Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / September 2005
DOF in viewfinder different from captured image!
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Hussam - 25 Sep 2005 18:32 GMT This is weird.. I have a Nikon D70s.. just picked it up the other day.. my first DSLR (after using a Nikon FE-2).. so i put on my 50mm 1.4 AiS lens and look through the viewfinder.. and things pretty much look focused.. like as if i'm at f4 or f5.6.. i click the shutter (aperture set at f1.4) and the captured image has shallow depth of field - as expected at f1.4... but how come what i see through the viewfinder is not the same?!!!!
Same story with my 35-135mm f3.5-3.5 AiS lens.. when i put it on.. and take a picture at 3.5, it's different than what i'm seeing in the viewfinder... the viewfinder image is again more like f5.6 ...
what's up with that??
Thanks for any insight.
p.s. i don't seem to have this problem with the AF-S 17-80mm DX (kit) lens.. but then again.. its maximum aperture is already at f4.5..
Christian Bonanno - 25 Sep 2005 20:54 GMT > This is weird.. I have a Nikon D70s.. just picked it up the other day.. > my first DSLR (after using a Nikon FE-2).. so i put on my 50mm 1.4 AiS [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > p.s. i don't seem to have this problem with the AF-S 17-80mm DX (kit) > lens.. but then again.. its maximum aperture is already at f4.5.. That is how it has always been. Which is why some camera have a DOF preview button.
http://photonotes.org/cgi-bin/entry.pl?id=Depthoffieldpreview http://www.photozone.de/3Technology/demos/DOFbutton.htm http://www.naturephotographers.net/articles0905/rb0905-1.html http://www.hoothollow.com/QofM2002-2003/Question-OctoberNovember2002.html
But it is pretty much useless for reasons you will read.
You have to use your brains.
You might also ask why your view finder does not get darker when the scene is under exposed. :^)
 Signature Photographs by Christian Bonanno http://christianbonanno.com/
Hussam - 25 Sep 2005 20:59 GMT No I don't think you get it.. the viewfinder is supposed to show me DOF equivalent to f1.4 if my attached lens is 50mm f1.4!.. likewise, if my other lens stops down to f3.5 then that's what i should see through the viewfinder.. regardless of what actual aperture i end up shooting at..
but what i'm saying is, that even with my 50mm f1.4 lens, what i'm seenig through the viewfinder is something more like f5.6.. the f5.6 should only end up on film (or ccd) but NOT in the viewfinder UNLESS i engaged the DOF preview button...
I hope i'm clear....
Pepe - 25 Sep 2005 21:17 GMT > No I don't think you get it.. the viewfinder is supposed to show me DOF > equivalent to f1.4 if my attached lens is 50mm f1.4!.. likewise, if my [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I hope i'm clear.... It seams like you aperture is not working well when on the camera. Perhaps there is lagging when the camera should bring the aperture to f1:1,4 Thats what it should normaly do when attached to the camera housing. If not, it will be as you describe dark in the veiw finder.
Make sure there is no oil on the aperture blades, commond on old objektivs.
Pepe
Hussam - 26 Sep 2005 18:47 GMT The aperture is working fine... the viewfinder is nice and bright.. the lens is NOT stopped down... but looking thru the viewfinder the depth of field is "deeper" than captured image even though i'm shooting at f1.4 (or f3.5 in the case of the other lens).....
Andrew Koenig - 27 Sep 2005 19:28 GMT > The aperture is working fine... the viewfinder is nice and bright.. the > lens is NOT stopped down... but looking thru the viewfinder the depth > of field is "deeper" than captured image even though i'm shooting at > f1.4 (or f3.5 in the case of the other lens)..... What makes you think so?
Harri Suomalainen - 28 Sep 2005 17:18 GMT >>The aperture is working fine... the viewfinder is nice and bright.. the
>>lens is NOT stopped down... but looking thru the viewfinder the depth >>of field is "deeper" than captured image even though i'm shooting at >>f1.4 (or f3.5 in the case of the other lens)..... Dof depends on the magnification. SLR viewfinder image is small (in most cameras) and you SEEM to have perhaps 3 stops or so more depth than when you look the same image at a bigger magnification on a computer screen.
Magnify the image more and you seem to loose the dof. Look at an image at the LCD with and without magnification. See the difference? Exactly the same thing is happening when you look it at a viewfinder or at a computer screen.
