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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2006

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Questions for Canon 5D owners/users

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RiceHigh - 13 Feb 2006 06:24 GMT
My new DSLR plan comes closer to reality. I am now taking a closer look
at the 5D. If acquired, I think I shall get together with the 24-105/4L
IS and the 430 flashgun to start my new DSLR system.

Just wish to seek assistance from you 5D guys on the following:-

1. Any *real* sample photos to share? Any 5D *user* galleries? (your
own or simply providing URLs ot those are just fine);

2. Have you ever wrongly chosen/used an unwanted ISO speed because of
there is no ISO displayed all the time neither in the viewfinder nor in
the monochrome LCD?

3. How about the wide angle image corner performance with the 24-105L,
especially at wide opened at f/4 at 24mm?

4. Is the combo (5D + 24-105L) too heavy for casual family shootings?
Or, maybe the set will be even heavier with the 430 flashgun plus the
spare battery pack too. Well, we all know that the 5D don't have the
handy built-in flash :-( for its professional status as ranked by Canon
:)

5. Anything I should note before I get this (seems to be) wonderful
piece of DSLR "Kit"?

Any comments and inputs will be greatly appreciated!! Thanks in advance
very much for any help!

Regards,
RiceHigh
http://www.geocities.com/ricehigh
Skip M - 13 Feb 2006 13:18 GMT
> My new DSLR plan comes closer to reality. I am now taking a closer look
> at the 5D. If acquired, I think I shall get together with the 24-105/4L
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> 1. Any *real* sample photos to share? Any 5D *user* galleries? (your
> own or simply providing URLs ot those are just fine);

http://www.pbase.com/skipm/people
http://www.pbase.com/skipm/lenstests
The latter gallery consists of images meant to be as difficult for the
camera/lens combos to handle as I could make it that day.  Real world
shooting hasn't duplicated some of the softness/light fall of I got on these
images.

> 2. Have you ever wrongly chosen/used an unwanted ISO speed because of
> there is no ISO displayed all the time neither in the viewfinder nor in
> the monochrome LCD?

No.  Since the ISO comes up when it's being changed, that's rarely an issue.

> 3. How about the wide angle image corner performance with the 24-105L,
> especially at wide opened at f/4 at 24mm?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> handy built-in flash :-( for its professional status as ranked by Canon
> :)

I can't comment on either issue, since I don't have that lens, but as far as
the built in flash, that has its limitations, too, like being blocked by
large diameter lenses and lens hoods, and a very limited range (guide number
of 12 vs 43 for the 430.)

The camera does impress me as being a bit on the overkill side for casual
family "shootings."  For more casual work that, for some reason requirse and
SLR, I take along my 20D.  But, to each their own.
Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

RiceHigh - 14 Feb 2006 06:33 GMT
Thanks a lot for your sample galleries. To me the wide angle
performance of the 5D with L lenses are acceptable, e.g. 16-35 at 16
and 24-70 at 24, although some blur and softness can be seen when
viewed 100%. For a high pixel count of the 5D, viewing 100% really
means a very large picture, though. When viewed at 70%, which is
roughtly equivalent to 100% at 6M, it blows my 6M Pentax DSLRs away
easily.

RiceHigh
http://www.geocities.com/ricehigh
go go dancer - 15 Feb 2006 04:21 GMT
I thought this discussion was about 5D canon DSLRs. Up to the point
where you said "built in flash" I thought you were talking about a 5D
too. It seems not. 5Ds don't have any built in flash. Your comment
about lenses blocking the flash must relate to something else?

Maddy.
Skip M - 15 Feb 2006 05:42 GMT
>I thought this discussion was about 5D canon DSLRs. Up to the point
> where you said "built in flash" I thought you were talking about a 5D
> too. It seems not. 5Ds don't have any built in flash. Your comment
> about lenses blocking the flash must relate to something else?
>
> Maddy.

No, I was commenting that the lack of a built in flash is over-emphasized,
since it is blocked by lenses of the diameter that would most often be used
on a 5D.

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

John Meyer - 13 Feb 2006 16:17 GMT
If RiceHigh actually goes through with this plan, you will soon be
treated to endless tomes on Canon quality issues, badly photographed
test charts, and lengthy letters to the CEO of Canon. You will not be
treated to photos of living beings, objects that exist in nature, or
anything else. But he will eventually move to Nikon....

