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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2006

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chimping

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Matt Clara - 22 Jan 2006 13:01 GMT
It seems that people disparage against a dslr photographer reviewing shots
as he/she takes them.  They call it "chimping", I guess to compare those who
do so with the simple and amusing actions of a chimpanzee.  Apparently the
idea is that a "real" photographer would _know_ what they've got on the LCD
without even looking, so only amateurs look.  Yet, I'm not quite sure why.
Take wedding photographers, for instance.  They often have to shoot in
lighting that changes, from room to room, shooting towards a light and then
away from it, closeup to environmental, indoor to out.  While reviewing
every image would be a waste of time, reviewing the first few images in a
new lighting situation only makes too much sense.  I shoot weddings (only
three or four a year), and I use a D70 for the PJ parts, and I happily chimp
away, content in the knowledge that the images I'm making will all be of a
useful quality.  If you're a landscape photographer, well, I'm not sure what
you're using a dslr for, many use medium and large-format for that, but you
would be working slowly, with a tripod, and why _not_ look at your pics on
the lcd?  Sure, things won't change much from shot to shot, but it can help
you really see what you're getting, perhaps leading to better composition.

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Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Rita Ä Berkowitz - 22 Jan 2006 13:33 GMT
> It seems that people disparage against a dslr photographer reviewing
> shots as he/she takes them.  They call it "chimping", I guess to
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> help you really see what you're getting, perhaps leading to better
> composition.

The hell with that!  The D2x and D200 have such good displays it encourages
you to chimp.  I say chimping should be an Olympic sport.

Rita
Alan Browne - 22 Jan 2006 18:36 GMT
> The hell with that!  The D2x and D200 have such good displays it encourages
> you to chimp.  

I believe this is the first time I've ever agreed with you.

> I say chimping should be an Olympic sport.

I guess the agreement streak is over.

Cheers,
Alan

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Bronek Kozicki - 22 Jan 2006 14:17 GMT
> It seems that people disparage against a dslr photographer reviewing shots
> as he/she takes them.  They call it "chimping", I guess to compare those who
> do so with the simple and amusing actions of a chimpanzee.  Apparently the
> idea is that a "real" photographer would _know_ what they've got on the LCD

Well, maybe "real" photographers do not check the histogram, but I do,
especially in poor lighting or contrasty situation. And how can you tell
if I review the photo, or check the histogram?

B.
John A. Stovall - 22 Jan 2006 16:01 GMT
>> It seems that people disparage against a dslr photographer reviewing shots
>> as he/she takes them.  They call it "chimping", I guess to compare those who
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>especially in poor lighting or contrasty situation. And how can you tell
>if I review the photo, or check the histogram?

Just like we did with film by learning how to expose for all kinds of
lighting conditions and using a light meter.

Besides the camera histogram is from my experience not that useful as
it's based on the JPEG not the actual sensor data.

Compare the camera histogram to the one in ACR using ProPhoto RGB and
16 bits for you color space and you'll see how useless it is.

**********************************************************

"A combat photographer should be able to make you see the
color of blood in black and white"

                    David Douglas Duncan
                Speaking on why in Vietnam
             he worked only in black and white
     http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/online/ddd/
Alan Browne - 22 Jan 2006 18:39 GMT
John A. Stovall
> Compare the camera histogram to the one in ACR using ProPhoto RGB and
> 16 bits for you color space and you'll see how useless it is.

Tripe.  The usefulness of a tool comes from understanding what it can
and cannot do.  A histogram may not be perfect, but it certainly is
useful in avoiding saturation as well as avoiding underuse of the sensor
dynamics.

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Randall Ainsworth - 22 Jan 2006 15:20 GMT
I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not using the
LCD as a crutch, I see no problem with using it.
Wm H - 22 Jan 2006 16:08 GMT
> I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not using the
> LCD as a crutch, I see no problem with using it.

Or maybe you couldn't care less??
Bob - 22 Jan 2006 19:18 GMT
>> I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not using the
>> LCD as a crutch, I see no problem with using it.
>
> Or maybe you couldn't care less??

You're wasting your breath. Randall has brains he has never used.

Bob
Floyd Davidson - 22 Jan 2006 16:29 GMT
>I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not using the
>LCD as a crutch, I see no problem with using it.