So, you can rely on the viewfinder only if you look the images at a size of a postage stamp on the computer too. If you magnify it more you need more depth. -- harri
Beach Bum - 29 Sep 2005 21:42 GMT > The aperture is working fine... the viewfinder is nice and bright.. the > lens is NOT stopped down... but looking thru the viewfinder the depth > of field is "deeper" than captured image even though i'm shooting at > f1.4 (or f3.5 in the case of the other lens)..... Your eye compensates for focus as well. The printed photo is static - the eye can't compenstate for the blur, but the view finder isn't static.
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Photos, Ideas & Opinions http://www.marklauter.com
l e o - 30 Sep 2005 01:24 GMT >>The aperture is working fine... the viewfinder is nice and bright.. the >>lens is NOT stopped down... but looking thru the viewfinder the depth [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Your eye compensates for focus as well. The printed photo is static - the > eye can't compenstate for the blur, but the view finder isn't static. I do think viewfiner is static. You can see where the focus is. try to focus to something close and then far and you can see the DoF at work right on your viewfinder! However, you do need to concentrate because a viewfinder is many times smaller than if you look at the picture on your screen at 1:1 ratio. And the depth of field at f/1.4 is so tiny that you have to move the focus back and forth a bit to track it right.
Frank ess - 25 Sep 2005 21:50 GMT > No I don't think you get it.. the viewfinder is supposed to show me > DOF equivalent to f1.4 if my attached lens is 50mm f1.4!.. likewise, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I hope i'm clear.... Take the picture, shrink it to the relative size of your viewfinder and judge the difference in focus between the in-DOF and out-of-DOF features. Could it be the scale of the viewfinder doesn't allow useful discriminations on wide-open, low-F views?
 Signature Frank ess
Paul J Gans - 26 Sep 2005 04:33 GMT >> No I don't think you get it.. the viewfinder is supposed to show me >> DOF equivalent to f1.4 if my attached lens is 50mm f1.4!.. likewise, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> I hope i'm clear....
>Take the picture, shrink it to the relative size of your viewfinder >and judge the difference in focus between the in-DOF and out-of-DOF >features. Could it be the scale of the viewfinder doesn't allow useful >discriminations on wide-open, low-F views? Which is why film SLRs had a special viewfinder screen with focussing aids. Many will remember those. They were needed for just this reason.
It is too bad that dSLRs do not have the same feature. As a result it is almost impossible to manually focus one. Of course the automatic focus is supposed to take care of that, but there are a number of low contrast situations where the human eye is better than the electronics.
But no matter. The explanation is as Frank says. Many a precious shot has been saved by NOT printing it at 8x10 but using something smaller instead.
---- Paul J. Gans
Beach Bum - 29 Sep 2005 21:44 GMT > It is too bad that dSLRs do not have the same feature. As > a result it is almost impossible to manually focus one. Of > course the automatic focus is supposed to take care of that, > but there are a number of low contrast situations where the > human eye is better than the electronics. If you half-press the shutter on the 20D during manual focus the focus zone thingies will flash and beep. For this reason I'm not feeling the need to buy a split-prism focusing screen any more. I didn't see this feature mentioned in the manual, but I skimmed it pretty fast.
 Signature Mark
Photos, Ideas & Opinions http://www.marklauter.com
Randall Ainsworth - 30 Sep 2005 02:31 GMT > If you half-press the shutter on the 20D during manual focus the focus zone > thingies will flash and beep. For this reason I'm not feeling the need to > buy a split-prism focusing screen any more. I didn't see this feature > mentioned in the manual, but I skimmed it pretty fast. Turn off all the focus points except for one and quit trying to judge DOF through the viewfinder. It's only to give an approximation.
Christian Bonanno - 26 Sep 2005 02:14 GMT > No I don't think you get it.. the viewfinder is supposed to show me DOF > equivalent to f1.4 if my attached lens is 50mm f1.4!.. likewise, if my [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I hope i'm clear.... You're clear but you're wrong and confused. Please don't snip so much of the post in the future.
