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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / January 2006Nikon ED Lenses versus G Lenses
Do you think the quality difference between Nikon "ED" and "G" lenses are worth the price difference? The ED lenses are touted to be better, and they are certainly heavier. They seem to have more glass. I am leaning heavily toward buying the "ED"'s. Thanks, Sandy > Do you think the quality difference between Nikon "ED" and "G" lenses are > worth the price difference? The ED lenses are touted to be better, and they > are certainly heavier. They seem to have more glass. I am leaning heavily > toward buying the "ED"'s. ED means that the lens uses extra-low-dispersion glass. G means the lens has no aperture ring and is not fully AI-S backwards compatible. The two are not related or mutually exclusive and really have nothing to do with each other.  SignatureJeremy | jeremy@exit109.com > > Do you think the quality difference between Nikon "ED" and "G" lenses are > > worth the price difference? The ED lenses are touted to be better, and they [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > are not related or mutually exclusive and really have nothing to do with > each other. And some lenses are both. SignatureDavid Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/> RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/> Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/> > Do you think the quality difference between Nikon "ED" and "G" lenses are > worth the price difference? The ED lenses are touted to be better, and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Sandy The question is really only relevant to, I think, one lens- the 70-300, of which there are G and ED versions- the G lacks an aperture ring and ED elements, whereas the ED has both. I've seen some awful results off of the G lens- then again, the ED doesn't seem too stellar either. Nikon don't have "series" lenses- the top-end 70-200mm is both ED and G and I don't think anyone is suggesting that lens is a budget item. That said, the 85 f1.4 isn't touted as ED or G, and is a phenomenal lens. Martin. >> Do you think the quality difference between Nikon "ED" and "G" lenses are >> worth the price difference? The ED lenses are touted to be better, and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Martin. > As you said, most people ask this question about the 70-300. I think the > ED has a better lens mount and may be built better, but neither gets rave [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > both lenses to see if they meet your requirements, and to see if you can > see a difference between the two. > >> Do you think the quality difference between Nikon "ED" and "G" lenses are > >> worth the price difference? The ED lenses are touted to be better, and [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > both lenses to see if they meet your requirements, and to see if you can > > see a difference between the two. Can anyone suggest another AF brand Nikon mount lens that would be better quality? Sandy >Can anyone suggest another AF brand Nikon mount lens that would be better >quality? Sure, most would agree the 70-200mm f/2.8G ED-IF AF-S VR Zoom-Nikkor is a stellar performer, though not anywhere near the same price class. It is worth it to many of us though. You should consider a lens such as this a long term investment. http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=2139 http://www.naturfotograf.com/AFS70-200VR_rev00.html SignatureEd Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet2@EdwardG.Ruf.com) See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html > Can anyone suggest another AF brand Nikon mount lens that would be better > quality? > > Sandy The older Nikon 75-300mm f/4.5-5.6 AF was better than the current 70/75-300 offerings. > " > > The older Nikon 75-300mm f/4.5-5.6 AF was better than the current 70/75-300 > offerings. Thanks for the tip. My research would seem to substantiate your opinion. I was told that using the AF older Nikon lenses requires one to "shut off"? something on the aperure ring so the DSLR can use it accurately. Use of the AI Nikon lenses requires setting the Nikon DSLR to "M", and getting your light reading independently. Sandy > I was told that using the AF older Nikon lenses requires one to "shut off"? > something on the aperure ring so the DSLR can use it accurately. On a lens with an aperture ring, you set the lens to its minimum aperture and leave it there, which allows the aperture to be set by the camera body. Most (all?) of the autofocus lenses with aperture rings have a "lock" on the ring to keep it in that position. On the lower-end bodies that require the aperture to be set by the camera, you must do this in order for the lens to work. On the D2-series (and possibly the D200?) you can use the aperture ring itself in A or M mode if you want. On the G lenses, with no aperture ring, which unfortunately seems to be what Nikon is making now, this obviously doesn't matter. Those lenses are always set at minimum aperture. If you're curious, the reason the lenses have to be set at minimum aperture for automatic operation is this: when you take a picture the camera has to stop down the lens to the chosen aperture at the time of exposure. It does this