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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2006

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I despair of the human race i really do!

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ian lincoln - 11 Feb 2006 23:25 GMT
Was invited a couple of weeks ago to photo my nephew at his rugby club.  All
arranged for tomorrow.  Cancelled cos someone turned up the week before with
a camera and the usual 'paedophile with camera' hysteria kicked in.  They're
playing rugby for gods sake they'll all be covered in mud in ten minutes how
erotic is that?
Dave - 11 Feb 2006 23:44 GMT
I can understand the parent's hysteria since I work for law enforcement and
have worked cases where someone was "just taking pictures" and it was much
more than that.

I wouldn't cancel your invite. Let others know why your there (nephew) and
shoot away. If you don't feel comfortable about what other parents might be
thinking, then make sure you shoot just your nephew.

I have photographed children in Scouts, on school field trips, at parties,
etc., and I make sure the parents know who I am and why I'm shooting. Most
of the time I supply a photo CD for those families I talk with. After a
while, everyone knows I'm "the photo guy" and they expect me around.

Cheers!
Dave

> Was invited a couple of weeks ago to photo my nephew at his rugby club.
> All arranged for tomorrow.  Cancelled cos someone turned up the week
> before with a camera and the usual 'paedophile with camera' hysteria
> kicked in.  They're playing rugby for gods sake they'll all be covered in
> mud in ten minutes how erotic is that?
C J Southern - 12 Feb 2006 01:38 GMT
> I can understand the parent's hysteria since I work for law enforcement and
> have worked cases where someone was "just taking pictures" and it was much
> more than that.

I have to wonder just how far one should let this kind of thing go. For
example, should all men be considered rapists just because "they have the
equipment"?

I'm wondering if it would help to put on a bright orange safety jacket with
the word "MEDIA" emplasoned across the back - making it look more official.
Have a pocket full of business cards that can be handed out to any parent
who questions what you're doing there. I mean to say, being suspicious in
this day and age is probably a good thing - but I'd also like to think it
normal for those suspicions to melt away once someone has asked the right
questions, and been satisfied that you are an industry professional.
Sheldon - 14 Feb 2006 01:57 GMT
>> I can understand the parent's hysteria since I work for law enforcement
> and
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> normal for those suspicions to melt away once someone has asked the right
> questions, and been satisfied that you are an industry professional.

While there are a lot of good thoughts and ideas in this thread, if you are
in the US at a public place on public property you are fair game for any
photographer, as long as they don' t use the photo for commercial purposes.
Then they would need a release.  Like the time I skipped school to go to
opening day at the ballpark and me and my friend's pictures were on the
front page of the paper!  While it was embarrassing, there wasn't anything
we could do about it.
John A. Stovall - 11 Feb 2006 23:51 GMT
>Was invited a couple of weeks ago to photo my nephew at his rugby club.  All
>arranged for tomorrow.  Cancelled cos someone turned up the week before with
>a camera and the usual 'paedophile with camera' hysteria kicked in.  They're
>playing rugby for gods sake they'll all be covered in mud in ten minutes how
>erotic is that?

I was ask by my church to do pictures of the Christian Child
Development classes at work for a church newsletter.  When I got
there, the teachers had to take out all the children whose parents
hadn't signed releases to allow them to be photographed. I would say
over half had not signed the releases.

I thought it was utterly insane.  It was for their own church's
newsletter.  
**********************************************************

"A combat photographer should be able to make you see the
color of blood in black and white"

                    David Douglas Duncan
                Speaking on why in Vietnam
             he worked only in black and white
     http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/online/ddd/
Robert R Kircher, Jr. - 12 Feb 2006 00:15 GMT
>>Was invited a couple of weeks ago to photo my nephew at his rugby club.
>>All
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I thought it was utterly insane.  It was for their own church's
> newsletter.

Don't assume that parents actually saw the notice and refused to sign it.
Being a parent of 2, 9 years apart, I've seen it at both the grade and high
school levels.  The kid forgets, the parents forget, the teacher forgets,
etc.  In my experience Its usually only a small number of paranoid nuts who
wouldn't allow Jr to be photographed.  Most people don't mind and actually
love to have some of the pics when you're done.  I can't tell you how many
time my wife and I here, "It so nice of you guys to do this!"

Signature

Rob
"A disturbing new study finds that studies are disturbing"

eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 14 Feb 2006 03:55 GMT
> [releases weren't signed]
>
> I thought it was utterly insane.  It was for their own church's
> newsletter.

