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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2006

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help with aperture math

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Beach Bum - 09 Feb 2006 21:59 GMT
I'm trying to understand apertures.  I know that if F2 @ 1/500s then F2.8 @
1/250s and F4 @ 1/125s and F5.6 @ 1/60s..

Where do the seemingly odd numbers 2.8 and 5.6 come from?  This must have
something to do with PI and area of a circle?

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Mark

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Charles - 09 Feb 2006 22:12 GMT
>I'm trying to understand apertures.  I know that if F2 @ 1/500s then F2.8 @
>1/250s and F4 @ 1/125s and F5.6 @ 1/60s..
>
>Where do the seemingly odd numbers 2.8 and 5.6 come from?  This must have
>something to do with PI and area of a circle?

Has more to do with the square root of two, 1.414, or thereabouts.

since the area of the opening is pi d squared, each time d is double,
four times the light gets in.  so, for double the light we need to
multiply the size of the opening by the square root of two.
Beach Bum - 09 Feb 2006 22:58 GMT
"Charles" <ckraft@SPAMTRAP.west.net> wrote in message

> Has more to do with the square root of two, 1.414, or thereabouts.
>
> since the area of the opening is pi d squared, each time d is double,
> four times the light gets in.  so, for double the light we need to
> multiply the size of the opening by the square root of two.

Ah HAH!  Thanks.

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Mark

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David Littlewood - 14 Feb 2006 11:06 GMT
>>I'm trying to understand apertures.  I know that if F2 @ 1/500s then F2.8 @
>>1/250s and F4 @ 1/125s and F5.6 @ 1/60s..
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>four times the light gets in.  so, for double the light we need to
>multiply the size of the opening by the square root of two.

Actually the area of the opening is pi*r^2 (r = radius), not pi*d^2 (d =
diameter). If you want to use the diameter it is (pi*d^2)/4. Doesn't
affect the conclusion, but the error might confuse someone.

David
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David Littlewood

William Oertell - 15 Feb 2006 02:18 GMT
  To double the area of a circle multiply the radius (or diameter) by the
square root of two, or 1.414.  So if you multiply 1 by 1.4 you get 1.4.
Multiply that by 1.4 = 2. 2 x 1.4=2.8, etc.
Jan Böhme - 09 Feb 2006 22:13 GMT
Beach Bum skrev:

> I'm trying to understand apertures.  I know that if F2 @ 1/500s then F2.8 @
> 1/250s and F4 @ 1/125s and F5.6 @ 1/60s..
>
> Where do the seemingly odd numbers 2.8 and 5.6 come from?  This must have
> something to do with PI and area of a circle?

No. They are powers of the square root of 2. The diameter of a circle
varies with the square root of its area. So a circle with twice as
large area has a diameter 1.414 (rounded off to three decimal values)
times as long.

Jan Böhme
David Dyer-Bennet - 09 Feb 2006 23:40 GMT
> I'm trying to understand apertures.  I know that if F2 @ 1/500s then F2.8 @
> 1/250s and F4 @ 1/125s and F5.6 @ 1/60s..
>
> Where do the seemingly odd numbers 2.8 and 5.6 come from?  This must have
> something to do with PI and area of a circle?

Close -- they have to do with the square root of two, from the formula
for the area of a circle.
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JPS@no.komm - 09 Feb 2006 23:44 GMT
>I'm trying to understand apertures.  I know that if F2 @ 1/500s then F2.8 @
>1/250s and F4 @ 1/125s and F5.6 @ 1/60s..
>
>Where do the seemingly odd numbers 2.8 and 5.6 come from?  This must have
>something to do with PI and area of a circle?

Those numbers are the focal length divided by the effective aperture.
They have traditionally been based on powers of the square root of two,
but that is totally arbitrary.  1.414 is the square root of 2; 2 is
1.414 squared; 2.828 is 1.414 to the third power, etc.

For any given focal length, the amount of light on the focal plane is
inversely proportional to that number squared (all other things being
equal).  This is awkward, for instance, if you're trying to trade f-stop
against ISO, but is very practical in other regards, like setting
aperture based on the guide number of a flash (GN/distance =
needed_f-stop).
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Mike Rooney - 09 Feb 2006 23:47 GMT
> I'm trying to understand apertures.  I know that if F2 @ 1/500s then F2.8
> @
> 1/250s and F4 @ 1/125s and F5.6 @ 1/60s..
>
> Where do the seemingly odd numbers 2.8 and 5.6 come from?  This must have
> something to do with PI and area of a circle?