mechanically, with a lever. The lever will only stop down the aperture to the point that the aperture ring is set, but no further, which enables manual operation where the camera doesn't know what aperture the lens is set for -- it can say "stop down to whatever is selected" by moving the lever all the way. So, the only way the camera has the ability to stop down to any aperture is if the lens is set at the minimum aperture. Then, the camera can select any aperture according to how far it moves the lever. The new (D2, D200) cameras can't do this with AI and AI-S lenses; with those, you must set the aperture from the lens aperture ring. This is because the new cameras don't differentiate at all between AI and AI-S, and the aperture levers work differently. So you can't use P and S modes, but then, who uses those anyway? > Use of the AI Nikon lenses requires setting the Nikon DSLR to "M", and > getting your light reading independently. This is not necessary with the D2-series and D200; they can meter with AI and AI-S lenses. With the others, yes, you lose the light meter due to having no mechanical coupling and no electrical communication with the lens -- the camera has no way of knowing what aperture the lens is set for, or how far it's stopped down, so it can't determine exposure. (It could use stop-down metering with DOF preview if Nikon wanted to, but they evidently don't.) SignatureJeremy | jeremy@exit109.com Excellent exposition of information, Jeremy. Thanks. Sandy > > I was told that using the AF older Nikon lenses requires one to "shut off"? > > something on the aperure ring so the DSLR can use it accurately. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > (It could use stop-down metering with DOF preview if Nikon wanted to, > but they evidently don't.) The D200 allows metering with old unchipped lenses by manually entering the widest f/stop in the menu, as I understand. I think aperture & shutter priority modes should work with that information. I'm not clear about lenses that require stop-down metering. >>I was told that using the AF older Nikon lenses requires one to "shut off"? >>something on the aperure ring so the DSLR can use it accurately. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > (It could use stop-down metering with DOF preview if Nikon wanted to, > but they evidently don't.) > The D200 allows metering with old unchipped lenses by manually entering > the widest f/stop in the menu, as I understand. I think aperture & > shutter priority modes should work with that information. Aperture priority works; shutter priority and programmed auto are not available because the camera cannot set the lens aperture. SignatureJeremy | jeremy@exit109.com >>The D200 allows metering with old unchipped lenses by manually entering >>the widest f/stop in the menu, as I understand. I think aperture & >>shutter priority modes should work with that information. > > Aperture priority works; shutter priority and programmed auto are not > available because the camera cannot set the lens aperture. So then you are stuck with wide open as the only aperture? As I understand, unchipped AI lenses need the chip to tell what the max aperture is being stopped down (and the focal length?) from but the D200 allows you to enter that in the camera. >>>The D200 allows metering with old unchipped lenses by manually entering >>>the widest f/stop in the menu, as I understand. I think aperture & [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > aperture is being stopped down (and the focal length?) from but the D200 > allows you to enter that in the camera. You're not stuck at wide open, because once you've set the lens info into the menu (the D2-series and, apparently, the D200) you set the aperture on the lens normally and the camera sets the shutter speed (in A mode) as it normally would. As an example of this, the D2 will tell you the number of stops away from wide open you are (in the top info LCD) as you vary the aperture on the lens. Bob >You're not stuck at wide open, because once you've set the lens info into >the menu (the D2-series and, apparently, the D200) you set the aperture on >the lens normally and the camera sets the shutter speed (in A mode) as it >normally would. As an example of this, the D2 will tell you the number of >stops away from wide open you are (in the top info LCD) as you vary the >aperture on the lens. For center-weighted exposure and for the spot meter, the camera doesn't to know the actual aperture. The camera only needs to know the relative position of the aperture ring compared to wide open. This is the way Ai has always worked. The only exception is that some low-end cameras, including the F80, and the digital cameras derived from it, the D100, D70 and D50, cannot sense the position of the aperture ring, but try to control the lens using the chip inside the lens. Most Ai lenses don't have chip so this is not going to work. However, for matrix metering, the camera does need to know the actual aperture. Some of the early cameras with matrix metering, such as the FA and the F4 can get the aperture from a small bump in the lens mount. Starting with the F5, Nikon doesn't do that anymore. However, starting with the F6, you can enter the aperture manually. So, if you can live with center-weighted or spot, don't need to