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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2006

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Help in choosing the correct tripod

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Scratch and Sniff - 10 Feb 2006 01:40 GMT
I am sure this topic has been beaten to death but here goes.

I am looking to purchase a tripod and head.  I have looked at a bunch of
stuff and I am confused as to what the ideal properties are used for
choosing a tripod.

Weight
Max vertical height "not including raising the top tube"
Structural rigidity
Ease of use
Price

The largest lens I currently own is the canon EF 70-200 2.8L USM on a Canon
20D

Thanks for any impute
Toby - 10 Feb 2006 03:49 GMT
>I am sure this topic has been beaten to death but here goes.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Canon
> 20D

It depends on what you need to do with it. All these factors are trade-offs.
Structural rigidity depends on the diameter of the leg tubing,  for the most
part. Larger, thicker tubing is heavier and costs more. Materials such as
carbon fiber and Gitzo "basalt" are about 1/3 lighter than aluminum and
about equal in rigidity, but cost significantly more. So here you balance
price against weight. If you do a lot of trekking you'll probably want to
spend the extra money; if you do mostly setup shots in the studio it would
hardly be worth it.

Generally I find that it is nice to have a set of sticks that will be at my
eye level without raising the center post. I also have a little Gitzo that
has a range from about 35cm to 1m for just packing along easily. Most of the
photojournalists I know have big heavy beasts that go up to about 2m. With a
200mm lens you don't need anything too heavy-duty, but keep in mind that no
tripod is completely steady once you introduce motion into the picture--even
the most heavy-duty ones will vibrate to some degree if the wind picks up,
or due to camera mirror-slap.

Gitzo and Benbo make unique tripods in which the legs and head post can be
set at any angle, as they are all aligned on a common axis. They are
excellent for working on mountainous or angled terrain, or setting up macro
shots in the field, but they are not as easy to use as a standard tripod.
It's all trade-offs, and what you need.

Personally I like a ball head, since I can adjust all the movements with a
single knob, but others prefer three-axis heads.

Another question is about having a geared center post. Non-geared is lighter
and generally faster, but geared allows for very fine adjustments, which can
be very useful in macro work.

Do you have more specific questions?

Toby
Floyd Davidson - 10 Feb 2006 06:04 GMT
>I am sure this topic has been beaten to death but here goes.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Thanks for any impute

It depends on *greatly* on what you want to do with a tripod.
I've got several (most of them relatively inexpensive too), and
commonly use at least three of them.

In addition to your list, there are some other things which
might (or not) be important.

The type of mount for a head (for example if you have more than
one tripod or more than one head, being able to interchange at
least some things is useful).

Another possibly useful consideration is what type of accessories
are available for it.  Sidearms for example, to mount the camera
off center from the tripod.

The ability to get the camera down low for taking pictures of
things at ground level (flowers, bugs, whatever).  And perhaps
the ability to have the camera at a low level to match your
height when sitting on the ground.  (That's not one I do, but
I've seen sports photographers on the sidelines at football or
soccer games sitting on the ground with a tripod that has legs
spread way apart, and the camera right at eye level.)

Obviously one tripod cannot be all things to all situations.  I
have a very lightweight tripod with a ball head that I use when
I have to carry things, but don't need super stability.  Setting
up for shooting social functions indoors, for example (games,
political rallies, school functions, etc. etc.).  On the other
hand I have three tripods with Majestic gearheads on them, and I
just love them all.  The tripod I use (and love) the most is my
one genuine Majestic tripod (made by Bencher).  I have two
different kinds of sidearms for it and it gets used for just
about anything where I can tolerate packing a tripod that heavy.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson           http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                      floyd@apaflo.com

zeitgeist - 10 Feb 2006 08:38 GMT
> I am looking to purchase a tripod and head.  I have looked at a bunch of
> stuff and I am confused as to what the ideal properties are used for
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> The largest lens I currently own is the canon EF 70-200 2.8L USM on a Canon
> 20D

weight and rigidity seem to be related, dead weight counts quite a bit, (but
its easy to add weight with a plastic bag and some rocks, water bottles
filled on site and tied together and looped over the cross brace.