You said:
> This is weird.. I have a Nikon D70s.. just picked it up the other day.. > my first DSLR (after using a Nikon FE-2).. so i put on my 50mm 1.4 AiS [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > expected at f1.4... but how come what i see through the viewfinder is > not the same?!!!! You wanted to know why what you saw in the view finder ("like as if i'm at f4 or f5.6") does not look like the finished image (" shallow depth of field as expected at f1.4 but how come what i see through the viewfinder is not the same?!").
> Same story with my 35-135mm f3.5-3.5 AiS lens.. when i put it on.. and > take a picture at 3.5, it's different than what i'm seeing in the > viewfinder... the viewfinder image is again more like f5.6 FIrst I want to ask you how you can judge DOF that precisely.
You have not said what distance the object you are focusing on is, which also has an effect on DOF.
Oh, and don't go by the view finder. Tell us about the digital image.
But you communicated it all poorly. Maybe try again. Be very specific with everything, limit the variables.
 Signature Photographs by Christian Bonanno http://christianbonanno.com/
Hussam - 26 Sep 2005 19:16 GMT I'm not wrong.. but confused yes... that's why i posted my question.
As to how i can judge DOF that precisely... it's not that hard to tell the difference between f1.4 and f5.6.. the difference is pretty big! You don't need super vision for that.
Sorry for not specifying what distance i was focusing at.. didn't think it made a difference...i was focusing at 2 meters with the background being at 4-5 meters.
What do you mean don't go by the viewfinder..i'm using an SLR!!! what else am i supposed to go by?!!!
no_name - 26 Sep 2005 23:43 GMT > I'm not wrong.. but confused yes... that's why i posted my question. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > What do you mean don't go by the viewfinder..i'm using an SLR!!! what > else am i supposed to go by?!!! The human eye can focus & see depth where the lens, f/stop & sensor combination cannot capture it. Your brain is actually interpreting some of the out of focus image and bringing it into focus for you.
Literally you SEE f/5.6 even when the viewfinder has f/1.4 DOF.
DoN. Nichols - 26 Sep 2005 02:57 GMT According to Hussam <hktaha@gmail.com>:
> No I don't think you get it.. the viewfinder is supposed to show me DOF > equivalent to f1.4 if my attached lens is 50mm f1.4!.. likewise, if my [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > should only end up on film (or ccd) but NOT in the viewfinder UNLESS i > engaged the DOF preview button... I think that what you are seeing is that your eye can correct for minor out-of-focus condition in the viewfinder, especially without an anchor. If you turn on the autofocus zone display ("pencil" menu, item 18 "AF are illm") and the grid in the viewfinder (same menu, entry 08 "Grid Display", you have anchor points for your eye's focus, so you should compare the apparent focus in the viewfinder while the grid or the autofocus zone indicator are sharp in your vision.
But in any case, you don't have the full-screen ground glass viewfinder area which was used back in the Nikon F days to give a better indication of the depth of field. And you are trying to compare a tiny image in the viewfinder with the much larger image display on your computer's screen, or a printed copy from a printer. Depth-Of-Field is a function of image size, and what is sharp enough in a tiny image may well no longer be so in a larger image.
Also -- are you in "Auto" mode on the top dial to the left of the pentaprism? If so, it will select whatever portion of your image is the closest, and autofocus on that. Switch to "P"rogram mode, and it will use the autofocus zone which you have selected, while most other features remain as automatic as you may need. (Or were you switching off the autofocus on the camera body, and attempting manual focusing?)
Enjoy, DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Hussam - 26 Sep 2005 19:09 GMT HI.. thanks for your thorough reply... I'm comparing the image in the viewfinder to the image on the lcd ... it's not that hard to tell the difference between an f1.4 and an f5.6 image.. i'm focusing at something that's about 2 meters away and looking at a background that is about 4-5 meters away.... you can tell the difference.
Also, with non-CPU lenses (as is the case with my manual focus 50mm and 35-135mm lenses), you MUST use Manual mode on the D70s... so i wasn't on Auto.
I THINK the explanation is the diopter adjustment messing with the image in the viewfinder.. making it sharper than what it really is..? i'll check.
tomm101 - 27 Sep 2005 19:16 GMT > No I don't think you get it.. the viewfinder is supposed to show me DOF > equivalent to f1.4 if my attached lens is 50mm f1.4!.. likewise, if my [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I hope i'm clear.... The viewfinder on a D70 is very dim, much dimmer than a 35mm camera, I'd bet that it is dim enough that your eye couldn't resolve the critical focus. This is due to the small mirror size and the use of mirrors instead of a prism in the finder.
