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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2006

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does my d70s have a flash problem?

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hogges - 13 Jan 2006 03:23 GMT
Hi,
I just received my new Nikon D70s and I am very surprised about its
behavior when using the built-in flash:
In P (Program) mode it gives me indoors at night 1/60s, and 3.5
aperture (maximum the lens can do) with the flash activated. Nothing
happens when I try to set different timing/aperture values in this
mode.
In S mode I can select the shutter speed between 1/500s (max sync
speed) and 30", as expected, however it shows me massive under-exposure
for speeds faster than 1/8s and the aperture is stuck at 3.5 until I
reach 1/2s and slower.
In A mode I can chose the aperture, the speed is stuck at 1/60s and I
see underexposure warning throughout the aperture range.

All this was done focusing to distances of a few to several feet. I
tried different metering methods. I reset all the settings in the menu
to default. ISO is at 200.

This is not what I expected. Why am I not able to take a picture at say
1/60s but at a more reasonable aperture? Why these irritating
underexposure warnings?

Thanks in advance,
Wolfgang in VT

hogges@*NO_SPAM*gmx.net remove *NO_SPAM*
C J Southern - 13 Jan 2006 04:17 GMT
That behaviour is normal on a Canon - and I would think normal on a Nikon
too. In "auto mode" the camera will choose a shutter speed that let's you
hand-hold - in Aperture priority it'll give you a shutter speed that
correctly exposes the BACKGROUND (the foreground is taken care of by the
flash). Shutter priority it'll do the best it can with the background, but
will take the shot anyway at the max F-Stop - if that means that the
background is underexposed then so be it.

Metering that you're seeing is primarily for the background in all modes
except automatic modes.

Basically in all auto modes the camera assumes that the flash is the primary
source of light - in Tv / Av / M / ADOF modes it assumes that the flash is a
fill flash to expose the foreground - it's assuming you'll correctly expose
the background.

Cheers,

Colin
hogges - 13 Jan 2006 07:47 GMT
Hi Colin,
Thanks for your answer.
I am used to my Canon AE1 Program with an automatic flash. There I set
the aperture to what I want (say f8) and the shutter speed is
automatically set to the sync speed of 1/60s. I choose the aperture
value to determine how bright the background will be and how far the
flash is supposed to reach.

Now if I try to do the same on the Nikon and I select f8 in aperture
mode, then the camera decides to open the shutter for 1/2". Why would
the camera decide to have the background correctly lit at the expense
of it being totally blurry? How would I go about taking a flash picture
at an f-stop of 8 (because I want the DOF or because the lense quality
is better) and a reasonable shutter speed without going into full
manual mode?

Regards and thanks again,
Wolfgang

> That behaviour is normal on a Canon - and I would think normal on a Nikon
> too. In "auto mode" the camera will choose a shutter speed that let's you
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Colin
hogges - 13 Jan 2006 08:18 GMT
I have to correct my previous email: If I set menu 21 "shutter speed"
to its default value of 1/60s then the camera does not go beyond this
independent of the aperture I choose. So I guess this gives me what I
want. I must have overlooked this change in behavior after resetting
the camera.
The commander flash mode for the separate flash is really great, by the
way: I can hold the camera with one hand and the flash with the other
or simply put the flash where I want it (comes with a stand) and
operate the camera with no cables attached!
Regards, Wolfgang
Ronnie Sellar - 13 Jan 2006 08:21 GMT
Try Manual mode.  The default flash mode for the D70 or D70s in A, S or P
modes is iTTL Balanced fill flash where it tries to correctly expose the
background as well.  In manual the default mode is plain iTTL which expexts
the flash to be the main light and ignores the background..

Ronnie

> Hi Colin,
> Thanks for your answer.
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>>
>> Colin
Ronnie Sellar - 13 Jan 2006 08:25 GMT
OOPS ! Forgot to mention that you can select the slowest shutter speed you
want the camera to use with flash. Its custom setting 21.

Ronnie

> Hi Colin,
> Thanks for your answer.
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>>
>> Colin
C J Southern - 13 Jan 2006 10:49 GMT
You're welcome.

