> because I see + & - for both. I know some of you have a much better eye
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> _____
> Slack
I vote for B.
David J Taylor - 14 Feb 2006 10:25 GMT
>> I'm having a hard time deciding on these two noise removal programs
>> because I see + & - for both. I know some of you have a much better
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I vote for B.
Same here - it's sharper. As Paul said though, that may just be a
different JPEG compression.
David
per - 14 Feb 2006 23:58 GMT
I'd say "A" has too much noise reduction, contours get too much smoothed
out.
"B" is the better.
Isn't it possible to tweak the noise reduction action in all of these
programs?
/per
Slack™ - 15 Feb 2006 00:17 GMT
> I'd say "A" has too much noise reduction, contours get too much smoothed
> out.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> /per
>
Yes, you are correct. Maybe I should've elaborated a bit more. I'm
trying to determine whether either program works well enough with the
least amount of tweaking, thereby minimizing my work-flow.
_____
Slack
Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 15 Feb 2006 00:30 GMT
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:17:03 -0800, in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Slack
<"Slack\"@½³.org"> wrote:
>Yes, you are correct. Maybe I should've elaborated a bit more. I'm
>trying to determine whether either program works well enough with the
>least amount of tweaking, thereby minimizing my work-flow.
I think you will find you're not going to get acceptable results without
tweaking, NI allows you to build profiles and have it choose specific
profiles based on the exif info. I'd imagine NN does something similar. But
I don't see how you can account for varying amounts of underexposure and
hence SNR automatically with optimal results.

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Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 15 Feb 2006 00:09 GMT
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 19:30:56 -0800, in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Slack
<"Slack\"@½³.org"> wrote:
>I'm having a hard time deciding on these two noise removal programs
>because I see + & - for both. I know some of you have a much better eye
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>I uploaded full sized pictures, so click on the original button. Then
>you can scroll back and forth.
While you may consider a blind comparison of photos the best way to go
about evaluating the programs, without saying what exactly was done with
each it's impossible to make a fair judgement. All the programs and built
in routines have so many user settings it's quite easy to get differing
results.

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Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet2@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
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Bart van der Wolf - 15 Feb 2006 00:26 GMT
"Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!)" <egruf_usenet2@cox.net> wrote in
message news:m3s4v1l71ct1qhrii7u9s3m3hcejq0n4fl@4ax.com...
SNIP
> While you may consider a blind comparison of photos the best
> way to go about evaluating the programs, without saying what
> exactly was done with each it's impossible to make a fair
> judgement. All the programs and built in routines have so many
> user settings it's quite easy to get differing results.
My sentiments exactly. As a NeatImage user from before NoiseNinja
existed, it seems one of the images was a NI image on 'default', not a
setting I often use.
Bart
Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 15 Feb 2006 00:32 GMT
>"Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!)" <egruf_usenet2@cox.net> wrote in
>message news:m3s4v1l71ct1qhrii7u9s3m3hcejq0n4fl@4ax.com...
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>existed, it seems one of the images was a NI image on 'default', not a
>setting I often use.
Same here. If you subtract the filtered images from the original it is
quite evident the settings are totally different. Overall, and channel by
channel. The spatial frequency setting of the filter is appears to be quite
different between the two.

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Paul Furman - 15 Feb 2006 04:36 GMT
Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) wrote:
> <"Slack\"@½³.org"> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> in routines have so many user settings it's quite easy to get differing
> results.
Also it might be better to test with an image that has some decent
detail to preserve. I just don't see much detail in any of those so A is
better for this shot because it's smoother & there is nothing to lose.
go go dancer - 15 Feb 2006 04:14 GMT
Those pictures are crap! Certainly not anything you'd bother removing
noise from. Get your exposures right before you worry about noise.
Correct exposure will in itself, reduce noise.
Stacey - 17 Feb 2006 01:36 GMT
> Get your exposures right before you worry about noise.
> Correct exposure will in itself, reduce noise.
That's what I thought as well, they are massivley underexposed..

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Stacey
Alan Browne - 19 Feb 2006 20:40 GMT
> Those pictures are crap! Certainly not anything you'd bother removing
> noise from. Get your exposures right before you worry about noise.
> Correct exposure will in itself, reduce noise.
Most noise occurs in the lower zones, so for that purpose teh image is
not a bad test. I would say instead, as in my reply to the OP that he
should have an image that covers a lot of colors and zones -3 to +2.

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cjcampbell - 15 Feb 2006 10:35 GMT
Slack wrote:
> I'm having a hard time deciding on these two noise removal programs
> because I see + & - for both. I know some of you have a much better eye
> than I do, so can you please help me out.
>
> In your opinion, which looks better (noise wise only, I know I blew the
> shot).
I like the original the best. The other two have had almost all texture
removed from them along with the noise.
For what it is worth, I use both Noise Ninja and Neat Image. I like
Neat Image because it seems to do a better job at removing noise, but
it only works on pictures that have a reasonably sized area of a single
color, such as sky. Busy pictures confuse Neat Image. Noise Ninja
allows you to use specific profiles matching camera, ISO, and exposure
time. It can be much more precise than Neat Image, and it works on any
photo.
I have also used several other products, but none of them come close to
these two.
It is common for people who are learning to use noise reduction
programs to overdo it. The only way you can determine which one is
right for you is to experiment -- a lot -- and decide what results you
like the best.
As you have noted, the picture is grossly underexposed and is
red-shifted, a common problem with digital photography. You get green
shifts with over-exposure. Whatever. You are also standing too high
above the duck; you want to get down on the duck's level if you can.
Shoot him straight in the eye. And then crop, just leaving some water
for him to swim into. And don't ever let anyone see a picture like that
again. If the light does not work, it does not work. No picture.
Alan Bremner - 15 Feb 2006 23:57 GMT
> Noise Ninja allows you to use specific profiles matching camera, ISO,
> and exposure time. It can be much more precise than Neat Image,
> and it works on any photo.
NI can also use specific profiles matching similar criteria. Many are
freely available from the NI web site, or users can create their own
specific to their particular camera and/or workflow requirements.
Al

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Alan Browne - 19 Feb 2006 20:37 GMT
> Option A: http://www.pbase.com/slack/image/56072680
>
> Option B: http://www.pbase.com/slack/image/56072681
B looks smoother.
Print a crop from both and let that decide which is better. It could be
that printed that the difference is not even noticeable.
If you're going to compare pre- and post- noise reduction it would be
better to do it on a photo with a full range of color and -3 to +2 zones
included in those zones.

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