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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2006

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6 vs 8 mega pixels

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kevin.court@gmail.com - 04 Feb 2006 19:25 GMT
Hi,

I'm trying to decide betwee the canon 350d and the nikon d70.  I'll bet
this is the first post on that topic ;o)

One thing I'm wondering.  Is there that much difference in the
megapixels?

I'd like to be able to print 16 x 20 prints or something in that range?

Thanks for you input.
G- Blank - 04 Feb 2006 20:15 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Thanks for you input.

Your welcome!

Heck you can print them any size you want, since the days of quality
are long over,- any size will do- & no one will know the difference.

Signature

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

greg_____photo(dot)com

Prometheus - 04 Feb 2006 20:17 GMT
>Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>One thing I'm wondering.  Is there that much difference in the
>megapixels?

In resolution, no; 8 is only 15% more than 6 in width; I can not comment
on relative noise performance which is more important.

>I'd like to be able to print 16 x 20 prints or something in that range?

Either resolution should be adequate.

>Thanks for you input.

See http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/mpmyth.htm

Read some reviews and decide what is important to you.

Handle the cameras to decide which feels best (if you are reluctant to
hold it, it does not matter how good it is).

Buy the body that suits the lenses you want to use.

With out knowing more about what you want I can not be more specific.

Signature

Ian             G8ILZ

C J Southern - 04 Feb 2006 21:19 GMT
> I'm trying to decide betwee the canon 350d and the nikon d70.  I'll bet
> this is the first post on that topic ;o)

I'll stay out of the Canon -v- Nikon debate, but on the Canon "side of
things", I'd encourage you to look closer at the Canon 20D - it's a much
sturdier camera, with a shutter life rated at twice that of the 350D.

I used to own a 350D - it took pictures that were great, but it just felt
too light and small. I ended up selling it (for a loss) and getting the
20D - I've never looked back for a second.
Jim Redelfs - 04 Feb 2006 23:46 GMT
> Is there that much difference in the megapixels?

Yes.

That is said having done digital image editing for only slightly longer than
the year I've enjoyed my 20D.

I really USE those extra mexapixels as "digital zoom" - I "zoom in" on the
image I wish to frame, and crop it - "clipping off" megapixels in the process.  
They are still suitable for gross enlargement.

More megapixels are better.
Signature

           :)
JR

Pete D - 05 Feb 2006 00:12 GMT
>> Is there that much difference in the megapixels?
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> More megapixels are better.

At 0.15 zoom it makes it pretty costly for that zoom, have you ordered your
5D?
Jim Redelfs - 05 Feb 2006 00:58 GMT
> At 0.15 zoom it makes it pretty costly for that zoom

You ain't just a-woofin'.   :)

At least you didn't flame me for not FRAMING my shots better.  Actually, I do
very little post-processing on most of my stuff.

> have you ordered your 5D?

Hell, I haven't even ordered the replacement for the KIT LENS that came with
my 20D yet!  I'm having too much fun taking GREAT photos with a camera that
may well be more camera than I really "needed".  I love working with the pics
on my Mac and putting them on-line.

Yesterday, I took some little theater shots.  Portraits, really.  Using a
SINGLE, good frame, with some common cropping, I created THREE, suitable for
printing, frames.  This was made possible by the "extra" megapixels created by
my 20D.  The Speedlite 580EX is GREAT!
Signature

           :)
JR

G.T. - 06 Feb 2006 02:44 GMT
>>At 0.15 zoom it makes it pretty costly for that zoom
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> printing, frames.  This was made possible by the "extra" megapixels created by
> my 20D.  The Speedlite 580EX is GREAT!

FRAMING KIT LENS GREAT SINGLE THREE GREAT!

Is that some kind of code?

Greg

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"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

Jim Redelfs - 06 Feb 2006 03:29 GMT
>> At least you didn't flame me for not FRAMING my shots better.
>> Actually, I do very little post-processing on most of my stuff.

>>> have you ordered your 5D?

>> Hell, I haven't even ordered the replacement for the KIT LENS
>> that came with my 20D yet!  I'm having too much fun taking GREAT
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> the "extra" megapixels created by my 20D.
>> The Speedlite 580EX is GREAT!