Tom
wilt - 25 Sep 2005 22:32 GMT Not intimately familiar with the D70, but a long time ago with twin-lens reflexes point and shoots, the aerial image thru the aiming lens was nice and bright and easy to see. Just point and shoot and don't worry about focus. Everything was sharp in these finders! Then SLRs came about, and groundglass was employed so that the entire screen could be focused, but not with enough precision, so focusing aids like split screen and microprism were added to improve focus acuity. But with the precision can darkening of the central focusing aide. Then manufacturers introduced exchangeable focusing screens, so that you could have enough focus precision for a long focal length lens without the screen darkening horribly. Now comes the autofocus SLR...the manufacturers begin with very bright focusing screens that are near useless for manual focus, but when photographers mount manual focus lenses they suddenly want some focusing precision, but not all the SLRs are optimized for that...they still use nice bright finders and focusing screens, but somewhat like the old aerial images fo the TLR point and shoot...so they show a lot of stuff in focus because the screens are designed to be bright, and that is counter to showing things sharp vs. somewhat unfocused for DOF evaluation.
John A. Stovall - 25 Sep 2005 23:20 GMT >Not intimately familiar with the D70, but a long time ago with >twin-lens reflexes point and shoots, the aerial image thru the aiming [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >that you could have enough focus precision for a long focal length lens >without the screen darkening horribly. Never has this problem with my early Nikons and later the Contarex with it's fresnel focusing screen with a microprism ring around the split prism.
>Now comes the autofocus SLR...the manufacturers begin with very bright >focusing screens that are near useless for manual focus, but when [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >that is counter to showing things sharp vs. somewhat unfocused for DOF >evaluation. So? You just put in a focusing screen that supports good manual focus.
Canon has several for the 1 bodies and there are third party solutions for the low end Canons.
The real problem with most DSLR's is found in the small sensor and the lack of a true pentaprism. *********************************************************
"I have been a witness, and these pictures are my testimony. The events I have recorded should not be forgotten and must not be repeated."
-James Nachtwey- http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/
DoN. Nichols - 26 Sep 2005 03:13 GMT According to John A. Stovall <johnastovall@earthlink.net>:
> >Not intimately familiar with the D70, but a long time ago with > >twin-lens reflexes point and shoots, the aerial image thru the aiming [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > with it's fresnel focusing screen with a microprism ring around the > split prism. Of course -- they were designed for *manual* focusing, as autofocus did not exist at the time. They also had changeable focusing screens because a microprism and split image which worked well with wide angle lenses would not work so well with a telephoto and vice versa -- as well as allowing you to select focusing screens better for a given set of conditions.
IIRC, the screens for the Nikon F where this mattered came in four different focal length ranges, to adapt to your lens focal length range.
For critical focus with really long lenses, or for working through a microscope, there was a plain ground glass screen (which would work equally dimly with all focal lengths) with a clear center spot with a fine '+' in the center. If you moved your head from side to side behind the viewfinder (assuming a rigidly mounted camera, of course), if the center area were truly in focus, you would see no relative motion between the '+' and the image. However, the more out of focus it was, the more relative motions was visible. This would work when any of the split image or microprism screens would not.
> >Now comes the autofocus SLR...the manufacturers begin with very bright > >focusing screens that are near useless for manual focus, but when [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > So? You just put in a focusing screen that supports good manual > focus. Easy to say. However, the D70 (and presumably the D70s) does not have interchangeable focusing screens -- at least in part because the autofocus depends on special microprisms oriented to concentrate on the autofocus sensors, not on the user's eye. Also, the focusing screen has a lot of active electro-optical displays on it, such things as the autofocus zone indicators and the grid which can be switched on and off. That means a lot of interconnections, which could make problems with contact quality every time you changed focusing screens.
> Canon has several for the 1 bodies and there are third party solutions > for the low end Canons. Is this true for the Cannon DSLRs? If so, does the Cannon DSLR also have active displays on the focusing screen as the Nikon does?
