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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2006Looking for a D200
Have been a photographer for almost 40 years. Time has come to put away my Canon FD equipment (will never put away my Leicas) and get a digital SLR. So along comes the Nikon D200, sounds great, a few teething problems but all in all the right package at the right price. But can you buy one well no. B&H won't even talk to you about the camera. My local store (now a Ritz, how depressing)says they have seen two since November. There are a few on EBay, but that is such a hassle. Luckily prices there are getting more realistic. My questions are: How do a few EBay stores get stock when the traditional outlets are starved? How can Nikon bring out a product they seem not to have produced in sufficient quanity? Could go Canon but I'm old school and want a fast 35 (equiv) on my camera. Nikons 24 f2 can be had for under $500, while Canon's 24 f1.4 is well over a thousand. Just frustrated. Tom > Could go Canon but I'm old school and want a fast 35 (equiv) > on my camera. Nikons 24 f2 can be had for under $500, while Canon's 24 > f1.4 is well over a thousand. Don't you already _own_ appropriate Canon lenses ? -Michael I have Canon FD lenses. No I' am depending on how you lookat it screwed or totally free. I use a Fuji S1 at work with Nikon lenses, the view finder on Fujis (at least S1 and S2 is abismal). Tom > I have Canon FD lenses. No I' am depending on how you lookat it screwed > or totally free. > I use a Fuji S1 at work with Nikon lenses, the view finder on Fujis (at > least S1 and S2 is abismal). the d2x is large, bright, and sharp. > Tom > > I have Canon FD lenses. No I' am depending on how you lookat it screwed > > or totally free. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > Tom The new D200 is supposedly pretty good, too, with a .94 magnifcation factor.  SignatureRegards, Matt Clara www.mattclara.com Just a little more, I don't mind backorders, as long as they end. One month maybe two is enough. My Ritz dealer said if I ordered it yesterday, I could expect it by Christmas and they wanted half down. No way I'm tying up my money for that long, and no guarantees I would ever get the camera. Beginning to think this is the Walmartification of camera sales. Tom again Buy from DigitalRev in Hong kong, Excellent price and rapid service. Guaruntees as normal. > Just a little more, I don't mind backorders, as long as they end. One > month maybe two is enough. My Ritz dealer said if I ordered it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Tom again > Just a little more, I don't mind backorders, as long as they end. One > month maybe two is enough. My Ritz dealer said if I ordered it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Tom again So I live in Calif, my wife, for Xmas ordered one from Sarbers camera here in Oakland, Sarbers is a relatively small concern with three brick and mortar stores. I doubt they do as much annual business as B and H or some of the larger online shops. That being said, the camera was ordered at the beginning of Dec, I finally received one this tuesday past. I woudl expect that over time this delay is reduced.... > Have been a photographer for almost 40 years. Time has come to put away > my Canon FD equipment (will never put away my Leicas) and get a digital [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > on my camera. Nikons 24 f2 can be had for under $500, while Canon's 24 > f1.4 is well over a thousand. Just frustrated. Couple of things, First, the D200 has had a banding issue that Nikon recently released a KB article about. It may be that Nikon knew about this issue and slowed or halted production until the issue was resolved. It seem as if they can adjust the camera's that have made it to the market so I assume there is some sort of fix. Anyway, the acknowledgement of the issue by Nikon along with a fix may indicate that Nikon is once again ready to ramp up production. Second, why switch from Canon to Nikon? We're about to see new releases from Canon in the next couple of weeks which should be in par with the D200 and you are at least already familiar with Canon gear. I understand the issue with lens cost but there are alternatives from Sigma and other lens manufactures. I've held and played with the D200 and It's a really nice camera but I think if I were you I'd wait for the new canon cameras and then choose which is the right camera to buy. JMHO SignatureRob "A disturbing new study finds that studies are disturbing" Again, I have Canon FD so I have to go new. I've used a 20D, but only for an evening. I have held the D200 and it just seemed right. Sigma has a few good lenses but the last one I bought took 3 trys to get one of acceptable sharpness, and that one broke when it was hit by a falling light stand (28-70 f2.8 Sigma high end). Tom > Again, I have Canon FD so I have to go new. I've used a 20D, but only > for an evening. I have held the D200 and it just seemed right. Sigma > has a few good lenses but the last one I bought took 3 trys to get one > of acceptable sharpness, and that one broke when it was hit by a > falling light stand (28-70 f2.8 Sigma high end). Yes I realize you FD stuff won't work