> FRAMING KIT LENS GREAT SINGLE THREE GREAT!
>
> Is that some kind of code?

Yes.

Read the words out loud, placing particular emphasis on those words in
all-uppercase.  The code will then be revealed.
Signature

           :)
JR

Prometheus - 05 Feb 2006 09:41 GMT
>> Is there that much difference in the megapixels?
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>image I wish to frame, and crop it - "clipping off" megapixels in the
>process.

WOW! 15% zoom, wonderful! I can make my 100mm lens look like 115mm, now
I can sell the 200mm because I do not need its bulk with such fantastic
zoom as 15%!

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Ian             G8ILZ

Jasen - 05 Feb 2006 10:47 GMT
>> Is there that much difference in the megapixels?
>
> Yes.

You must be dreaming.

> That is said having done digital image editing for only slightly longer
> than
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> image I wish to frame, and crop it - "clipping off" megapixels in the
> process.

An amazing 15% zoom.....unbelievable!  That's HUGE!!  not.

> They are still suitable for gross enlargement.
>
> More megapixels are better.

and an extra 15% is the answer huh?!
you are simply deluded that this makes any significant difference.
Jim Redelfs - 05 Feb 2006 14:51 GMT
> you are simply deluded that this makes any significant difference.

Aw right, AW RIGHT!!  You talked me OUT of my delusion.  Sheesh!   :\

Wait a minute!  ...  I STILL believe 8.2mp is "better" than 6.1.

Rats!  I must still be deluded.  Sorry.
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           :)
JR

Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 06 Feb 2006 06:23 GMT
>>you are simply deluded that this makes any significant difference.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Rats!  I must still be deluded.  Sorry.

Me too.

I have both 6.2 and 8.2 megapixel cameras (Canon 10D and 1D Mark II).
I did not think there would be much difference, but I feel that
the 8 megapixel gives that extra edge to make pictures a little
bit better.  I can do a little crop and still get a large print
at 300 ppi.  Of course the larger pixels of the 1D2 gives higher
signal to noise too.

I have made large prints from a 50% crop of a 6 megapixel
image.  In fact 16x18 inch prints from 3 megapixel crops.
(see: http://www.clarkvision.com/features/natures.best.win.2004 )
But it takes work.  The larger the print, the more you need to
work carefully, from upsizing to being careful not to introduce
artifacts.  The larger the number of pixels you start with,
the easier it is.  I find 16x20 inch prints are relatively
easy with 8 megapixel starting points, but I do Richardson-Lucy
image restoration to keep sharpness high.  See my digital workflow
at: http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/digitalworkflow

Roger
Photos at: http://www.clarkvision.com
cjcampbell - 06 Feb 2006 11:06 GMT
> >>you are simply deluded that this makes any significant difference.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> the 8 megapixel gives that extra edge to make pictures a little
> bit better.

Count me as deluded, too. Yes, it only gives you 15% more zoom. But
sometimes it makes all the difference. Whether it makes a big enough
difference enough of the time to make it worth the extra money is
something only the purchaser can decide. For some people it is worth
it.

I frequently do not keep a whole frame anyway, preferring to frame my
shots with a large waste area for manipulation later, especially if I
am shooting something with fast action like dancing. Landscapes and
portraits, of course, I tend to keep most if not all the frame. But for
fast-moving objects it is easier to make sure you got it all in the
frame and have room for adjusting composition, too. Ideally, I should
have a camera with at least 24 gigapixels and sensor the size of a
battleship, but unfortunately limitations of money and weight keep me
from what is duly mine.
Jim Redelfs - 07 Feb 2006 00:40 GMT
> Ideally, I should have a camera with at least 24 gigapixels and sensor
> the size of a battleship, but unfortunately limitations of money and
> weight keep me from what is duly mine.

ARGH!!  [ROFL]   :)

Where do I sign-up for THAT rig?  Hehehehe!
Signature

           :)
JR

Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 07 Feb 2006 05:25 GMT
>>I have both 6.2 and 8.2 megapixel cameras (Canon 10D and 1D Mark II).
>>I did not think there would be much difference, but I feel that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> something only the purchaser can decide. For some people it is worth
> it.