Increasingly I find it more insane that newspapers and the media in
general are allowed to profit -- handsomely and utterly scot free -- in
the sale of their wares while using the images of completely and
trivially identifiable people and property without a hint of
permission, while it is strictly forbidden to pull exactly the same
stunt while you are selling tampons.  Even more scandalous is that
these media companies claim a _right_ to these images they are _given_
special dispensations to publish sans the usual release.  What's the
logic in this again?

So when you report that a church newsletter is abiding by common sense
and decency, I can't find much to complain about.
Sheldon - 12 Feb 2006 01:32 GMT
> Was invited a couple of weeks ago to photo my nephew at his rugby club.
> All arranged for tomorrow.  Cancelled cos someone turned up the week
> before with a camera and the usual 'paedophile with camera' hysteria
> kicked in.  They're playing rugby for gods sake they'll all be covered in
> mud in ten minutes how erotic is that?
I teach some classes at the local community college.  With all the hoopla
surrounding teachers and students these days I'm afraid to brush up against
any of them for fear of a lawsuit.
Colin D - 12 Feb 2006 02:20 GMT
> Was invited a couple of weeks ago to photo my nephew at his rugby club.  All
> arranged for tomorrow.  Cancelled cos someone turned up the week before with
> a camera and the usual 'paedophile with camera' hysteria kicked in.  They're
> playing rugby for gods sake they'll all be covered in mud in ten minutes how
> erotic is that?

Western societies are on a destructive roller coaster with all this PC
nonsense.  I see in Queensland, Australia now, they are issuing 'blue
cards' to people who have anything to do with children - photogs, bus
drivers, school caretakers, sunday school teachers, etc, - even school
crossing supervisors!  These cards are issued only after a police check
into the applicant's background.  I don't know what the penalties are
for not having one, but job adverts for positions that interact with
kids specify that applicants must hold a blue card.  Have a look at:

http://www.uq.edu.au/hupp/?page=25004&pid=24963

I guess photogs will soon be restricted to no photography of any persons
at all, and landscapes, animals, and inanimate objects will be the only
allowable subject matter - as long as it doesn't clash with somebody's
ideas of 'security'.

They say that democracy has within itself the seeds of its own
destruction, I guess meaning that democratic societies can harbor
enemies of the system.  I think the real seeds of destruction are the
fanatical pressure groups, various people and committees with axes to
grind, even governments who, while not openly opposing democracy, insist
that their views and ideas are acted upon to the detriment of the rest
of the people.

The obvious example of this destructive trend is the spreading belief
that all people with a camera are potential paedophiles, definitely
enhanced by the advent of camera phones.  There are other examples, like
banning advertising pictures of children modelling underwear;
fluoridation of water supplies; compulsory wearing of seat belts in
vehicles; compulsory security fencing of home swimming pools - including
the blow-up plastic pools that hold about a foot of water (New Zealand
law, despite the fact that open drains, ponds and lakes in public parks
etc are not required to be fenced at all); attempted banning of certain
words, like 'manhole' (required is 'person-hole', 'mankind'; use of s/he
or she/he or he/she to eliminate perceived sexual discrimination, etc,
and many others.  All of these restrictions have come about through
pressure from vocal minority groups, and not general consensus.

I haven't any ideas on how to reverse this dangerous trend.  I guess it
will end with some kind of anarchy when the PC movement finally
oversteps the bounds of what the man in the street will accept.

It's at the stage now where I feel guilty if I photograph my
grand-daughters, so the photographic record of our family has few
pictures of the girls, those we do have have been taken by my wife.

Colin D.
C J Southern - 12 Feb 2006 02:44 GMT
> I haven't any ideas on how to reverse this dangerous trend.  I guess it
> will end with some kind of anarchy when the PC movement finally
> oversteps the bounds of what the man in the street will accept.

I've got a feeling that nothing is ever going to change until people are
forced to take responsibility for their own actions. If I only ever manage
to teach my kids that "actions have consequences" I'll die a happier man.
Paul Richardson - 12 Feb 2006 04:38 GMT
>> I haven't any ideas on how to reverse this dangerous trend.  I guess it
>> will end with some kind of anarchy when the PC movement finally
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> forced to take responsibility for their own actions. If I only ever manage
> to teach my kids that "actions have consequences" I'll die a happier man.