with EF mount camera's but that wasn't really my point. The D200 is a really nice camera as long as Nikon has it's issues worked out. I prefer it's control locations and button size over my 20D but the my 20D's high ISO performance is better then the samples I've seen from the D200 and in my mind the image quality is most important. As to lens quality, I've stuck with Canon and bit the bullet on price. If that's not an option then more power to ya with the D200 but the for the cost of a D200 and a $500 Nikkor lens, you could get the 20D and have $1000 for a canon lens. The EF 24mm f/1.4L is only about $120 more. Lastly, like I said before, if I were you I'd wait to see what Canon offers at the end of Feb before I decided anything anyway. The 20D replacement may be a better fit then the D200, then again it may not. Worth the wait as far as I'm concerned. SignatureRob "A disturbing new study finds that studies are disturbing" >> Again, I have Canon FD so I have to go new. I've used a 20D, but only >> for an evening. I have held the D200 and it just seemed right. Sigma [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > my 20D's high ISO performance is better then the samples I've seen from > the D200 and in my mind the image quality is most important. Here are some interesting comparisons between the D200, the 20D, the 5D and others. They take forever to load and they are in Chinese, but are worth the time and the pictures are self-explanatory. http://www.potatobear.com/ND200/D200G.htm Toby. >>> Again, I have Canon FD so I have to go new. I've used a 20D, but only >>> for an evening. I have held the D200 and it just seemed right. Sigma [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > http://www.potatobear.com/ND200/D200G.htm I don't usualy get into these mine is better then you're conversations but I've seen these comparison before and they're usually very unfair. First the D200 has more pixels so I'd expect it to be better detail and second, a great deal depends on the lens used. If I wanted to do a comparison and make the 20D come out the best, I could just use a top notch lens with it and use a mediocre lens on the D200. Hell I can get the same color, contrast, and sharpness differences by just swapping my 17-40L with my 18-55 kit lens on my 20D. What I'm talking about is noise levels from the real world samples I've seen. The Nikon still seems noisier then the Canon (putting aside the banding issue.) Now maybe I've seen bad examples from the D200; I just can't say. I take a lot of non flash, high ISO shots (night sport shooting and theater) and I don't want to deal with noise. All that said, I'd kill for the D200's ergonomics and larger LCD. And the Nikon certainly feels better then my 20D. But I've gotten used to the 20D control locations and feeling good isn't better then looking good. Lastly, the D200 is a great camera and if I were starting from scratch w/o a new canon on the horizon I most likely would buy the D200. The only thing it's missing IMO that would make it perfect is a split prism focus screen and better noise reduction. If it had that I might even think of jumping ship. SignatureRob "A disturbing new study finds that studies are disturbing" > >>> Again, I have Canon FD so I have to go new. I've used a 20D, but only > >>> for an evening. I have held the D200 and it just seemed right. Sigma [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I don't usualy get into these mine is better then you're conversations but > I've seen these comparison before and they're usually very unfair. I don't know, Robert, you say you don't get into this is better than that, but, reading your posts, there's an obvious Canon bias, which is fine, but don't go fooling yourself about it. SignatureRegards, Matt Clara www.mattclara.com >> >>> Again, I have Canon FD so I have to go new. I've used a 20D, but only >> >>> for an evening. I have held the D200 and it just seemed right. Sigma [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > but, reading your posts, there's an obvious Canon bias, which is fine, but > don't go fooling yourself about it. Well of course there's a Canon bias... I own Canon equipment. But if you read my last post again you'll see that I would buy the D200 over 20D if I was starting from scratch. No one is fooling anyone here. Fact is both systems take excellent photos and if you're willing to spend the money you can't go wrong either way which is why I find most of these "mine is better then yours" threads ridiculous. The OP would do well with Nikon or Canon but IMHO he'd be a smarter consumer if he waited to see what Canon had to offer before he jumped on the Nikon wagon. If after the new Canon comes out and he still likes the Nikon then more power to him. Either way he'll get a great camera SignatureRob "A disturbing new study finds that studies are disturbing" I don't think in the real world that the differences would be noticeable without a magnifying glass. My sister-in-law is a professional photographer, and she is very happy with the results of her 20D. And if you have a look at the D200 vs 5D you'll see that quality is all relative. I am happy with the D200 ergonomics, but at the end of the day it boils down to whether you get the shot or not. Toby >>>> Again, I have Canon FD so I have to go new. I've used a 20D, but only >>>> for an evening. I have held the D200 and it just seemed right. Sigma [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > screen and better noise reduction. If it had that I might even think of > jumping ship. >I don't think in the real world that the differences would be noticeable >without a magnifying glass. My sister-in-law is a professional [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I am happy with the D200 ergonomics, but at the end of the day it boils > down to whether you get the shot or not. You see this is why these conversation are pointless. I have cousin who shoots Nikon professionally and loves his D200. The results I've seen are great. I have an uncle who shoot Canon professionally and his images are equally as great. Both make a great living with their chosen manufacture. Both produce fabulous photographs. Obviously, both cameras do well enough for them to make a living. I shoot Canon. Why? Because my wife has shot canon film for years and we want to share equipment. IMO I didn't give up anything in quality by choosing Canon and in the long run both my wife and I save money on "stuff". SignatureRob "A disturbing new study finds that studies are disturbing" >>I don't think in the real world that the differences would be noticeable >>without a magnifying glass. My sister-in-law is a professional [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > choosing Canon and in the long run both my wife and I save money on > "stuff". Heheh, that's pretty much the reason we shoot with Canon gear, too. She had an Elan II, so when I finally made the move to AF, I went with an A2. It makes sense to stick with gear within a family, it cuts down on the lens and flash inventory. SignatureSkip Middleton http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com > Here are some interesting comparisons between the D200, the 20D, the 5D and > others. They take forever to load and they are in Chinese, but are worth the > time and the pictures are self-explanatory. > http://www.potatobear.com/ND200/D200G.htm Yes, the 200D images look sharper, at first glance, and have more saturation and probably a different white point, too. The explanation is that the 20D images are less sharpened and have not had their contrast blown to the max. In the one-but-last image pair (closeup version), you can see how the 200D blacks out most of the hair, while the 20D shows a lot more detail ... at much less noise. In the two-but-last image pair (closeup version), you see very hard noise in the hair --- it looks badly oversharpended and overcontrasted --- and funky red/green/yellow reflexes all over the place (probably photographer error). In the three-but-last image pair (closeup version), observe the hair going from shoulder to ear. Even the hair hanging over the shoulder looks badly artificial in the 200D. Ok, I am a 20D owner and reasonably happy, and I don't know anything about the 200D. From these examples I can merely say: - If you sharpen 200D images and give them a strong contrast, the noise and dark parts look bad - If you give the 20D images a touch of sharpening, say about radius 5, 0.5, you get similar sharpness. - I guess with some white balance and curves you can get them as identical as possible, maybe differing in noise, though. - The test is completely without value, since it is in no way --- at least none I can read --- describing what is being done. (Tripod? Focussing how? Changing test object --- observe some hair in details, Camera settings? post shooting handing --- were that straight JPEGs or have they been changed in e.g. photoshop, or maybe they were shot raw? etc.) -Wolfgang >> Here are some interesting comparisons between the D200, the 20D, the 5D >> and [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > were that straight JPEGs or have they been changed in e.g. > photoshop, or maybe they were shot raw? etc.) Actually I think that the 20D has more sharpening applied than the D200--on other sites you'll always see some whitle haloing at edges on the 20D pix--not that it really makes much difference. Tests have shown, however, that the D200 resolves 2400 lines as compared to the 2200 of the 20D--big deal... Toby > "Wolfgang Weisselberg" <ozcvgtt02@sneakemail.com> wrote in message [...] > Actually I think that the 20D has more sharpening applied than the D200--on > other sites you'll always see some whitle haloing at edges on the 20D > pix-- Again, that probably depends a lot on settings, postprocessing, magnification ... :-) > not that it really makes much difference. Tests have shown, however, > that the D200 resolves 2400 lines as compared to the 2200 of the 20D--big > deal... Exactly. 