> My new DSLR plan comes closer to reality. I am now taking a closer look
> at the 5D. If acquired, I think I shall get together with the 24-105/4L
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> RiceHigh
> http://www.geocities.com/ricehigh

Signature

One is always considered mad when one perfects something that others can
not grasp. - Ed Wood

RiceHigh - 14 Feb 2006 06:39 GMT
Your Sig quote say it all for what I ought to reply to your
prediction:-  "One is always considered mad when one perfects something
that others can
not grasp."

You should note again I encounter NO "quality" issue with ALL of my
film Pentax FA lenses and my Pentax MZ SLR bodies. The problems only
occurred with *ist D, *ist DS and the digital DA lenses.

I am sure that you haven't read my letter you mentioned in full, here
it is:-
http://www.geocities.com/ricehigh/A_Letter_to_the_CEO_of_Pentax_Corporation.html

(You may not bother to read btw, I post the link here just for others'
reference)

RiceHigh
http://www.geocities.com/ricehigh
Paul Furman - 13 Feb 2006 18:29 GMT
> 2. Have you ever wrongly chosen/used an unwanted ISO speed because of
> there is no ISO displayed all the time neither in the viewfinder nor in
> the monochrome LCD?

That drives me nuts on my Nikon D70.
RiceHigh - 14 Feb 2006 06:39 GMT
Oh, too bad :-(
Kennedy McEwen - 13 Feb 2006 22:55 GMT
>Just wish to seek assistance from you 5D guys on the following:-
>
>1. Any *real* sample photos to share? Any 5D *user* galleries? (your
>own or simply providing URLs ot those are just fine);

Over a dozen available in full resolution jpg format at:
http://www.dpreview.com/gallery/canoneos5d_samples/

>2. Have you ever wrongly chosen/used an unwanted ISO speed because of
>there is no ISO displayed all the time neither in the viewfinder nor in
>the monochrome LCD?

No - the screen displays both shutter speed and aperture and if that in
combination with the subject isn't enough to clue you in that the
selected ISO is not close to your intended speed then this is probably
to complex a camera for you in any case.  Most folk with a little
practice can guess exposure to at least a stop accuracy - and there
isn't much difference in the performance of the 5D if the ISO is out by
less than that.

>3. How about the wide angle image corner performance with the 24-105L,
>especially at wide opened at f/4 at 24mm?

Surprisingly sharp - though obviously not as good as a 24mm prime. There
is a little barrel distortion throughout the range with this lens but,
unless you have straight objects (eg. horizon or verticals) close to the
frame edge you won't notice it.  Actual geometric distortion is a lot
less than the 24mm Olympus OM lens I have - I found all of the OM wides
tended to make objects close to the side appear wider than they really
were.  None of that with this lens.

>4. Is the combo (5D + 24-105L) too heavy for casual family shootings?

Depends on what you are used to.  Its a chunky bit of glass, no doubt
about it, but the 105mm reach makes it less obtrusive than it could be.
A small prime, such as the 35mm or even a cheap 50mm would be a lot more
discrete for that type of application.  And a P&S even more so.

>Or, maybe the set will be even heavier with the 430 flashgun plus the
>spare battery pack too.

Again, a fast 50mm means you will need the flash even less.  I use the
580EX and that doesn't disturb the balance of the 24-105L very much.

>5. Anything I should note before I get this (seems to be) wonderful
>piece of DSLR "Kit"?

Good:
Noise is exceptional.  I estimate I get similar noise at ISO 1600 as I
used to achieve on ISO 50 Velvia film.

Initially irritating:
The flash system takes a bit of getting used to unless you are familiar
with the Canon way of doing things already - conventional TTL metered
flash requires the camera to be set to *manual* mode, otherwise it
defaults to fill flash.

Annoying:
Shutter and mirror damping quite poor - despite the heavier body, a long
lens may require a tripod upgrade for moderate shutter speeds.