enter the aperture. (At least that is the theory. I don't own an F6, D2X, or a D200). SignatureThat was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make. -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency > So then you are stuck with wide open as the only aperture? As I > understand, unchipped AI lenses need the chip to tell what the max > aperture is being stopped down (and the focal length?) from but the D200 > allows you to enter that in the camera. No. The camera can't set the lens aperture, but you can set the aperture on the lens. The camera needs to set the lens aperture for shutter priority and program modes, and since it can't, you can't use those modes. SignatureJeremy | jeremy@exit109.com >> So then you are stuck with wide open as the only aperture? As I >> understand, unchipped AI lenses need the chip to tell what the max [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >on the lens. The camera needs to set the lens aperture for shutter priority >and program modes, and since it can't, you can't use those modes. So, how does a G series lens work on a non-auto body? In computerese, what is "the default setting?" Wide open? Completely stopped down? Whatever setting it got last from an auto-body? This is probably a way-out question: Can you short out two of the metal control contacts that connect the lens to the body, as a way to instructing the lens to use a given f-stop? Father Kodak > So, how does a G series lens work on a non-auto body? In computerese, > what is "the default setting?" Wide open? Completely stopped down? If you mean a body that can't set the lens aperture, I don't know (I don't have one to try it) but my guess is that, since those lenses are basically just always set at minimum aperture, that they would be completely stopped down at the time of exposure. I get the feeling, though, that there may be some confusion here. Assuming a normal AI or later lens, and a camera that supports them, the lens can always be stopped down at the time of exposure to whatever aperture is selected on the lens aperture ring -- even if the camera doesn't know what aperture is selected. What the new bodies can't do is *select* the aperture on an AI-S lens; that is, you can't dial in f/8 on the control dial on the camera and have it work, and you can't put the camera into programmed auto and have it work. You must set the aperture on the lens aperture ring. This was *not* the case with older film bodies that were made for AI-S lenses. They could have shutter-priority and programmed auto modes and were able to set the lens aperture on AI-S lenses, provided that the lens was set at minimum aperture. The new, digital cameras, despite being able to use AI-S lenses and meter with them, cannot do this. The reason is that the new cameras do not know the difference between AI and AI-S lenses, and treat them the same. > This is probably a way-out question: Can you short out two of the > metal control contacts that connect the lens to the body, as a way to > instructing the lens to use a given f-stop? No. The electrical contacts aren't used for aperture setting. SignatureJeremy | jeremy@exit109.com > I get the feeling, though, that there may be some confusion here. Yep, thanks for clarifying. > Assuming > a normal AI or later lens, and a camera that supports them, the lens can > always be stopped down at the time of exposure to whatever aperture is > selected on the lens aperture ring -- even if the camera doesn't know what > aperture is selected. But a D70 is incapable of metering, D200 can meter with these. > What the new bodies can't do is *select* the aperture > on an AI-S lens; that is, you can't dial in f/8 on the control dial on the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > were able to set the lens aperture on AI-S lenses, provided that the lens > was set at minimum aperture. OK so a D200 can stop down to what the ring is set to but nothing more. It does seem a shame to omit this ability but I usually use aperture priority anyways. > The new, digital cameras, despite being able > to use AI-S lenses and meter with them, cannot do this. The reason is > that the new cameras do not know the difference between AI and AI-S lenses, > and treat them the same. So, AI is the 'oldest' technology and it's AI-S (the somewhat newer versions) that don't work as well with the newest cameras? I've got an AI-P 45mm lens which I beleieve is the equivalent of an AI with added chip; it works on a D70. >So, AI is the 'oldest' technology and it's AI-S (the somewhat newer >versions) that don't work as well with the newest cameras? The oldest technology doesn't really have a name. Those are the lenses produced from 1959 to around 1977. You can't even use most of them them on modern camera without physically modifying the lens (it simply won't fit). >I've got an >AI-P 45mm lens which I beleieve is the equivalent of an AI with added >chip; it works on a D70. The cameras that don't meter with Ai/Ais lenses require a lens that contains a CPU. (And then there are the lenses made for the F3AF, but those are quite rare). SignatureThat was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make. -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency > But a D70 is incapable of metering, D200 can meter with these. Right. A D70 lacks the