9% increase is measurable, but not really noticable. -Wolfgang > Again, I have Canon FD so I have to go new. I've used a 20D, but only > for an evening. I have held the D200 and it just seemed right. Sigma > has a few good lenses but the last one I bought took 3 trys to get one > of acceptable sharpness, and that one broke when it was hit by a > falling light stand (28-70 f2.8 Sigma high end). I ordred my D200 on Dec. 18th and got it about a month later. I played with a 20D and like the D200 much better for a number of reasons. One issue for me is the fact that all manual Nikon Ai lenses can be used. In addition I use a number of strange beasts such as a kaleidoscope and Olympus super-macro lenses and homebrew soft focus lenses and all meter just excellently with the D200. Another thing about the D200 is the excellent ergonomic design--all the controls are where you need them when you need them. I was up and running in an hour, with the camera feeling natural from the beginning. A great camera for grabs. OTOH if you are starting out fresh you should wait about another month and see what Canon introduces--rumor has it that they will replace the 20D. When I bought the body I sprung for the Sigma 10-20. I had read some reports and was a bit doubtful, but it turns out to be a world-class lens. Sharp from edge to edge--and very resistant to flare. Even shooting full into the sun the contrast is excellent and the flare is limited to a single comet. The main issue with this lens seems to be light falloff at the edges, but I have not found this to be a problem. One stop down and it is already negligible, and at full aperture it is visible but gradual and smooth, so it really isn't too bothersome (for me at least). I've had a number of Sigmas in the past with various shortcomings--a 70-210 with iffy contrast, a 14 that was a disaster (terrible flare, yellow cast, extreme edge vignetting until f8), and have played with a 28-70 that was OK but not great. Build quality tended to be mediocre in all these lenses, but I am very impressed with this 10-20 in all aspects--including the HSM focusing (which is admittedly easier in a wide lens). Worth a good look if you are looking for extreme wide. Toby > Second, why switch from Canon to Nikon? We're about to see new releases > from Canon in the next couple of weeks which should be in par with the D200 > and you are at least already familiar with Canon gear. Having used twenty to thirty year old FD equipment hardly makes one familiar with current Canon equipment. Everything has changed, most particularly the ergonomics, not to mention all the little buttons and dials. SignatureRegards, Matt Clara www.mattclara.com > So along comes the Nikon D200, sounds great, a few teething > problems but all in all the right package at the right price. But can > you buy one well no. B&H won't even talk to you about the camera. B&H had them in stock last week, but they sold all they had within a day. > Have been a photographer for almost 40 years. Time has come to put away > my Canon FD equipment (will never put away my Leicas) and get a digital [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Tom Two Canon solutions, 24mm f2.8 for $290, or buy a 5D instead of a D200 and get a Canon 35mm f2 for $230. The latter solution also gives you the option of a 28mm f1.8 for around $400. SignatureSkip Middleton http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com > Have been a photographer for almost 40 years. Time has come to put away > my Canon FD equipment (will never put away my Leicas) and get a digital [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > on my camera. Nikons 24 f2 can be had for under $500, while Canon's 24 > f1.4 is well over a thousand. Just frustrated. Nikon decided that camera stores would be low priority, witness 8,000 units being sold to BestBuy. > Nikon decided that camera stores would be low priority, witness 8,000 > units being sold to BestBuy. There they shall stay since I wouldn't buy one from BestBuy for 50% off even if I were in the market for one and very desperate. Surprisingly, I found the opposite to be true, the smaller camera shops got theirs before everyone else. Rita It is getting to the point that I may go the Best Buy or Cameta route (Cameta is no longer getting $3-400 over list). Finally got someone at B&H that gave me some info, they get a certain number (not specified) every week or two (not dependable). B&H is selling first come first served, no lists, they sell out in a few hours. Live on the B&H web site or loosem out. I have bought film from them for years, but this is rediculous. So if Best Buy has the camera why not, they have a reasonable 30 dayu return policy, so if you get a turkey your covered. I really hate going this direction, our local pro shop cited Best Buy as the reason they went out of business. Now I have Ritz, a frame shop in a college town that sells a few cameras, Best Buy, or live on the B&H web site. Not a great choice. Tom > > Have been a photographer for almost 40 years. Time has come to put away > > my Canon FD equipment (will never put away my Leicas) and get a digital [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Nikon decided that camera stores would be low priority, witness 8,000 units > being sold to BestBuy. I believe Nikon shares them out fairly across the board, thereby not alienating any part of their distribution chain. The fact is, Nikon always operates like this. They tell us about the new camera before it's available, and then when it first becomes available they are in short supply. Part of the reason for the short supply is the high demand for the product. SignatureRegards, Matt Clara www.mattclara.com |
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