A crutch, you don't seem to have noticed, is a very useful tool.
It is expedient.

LCD's and histograms are both expedient too, and only a fool
would ignore the best tools available.

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John A. Stovall - 22 Jan 2006 18:02 GMT
>>I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not using the
>>LCD as a crutch, I see no problem with using it.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>LCD's and histograms are both expedient too, and only a fool
>would ignore the best tools available.

But neither is the best tool.  The in camera histogram provides little
information compared to the actual raw histogram in ACR.

As for the LCD, didn't you see and compose the shot in the view
finder?  Or do you just machine gun shoot?

I just wonder how Ansel Adams ever got by with out and LCD and a
histogram.

**********************************************************

"A combat photographer should be able to make you see the
color of blood in black and white"

                    David Douglas Duncan
                Speaking on why in Vietnam
             he worked only in black and white
     http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/online/ddd/
Floyd Davidson - 22 Jan 2006 18:48 GMT
>>>I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not using the
>>>LCD as a crutch, I see no problem with using it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>But neither is the best tool.  The in camera histogram provides little
>information compared to the actual raw histogram in ACR.

Neither is the "best tool"?  For what?  I don't have "ACR",
whatever that is, and I'm hard pressed to see how a histogram
provided by the camera can be compared to a histogram generated
with downline processing software.

>As for the LCD, didn't you see and compose the shot in the view
>finder?  Or do you just machine gun shoot?

That doesn't make sense.  What are you talking about?

The LCD on *my* camera provides a display of the histogram, and
also provides an indication of over exposed areas of the image.

These do just happen to be the best tools available for making
those determinations between each exposure.

>I just wonder how Ansel Adams ever got by with out and LCD and a
>histogram.

I wonder what makes you think Ansel Adams did *not* use the
modern technology that was available to him at the time, or
would not be doing exactly that today if he were living now?

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G.T. - 22 Jan 2006 20:03 GMT
>>>I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not using the
>>>LCD as a crutch, I see no problem with using it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> But neither is the best tool.  The in camera histogram provides little
> information compared to the actual raw histogram in ACR.

Last I checked I couldn't install ACR on my camera.

> As for the LCD, didn't you see and compose the shot in the view
> finder?  Or do you just machine gun shoot?
>
> I just wonder how Ansel Adams ever got by with out and LCD and a
> histogram.

Experience and intuition.  But having a good eye is the most important
thing so why not take advantage of all the available tools to best
record what the eye sees?

Greg

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"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
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John A. Stovall - 22 Jan 2006 20:07 GMT
>>>>I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not using the
>>>>LCD as a crutch, I see no problem with using it.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Last I checked I couldn't install ACR on my camera.

You need the histogram when processing the image not in the camera.

>> As for the LCD, didn't you see and compose the shot in the view
>> finder?  Or do you just machine gun shoot?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>thing so why not take advantage of all the available tools to best
>record what the eye sees?

Because, people like you keep look for tools rather than developing
the eye.

**********************************************************

"A combat photographer should be able to make you see the
color of blood in black and white"

                    David Douglas Duncan
                Speaking on why in Vietnam
             he worked only in black and white
     http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/online/ddd/
G.T. - 22 Jan 2006 20:42 GMT
> Because, people like you keep look for tools rather than developing
> the eye.

There's a big difference between using tools that exist and looking for
tools.

Greg

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"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

Floyd Davidson - 22 Jan 2006 21:02 GMT
>> Because, people like you keep look for tools rather than
>> developing
>> the eye.
>
>There's a big difference between using tools that exist and looking for
>tools.

And there is *nothing* wrong with inventing better tools either!

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Floyd L. Davidson           http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                      floyd@apaflo.com

Floyd Davidson - 22 Jan 2006 21:01 GMT
>You need the histogram when processing the image not in the camera.

Come come now, that statement is absurd.

>>> I just wonder how Ansel Adams ever got by with out and LCD and a
>>> histogram.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Because, people like you keep look for tools rather than developing
>the eye.

You have no way to know whether he has developed a *far* better "eye"
than you have.  Or just how good he is at utilizing tools either.

Gratuitious absurdities suggest...