the cross brace helps a lot.  it makes the pod a solid form and not 3 sticks
in a hub.  triangles are the strongest structure.   in the old days they
used a triangle on the ground and put the spikes into the ends.

ease of use, quick release clamps.  cheap ones cause loose joints that can
let the camera vibrate, good ones can cost as much as the pod.   pneumatic
legs lets you set up faster, makes adjusting a whole lot faster.
Tony Polson - 10 Feb 2006 12:51 GMT
>the cross brace helps a lot.  it makes the pod a solid form and not 3 sticks
>in a hub.

You have to be joking.  A rigid tripod doesn't need a brace, unless it
is exceptionally large and/or has to carry heavy loads.  All the
Manfrotto (Bogen) and Gitzo tripods suitable for outdoor use with
DSLRs share something in common - they have no cross brace.

The tripods that do have cross braces are the cheaper models with soft
extruded U-section aluminium legs.  They are so soft that they will
bend in a breeze.  They wilt before your eyes if you stare hard at
them for more then twenty seconds.    ;-)

They come with brand names like Velbon, Kodak and Slik.  Avoid them
like the plague!
Bigguy - 10 Feb 2006 13:55 GMT
>>the cross brace helps a lot.  it makes the pod a solid form and not 3
>>sticks
>>in a hub.
>
> You have to be joking.  A rigid tripod doesn't need a brace, unless it
> is exceptionally large and/or has to carry heavy loads.

Second that....

Guy
Toby - 12 Feb 2006 13:58 GMT
>>the cross brace helps a lot.  it makes the pod a solid form and not 3
>>sticks
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> They come with brand names like Velbon, Kodak and Slik.  Avoid them
> like the plague!

That being said, both Velbon and Slik have some excellent tripods on the
market that can go head-to-head with the likes of Gitzo. The Slik heavy duty
CFs beat the Gitzos for vibration damping.

Toby
zeitgeist - 14 Feb 2006 04:33 GMT
> You have to be joking.  A rigid tripod doesn't need a brace, unless it
> is exceptionally large and/or has to carry heavy loads.  All the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> They come with brand names like Velbon, Kodak and Slik.  Avoid them
> like the plague!

bogan pods with cross braces are not cheap like the garbage ones you pointed
out.  they are heavy, sturdy and expensive, at least their better models
WITH cross braces.

I used to use the pneumatic one, where you hit two buttons the legs dropped
to the ground, made setting up really easy, especially uneven ground.  Also
the twin legged one, that looked like old fashioned crutches.

Most top end pods come with cross braces,  why would you disparage my reply
just because some cheap products are made that way too.   However the
advantages that the cross brace offer a cheap flimsy piece of junk to just
stand up also help a real pod do the job too.

Having a cross brace means you can load up some dead weight and really hold
down vibrations from the camera itself, the mirror slap, etc.  It may not be
as much an issue with a good 35mm based camera, but it was in the previous
millennia when photogs used medium format with a large mirror that could set
off visible vibrations.

Currently I use a lighter non braced bogan bod, but for critical work, for
landscapes where fine detail helps, I'll drag out the heavy artillary.  For
portraits its not so critical, the pod is basically to hold the camera where
I want it, and to impress the client, (ooh, tripod)

In my ten years of posting on the usenet, I've been pretty much a straight
shooter.
Alan Browne - 18 Feb 2006 21:11 GMT
> All the Manfrotto (Bogen) and Gitzo tripods suitable for outdoor use
> with DSLRs share something in common - they have no cross brace.

Wrong.  There are several Manfrotto's that have cross braces for heavier
outdoor shooting with larger lenses.  This includes my Manfrotto 58B
tripod.  And they are meant for outdoors and include built in
retractable spikes for appropriate terrain.

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--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
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--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

Arthur Small - 10 Feb 2006 15:06 GMT
There are so many variables to consider and many have been listed. I have
had many tripods of the years and many are collecting dust. Just picked up a
carbon fiber model, light weight but not cheap.