I should add, that I personally would not buy an 8-megapixel
camera if I had a 6 unless the 8 had other features I wanted.
While I do have an 8 MP 1D2, it is too big and heavy to take
all the time.  My 10D is much smaller, so I have taken
it on trips (even to other countries, leaving the 1D2 behind).
I have not chosen to upgrade to a 20D because the 10D has
most of the features I want.  But if a newer DSLR in the 10+
MP comes out with at least the speed of the 10D, I'll upgrade
if the price is similar to the 10D/20D.

Roger
Randall Ainsworth - 07 Feb 2006 13:22 GMT
> I should add, that I personally would not buy an 8-megapixel
> camera if I had a 6 unless the 8 had other features I wanted.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> MP comes out with at least the speed of the 10D, I'll upgrade
> if the price is similar to the 10D/20D.

Same here. I got the 10D when it first came out. When the 20D came out,
I looked at it and couldn't justify the price for just a couple MP.
JPS@no.komm - 07 Feb 2006 22:37 GMT
>> I should add, that I personally would not buy an 8-megapixel
>> camera if I had a 6 unless the 8 had other features I wanted.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Same here. I got the 10D when it first came out. When the 20D came out,
>I looked at it and couldn't justify the price for just a couple MP.

If it were only the 2 MPs, I could have skipped the upgrade, but I had
the 10D become incapacitated one too many times with its slow card and
buffer performance, that the speed of the 20D, along with its lower
high-ISO noise, made me go for it.  The successor to the 20D is going to
have a lot more than a couple more MPs to interest me.
Signature


<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
SMS - 08 Feb 2006 17:29 GMT
> If it were only the 2 MPs, I could have skipped the upgrade, but I had
> the 10D become incapacitated one too many times with its slow card and
> buffer performance, that the speed of the 20D, along with its lower
> high-ISO noise, made me go for it.  The successor to the 20D is going to
> have a lot more than a couple more MPs to interest me.

I'd be surprised if Canon went over 10 mega pixels on the 30D, with the
1.6 crop factor. Canon has always been very conservative about noise,
and they no doubt have been paying attention to what happened to camera
makers that tried to go to pixels that were sub-6 micron. Of course the
Canon CMOS sensor bas better noise characteristics than the Sony sensors
used in most of the other digital SLRs, so maybe they can get away with
going smaller.
Rich - 08 Feb 2006 23:28 GMT
>> If it were only the 2 MPs, I could have skipped the upgrade, but I had
>> the 10D become incapacitated one too many times with its slow card and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>used in most of the other digital SLRs, so maybe they can get away with
>going smaller.

How about a 20 megapixel 1.6, just to confuse the issue?
-Rich
JPS@no.komm - 08 Feb 2006 23:53 GMT
>How about a 20 megapixel 1.6, just to confuse the issue?

That might be useful for specific purposes (wildlife in bright light),
but would probably not be a camera I'd want to take with me to shoot up
a city at nightime, hand-held.  I'd probably want something like 12MP
1.0 for that (5D).

Signature

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Jim Redelfs - 09 Feb 2006 15:20 GMT
> How about a 20 megapixel 1.6, just to confuse the issue?

Put it in a point-and-shoot and you'd corner the market.  Given that most
consumers still believe that it's ALL about megapixels, it would do well.  
Most of these poor slobs still don't know how to easily reduce the size of an
image for emailing.

"Dear Grandma, here's a (8mb) photo of the baby with spaghetti sauce on her
face!"  Grandma, who's still on dial-up, wonders why it takes an hour or so to
download the pic.
Signature

           :)
JR

Rich - 09 Feb 2006 23:23 GMT
>> How about a 20 megapixel 1.6, just to confuse the issue?
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>face!"  Grandma, who's still on dial-up, wonders why it takes an hour or so to
>download the pic.

You even see complaints about this kind of thing on enthusiasts group.
You can easily take an 8 meg image, scale it to about 600x900, then
compress it down to 256,000 and it will still look fine on a computer
screen.  However, some insist on posting them as reduced size but
uncompressed and thus they are still over 1 meg.
-Rich
cjcampbell - 10 Feb 2006 03:52 GMT
> > How about a 20 megapixel 1.6, just to confuse the issue?
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> --
>             :)

Hey! I resemble that remark.