If you haven't done so already, I'd suggest having a read of ...

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/

It's to do with Canon flash systems, but I have a sneaking suspicion that
it'll help answer your Nikon questions. Failing that, I suspect some of the
Nikon owners will be able to answer your questions with the depth of more
knowledge and experiance (I'm a Canon man).

Let us know how you get on eh?

Cheers,

Colin
Neil Henderson - 14 Jan 2006 16:37 GMT
> You're welcome.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Colin

Thanks for the link Colin it makes great reading.

Signature

Neil

Website: www.photographer.myby.co.uk

ICQ No# 22584584

Remove you know what to get the e-mail addy

"... I will face my fear... and it will pass through me...

and when it's gone there will be nothing... only I will remain..."

C J Southern - 14 Jan 2006 21:40 GMT
> Thanks for the link Colin it makes great reading.

You're welcome!

Out of interest, I was able to copy/paste from the website into MS Word, and
it held the formatting perfectly. By the way, it came to 99 pages - this
chap has kindly written what amounts to a small book for us!

I dropped him a note to say thanks, but haven't heard back yet.
Neil Henderson - 15 Jan 2006 06:29 GMT
>> Thanks for the link Colin it makes great reading.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I dropped him a note to say thanks, but haven't heard back yet.

So that explains why I haven't got to the end yet LOL

The thing that gets me is I've always understood what my flash was doing
in Av mode with my Canon an by the sound of it Nikon's do the same so why
all the confusion?

Signature

Neil

Website: www.photographer.myby.co.uk

ICQ No# 22584584

Remove you know what to get the e-mail addy

"... I will face my fear... and it will pass through me...

and when it's gone there will be nothing... only I will remain..."

Ole Larsen - 13 Jan 2006 15:45 GMT
hogges skrev:
> Hi Colin,
> Thanks for your answer.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> is better) and a reasonable shutter speed without going into full
> manual mode?

Use iTTL, not iTTL-balanced
Signature

Med venlig hilsen, Ole Larsen.
New Images And Design 2005-11-17
http://home.tiscali.dk/muggler

Ian Harding - 13 Jan 2006 08:21 GMT
> Hi,
> I just received my new Nikon D70s and I am very surprised about its
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> 1/60s but at a more reasonable aperture? Why these irritating
> underexposure warnings?

This is the same as my D70 using built-in flash or SB-600.  If I want to
use flash as the primary light source, I set the camera to M(anual) and
choose shutter speed and aperture to suit.

The meter is not useful in this situation, it is correctly showing what
would happen if no flash was in use.  What's the alternative?  It shows
correct exposure all the time that the flash is enabled, expect that
would be wrong if the flash didn't have enough power, and the camera
wouldn't know about that until after you'd taken the picture.

Ian
Norm Dresner - 13 Jan 2006 15:25 GMT
> Hi,
> I just received my new Nikon D70s and I am very surprised about its
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> 1/60s but at a more reasonable aperture? Why these irritating
> underexposure warnings?

According to the D70 manual on p99, the slowest shutter speed used with the
built-in flash is set by Custom Setting #21 (Shutter Speed),  It's default
is 1/60 second but it can be set from 1/60 to 1/500.  I suspect that the
D70s has a similar feature

   Norm
Sheldon - 14 Jan 2006 01:29 GMT
> Hi,
> I just received my new Nikon D70s and I am very surprised about its
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Thanks in advance,
> Wolfgang in VT

If the built-in flash leaves you perplexed, and you use the flash a lot, you
might want to upgrade to the SB600 or better yet the SB800.  Way more
options available to you, and really compliments your D70.  I've got the
800, and use it a lot more than I thought I ever would.
EUGENE HURWITZ - 14 Jan 2006 15:25 GMT
Put the camera in manual mode, use the analog scale in the viewfinder to set
aperture and shutter speed.