It is a tough decision on what to get, and the best way is to look at
various models and pick the one that will do the job for you and you can
afford .

www.alldigital.fotopic.net
Bigguy - 10 Feb 2006 15:43 GMT
True... It's best to buy the tripod you can't really afford  ;-)  and not
have to 'upgrade' later.

Tripods appear very expensive to the 'novice' but you do get what you pay
for.
For years I thought all tripods wobbled at full extension - then I got my
hands on a Gitzo and understood the meaning of quality... and saw why light
weight AND rigidity have to cost money.

You either buy a whole series of crap tripods and finally pay again for a
good'un OR you get smart and buy a good'un first ;-)

Guy

If you don't mind the weight Manfrotto are good value.
> There are so many variables to consider and many have been listed. I have
> had many tripods of the years and many are collecting dust. Just picked up
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> www.alldigital.fotopic.net
Kyle Jones - 10 Feb 2006 23:30 GMT
> True... It's best to buy the tripod you can't really afford  ;-)  and not
> have to 'upgrade' later.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> You either buy a whole series of crap tripods and finally pay again for a
> good'un OR you get smart and buy a good'un first ;-)

Maybe.  Some people never need a good'un, just like some of us will
never need a flagship camera body or L glass.  Even a cheap tripod is so
much better than no tripod at all that I can't see advising a non-pro to
keep saving for that special gilded tripod that will last a lifetime...
only to have their son back the car over it in the garage a year later.
zeitgeist - 14 Feb 2006 04:37 GMT
Even a cheap tripod is so
> much better than no tripod at all that I can't see advising a non-pro to
> keep saving for that special gilded tripod that will last a lifetime...
> only to have their son back the car over it in the garage a year later.

actually no, a cheap pod can be worse than no tripod at all.  A cheap pod
can let your camera vibrate like a tuning fork from environmental sources,
they can actually amplify the vibrations.  They can echo the mirror slap
just in time for the exposure.

if you don't want a good pod, try a bean bag.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 11 Feb 2006 02:14 GMT
> True... It's best to buy the tripod you can't really afford  ;-)  and not
> have to 'upgrade' later.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Guy

I agree completely.

When choosing a tripod, extend the legs, grab the head
and twist.  Note how much twist in each one.
Put a big camera with big lens on it and
tap the legs and watch and feel the vibration.  Most
tripods are pretty poor.  The carbon fiber will be
the best.  Test a Bogen 3001, and 3021 for reference.
A 3001 is kind of the bottom in my opinion and with the
20D and 20-200L lens might show some shake, and definitely
with with a 2x extender on it.  Then test a carbon fiber,
like a Gitzo 1228 and it is an amazing difference.

A dozen years ago when I started getting drum scans of my
slides, and seeing blur.  I analyzed what did it and it turned
out to be the tripod.  I upgraded to Bogen 3001, then
3021, then carbon fiber.  The CF was a big jump
in stability.

I feel I can do better with a Gitzo 1220 CF
than I can with a Bogen 3021 aluminum tripod.  Metal 3021
legs vibrate.  The 3021 (8 lbs, 3.6 Kg) has an 11 pound load
capacity while the Gitzo 1228 weighs 3.8 lbs (1.7 Kg), and las a
load capacity of 17.6 pounds.  I have both, and the 1228
is much more stable at half the weight.  Just an example.

For a head, be sure it has a quick release plate system,
and one that if you release the clamp, the camera will
not slide off or fall out of the clamp.  This is VERY important.
After going through several clamp systems, there are only
two I like: the arca-swiss style that Wimberly puts out
that has screw stops to prevent sliding out, and a Bogen
329 head (Manfroto 3410).  The 329 head has the highest
camera load/head weight ratio in the Bogen line for pan/tilt
heads and has a quick release with a safety stop.
I use it and ball heads with the Wimberly clamp.  Then for
big telephotos, I use the Wimberly heads (sidekick for up to
300mm, full Wimberly for 500mm f/4).

Roger
Photos at: http://www.clarkvision.com

> If you don't mind the weight Manfrotto are good value.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
>>www.alldigital.fotopic.net
VK - 11 Feb 2006 11:47 GMT
> Put a big camera with big lens on it and
> tap the legs and watch and feel the vibration.