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Brian - 23 Jan 2006 04:59 GMT
>>>>>I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not using the
>>>>>LCD as a crutch, I see no problem with using it.
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>               he worked only in black and white
>       http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/online/ddd/

What is wrong with the people in this NG? Why is everyone attacking
someone who does not happen to use "their" methods? If someone can do
things from experience while another achieves the same results using a
histogram - so what? It is the result that counts, and how much
satisfaction the person had achieving it. If the photos are merely
personal, then how much fun the person had achieving the result.

It is good to swap ideas and throw 'suggestions' at one another, but why
attack one another? If you don't agree with someone else's methods, put
forward yours, but don't rubbish theirs.

Brian.
Steve Wolfe - 23 Jan 2006 05:31 GMT
> What is wrong with the people in this NG? Why is everyone attacking
> someone who does not happen to use "their" methods?

 Isn't that what you're SUPPOSED to do on usenet?

;-)

steve
Jer - 23 Jan 2006 05:42 GMT
>>>>>> I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not
>>>>>> using the
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
>
> Brian.

Because there are people in the ng that are not only vain and arrogant
enough to believe their methods are the only methods worth learning,
they're also dumb enough to come in here and actually admit it in
public.  A legend in their own mind.  Prima Donna.  Why they're allowed
to breed is beyond comprehension.

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jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

Rich - 23 Jan 2006 04:34 GMT
>>>I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not using the
>>>LCD as a crutch, I see no problem with using it.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>I just wonder how Ansel Adams ever got by with out and LCD and a
>histogram.

Or autofocus L lenses?
-Rich

>**********************************************************
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>              he worked only in black and white
>      http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/online/ddd/
Brian - 23 Jan 2006 04:52 GMT
>>>I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not using the
>>>LCD as a crutch, I see no problem with using it.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I just wonder how Ansel Adams ever got by with out and LCD and a
> histogram.

What has Ansel Adams to do with anything? You can't pick on a one in a
billion person and use them as a reference. The majority of
photographers are not Ansel Adams, and never will be. So they need some
kind of assistance that Ansel didn't.

On top of that, who is to say that Ansel Adams wouldn't have had a
higher strike rate with perfect images using the technology we are
fortunate enough to have today? No-one gets a perfect shot every time
(in terms of focus and exposure), but you get a lot more of them now
with modern digital equipment!

Your comment is like me trying to tell you that you don't need a car
today? Gee, I wonder how King Arthur ever got by without a car? He used
the most modern technology of the time; a horse! It doesn't mean then
that no-one needs a car today.

Brian.
Steve Wolfe - 23 Jan 2006 05:09 GMT
> What has Ansel Adams to do with anything? You can't pick on a one in a
> billion person and use them as a reference. The majority of photographers
> are not Ansel Adams, and never will be. So they need some kind of
> assistance that Ansel didn't.

 I think that the reason pick out Ansel (at least it's why *I* do) is
because he was such a devotee of the craft - and because he also looked at
things from a personal perspective.  While we'll never be Ansel Adams,
aspiring to his love of the craft is something we should all do.

 Of course, that's not to say that Ansel wouldn't use a histogram.  From
his practicality, willingness to use any tool useful to the situation, and
his own comments before his death about looking forward to seeing what the
digital era had to offer, I don't think that he would simply write off the
histogram or other information on the LCD on principle, as some seem to do.
His photography doesn't seem like it was overshadowed by a phobic ego, but
was rather driven by a desire to make the best photo he could.

steve
Brian - 23 Jan 2006 05:21 GMT
>>What has Ansel Adams to do with anything? You can't pick on a one in a
>>billion person and use them as a reference. The majority of photographers
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> steve

Terrific response, Steve. Thank you.
Alan Browne - 22 Jan 2006 18:34 GMT
> I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not using the
> LCD as a crutch, I see no problem with using it.

Slide shooters often bracket when lighting is tough.  That's a crutch
too.  And has saved many a pro's photogs mortgage payments.

If you don't understand histograms, then you'd be well advised to learn
how they can be used.

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David Dyer-Bennet - 22 Jan 2006 19:40 GMT
> I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not using the
> LCD as a crutch, I see no problem with using it.

What's wrong with a crutch?  