Concerning:
Reports of dust leaking in behind the non-user removable AF indicator
plate that sits over the interchangeable focus screen, which is
virtually immovable.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=16928769

Haven't experienced anything worse than standard SLR problems myself yet
(an occasional air blast inside has kept mine clean for a couple of
months now) but there are a *LOT* of reports about it on the net, and
Canon are apparently "investigating".
Signature

Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
Python Philosophers         (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)

RiceHigh - 14 Feb 2006 06:50 GMT
Thanks a lot for your detailed reply! They are very useful. :-)

Regarding the shutter and mirror damping, I hope it would be better
such that the IS is not needed to compensate for the vibration which
the camera itself creates :-( Could you tell me more on actually how
bad you experienced with this? Is the problem serious enough or just
things are just not as good (as 1Ds or 1D etc.)?

The absence of ISO indication is not ideal but I guess I can live with
it.

For Dpreview samples, I am not a believer for Phil Askey, frankly
speaking. Just becoz he managed to take excellent sample shots with
whatever camera he had!

RiceHigh
http://www.geocities.com/ricehigh
Kennedy McEwen - 14 Feb 2006 09:03 GMT
>Thanks a lot for your detailed reply! They are very useful. :-)
>
>Regarding the shutter and mirror damping, I hope it would be better
>such that the IS is not needed to compensate for the vibration which
>the camera itself creates :-( Could you tell me more on actually how
>bad you experienced with this?

This was with a very long (>1000mm) manual focus lens taking some photos
of the moon with camera and lens mounted on a tripod.  This was the same
configuration as I had shot similar images a few years ago on a film
camera - exactly the same lens mounted on the Canon with an adapter.
According to my previous notes, I hadn't even used mirror lockup on the
film camera, but even with mirror lock on the D5 there was very visible
camera movement in the final images.

It isn't anything I have noticed with more conventional focal lengths or
hand held.

> Is the problem serious enough or just
>things are just not as good (as 1Ds or 1D etc.)?

No idea - I haven't used those in similar situations.

>The absence of ISO indication is not ideal but I guess I can live with
>it.
>
>For Dpreview samples, I am not a believer for Phil Askey, frankly
>speaking. Just becoz he managed to take excellent sample shots with
>whatever camera he had!

The London venues look pretty similar to what I have.
Signature

Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
Python Philosophers         (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)

Matt Clara - 14 Feb 2006 15:19 GMT
> Good:
> Noise is exceptional.  I estimate I get similar noise at ISO 1600 as I
> used to achieve on ISO 50 Velvia film.

Holy sh.t!  I'm surprised that Canon isn't touting such incredible noise
control.  Velvia ISO 50?  It's noise is almost non-existent!
Wow!

Signature

Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Kennedy McEwen - 14 Feb 2006 22:37 GMT
>> Good:
>> Noise is exceptional.  I estimate I get similar noise at ISO 1600 as I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>control.  Velvia ISO 50?  It's noise is almost non-existent!
>Wow!

Its a bit like remembering the 60's - if you haven't seen the noise on
Velvia then you haven't really used it!  ;-)

After I posted this subjective conclusion in another thread someone
directed me to Roger Clarke's already existing chart which shows
objectively and quantitatively how close they are for the 1D Mk. II.  I
suspect that the 5D is similar, if not better.

http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.signal.to.noise/digital-s-to-n
.v1.gif
Signature

Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
Python Philosophers         (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)

Matt Clara - 16 Feb 2006 14:35 GMT
> >> Good:
> >> Noise is exceptional.  I estimate I get similar noise at ISO 1600 as I
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.signal.to.noise/digital-s-to-n
> .v1.gif

I use Velvia--just scanned some medium format on my 8000ED in fact, and
yeah, there's grain there, but I'm calling you on your claim that the Canon
1600 iso is equivalent to Velvia 50's grain.  That's a load of nonsense.
Though there is grain in velvia, it's among the finest of any slide film and
is finer than any negative film except for a few technical films, and those
are black and white films.  To claim that Canon's noise at ISO 1600 is lower
than every negative film produced today (except those tech films), is pure
poppycock.  You should keep your claims to a more realistic level.  If you'd
said ISO 200, I wouldn't be here calling you on it.

And I've heard Roger Clark make other specious claims as well--just because
he drew up a chart doesn't mean a thing, other than he drew up a chart.