Maybe I am not doing it right, but this test has never really worked
for me.  Even my Gitzo 1548 + Arca Swiss combo shakes when I do this.
I guess this is more usefu as a comparative test - or could be that I
am doing it all wrong :)

Vandit
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 12 Feb 2006 04:24 GMT
>>Put a big camera with big lens on it and
>>tap the legs and watch and feel the vibration.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Vandit

Pretty much every tripod vibrates, so it is a matter of degree.
But it is a great relative comparison test.  I have Gitzo 1325
CF tripod and it is better than a 1228, with is better than a
Bogen 3021 aluminum tripod which is better than a 3001, which
is better than .....

Even my Losmandy G11 tripod vibrates (3-inch diameter aluminum
legs, weighs 35 pounds, head = 36 pounds + counterweight =
21 pounds, so pretty heavy to lift).  Concrete piers
work real well, but aren't very portable ;-).

Roger
VK - 12 Feb 2006 10:19 GMT
> Even my Losmandy G11 tripod vibrates (3-inch diameter aluminum
> legs, weighs 35 pounds, head = 36 pounds + counterweight =
> 21 pounds, so pretty heavy to lift).

I've seen that at my gym - it's got the words "advanced bench press"
written next to it.

I gotsta ask - what *do* you put on that thing, other than the
1200/5.6?

Vandit
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 12 Feb 2006 22:09 GMT
>>Even my Losmandy G11 tripod vibrates (3-inch diameter aluminum
>>legs, weighs 35 pounds, head = 36 pounds + counterweight =
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Vandit

Astrophotography:

http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.astrophoto-1
Many of the above photos are with the same 500 mm f/4 telephoto
lens I use for wildlife.  (Jump to the home page above and
you will see links to wildlife photos.)

Roger
VK - 13 Feb 2006 10:43 GMT
> http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.astrophoto-1
> Many of the above photos are with the same 500 mm f/4 telephoto
> lens I use for wildlife.  (Jump to the home page above and
> you will see links to wildlife photos.)

Very cool - somehow, I've always been under the impression that you
needed a lot longer lens in order to get those kind of shots.

And some great shots in your landscape and wildlife galleries - that
San Juan mountain  sunset image is *excellent*!

Vandit
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 14 Feb 2006 02:47 GMT
>>http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.astrophoto-1
>>Many of the above photos are with the same 500 mm f/4 telephoto
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> And some great shots in your landscape and wildlife galleries - that
> San Juan mountain  sunset image is *excellent*!

Thanks.  The San Juan mountain sunset image was done with
a 35-135 sigma zoom lens, at f/11.  The drum scanned image
is very sharp and I have sold 24x36 inch prints of it.

Roger
babalooixnay@hotmail.com - 10 Feb 2006 19:12 GMT
It's really hard to get an "all use" tripod without paying a small
fortune for carbon.  Stability generally = weight at all but the
highest cost factors.  I use a relatively heavy and clunky Manfrotto
when the gear is going in the car and a lightweight and very compact
Cullman Magic II for traveling by bicycle and long trips.  The Magic II
just won't work all the time but it's better than having nothing.  All
the lighter tripods can be made more stable by adding weight to the
center.  I made up a 12"x12" nylon drawstring bag that I fill with
rocks when traveling light then hang it from the center.  The Magic II
center post is removable and can do double duty as a monopod of sorts
as well.  The real money should go into the head for your main tripod.
Get something smooth and easy whatever style you decide on.  I like a
ball head that gets replaced by a real simple rotating disc for
panoramas.
Sheldon - 10 Feb 2006 23:19 GMT
>I am sure this topic has been beaten to death but here goes.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Thanks for any impute

My rule of thumb is that the lighter the camera the heavier and sturdier the
tripod needs to be, as the weight of the camera will help stabilize the
whole thing.  You can have a very rigid and lightweight carbon fiber tripod,
but something has to keep it on the earth.  A decent wind and you'll be
running after a very lightweight tripod.  Also, I like a head that lets you
easily flip the camera for vertical shots.