And why is an LCD unacceptable but Polaroid backs were acceptable,
even (especially) for studio photographers who could take their time
and were in complete control of every aspect of the lighting?
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Brian - 23 Jan 2006 05:01 GMT
>>I could care less about histograms, but as long as you're not using the
>>LCD as a crutch, I see no problem with using it.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> even (especially) for studio photographers who could take their time
> and were in complete control of every aspect of the lighting?

Very good point David!
Frank ess - 22 Jan 2006 16:32 GMT
> It seems that people disparage against a dslr photographer reviewing
> shots as he/she takes them.  They call it "chimping", I guess to
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> help you really see what you're getting, perhaps leading to better
> composition.

I think you protest too much.

The hook in original uses of "chimping" was the "Ooh ooh ooh!" sounds
of early P&S adopters uninhibitedly enjoying and sharing enjoyment of
the magick in instant reinforcement.

Calling what a "real" photographer does "chimping" is less a
derogatory or disparaging reference than a fond adoption of a
convenient tag, for lack of a better term.

If by your rant you hoped to set yourself apart from the "chimping
masses", too late; usage and evolution have done it for you. Relax and
try to catch up.

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Frank ess
"You know my method, Watson.
It is founded upon
the observation of trifles."
 —Sherlock Holmes—

Matt Clara - 22 Jan 2006 17:24 GMT
>> It seems that people disparage against a dslr photographer reviewing
>> shots as he/she takes them.  They call it "chimping", I guess to
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> masses", too late; usage and evolution have done it for you. Relax and try
> to catch up.

If it's a rant, it's not much of a rant.

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Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com

Brian - 23 Jan 2006 05:14 GMT
>> It seems that people disparage against a dslr photographer reviewing
>> shots as he/she takes them.  They call it "chimping", I guess to
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> masses", too late; usage and evolution have done it for you. Relax and
> try to catch up.

This term chimping is quite pathetic really. What is so bad about people
marveling over modern technology? To be able to take an image and see it
straight afterwards is a fantastic thing. It is also a great quick check
(to a certain extent) that a critical image did turn out.

Being able to see the image "before" you take it would be even better,
as with the p&s cameras. This topic is discussed in another thread and
obviously people have different opinions on it.

This term chimping seems to me to be a fear the pro photographers have
at the moment. They are scared that the everyday snapshooters might
suddenly start taking shots as well as they do. This could happen for a
couple of reasons: firstly, the snapshooter takes a crap image (normally
it would have been discovered later at print time), and now re-takes the
shot - changing some settings in the camera to try and improve the shot.
After some experimenting they achieve a winner. Secondly, the
snapshooter, from an instant result, learns to figure things out FAR
quicker than the pro did going to university and/or reading countless
books and wasting 100's of rolls of film. Anyone with a keen interest
and half a brain can learn which situations are fooling their camera and
how to compensate for it. This is what scares the pros!

Enough said, all I have done the last 2 days is rant in here. I came in
here (new to the NG) as a keen photographer who loves to learn and share
ideas, and see what everyone was discussing. I really expected to see
fun and interesting conversations, and there are plenty of those, but I
am amazed at all the competitiveness and arrogance. My ranting is a
result of some of the snobbery, bs and up-them-self people of this NG (I
am only referring to a small minority in here). Grow up and start
helping one another, not trying to out-do one another!
Steve Wolfe - 23 Jan 2006 05:31 GMT
> This term chimping is quite pathetic really. What is so bad about people
> marveling over modern technology? To be able to take an image and see it
> straight afterwards is a fantastic thing.

 Noooooo... the term goes waaaaaay back.  Don't you recall the large-format
folks scoffing at each other for using a polaroid before making a final
exposure?  The dancing, finger-pointing, and "oooh-oooh-oooh!' mocking?

 (Yes, that was entirely tongue-in-cheek.)

> This term chimping seems to me to be a fear the pro photographers have at
> the moment. They are scared that the everyday snapshooters might suddenly
> start taking shots as well as they do.

 I don't think it's fear, I think it's just that some people like to look
down on other people - ESPECIALLY if they're insecure about themselves, be
it consciously or not.  And if they do fear that the snapshooting masses (or
even someone like me) will start taking images as good as they do on a
regular basis, then their fear is entirely unfounded.

steve
G.T. - 22 Jan 2006 18:19 GMT
> It seems that people disparage against a dslr photographer reviewing shots
> as he/she takes them.  