Amen, imagine if we could, after teaching children that maxim, elighten
public policy makers (on both side of the aisle) as well
C J Southern - 12 Feb 2006 06:12 GMT
> Amen, imagine if we could, after teaching children that maxim, elighten
> public policy makers (on both side of the aisle) as well

Yeah - that's the irony of the world we seem to live in these days - people
don't get to feel the consequences of their actions, so they don't learn
from their mistakes. Think about it - how many times do you have to stick
your hand into a 115 / 230 volt socket to work out it's not a good idea? -
and yet when you get some thug who goes out of his way to beat someone up
and ends up only getting a $150 fine (which he doesn't pay), tell me again
how much he's learned?

What would politicians do about it? - they're too busy trying to increase
their power and bolster their own egos - getting as "PC" as possible whilst
they usurp the livings of those who actually earn the $$$.
JC Dill - 12 Feb 2006 09:48 GMT
>Was invited a couple of weeks ago to photo my nephew at his rugby club.  All
>arranged for tomorrow.  Cancelled cos someone turned up the week before with
>a camera and the usual 'paedophile with camera' hysteria kicked in.  

Don't back out!  Go, take photos, and make sure everyone knows A) that
you were ASKED to take photos and B) that you are there to take photos
of your nephew.  You have a right to do this, and more importantly we
all need to do everything we can to keep this hysteria from stopping
innocent and legitimate activities like taking photos of a relative's
child playing sports.

The other suggestion about wearing a shirt with a label is a great
one.  I'm going to get shirts that say "event photographer" to wear
when I do photos at events.

jc
ian lincoln - 12 Feb 2006 11:54 GMT
>>Was invited a couple of weeks ago to photo my nephew at his rugby club.
>>All
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> one.  I'm going to get shirts that say "event photographer" to wear
> when I do photos at events.

Well personally i would have gone regardless and anyone who complained would
have been referred to my brother in law and nephew.  Handing out cds
aftewards may even be a source of revenue.  My sister on the other hand
panicked and forbid me to turn up at all.
Kennedy McEwen - 12 Feb 2006 13:32 GMT
>>>Was invited a couple of weeks ago to photo my nephew at his rugby club.
>>>All
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>aftewards may even be a source of revenue.  My sister on the other hand
>panicked and forbid me to turn up at all.

It is still within *your* rights to be there and to take photographs of
the even - assuming it is clearly visible from a public area, even if it
is on private land owned by the rugby club.  Similarly, wearing or
carrying material that could be construed as identifying you as some
sort of event official, especially when you have merely been asked by
someone other than the event organisers to be there, is forfeiting your
freedom to take photographs in any case and may, in itself, be a genuine
offence, which would certainly not help your case.

Old Benjy Franklin's words are still as true today as they were 200
years ago: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.".
Signature

Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
Python Philosophers         (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)

Paul Richardson - 12 Feb 2006 15:20 GMT
>>>> Was invited a couple of weeks ago to photo my nephew at his rugby club.
>>>> All
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> years ago: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
> temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.".

I also carry business cards, and if asked am very forthcoming regarding
why I am photographing the event if asked by a parent or adult present.
Kennedy McEwen - 12 Feb 2006 17:01 GMT
>I also carry business cards, and if asked am very forthcoming regarding
>why I am photographing the event if asked by a parent or adult present.

There is nothing wrong with anyone asking you, just as there is nothing
wrong with you answering.

However, there is something very wrong with a PC situation in which the
rabid perverted fears of a few encourages otherwise honest people to
take actions which would make them guilty of misrepresentation simply to
engage in activities which they have a perfectly legal right to.
Signature

Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
Python Philosophers         (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)

Kennedy McEwen - 12 Feb 2006 13:27 GMT
>The other suggestion about wearing a shirt with a label is a great
>one.  I'm going to get shirts that say "event photographer" to wear
>when I do photos at events.

Why not just go the whole hog and get Star-of-David's on the sleeves and
"Jude!" across the chest in blood red?

Signature

Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
Python Philosophers         (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)

eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 14 Feb 2006 04:30 GMT
> >Was invited a couple of weeks ago to photo my nephew at his rugby club.  All
> >arranged for tomorrow.  Cancelled cos someone turned up the week before with
> >a camera and the usual 'paedophile with camera' hysteria kicked in.
>
> Don't back out!  Go, take photos, and make sure everyone knows A) that
> you were ASKED to take photos

His permission was rescinded, remember?

> and B) that you are there to take photos
> of your nephew.  You have a right to do this, [...]