Fancy heads are only if you need them, and look for a tripod that has a
comfortable grip at a nice working distance from the head.  Futhermore, look
at the feet.  The combo rubber feet with recessed spikes are nice (no extra
parts).  The spikes work well on really thick carpet, too.
Toby - 12 Feb 2006 14:02 GMT
>>I am sure this topic has been beaten to death but here goes.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> you'll be running after a very lightweight tripod.  Also, I like a head
> that lets you easily flip the camera for vertical shots.

Yes and no. Put a body + 600mm f4 tele on a light tripod and see how far you
get. You need some rigidity with long heavy teles, which you just don't get
with puny legs. Touch the camera and you end up waiting for minutes for the
vibrations to stop.

Toby
Kratzer und Atemzug - 13 Feb 2006 06:12 GMT
: >>I am sure this topic has been beaten to death but here goes.
: >>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
:
: Toby

Does this include using the lens mount?
Kratzer und Atemzug - 12 Feb 2006 06:53 GMT
:I am sure this topic has been beaten to death but here goes.
:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
:
: Thanks for any impute

I really appreciate all the responses.
Mike Rooney - 13 Feb 2006 16:59 GMT
>I am sure this topic has been beaten to death but here goes.
>
> I am looking to purchase a tripod and head.  I have looked at a bunch of
> stuff and I am confused as to what the ideal properties are used for
> choosing a tripod.

Not to beat a dead horse about which tripod(s) are best for which
situation -- a couple of points that haven't been mentioned yet:

   1)    I strongly recommend you get a tripod head with a quick release
base -- put one plate on your camera based and one on the 70-200 2.8L foot.
Believe me, will save a lot of your time and the plates are relatively
inexpensive.

   2)    Very important -- get a tripod that when legs are fully extended
and with the head, quick release plate, and camera) that puts the viewfinder
on your 20D comfortably at your eye level.  You can always squat if you put
the tripod lower but not if it's above eye level and I suspect the vast
majority of your shots will be with the tripod legs extended and at a
comfortable eye level.

   3)    Get the remote release for the 20D -- there's so much emphasis put
on the innate stability of the tripod -- which is important -- but many of
the vibrations/camera shake that occur is because of the photographer
hurriedly depressing/mashing the shutter release which induces movement
through no fault of the tripod.

Mike
Jim Redelfs - 14 Feb 2006 02:14 GMT
>     1)    I strongly recommend you get a tripod head with a quick release
> base -- put one plate on your camera based and one on the 70-200 2.8L foot.
> Believe me, will save a lot of your time and the plates are relatively
> inexpensive.

Excellent advice.  I use a Bogen 3040a and have THREE removable plates.  This
is are a feature I would NOT be without.

> the vast majority of your shots will be with the tripod legs extended
> and at a comfortable eye level.

Agreed.  However, a couple or three of my best scenic shots were with the legs
and center post fully extended.  In these cases, I use a two-step stool to use
the camera.

>     3)    Get the remote release for the 20D

That was the first accessory I ordered THE day I got my 20D.

> -- there's so much emphasis put
> on the innate stability of the tripod

...and rightfully so.

> -- which is important -- but many of
> the vibrations/camera shake that occur is because of the photographer
> hurriedly depressing/mashing the shutter release which induces movement
> through no fault of the tripod.

I've used that method a few times!  Other times, I set the TIMER so I wouldn't
have to touch the camera, but the "cable" release is MUCH better.

Actually, it's called a "Remote Switch"
and the model number is RS-80N3

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=
164276&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

http://www.canoncompanystore.com/epages/annex.storefront?ProductDetail=2476A001
AA

Get a good, sturdy tripod.  Don't cheap out.  However, remember that tripods
like my Bogen are NOT a hiker's or backpacker's tripod:  They're too heavy and
bulky.  My tripod is built like a tank and, if they day is too windy when I
have it fully extended, I can confidently weigh it down with a sandbag or two.  
I've had it for over twenty years.
Signature

           :)
JR

 
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