Mark, yes, the numbers for aperture settings are functions of the area of a
circle as others have pointed out.  But perhaps an easier way to think of
the "f stops" or aperture settings is that each number is actually a
fraction indicating the ratio of the "circle" of your lens opening versus
the maximum area of your lens mount (not the maximum opening of your lense
aperture).  Thus a setting of f/4.0 means the aperture on your lens is
opened 1/4th of the area of the lens mount on your camera, f/8.0 is 1/8th of
the maximum opening, f/11 is 1/11th, etc....the "f" numbers in between the
whole stops are still fractions of the maximum area of the mount.

It's also why as the aperture numbers get "bigger", the opening to let the
light in is actually getting smaller -- because they're fractions, not whole
numbers.  The "1/x.0" notation has just been dropped from common usage over
the years.

Almost counter intuitive, isn't it -- the bigger the number the smaller the
opening?

Some think of this relationship for aperture area versus mount area as a
ratio -- 1:4 instead of 1/4th, 1:2.8 instead of 1/2.8th, etc.  That's why
you'll see a notation on a lens like "1:4" or "1:2.8" -- that information is
describing the maximum aperture of that particular lens -- f/4.0, f/2.8,
etc.  Bottom line, whatever floats your boat to make sense of it.

And you've probably understand this but because the opening is getting
smaller, you have to increase the amount of time the shutter is open to
allow the necessary amount of light to strike the recording medium (film,
sensor, whatever) for a correct exposure (and "correct exposure" is another
subjective phrase and an whole different discussion).

Keep in mind that the inverse correlation between the aperture setting and
the shutter speed is a constant  -- thus, for a correct exposure, each time
you open up or close down the aperture, a corresponding, equal, adjustment
needs to be made with the shutter speed.  As the aperture gets smaller, the
shutter speed has to slow down a corresponding equal amount.  Conversely, as
the shutter speed is made faster or slower, there has to be a corresponding
and equal change in the aperture setting.

The old analogy is a bucket and a funnel -- the correct exposure is the size
of the bucket.  How you fill that bucket (with light) is dependent on the
size of the funnel and how fast you pour.  The funnel is the aperture and
how fast is the shutter speed.  The bigger the funnel, the slower you need
to pour.......as I said, it's an old analogy.

Some photography historian (or some one with a better memory) can probably
recall that there use to be a lens that had a maximum of f/1.0 -- I think
Canon made one some years back???

Hope this doesn't confuse things even more.

Mike
Beach Bum - 10 Feb 2006 00:38 GMT
"Mike Rooney" <M.Rooney7@cox.net> wrote in message news:ewQGf.24707

> Mark, yes, the numbers for aperture settings are functions of the area of a
> circle as others have pointed out.

<snip>

Thanks Mike. :)

I know how apertures work - just needed some math to go with it and couldn't
find it in any of my books with quick glance.

> The old analogy is a bucket and a funnel

Hadn't heard this before - I like it. I'll use it when explaining exposure
to beginners.

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Mark

Photos, Ideas & Opinions
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Paul Furman - 10 Feb 2006 01:17 GMT
> ...each number is actually a
> fraction indicating the ratio of the "circle" of your lens opening versus
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> describing the maximum aperture of that particular lens -- f/4.0, f/2.8,
> etc.  Bottom line, whatever floats your boat to make sense of it.

Ah, thanks for this added explanation. Ratio to the area of the lens
mount. Hmm, now I'm confused about the relationship to the focal length
though?

So Mark, what f/stop are you getting with the pinhole setup, f/280 or
something? That 1ds web page said a body cap is about 50mm focal length.
Let's just say the pinhole is 1mm sq. for easy math.
Beach Bum - 10 Feb 2006 01:49 GMT
"Paul Furman" <paul-@-edgehill.net> wrote in message news:wQRGf.23387

> So Mark, what f/stop are you getting with the pinhole setup, f/280 or
> something? That 1ds web page said a body cap is about 50mm focal length.
> Let's just say the pinhole is 1mm sq. for easy math.

Well, in my case I've got the foil streched directly over the body opening
(haven't drilled the body cap yet).  So I figure I'm getting about a 25mm
FL.  The hole is just under a mm, but call it 1mm for easy math.  Looks like
1:25 or F25.  Not as extreme as I'd have thought.

Heh heh.. now you've got me setting a lens to F22 at about FL 22mm and
previwing DoF to see how small the aperture is.. :)  looks to be about 1mm.

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Mark

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Paul Furman - 10 Feb 2006 16:49 GMT
>>So Mark, what f/stop are you getting with the pinhole setup, f/280 or
>>something? That 1ds web page said a body cap is about 50mm focal length.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Heh heh.. now you've got me setting a lens to F22 at about FL 22mm and
> previwing DoF to see how small the aperture is.. :)  looks to be about 1mm.

My 45mm at f/22 isn't much bigger than a mm.