I have trouble even getting iDisk to work, but I suspect it has
something more to do with our firewall here than it does with my
incompetence.
Rich - 05 Feb 2006 19:33 GMT
>>> Is there that much difference in the megapixels?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>An amazing 15% zoom.....unbelievable!  That's HUGE!!  not.

You should take shots with a 6 meg and 8 meg of the same subject.  
Take a look at where detail goes extinct on shots of things with fine
detail.  Also, take a look at the relative sharpness of the details
visible and compare them.  Every review I've seen shows the same
thing, even with crude magazine reproduction;  At 8 meg you see more
detail than with 6.  This is one reason the Rebel XT consistently
scores higher than the Nikon D50 and D70, even though the D50 has less
high ISO noise.
-Rich

John Meyer - 05 Feb 2006 02:33 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> One thing I'm wondering.  Is there that much difference in the
> megapixels?

Between 6 and 8, no.

> I'd like to be able to print 16 x 20 prints or something in that range?

Basically:
6 megapixel: 3008 x 2000
10.02" x 6.67" x 300ppi
15.04" x 10.00" x 200ppi
20.05" x 13.34" x 150ppi

8 megapixel: 3264 x 2448
10.88" x 8.16" x 300ppi
16.32" x 12.24" x 200ppi
21.76" x 16.32" x 150ppi

200ppi or more is optimal for printing. 150ppi is doable. At that point,
other factors such as the nature of the image, the quality of the lens,
etc. come into play.

If you decide a 6mp camera is suitable, I would also encourage you to
look at the Pentax istDS2. By comparison, the 350D feels and handles
like a toy brick; the D70 like a well-made brick. ;-)

Signature

One is always considered mad when one perfects something that others can
not grasp. - Ed Wood

Pete D - 05 Feb 2006 04:01 GMT
>> Hi,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> look at the Pentax istDS2. By comparison, the 350D feels and handles
> like a toy brick; the D70 like a well-made brick. ;-)

Second the above, the difference is negligable. Oh and the Ds or Ds2 is/are
great little cameras, I did replace my "kit" lens with a Pentax 16-45mm ED
AL, sweet combo.
Randall Ainsworth - 05 Feb 2006 04:49 GMT
> I'd like to be able to print 16 x 20 prints or something in that range?

If you're careful about creating the image, 6MP will go to 16x20
easily. I have a number of them on my walls.
Jasen - 05 Feb 2006 04:54 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Thanks for you input.

Doesn't really matter the as size difference is insignificant at this
resolution.  If it was 6 versus 10MP, I'd go 10 anyday.
I think you ought to make your mind up over which features and functionality
are better for you between the brands rather than megapixels if that is your
choice.  Personally, if you are in no rush to buy, I'd save your pennies for
the next round of new DSLRs which will probably have higher MPs if that is
what you are really after.
Jim Redelfs - 05 Feb 2006 14:46 GMT
> I'd save your pennies for the next round of new DSLRs which will
> probably have higher MPs if that is what you are really after.

This is probably the best advice I've read so far.  The 20D model (8.2mp and
my camera of choice a little over a year ago) is over a year-and-a-half old
and probably due for discontinuance soon.  It's replacement will no doubt be
more capable with, among other things, more MPs.  At that time, you'll
probably be able to get a new 20D at a discounted price.
Signature

           :)
JR

Rich - 05 Feb 2006 19:26 GMT
>> I'd save your pennies for the next round of new DSLRs which will
>> probably have higher MPs if that is what you are really after.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>more capable with, among other things, more MPs.  At that time, you'll
>probably be able to get a new 20D at a discounted price.

Or they'll do what Nikon did, release a 20D version of the D70s
with minor improvements, all designed to shore up a dropping price.
-Rich
Jasen - 06 Feb 2006 00:20 GMT
>>> I'd save your pennies for the next round of new DSLRs which will
>>> probably have higher MPs if that is what you are really after.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> with minor improvements, all designed to shore up a dropping price.
> -Rich

Probable but I would doubt it but you never know do you.  I suspect the next
Nikon will try to have at least 8 if not 10MP, but err towards the 10.
Sony will no doubt just the 8 but may have a 9xi Minolta equivalent as a
10MP or higher to try and compete with the pro canons and nikons....maybe
I'm wrong??
SMS - 06 Feb 2006 18:23 GMT
> Or they'll do what Nikon did, release a 20D version of the D70s
> with minor improvements, all designed to shore up a dropping price.