coupling that lets it meter. Of course, the lenses still work, because the camera can still instruct the lens to stop down to whatever aperture is selected, even though it doesn't know what that aperture is. > OK so a D200 can stop down to what the ring is set to but nothing more. > It does seem a shame to omit this ability but I usually use aperture > priority anyways. Yeah. The camera, in order to set the lens aperture, would need to know when an AI-S lens is mounted as opposed to an AI lens, since the stop-down lever action is different between the two. Also, the aperture should always be set on the lens itself with AI lenses since the camera can be off by as much as a third of a stop when doing it. > So, AI is the 'oldest' technology and it's AI-S (the somewhat newer > versions) that don't work as well with the newest cameras? It's the other way around. Except that AI isn't the oldest; pre-AI lenses are of course older, but AI are the oldest that work unmodified with the new cameras. And there is no functional difference between AI and AI-S on the current camera bodies. They work identically. The main difference between the two that would matter is the means by which the camera sets the lens aperture -- if the camera knew the difference between AI and AI-S, it would be able to set the lens aperture on AI-S lenses, and would be able to use shutter-priority and programmed auto on those lenses, too. > I've got an AI-P 45mm lens which I beleieve is the equivalent of an AI > with added chip; it works on a D70. It's technically equivalent to an AI-S lens with a chip. If you put a matrix chip in an AI-S lens, you can set the aperture from the camera and use shutter-priority and programmed auto modes, even if the chip is added later by a third party. You don't retrofit AI lenses with chips, and as I said above you always set the aperture on the lens itself with AI lenses. SignatureJeremy | jeremy@exit109.com >> So, how does a G series lens work on a non-auto body? In computerese, >> what is "the default setting?" Wide open? Completely stopped down? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >just always set at minimum aperture, that they would be completely stopped >down at the time of exposure. Yes, that is right. I guess that if you mount them a couple of degrees rotated (i.e. not fully mounted) you should be able to trick the lens into operating wide open or even at intermediate apertures. >This was *not* the case with older film bodies that were made for AI-S >lenses. They could have shutter-priority and programmed auto modes and >were able to set the lens aperture on AI-S lenses, provided that the lens >was set at minimum aperture. There are not that many cameras that can do program mode and shutter priority mode with Ais lenses. The F4 doesn't do it. The FA does, but the FA also does it with Ai lenses. (I think that program mode with Ais lenses is limited to FA, FG, and the F301). Of course, the F2 can do shutter priority with non-Ai lenses as well. :-) >The new, digital cameras, despite being able >to use AI-S lenses and meter with them, cannot do this. The reason is >that the new cameras do not know the difference between AI and AI-S lenses, >and treat them the same. I don't think there are any Nikon cameras that enable or disable feature based on the distinction between Ai and Ais. With the exception of selecting high-speed program modes automatically with longer Ais lenses. >> This is probably a way-out question: Can you short out two of the >> metal control contacts that connect the lens to the body, as a way to >> instructing the lens to use a given f-stop? > >No. The electrical contacts aren't used for aperture setting. If the electrical contacts are not used for setting the aperture, how does a camera set the aperture on a G lens (or a CPU lens locked in the smallest aperture)? SignatureThat was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make. -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency >> The new, digital cameras, despite being able to use AI-S lenses and >> meter with them, cannot do this. The reason is that the new cameras [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > feature based on the distinction between Ai and Ais. With the exception > of selecting high-speed program modes automatically with longer Ais lenses. It's not a feature that is on or off, it's a difference in how the aperture is selected. With AI, the movement of the aperture stop-down lever is linear with the amount the aperture blades move, but not linear with the number of f-stops of change. With AI-S, the movement is linear with the f-stops. So, in order to set the lens aperture, the camera would need to know which kind of lens is mounted, to know when an AI-S lens is being used and therefore when it can do the aperture selection. Technically it could also do it on an AI lens if it knew how, but it wouldn't. I'm not at all familiar with the older camera models enough to know which ones were capable of what. > If the electrical contacts are not used for setting the aperture, how > does a camera set the aperture on a G lens (or a CPU lens locked in > the smallest aperture)? The same way it does it on any other lens. The aperture is set by the camera by deciding how far to move the stop-down lever, according to how many stops