Well, it's mostly photojournalists and sports photographers who
disparage colleagues for chimping.  If they're looking at the LCD
they're missing shots.

Greg

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Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

Alan Browne - 22 Jan 2006 18:30 GMT
> Well, it's mostly photojournalists and sports photographers who
> disparage colleagues for chimping.  If they're looking at the LCD
> they're missing shots.

Yet everytime I see PJ's and sports shooters gathered, they're chimping
like mad...

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Alan Browne - 22 Jan 2006 18:28 GMT
> It seems that people disparage against a dslr photographer reviewing shots
> as he/she takes them.  They call it "chimping", I guess to compare those who
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> the lcd?  Sure, things won't change much from shot to shot, but it can help
> you really see what you're getting, perhaps leading to better composition.

I don't see anything wrong with the practice and especially combined
with checking the histogram, it can lead to improvement in exposure,
flash direction and power as well as composition.  Since I usually shoot
manual exposure, I'll chimp the first few frames and fine tune the
exposure for a given light and then ignore the LCD for the rest of the
sequence.

In some lighting I used to bracket, esp. slide film.  Now, with digital,
I chimp a few frames and don't bracket (except as the different exposure
might be interesting).

Film die-hards may see it as amateurish, but pre-metering, die-hards
probably thought meters were for wimps too.  And how many pros bracket
slide film in difficult lighting situations?  All of them that sell.

How many pros use auto focus?  A great number of them.  Used to be
considered wimpish, now it's essential for many sports shooters.

In the studio, when using a lot of lights, props, gobos, and so on, it
is indispensible in picking up lighting errors or ways to enhance the
image.  And of course, before committing film in the studio it's much
better than polaroid.

Watch sports shooters and PJs.  They are as chimpish as the most naïve
amateur.

At a luncheon speech by the US Ambassador to Canada in Montreal a couple
months ago, at which I was a guest, there were several photogs from the
various newspapers.  All were chimping away merrily and making
adjustments and shooting again.

Nothing "wrong" with it at all if it improves the end result.  For
amateurs it just helps learn faster, although it does change the thought
process.

Just be happy that you're shooting digital with a wealth of film
exposure experience to back it up.

Cheers,
Alan.

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JPS@no.komm - 23 Jan 2006 16:00 GMT
>Nothing "wrong" with it at all if it improves the end result.  For
>amateurs it just helps learn faster, although it does change the thought
>process.

It's good feedback if you understand the limitations, but an
under-exposed or soft image may look OK in the LCD, so if it looks OK it
still may not be (except as a thumbnail).  Most LCDs I've used need to
be tilted a little bit to have a realistic DR; straight-on, as midtones
through highlights are compressed into the LCD's highlights, and don't
really separate until you tilt the LCD so that it is a little darker
looking.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
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><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
John McWilliams - 27 Jan 2006 02:07 GMT
>>Nothing "wrong" with it at all if it improves the end result.  For
>>amateurs it just helps learn faster, although it does change the thought
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> really separate until you tilt the LCD so that it is a little darker
> looking.

Amen. I've had too many shots that look ok to great on the LCD but turn
out to be poorly focussed or exposed. Or both. I try to concentrate on
the histogram, and that works outside, but I am crap with it using flash.

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John McWilliams

Benny - 25 Jan 2006 03:42 GMT
>At a luncheon speech by the US Ambassador to Canada in Montreal a couple
>months ago, at which I was a guest, there were several photogs from the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Cheers,
>Alan.

Right...I am a news cameraman shooting for  national network..I too was once
covering a luncheon  speech and here is the scene..
Speech is sheduled to take  1/2 hour... Three pressphotogs set  remote
flashes in front of the podium...Speech starts...Photogs start shooting
bursts of 3-5 shots...chimping “merrily”..another barrage of bursts,all with
flash...moore “merry” chimping..this goes on the WHOLE 1/2 hour.. We are
talking about one person speaking, what can you learn and improve taking
hundred shots of one person speaking...I still remember the film days when
they came an took 3-5 shots and went away or stayed for free lunch..
Needles to say that the newsfootage was allmost useless because of the
constant flashing...
Cheers Benny
David Dyer-Bennet - 22 Jan 2006 19:38 GMT
> It seems that people disparage against a dslr photographer reviewing shots
> as he/she takes them.  They call it "chimping", I guess to compare those who
> do so with the simple and amusing actions of a chimpanzee.  Apparently the
> idea is that a "real" photographer would _know_ what they've got on the LCD
> without even looking, so only amateurs look.  Yet, I'm not quite sure why.