If the "rugby club" says "no pictures", who are you to argue with them?
For example, if I took my EF 500/4 and 1D2 into the "Roger's Centre"
to take pictures of the Toronto Blue Jays, you think they'll accept a
"BUT IT'S MY RIGHT!!!" argument?  Or do you think will they just point
out the Rules and eject me?

> and more importantly we
> all need to do everything we can to keep this hysteria from stopping
> innocent and legitimate activities like taking photos of a relative's
> child playing sports.

I think you need to realize that private organizations and individuals
have the ability to say "no", and bullocks to you if you disagree.  I
suggest you bring a long, long, lens if this club has venue control.

> The other suggestion about wearing a shirt with a label is a great
> one.  I'm going to get shirts that say "event photographer" to wear
> when I do photos at events.

Yes, it is well known that pedophiles are completely incapable of
getting special T-shirts made up saying "event photographer", nor is it
possible for them to claim they are just there to take pictures of
nephews.  I think these are corollaries of the four-colour theorem, no?
Sionnach - 15 Feb 2006 03:25 GMT
>bullocks to you if you disagree.

Hrm. I feel compelled to point out that "bullocks" are young cattle; I
suspect you mean "bollocks". ;-D
Mike Coon - 12 Feb 2006 10:51 GMT
> Was invited a couple of weeks ago to photo my nephew at his rugby
> club.  All arranged for tomorrow.  Cancelled cos someone turned up
> the week before with a camera and the usual 'paedophile with camera'
> hysteria kicked in.  They're playing rugby for gods sake they'll all
> be covered in mud in ten minutes how erotic is that?

Have you never seen shots on TV of ladies mud-wrestling? I presume some
people do find it arousing, like over-the-top wet t-shirts. Some people only
have to hear of someting kinky to assume that everyone (else) is "at it"...

Mike.
Signature

If reply address = connectfee, add an r because it is free not fee.

richdirector@gmail.com - 14 Feb 2006 09:57 GMT
It is not all a sad state of affairs - I recently took photos of my
daughter aged 18months running naked in the hall towards me - very cute
- had it printed up twice 10x8 and framed for the grandparents and
nobody said anything (developer or framer) - maybe the new centre of
civilization and realism is in Glasgow?

Then again I realise what the response would have been if American
photographer Sally Mann had been a man. Her images are fantastic ....
yet i am sure she would have been arrested or at least "questioned" if
male.

Richard
Paul Richardson - 14 Feb 2006 15:38 GMT
> It is not all a sad state of affairs - I recently took photos of my
> daughter aged 18months running naked in the hall towards me - very cute
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Richard

I did the same with my daughter in the bath tub using the newly
acquired D200, then printed an 8x10 and sent it off to the grands. With
it being an all digital workflow I was secure in knowing Child
Protective Services wouldn't arrest me.

BTW, I am loving this camera
C J Southern - 15 Feb 2006 07:57 GMT
> I did the same with my daughter in the bath tub using the newly acquired
> D200, then printed an 8x10 and sent it off to the grands. With it being an
> all digital workflow I was secure in knowing Child Protective Services
> wouldn't arrest me.
>
> BTW, I am loving this camera

Hmmm - loving your camera might be something to get arrested for though!
Paul Richardson - 15 Feb 2006 21:46 GMT
>> I did the same with my daughter in the bath tub using the newly
>> acquired D200, then printed an 8x10 and sent it off to the grands. With
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Hmmm - loving your camera might be something to get arrested for though!

True tue, I did notice that there was a Nikonophilia statute on the books

/pgr
Sionnach - 15 Feb 2006 03:25 GMT
> Then again I realise what the response would have been if American
> photographer Sally Mann had been a man. Her images are fantastic ....
> yet i am sure she would have been arrested or at least "questioned" if
> male.

 Erm... didn't she primarily photograph her own children?
cjcampbell - 15 Feb 2006 08:56 GMT
> Was invited a couple of weeks ago to photo my nephew at his rugby club.  All
> arranged for tomorrow.  Cancelled cos someone turned up the week before with
> a camera and the usual 'paedophile with camera' hysteria kicked in.  They're
> playing rugby for gods sake they'll all be covered in mud in ten minutes how
> erotic is that?

Hmmm. Time was when anyone who publicly suggested that somebody was a
pedophile would have been equally publicly assaulted.

If someone defamed me that way they would be hearing from my lawyer.
Seems about time to start fighting this garbage with the same weapons
and attitude that began it.
 
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