below wide-open it wants to set the lens. SignatureJeremy | jeremy@exit109.com >It's not a feature that is on or off, it's a difference in how the >aperture is selected. With AI, the movement of the aperture stop-down [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Technically it could also do it on an AI lens if it knew how, but it >wouldn't. Except that the only cameras that do program mode with Ais lenses (the FA, the FG, and the F-301) can also do it with Ai lenses. I guess that they simply use the light meter to determine what happened with an Ai lens. >> If the electrical contacts are not used for setting the aperture, how >> does a camera set the aperture on a G lens (or a CPU lens locked in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >camera by deciding how far to move the stop-down lever, according to >how many stops below wide-open it wants to set the lens. My guess is that the camera gets feedback from the lens. There is no other reasonable explanation why just about all recent cameras can handle program mode with chipped lenses, and none can do the same with Ais lenses. SignatureThat was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make. -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency >> Technically it could also do it on an AI lens if it knew how, but it >> wouldn't. > > Except that the only cameras that do program mode with Ais lenses (the FA, > the FG, and the F-301) can also do it with Ai lenses. I guess that they > simply use the light meter to determine what happened with an Ai lens. No, they can do it because they know how to handle the different stop-down action of AI lenses. I say the new cameras "wouldn't" do it because it would not be accurate and would thus be better not done; and also because they would have to add another mechanical feature, and would almost certainly not do it for cost reasons. >> The same way it does it on any other lens. The aperture is set by the >> camera by deciding how far to move the stop-down lever, according to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > reasonable explanation why just about all recent cameras can handle program > mode with chipped lenses, and none can do the same with Ais lenses. No, the reason is as I said -- it doesn't know the difference between AI and AI-S, and thus can't know how to correctly set the aperture. If a matrix chip is present, the current method, which is AI-S, is used. They don't include the ability for the camera to determine AI from AI-S, probably for cost reasons, since it would be important only to a tiny minority of customers. The only advantage it would have on modern cameras would be making shutter-priority and programmed auto modes work, and how many people who are into old manual lenses care about those modes? I actually wish the camera could remove them from the "rotation" that is selected with the mode setting, since I never use them and doubt that I ever will. Having "mode" just toggle between A and M would be ideal. So if you use manual lenses and still want P and S modes, look into having chips installed in your lenses (provided they are AI-S). SignatureJeremy | jeremy@exit109.com OK, I am thoroughly confused by this thread. I was not the original poster, but I did reply to someone with the question about the "default settings" of a G lens on a non-auto camera. So let me try again. Say I buy a G series lens and I try to use it on my _1973 vintage F2_. How will the aperture setting work? Will the diaphragm stay wide open? completely stopped down? Someone said that by twisting the lens only part way on the lens mount, you could "control" the aperture setting. OK. Can I force the lens to stop down by pressing the DOF preview button on my F2? Father Kodak > Say I buy a G series lens and I try to use it on my _1973 vintage F2_. > How will the aperture setting work? Will the diaphragm stay wide > open? completely stopped down? Near as I can tell, it'll be completely stopped down at the time of exposure. It will almost certainly be wide open until then, as that is a pretty basic function of the lenses. But you won't have any control over aperture selection. SignatureJeremy | jeremy@exit109.com >>>The D200 allows metering with old unchipped lenses by manually entering >>>the widest f/stop in the menu, as I understand. I think aperture & [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >aperture is being stopped down (and the focal length?) from but the D200 >allows you to enter that in the camera. No, you set the aperture manually on the lens, and the camera computes the exposure time. The D200, DX2 etc. do this with unchipped lenses, while the D70/70s/50 are by designed crippled by Nikon and cannot meter with unchipped lenses (but you still can use them with manual exposure). >> I was told that using the AF older Nikon lenses requires one to >> "shut off"? something on the aperure ring so the DSLR can use it >> accurately. > On a lens with an aperture ring, you set the lens to its minimum > aperture and leave it there, which allows the aperture to be set by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > (and possibly the D200?) you can use the aperture ring itself in A > or M mode if you want. D1 series too. All of the pro cameras AFAIK. Andrew. |
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