>> Hi,
>> I just received my new Nikon D70s and I am very surprised about its
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> options available to you, and really compliments your D70.  I've got the
> 800, and use it a lot more than I thought I ever would.
Jim - 08 Feb 2006 05:10 GMT
> Hi,
> I just received my new Nikon D70s and I am very surprised about its
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> hogges@*NO_SPAM*gmx.net remove *NO_SPAM*

You can't change physics.  The exposure is the exposure. If the correct
exposure is 3.5 at 1/60 (the default flash sync speed) that is what it
is.  You may wish it to be 1/60 at f/11 but wishing won't do it.

The Nikon Flash system normally operates in  a balanced flash mode,
trying to balance the background against the forground.   You can
modify this behavior.

for example. I set my D70s to Auto (most other settings other than
image (changed to RAW) are set to default except for a couple of things
which have no exposure effect).

D70s  18070 F3.5/4.5

Auto:        1/60  3.5
Program  1/60 3.5
Shutter:    I set shutter speed to 1/60 and camera picks 3.5  If I
increase the shutter speed to any increment up to 1/500 aperature stays
at 3.5 and the shot is correcty exposed.  Why?   Because the flash is
many times faster than the shutter, and so long as the camera will sync
at that speed,. then the exposure remains the same.
Now, go the otherway...  the camera is actually measuring the the
available light situation.  In  office right now the subject I have
been shooting (the ever thrilling bulletin board on the wall.. know how
often I look at that.. I got a new calendar for christmas, replaced the
one on the board... it was stuck on July)   In this case, the available
light exposure is 1/8 at 3.5.  If the available light is brighter, it
will pick a faster
aperature and shutter speed.  There is a limited chart on page 78 of
the manual (D70s) which shows you the various shutter speeds and
aperature combinations for a given EV (Exposure Value).  regretfully
Nikon does not gives extended tables for all the auto modes but this
gives you an idea of what is going on.   If you are getting a "LO"
reading that means there is not enough natural light to give an
exposure within the Auto limits of camera.  However if the flash to
subject distance is with in the specs of the flash, then the camera
will give a correctly exposed shot using the flash, but the shutter
will be open for a long time.. you probably don't want to shoot in this
mode for flash photograph without a tripod.

Aperature Priority      Here the camera sets the shutter speed for the
default 1/60th.  As noted above the correct available light exposure
for my situation is 1/8 a 3.5.   Again, if I were to take a picture at
1/60th at 3.5 the flash exposure will be correct.

Manual:  I can set what ever combinations I want. It won't let me
exceed 1/500th of a second shutter because that is all the camera will
sync the flash to.   So, If I want I can set the camera to any shutter
speed and any aperature.  However, I need to beware of the Guide Number
of the flash and the effects of falsh to subject distance. See the
discussion below.

Flash exposure is a function of four  items..   ISO, Flash to Subject
Distance, Guide Number (or "power") of the flash and aperature.  
Shutter speed has no effect on the flash exposure.. the background or
available light yes, flash no.

With the built in flash you can modify the behaviour by selecting slow
sync mode and the camera will expose for the natural light and use the
flash for fill.

You can also select manual mode and spot meter and the camera will use
TTL flash but stop trying to balance the background, so you may get
better results and faster shutter speeds.

The built in flash is not very powerful and it needs to pick  apertures
to get any kind of shooting distance.  At 3.5 with ISO 200, the maximum
flash to subject distance is about 12 feet.   I you increase the ISO to
400, you get 18 feet at 3.5 or 12.6 feet at 5.6

The camera is behaving normally.  Its is doing the best it can.  If you
want to overide things, then you can go to manual.  But if yo set your
camera to f11 with the bultin flash, your subject has to be closer than
5 feet for correct exposure.  See pages 97 to 101 of the manual.   All
cameras behave this way. he curves and programs may be a little
different, but the basics are there.

If you want more flash  range and flexibility, its time to add a more
powerful SB600 or 800 to your gadget bag.  Other flashes may work but
until you understand the relationships do flash exposure, best stick
with Nikon ones.  They are excellent flashes anyway.

Good luck and happy shooting.

-
Jim     <jen....not....home..remvdots...@....yahoo    
 
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