It's because lots and lots of people are idiots.

Consider the 1970s studio advertising photographer.  He and his crew
would build sets, bring in the products, light them, set up the 4x5
(or even larger) view cameras -- and then shoot lots and lots of
Polaroid film to fine-tune the lighting and exposure and set and
framing.  I read of some of them even then shooting crhomes and sending
it to a super-fast pro-lab to get it back in time to check *that*
before striking the set.  

And yet idiots criticize digital photographers for checking the LCD.  

Ignore them.  

In another direction, consider the classic Life magazine
photographers, or National Geographic.  They were expected to send in
well over 10 times the amount of film that was actually printed in the
magazine -- often people sent in more like 50, or 100 times as many
pictures as were used in the magazine.  

And yet idiots criticize digital photographers for shooting too much.  

Ignore them.

And keep careful track of what you're doing.  Are you shooting the
same thing over and over, or are you working systematically to catch a
particular shot, making meaningful variations in hopes of getting it?
Are you relying on luck only as an absolutely last resort, when
you've already controlled everything you *can* control and you still
can't reliably get the picture you want?   Or are you in fact blazing
away at random and just hoping to get lucky?

Because there's a core of truth to the idiot's objections; some
photographers *are*, for whatever reason, behaving stupidly, in the
sense of not doing things the ways most likely to get them the
pictures they want.  

You just can't tell which are which by what kind of equipment they use
or how many pictures they take.

Apologies to anybody who thinks I've called them an idiot; most
especially to people who agree with the above, but have become so
frustrated at seeing people shooting stupidly that their frustration
pushed them into intemperate statements about condemning whole classes
of photographers.
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G.T. - 22 Jan 2006 19:59 GMT
> And yet idiots criticize digital photographers for checking the LCD.  
>
> Ignore them.  

No one is talking about checking the LCD for proper exposure.  They're
talking about people constantly checking their results and wasting their
time saying or thinking "oooo ooooo, look at that pretty picture, ooooo
 aaaaaa".

> In another direction, consider the classic Life magazine
> photographers, or National Geographic.  They were expected to send in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Ignore them.

No it's more like 1000 times now.  There have been many interesting
articles written about digital photography isn't scalable.  When one
takes too many pictures they simply become unmanageable no matter how
good one's workflow is.

Greg

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Slack™ - 23 Jan 2006 05:44 GMT
>> In another direction, consider the classic Life magazine
>> photographers, or National Geographic.  They were expected to send in
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Greg

So true.  I'm trying to pretend I'm shooting film, as much as possible,
and focusing in on making every shot count. I'm might miss some shots,
but I think in long run it will make me a better photographer.  It's
just too easy to blow through 200, 400, 500 pictures and not be too
concerned with technique... plus, I inevitably get a lower keeper % anyway.
_____
Slack
Alan Browne - 22 Jan 2006 21:39 GMT
> In another direction, consider the classic Life magazine
> photographers, or National Geographic.  They were expected to send in
> well over 10 times the amount of film that was actually printed in the
> magazine -- often people sent in more like 50, or 100 times as many
> pictures as were used in the magazine.  

Nat Geo: 29,000 images (average) per article (800 rolls).  2000:1.  But
that's not to say the that "all" of the unused were rejects, they just
weren't used.  Many went on to be used in other projects and if I recall
sold to other organizations for various uses.

> Apologies to anybody who thinks I've called them an idiot; most
> especially to people who agree with the above, but have become so
> frustrated at seeing people shooting stupidly that their frustration
> pushed them into intemperate statements about condemning whole classes
> of photographers.