The 20D pricing has been pretty steady. In fact, the current Amazon
promotion of 5% extra off, finally has brought it about $80 less than I
paid about 16 months ago, until then it was actually higher.

The EOS-30D (or whatever they call it) will almost certainly increase
the resolution to about the same as the Nikon D200.

Canon is also rumored to be introducing the EOS-3000D to compete against
the Nikon D50, but the alleged specifications don't look too good, it's
almost a de-featured EOS-300D.

IMVAIO, Canon should shift the EOS-350D and EOS-20D down $150-200, and
sell the EOS-350D for $600, the EOS-20D for $1000, and introduce the
EOS-30D at around $1300, rather than drop the 20D completely. Forget
about the EOS-3000D unless they can sell it for $400.
SMS - 06 Feb 2006 17:45 GMT
> One thing I'm wondering.  Is there that much difference in the
> megapixels?

Not really, except if you're making exceptionally large prints, such as
16" x 20"

> I'd like to be able to print 16 x 20 prints or something in that range?

For that size, you're better off with the higher resolution of the Rebel XT.

The short answer is this that in terms of image quality, the Rebel XT
slightly edges out the D70s, especially at higher ISO. The Rebel XT is
the better choice if you're not already committed to the Nikon lens
mount, unless you absolutely need spot metering. The clincher, in your
case, is the desire to make very large prints, since the extra
resolution of the Rebel XT will make a noticeable difference. OTOH, the
D70s "feels" better due to the type of plastic used in the body.

Steve
"http://digitalslrinfo.com/"
cjcampbell - 07 Feb 2006 01:02 GMT
> > One thing I'm wondering.  Is there that much difference in the
> > megapixels?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> resolution of the Rebel XT will make a noticeable difference. OTOH, the
> D70s "feels" better due to the type of plastic used in the body.

16 x 20 is not all that large of a print and well within the resolution
capabilities of even 5 megapixels. The thing is, cropping actually can
blow up a section of a frame much larger than even 16 x 20, so this is
a consideration.

I went with the Nikon for two reasons, neither of them having to do
with spot metering. The first, and primary, reason was simple
ergonomics. I liked the feel and handling much better. The Nikon felt
like a well-used tool. The Canon felt awkward to me. Now, that is
simply my very subjective opinion. I am sure that the Canon feels much
better to other people. But I feel it is actually a more important
factor than 2 megapixels. A camera that is comfortable and easier to
control will produce far better pictures than one that is awkward, no
matter what the technical merits of one camera over another are. 8
megapixels of blurry picture is worth a heck of a lot less than 6
megapixels of razor sharp. So I think ergonomics is at least as
important as megapixels.

The second reason was, well, the Canon just did not seem to me to be
built as well. The D70 is built like a little pillbox. Actual use has
borne this out. I have dropped the camera a couple times, once onto
concrete and once onto a marble floor. It has been blown over on its
tripod onto a rock. Aside from a small scratch, it is just like new. It
is truly an amazing piece of equipment.

So, if you want to make your decision solely on the basis of
megapixels, then by all means get the Canon. Millions of Canon users
can't be wrong. It is a great camera. But remember that megapixels are
not the only thing affecting picture quality.

Some pundits are predicting that Nikon will this year introduce a 10
megapixel camera between the D70 and the D200. Perhaps. We shall see.
Personally, I don't see a great need for this camera. Actually, I have
to wonder whether Canon has not got too many models in production,
despite their greater production capability. I have not heard of
quality control beginning to suffer, yet, but from a purely business
standpoint I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand it helps
Canon grab shelf space -- an excellent marketing strategy. On the other
hand it can be confusing for consumers and spread your resources a
little thin. You have to strike exactly the right balance. Personally,
if I were the chairman of Canon, I probably would axe one model. I am
not really sure which one. Instead, it looks as if Canon intends to
actually add a couple models. I guess that's why their execs get the
big bucks, making tough decisions like that.
 
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