Finally, if it really is better at ISO 1600 (or even 800, or 400), why isn't
Canon all over the map with such a claim?  Really, that's quite a
significant feat.

Signature

Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Philip Homburg - 16 Feb 2006 17:50 GMT
>I use Velvia--just scanned some medium format on my 8000ED in fact, and
>yeah, there's grain there, but I'm calling you on your claim that the Canon
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>And I've heard Roger Clark make other specious claims as well--just because
>he drew up a chart doesn't mean a thing, other than he drew up a chart.

What seems very sloppy in
<http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.signal.to.noise/>
is that absolutely no details are given about the scanning process.

Given that he compares Velvia to a 8 Mpixel 1D mk II, it is only fair to Velvia
to compare to a high quality 8 Mpixel drumscan (or equivalent).

Signature

That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

go go dancer - 20 Feb 2006 22:21 GMT
The basic problem with Rodger Clark's site is that it seeks to compare
film which when printed from an optical enlarger, produces
"photographs" the likes of which digital cameras have yet to equal
...by lowering the film's advantages to the level of a digital image.
This is an entirely wrong process which will ovbiously show digital to
have an advantage.

What that advantage is in real terms of a "photograph", is never
discussed or comtemplated. A test which would be fair to film, would be
to make a 4000 DPI transparency and print that alongside a real, film
trannie. That would be fair to the film and not the digital. No digital
fanatic will entertain such a test because they know it would make the
digital image from their $10,000 camera look terrible. Isn't this just
what Clark has done to film?
Paul Furman - 20 Feb 2006 22:39 GMT
> The basic problem with Rodger Clark's site is that it seeks to compare
> film which when printed from an optical enlarger, produces
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> digital image from their $10,000 camera look terrible. Isn't this just
> what Clark has done to film?

But (most?) picky pros these days don't print with an enlarger, they scan.
Skip M - 21 Feb 2006 03:50 GMT
> The basic problem with Rodger Clark's site is that it seeks to compare
> film which when printed from an optical enlarger, produces
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> digital image from their $10,000 camera look terrible. Isn't this just
> what Clark has done to film?

Roger does not do all of his comparisons with scanned film.  He compares the
negatives' theoretical resolution with that of the sensors, not the scanned
image vs. the digital image.
And not only have digital cameras equaled the film print from an enlarger,
they has, in some cases, exceeded it.  We were showing at a bridal fair a
few months ago when another exhibiting photographer came over to our booth
and, after looking over our 12x18 and 16x20 images, said, slightly
condescendingly, "how nice" it was to see someone still shooting medium
format film.  He had pretty much given up on 35mm film and started using a
D70s, but, still it was nice to see people still using the old methods.  He
looked a little pale when my wife, very sweetly, said, "Oh, no, those are
from our 5Ds..."
If our Canon 5D cameras can fool another photographer, think about the 16mp
1Ds mkII...
A truly fair comparison would be to print from the native source, not jimmy
it around to give film an advantage.  Print a 16x20 from a 1Ds mkII and an R
or C print from Ektachrome 100, both shot with the same Canon glass.  No
scan, no interneg, just direct from both sources.
Heck, I'd put my 5D up against that...

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Philip Homburg - 21 Feb 2006 10:20 GMT
>A truly fair comparison would be to print from the native source, not jimmy
>it around to give film an advantage.  Print a 16x20 from a 1Ds mkII and an R
>or C print from Ektachrome 100, both shot with the same Canon glass.  No
>scan, no interneg, just direct from both sources.
>Heck, I'd put my 5D up against that...

There is no reason to assume that a direct enlargement from 35mm film
would be better than digitally printing a drum scanned version.

It is possible that optical enlargements are better, but I never saw any
proof of that. I do know that sharpening scans is much easier than
sharpening 35mm prints. So for subjects that are supposed to be sharp,
direct enlargements put film at a disadvantage.

Signature

That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

Skip M - 22 Feb 2006 00:17 GMT
>>A truly fair comparison would be to print from the native source, not
>>jimmy
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> sharpening 35mm prints. So for subjects that are supposed to be sharp,
> direct enlargements put film at a disadvantage.

