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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / January 2006

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dslr vs 35mm film lens viability

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Denton - 27 Jan 2006 07:15 GMT
Hi all...
I have started to put together a lens collection to use with my new Rebel
XT. Currently have the kit lens, a 100-300mm usm, 50mm f1.8, 24mm f2.8 and
have a 20-35mm usm lens comming. Other than the 100-300 lens and the kit
lens, the other ones seem to be rated fairly highly.
What I am trying to determine is the lens quality is more critical in terms
of picture quality for a 1.6 dslr sensor vs. a full frame dslr sensor or
35mm film body.
It seems to me that the lens quality would be more critical for smaller
sized dlsr sensors.
Steve Wolfe - 27 Jan 2006 08:00 GMT
> I have started to put together a lens collection to use with my new Rebel
> XT. Currently have the kit lens, a 100-300mm usm, 50mm f1.8, 24mm f2.8 and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> It seems to me that the lens quality would be more critical for smaller
> sized dlsr sensors.

  The smaller the individual photo receptor sites, the higher resolution
you need from a lens.  That's one of the reasons for going full-frame - as
an example, the 5D, even with 12 megapixels, still has larger receptor sites
than the 20D at 8 mp.  Because of that, you don't need *quite* as much
resolution from your lens.

 This really shouldn't surprise anyone with more than a passing familiarity
with photography, since going to a larger negative has, since the inception
of photography, been the method for obtaining greater detail despite
limitations in both optics and film.  To put some numbers to it, some of the
dSLR sensors today are theoretically capable of resolving 100 lp/mm.  If you
look at the gigapixel project, their design goals were, I believe, just a
modest 30 lp/mm or 40 lp/mm over the film plane - but because there's such a
large film plane, that works out to nearly unfathomable amounts of recorded
detail.

 If you want to compare the resolution requirements of film and digital, it
depends on what kind of film you're talking about.  If you're shooting some
400-ISO film that you bought at the supermarket, then the digital sensor
will provide far more resolution, and hence take more advantage of a
high-quality lens.  If you're talking about an ultra-fine grain, low-speed
slide film, then it's going to have the capability to resolve more than all
(or nearly all) dSLR cameras today.

 It should also be noted that in the situations under which most
photographs are taken, an increase in resolution of either the lens or the
film/sensor won't do any good, because the camera movement and/or other
factors (such as diffraction) will limit the overall resolution anyway.

 As for your DR XT, you're not wasing good glass on it, sticking a good
lens on it isn't going to disappoint.  Besides, there are lots of
differences between a mediocre lens and a good lens other than just
resolution.  Even getting aside from the non-visual aspects such as build
quality and autofocus speed, you still have contrast, color, resistance to
flare, the quality of bokeh, the shape of the aperture (visible in
out-of-focus highlights), barrel/pincushion distortion, presence (or lack)
of coma, astigmatism, spherical aberration, and various other deficiencies.

steve
cjcampbell - 28 Jan 2006 07:34 GMT
>   If you want to compare the resolution requirements of film and digital, it
> depends on what kind of film you're talking about.  If you're shooting some
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> slide film, then it's going to have the capability to resolve more than all
> (or nearly all) dSLR cameras today.

I see this said a lot, but so far I have had to take the word of people
on this board for it. Are there really any comparison shots with film
vs. DSLR that prove this?
Skip M - 28 Jan 2006 14:08 GMT
>>   If you want to compare the resolution requirements of film and digital,
>> it
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> on this board for it. Are there really any comparison shots with film
> vs. DSLR that prove this?

Not a comparison of images, but you might find this informative:
http://clarkvision.com/imagedetail/film.vs.digital.1.html

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Angus Manwaring - 29 Jan 2006 20:11 GMT
On 28-Jan-06 07:34:43, cjcampbell said

>>   If you want to compare the resolution requirements of film and digital,
>>   it
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> slide film, then it's going to have the capability to resolve more than all
>> (or nearly all) dSLR cameras today.

>I see this said a lot, but so far I have had to take the word of people
>on this board for it. Are there really any comparison shots with film
>vs. DSLR that prove this?

And anyway, there is no grain on slide film.  :p

(ducks and runs).     :)

                 All the best,
                       Angus Manwaring.       (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)

I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Game reviews by Amiga players http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/AGDB.html
Steve Wolfe - 30 Jan 2006 02:45 GMT
>>   If you want to compare the resolution requirements of film and digital,
>> it
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> on this board for it. Are there really any comparison shots with film
> vs. DSLR that prove this?