Any new technology breeds new ways to use the technology.  What counts
is what's effective.  My SO and I just went for a walk in the woods.
She stopped to shoot something and was having a mind blank about
metering snow(shooting film).  With a digital, whatever error she made
would have been quickly seen.

I meter like I do with film, but then for the first few frames chimp and
tune before carrying on.

Cheers,
Alan

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Rich - 23 Jan 2006 04:33 GMT
>It seems that people disparage against a dslr photographer reviewing shots
>as he/she takes them.  They call it "chimping", I guess to compare those who
>do so with the simple and amusing actions of a chimpanzee.  Apparently the
>idea is that a "real" photographer would _know_ what they've got on the LCD
>without even looking, so only amateurs look.  Yet, I'm not quite sure why.

And yet, the LCDs on the back of DSLRs get bigger and bigger, with
higher resolution.  Too bad they are never used by the "pros" on this
group.  Ha ha ha.
-Rich

Brian - 23 Jan 2006 05:26 GMT
>>It seems that people disparage against a dslr photographer reviewing shots
>>as he/she takes them.  They call it "chimping", I guess to compare those who
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> -Rich
>  

I wonder how many are really pros? Pro only means they make money taking
photographs, it doesn't mean they take good photographs! Someone who has
no desire to pursue photography as a 'career' may take the best photos
in the world. Who is the real pro, the money maker or the great picture
taker?

:-)
Toby - 24 Jan 2006 02:15 GMT
> It seems that people disparage against a dslr photographer reviewing shots
> as he/she takes them.  They call it "chimping", I guess to compare those
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> change much from shot to shot, but it can help you really see what you're
> getting, perhaps leading to better composition.

As the Nobel-prize winning physicist Richard Feynman said, "Why do you care
about what other people think?"

Any tool or action that gives you information that you need or can use that
doesn't hinder your getting the shot is to your advantage. If you are in a
tight situation in which opportunities are lost while you are reviewing your
shots then you need to know enough about your camera and your technique to
be able to forgo reviews, otherwise why the hell not?

Toby
imodan@tpg.com.au - 24 Jan 2006 03:57 GMT
Have you read Richard Gleick's book "Genius'?

Fascinating stuff...
Toby - 25 Jan 2006 05:08 GMT
Thanks, I'll check it out.

Toby

> Have you read Richard Gleick's book "Genius'?
>
> Fascinating stuff...
Patrick L - 24 Jan 2006 06:22 GMT
Gotta chimp, man, I'm getting paid to get it right,  so I'm using every tool
I have available to give my clients the best I can give.

I chimp,   but I don't make the monkey noises.    I might shriek,
occasionally.

Patrick
Toby - 25 Jan 2006 05:09 GMT
> Gotta chimp, man, I'm getting paid to get it right,  so I'm using every
> tool I have available to give my clients the best I can give.
>
> I chimp,   but I don't make the monkey noises.    I might shriek,
> occasionally.

Isn't it absurd? Chimping....someone has a big ego problem...I suppose all
those pros in film days using Polariod backs for test shots were chimping
too...

Toby
G.T. - 25 Jan 2006 06:41 GMT
>>Gotta chimp, man, I'm getting paid to get it right,  so I'm using every
>>tool I have available to give my clients the best I can give.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> those pros in film days using Polariod backs for test shots were chimping
> too...

You clearly don't know what chimping is.

Greg
Signature

"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

Nameless - 27 Jan 2006 03:56 GMT
How about remote chimping.

My sister used to approve all the photos that my brother in law used to take
of her.

Have a good day.

I sign myself Nameless to maintain good family relations.
bozo - 05 Feb 2006 02:33 GMT
I thought they called it chimping because I scratched my head and then my
tail every time after I did it - who knew?

> Gotta chimp, man, I'm getting paid to get it right,  so I'm using every
> tool I have available to give my clients the best I can give.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Patrick
Rich - 05 Feb 2006 19:42 GMT
>I thought they called it chimping because I scratched my head and then my
>tail every time after I did it - who knew?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>
>> Patrick

What did pros call "autofocus" before they got over their prejudices
and adopted it en masse?
-Rich
Steven Wandy - 06 Feb 2006 14:42 GMT
> What did pros call "autofocus" before they got over their prejudices
> and adopted it en masse?
> -Rich

A "crutch".
 
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