True, but it removes the "but it's really just a digital image" statement
from the discussion.  I've seen high quality drum scans that far exceeded
anything I could ever produce in the darkroom, that's for sure!

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Philip Homburg - 22 Feb 2006 08:40 GMT
>True, but it removes the "but it's really just a digital image" statement
>from the discussion.  

I don't care about the "but it's really just a digital image" people.
Other than some high-end B/W, the best way to process an image these days
is using digital.

There is however, a bit of truth in that statement. An image does look
different on a screen than it looks in print. For high resolution images,
it is prints that we care about. So any real world quantative approach
would have to take the effects of printing into account.

Signature

That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

Skip M - 22 Feb 2006 12:06 GMT
>>True, but it removes the "but it's really just a digital image" statement
>>from the discussion.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> it is prints that we care about. So any real world quantative approach
> would have to take the effects of printing into account.

Frankly, if I had realized that it was our buddy, Dougie from Down Under, I
wouldn't even have bothered to reply.
But I feel, as you do, that a print from both sources is the only way to
compare, since that is the final product for me.  After all, if all you're
going to do is display on the internet, or email the images, 8-16 megapixels
is so much overkill as to beggar the term...

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

mark.thomas.7@gmail.com - 21 Feb 2006 11:39 GMT
>The basic problem with Rodger Clark's site is that it seeks to compare
>film which when printed from an optical enlarger, produces
>"photographs" the likes of which digital cameras have yet to equal
>...by lowering the film's advantages to the level of a digital image.

Hi, DOUGLAS!!

Well, for a start, you clearly haven't investigated much of Roger's
site.

And, Douglas, the basic problem is that people like you (who thinks the
bloody awful image hung in the Redland Times office - yes, I've seen it
too, and it is a *joke*), with little useful experience in the field,
make wild claims about the 'huge' differences between a 4000ppi scan of
35mm film and what can be done via a purely optical process.

But let's be fair - yes, there *is* a bit more to drag out of
high-quality film than a 4000 ppi scanner can grab (and Roger covers
this topic quite well, so you clearly haven't examined his work in any
detail).  But it is normally so far down and buried in film grain, that
for all but the best fine-grained color transparency film (and of
course black and white) it is almost a lost cause.  By the way, do you
shoot weddings on Provia or Velvia?  (Actually, having seen Douglas'
stuff, I think he might...)

And then once you add on the problems, effort and expense of having an
optical/chemical system of the necessary quality to actually utilise
that extra, largely theoretical, resolution, it is little wonder no-one
but the technically-challenged ostriches continue with this mantra.

This is, of course, the same Douglas who has now dumped digital because
it wasn't performing well enough, and who has *endless* problems with
equipment letting him down and giving him terrible results.  Now, what
was the common factor in all those failures and problems, with all
those different cameras/lenses....?  (O:

Real photographers don't blame their equipment, and they know the
limits of film and digital.  If you are talking about anything *other*
than fine grained transparency film or black and white, then a 4000 ppi
scan isn't that far short of the medium's limits.  It takes an
exceptional image on exceptional film to justify an 8000-12000 ppi drum
scan.  Can you point to any professional who suggests that optical
enlarging is better than drum scanning..?  Do *you* suggest that?

Experienced and knowledgable photographers (ie not you) understand that
once you start talking about poster size enlargements and *truly sharp
detail*, that 35mm film is not the format of choice in the first place.
Why do you think that (wedding/portrait) photographers in the big-end
of town use either MF, or if they do go digital, it's the likes of the
1DSII?  Because they like carrying more weight?

And Douglas, some of us have *standards* - we know you CAN'T
manufacture real detail to make up for insufficient resolution, no
matter how many times you post that claim!  Eg, here:

http://tinyurl.com/fngwa
Douglas' title - "Enlarged digital images with more detail than the
original"

http://tinyurl.com/fjske
Douglas' title - "Enlarging Digital images - proof it works"

(If you visit those threads, don't bother visiting Dougie's links -
he's pulled all the flawed 'evidence' long ago.)