 I wasn't able to find links to the images I've seen, but in real,
well-designed apples-to-apples tests, the best slide films have
out-performed the dSLR images.  I'll keep my eyes open and see if I can find
them again.  So many of the comparisons are poorly thought out or executed.

steve
John A. Stovall - 27 Jan 2006 13:18 GMT
Once more we see the urban legend of different lenses for digital than
film.

Just get the best lenses out there and don't worry about it. Your
lenses are going to be better than you are for a long time.

**********************************************************

"A combat photographer should be able to make you see the
color of blood in black and white"

                    David Douglas Duncan
                Speaking on why in Vietnam
             he worked only in black and white
     http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/online/ddd/
Stacey - 29 Jan 2006 22:05 GMT
> Your
> lenses are going to be better than you are for a long time.

And you know this because?

Signature


 Stacey

John A. Stovall - 29 Jan 2006 22:08 GMT
>> Your
>> lenses are going to be better than you are for a long time.
>
>And you know this because?

Because, if he was that good, he wouldn't be posting here.

*********************************************************

"It looked like the sort of book described in library
catalogues as "slightly foxed", although it would be
more honest to admit that it looked as though it had
been badgered, wolved and possibly beared as well."

                     _Light Fantastic_
                      Terry Pratchett
Stacey - 29 Jan 2006 22:24 GMT
>>> Your
>>> lenses are going to be better than you are for a long time.
>>
>>And you know this because?
>
> Because, if he was that good, he wouldn't be posting here.

So then by your logic, any lens is better than someone who posts to a
photography forum? Sorry I don't buy that one as you have no idea if this
guy can take good photographs or not.

Signature


 Stacey

Jeremy Nixon - 29 Jan 2006 22:57 GMT
> So then by your logic, any lens is better than someone who posts to a
> photography forum?

I think a more precise statement would have been "Because, if he was that
good, he wouldn't be posting *that question* here."

Signature

Jeremy  |  jeremy@exit109.com

Stacey - 31 Jan 2006 00:58 GMT
>> So then by your logic, any lens is better than someone who posts to a
>> photography forum?
>
> I think a more precise statement would have been "Because, if he was that
> good, he wouldn't be posting *that question* here."

 Still don't buy that.

A really good photographer might easily ask that same question. You can say
in one way it's easier to design a good lens for a small sensor and it
other ways it's harder. One lens might have great central performance (and
poor edges) and work good on a crop dSLR, and another that is better across
the whole full frame might not be as good in the center. There is no cut
and dry answer to the question. To say "Buy expensive lenses and they will
be better than you" is a silly statment and explains nothing.
Signature


 Stacey

wilt - 27 Jan 2006 19:19 GMT
>>What I am trying to determine is the lens quality is more critical in terms
of picture quality for a 1.6 dslr sensor vs. a full frame dslr sensor
or
35mm film body. It seems to me that the lens quality would be more
critical for smaller
sized dlsr sensors. <<

Lens quality should have a correlation simply to FRAME SIZE as has been
proven in 100 years of film photography...a large format lens does not
need nearly as high spatial resolution performance as a microfilm lens!

In the context of crop vs. FF digital, the factor is that crop uses
LESS of the image circle of an lens than FF format, so the lens need
not perform as highly out at the edges of the image circle.  So smaller
is less demanding in this regard!
wilt - 27 Jan 2006 19:21 GMT
Neglected also to deal with the issue that wider lenses are needed to
get same FOV in crop format as in FF format.  And wider lenses seem to
exhibit more Chromatic Abberation, so if you want to have less CA
appear in the frame you need better correction in the lens design.
Alan Browne - 29 Jan 2006 20:06 GMT
> Hi all...
> I have started to put together a lens collection to use with my new Rebel
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> It seems to me that the lens quality would be more critical for smaller
> sized dlsr sensors.

Beyond resolution (Wolfe and wilt replies), there are other qualities in
higher end lenses which include build, faster apertures, constant
aperture with zoom, internal zoom and focus, color rendition, proneness
to vignetting (no issue with 1.6x crop), proneness to flare and some
others I've likely missed.  Avoid high ratio zooms.

Since cameras continue to rise in resolution, and at least with Canon
there are FF sensors, it makes sense to err on the side of resolution
and all qualities that improve the image in your lens selections.

With the D200 touting 10 Mpix, and rumors of a new "prosumer" Canon
ahead of PMA 2006, moreso.  Even if you're happy with 8 Mpix, you _know_
you'll be lusting for 10 or 12, or whatever Canon do.

Cheers,
Alan.

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