I tried the pinhole thing simply stretching a piece of foil over the
open lens mount & poking with a thumbtack, no need to tape just bend to
fit & hold in place. It seems I'd need a really tiny hole poking device
to improve the sharpness like a very small stainless piano wire or
something like that.
http://www.pinholephotography.com.au/Theory/theory.html#OPTIMUM
If your 50mm guess is about right (looks to match the FOV), that needs
about a 0.28mm hole and the smallest pin available is 0.4mm So
50mm/0.5mm = f/100 or ideally more like 50mm/0.28mm = f/178. Hmm, OK I
used a wire brush strand to poke a hole and that's reasonably sharp.

I also tried cupping the foil into my D70 mount & the mirror hits it so
wide angle is not an option without mirror lockup.
Beach Bum - 10 Feb 2006 18:50 GMT
"Paul Furman" <paul-@-edgehill.net> wrote in message news:Eu3Hf.31401

> I tried the pinhole thing simply stretching a piece of foil over the
> open lens mount & poking with a thumbtack, no need to tape just bend to
> fit & hold in place. It seems I'd need a really tiny hole poking device
> to improve the sharpness like a very small stainless piano wire or
> something like that.

Yeah, my first hole was too big too.  I used a needle for my second attempt
and it was better, but not anything like tack sharp (pun intended).  I also
just stretched the foil over the open lens mount.

> http://www.pinholephotography.com.au/Theory/theory.html#OPTIMUM

Thanks for the link.  Good stuff.

> If your 50mm guess is about right (looks to match the FOV), that needs
> about a 0.28mm hole and the smallest pin available is 0.4mm So
> 50mm/0.5mm = f/100 or ideally more like 50mm/0.28mm = f/178. Hmm, OK I
> used a wire brush strand to poke a hole and that's reasonably sharp.

You could use just the very tip of a needle or pin.

> I also tried cupping the foil into my D70 mount & the mirror hits it so
> wide angle is not an option without mirror lockup.

Funny how once on the same track, people try the same things.  I have been
mentally experimenting with mirror lockup on the 20D.  You can press once,
get the mirror up, then place the foil closer to the sensor, press again to
take the photo.  Care must be taken not to have the mirror press the foil
against the sensor and shutter curtain.  I'm not brave enough to actually
try this. :)

It seems we might need to add glass to our pin-hole to help create a wider
angle. <g>

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Mark

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Paul Furman - 11 Feb 2006 16:45 GMT
Heh, OK here's my pinhole experements:
<http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Misc/photography/2006-02-10-pinhole>
-I might have done a little sharpening <g>

> "Paul Furman" <paul-@-edgehill.net> wrote in message news:Eu3Hf.31401
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> It seems we might need to add glass to our pin-hole to help create a wider
> angle. <g>
Beach Bum - 12 Feb 2006 00:01 GMT
> Heh, OK here's my pinhole experements:

<http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Misc/photography/2006-02-10-pinhol
e>
> -I might have done a little sharpening <g>

Dude, sweet!

I especially like this one.
http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Misc/photography/2006-02-10-pinhole&PG=
1&PIC=2


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Mark

Photos, Ideas & Opinions
http://www.marklauter.com/gallery

Jeremy Nixon - 10 Feb 2006 01:47 GMT
> But perhaps an easier way to think of the "f stops" or aperture settings
> is that each number is actually a fraction indicating the ratio of the
> "circle" of your lens opening versus the maximum area of your lens mount
> (not the maximum opening of your lense aperture).

No... it is a ratio of the focal length to the aperture size.

That is, on a 50mm lens, f/4 means an effective aperture opening of 12.5mm.

This is "effective" and not actual in the same way that the focal length
is effective rather than the actual, physical length of the lens -- the
"50mm" is the length the lens *would* be if it were a simple system (a
pinhole), and the aperture size is the size the aperture *would* be if it
were at the front of the lens rather than the back.

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Jeremy  |  jeremy@exit109.com

Ono Notim - 10 Feb 2006 13:23 GMT
Hi
Here is a link to what I personally consider to be a very helpful and
informative site.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm

I have no links whatsoever (except in my favourites (;<D to this site or
person or company)
I hope it helps some photographers out there.
Regards
O.N.
george - 11 Feb 2006 01:36 GMT
> I'm trying to understand apertures.  I know that if F2 @ 1/500s then F2.8
> @
> 1/250s and F4 @ 1/125s and F5.6 @ 1/60s..
>
> Where do the seemingly odd numbers 2.8 and 5.6 come from?  This must have
> something to do with PI and area of a circle?

Square root of 1 and 2 (and binary math (1,2,4,8,16,etc) multiples thereof
with a little rounding to keep things relatively simple):
1
1.4
2
2.8
4
5.6
8
11
16
22
32
45
64
90
128
 
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