And stop posting as "go go dancer".  You've been outed.
RiceHigh - 21 Feb 2006 12:21 GMT
I haven't read through all the links provided. But I suspect what have
been discussed here recently is all about the workflow process. Indeed,
the workflow can be consisted of a number of stages which can be purely
digital or analog or a mixture of both. I think no matter what they
are, they can be good or not depending on the effectiveness of the
combination, equipment used in each step, techniques applied, and the
requirements of the final products (user/client requirements afterall).

My two cents.

Cheers,
RiceHigh
http://www.geocities.com/ricehigh
Skip M - 22 Feb 2006 00:19 GMT
> >The basic problem with Rodger Clark's site is that it seeks to compare
>>film which when printed from an optical enlarger, produces
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Well, for a start, you clearly haven't investigated much of Roger's
> site.

I thought that sounded like him...

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Kennedy McEwen - 16 Feb 2006 21:18 GMT
>> >> Good:
>> >> Noise is exceptional.  I estimate I get similar noise at ISO 1600 as I
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>yeah, there's grain there, but I'm calling you on your claim that the Canon
>1600 iso is equivalent to Velvia 50's grain.  That's a load of nonsense.

I use Velvia as well, and have done regularly for years, so I am pretty
sure of my statement too - and my estimate is based on scanning 35mm
Velvia on an LS-4000.  BTW, I didn't say it was "equivalent", I said it
was similar, and it is.  It has a different spatial characteristic,
naturally, but the amplitude is pretty similar to what I have seen
shooting at ISO 1600 on the 5D.

The largest prints I ever made from Velvia 35mmscans were about 20x16",
beyond which grain was very clearly visible, particularly in uniform
areas like sky etc.  I recently made some 33x22" prints from the Canon
5D at ISO-400 which show no visible noise whatsoever.  There is no way
that I would ever take 35mm Velvia up to that size for close viewing
without grain being objectionable.  At ISO 1600, the noise looks similar
to Velvia at a 20 x 16" print size.

Roger's independent and quantitative comparison suggests that subjective
assessment is not as wide of the mark as your claim of "nonsense" is.
Indeed it shows that the grain in Velvia at some densities is worse than
the noise from the Canon 1D-II, whilst at others it is better.

>Though there is grain in velvia, it's among the finest of any slide film and
>is finer than any negative film except for a few technical films, and those
>are black and white films.

I agree with that - and, together with its resolution, is one of the
reasons I use it.

>  To claim that Canon's noise at ISO 1600 is lower
>than every negative film produced today (except those tech films), is pure
>poppycock.  You should keep your claims to a more realistic level.

I haven't claimed it is lower, do I need to tell you a million times to
stop exaggerating!

> If you'd
>said ISO 200, I wouldn't be here calling you on it.

If it only was similar at ISO200 I would have said so.  The noise on the
5D is almost imperceptible at ISO200 on typical shutter speeds, and
consequently is far lower than the grain contrast on Velvia.

>And I've heard Roger Clark make other specious claims as well--just because
>he drew up a chart doesn't mean a thing, other than he drew up a chart.

The issue is not that he "drew up" a chart, but that he tabulated the
data collected in a systematic manner which provided objective
confirmation of my own independent subjective assessment.

>Finally, if it really is better at ISO 1600 (or even 800, or 400), why isn't
>Canon all over the map with such a claim?  Really, that's quite a
>significant feat.

Only if you think it is.  I could also ask why Canon aren't "all over
the map" with a claim of being better than Velvia at ISO 200, or 400. It
isn't quite as big an issue as you think.
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Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
Python Philosophers         (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)

Simon Stanmore - 13 Feb 2006 23:40 GMT
Rice, every one of the questions you ask suggests you're going OTT by
considering a 5D. If money's no issue then go for it and be happy. If not,
then don't worry, a 5D won't get you any better photo's than a 20D, D70, any
other decent DSLR
--
Simon
http://www.pbase.com/stanmore
RiceHigh - 14 Feb 2006 06:52 GMT
Hi,

Sorry, what's meant by "OTT"?
arcade@wizmail.net - 14 Feb 2006 20:11 GMT
> Hi,
>
> Sorry, what's meant by "OTT"?

"Over The Top" I believe.

For what you're looking to use it for, you don't necessarily need a 5D
and would be fine with any SLR and save the money.
 
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