Enjoy, DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Jeremy Nixon - 26 Sep 2005 04:00 GMT > Is this true for the Cannon DSLRs? If so, does the Cannon DSLR > also have active displays on the focusing screen as the Nikon does? The active LCD displays are separate from the focusing screen. The Nikon D2x has interchangeable focusing screens; if you replace it, the active displays (focus area indicators) still work. The stock screen has crop lines for the "high speed crop" mode area; they also give you an alternate one with the camera that doesn't have those. I swapped them out since I never use "high speed crop" mode.
Unfortunately, there aren't any focusing screens available for the camera with manual focus aids.
 Signature Jeremy | jeremy@exit109.com
John A. Stovall - 26 Sep 2005 13:13 GMT snipped
> Is this true for the Cannon DSLRs? If so, does the Cannon DSLR >also have active displays on the focusing screen as the Nikon does? http://www.dpreview.com/news/0508/05082208canoneos1dmkiin.asp
The cameras focusing screens are interchangeable; an optional new Super Precision Matte Ec-S focusing screen enables easier manual focusing with fast lenses.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=breadCrumb&A=search&Q=&ci=4662
If you want to buy some.
*********************************************************
"I have been a witness, and these pictures are my testimony. The events I have recorded should not be forgotten and must not be repeated."
-James Nachtwey- http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/
no_name - 26 Sep 2005 01:07 GMT > This is weird.. I have a Nikon D70s.. just picked it up the other day.. > my first DSLR (after using a Nikon FE-2).. so i put on my 50mm 1.4 AiS [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > expected at f1.4... but how come what i see through the viewfinder is > not the same?!!!! The brain provides depth of field the camera lens cannot.
Hussam - 26 Sep 2005 18:48 GMT that's deep...
Beach Bum - 29 Sep 2005 21:46 GMT > Hussam wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > The brain provides depth of field the camera lens cannot.
> that's deep... Deeper than your perceived depth of field. <g>
 Signature Mark
Photos, Ideas & Opinions http://www.marklauter.com
Drifter - 26 Sep 2005 04:20 GMT >This is weird.. I have a Nikon D70s.. just picked it up the other day.. >my first DSLR (after using a Nikon FE-2).. so i put on my 50mm 1.4 AiS [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >p.s. i don't seem to have this problem with the AF-S 17-80mm DX (kit) >lens.. but then again.. its maximum aperture is already at f4.5.. I may not be much help here, I use Canon so don't have much specific experience with Nikon. Having said that, most Canon equipment has an "aperture preview" button. In other words you set your aperture but you will see nothing happen in the viewfinder. What's happening is that the aperture is staying pretty open to allow maximum light in so that you can see to focus. If you really want to see what effect the aperture is going to have you need to press the "aperture preview" button (to really check DOF and so forth).
I don't know if Nikon does it the same way.
Drifter "I've been here, I've been there..."
Alan Browne - 26 Sep 2005 15:18 GMT > This is weird.. I have a Nikon D70s.. just picked it up the other day.. > my first DSLR (after using a Nikon FE-2).. so i put on my 50mm 1.4 AiS [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > what's up with that?? The viewfinder is quite small, so there is not enough detail available to really determine what will be sharp in the final image.
DOF preview, DOF markings and DOF calculations are guides.
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Ben Brugman - 28 Sep 2005 22:18 GMT Not sure but I read somewhere that the viewfinder does not use a 'ground' glas but microlenses. These are optimised for 2.8 lensens. So the suggested effect would be that all lensens with a larger aperature show as a 2.8 lens.
You should be able to confirm this. Use the Dof button on 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4 etc. You should benoticing no or hardly any difference between the settings up to 2.8 and then there should be severe dimming and more dof above 2.8.
This does not explain your problem with the f3.5 lens.
Other factors come into play as wel, your eyes in combination with your brain can compensate a lot if the image is not totaly sharp. I know that my brain (especcially if I squint) can make a picture apear sharper than it actually is.
Lot's of people remarked that there are no focussing aids in the D70. I think the whole 'ground' glas can be used as a focusing aid because of the microlenses. But yes the size of the image is a lot smaller than that of a 35 mm slr.
Please report if the suggestion I give in the second alinea is confirmed by trying. (I do not posses a 1.4 lens so can not try this myself).
ben brugman
> This is weird.. I have a Nikon D70s.. just picked it up the other day.. > my first DSLR (after using a Nikon FE-2).. so i put on my 50mm 1.4 AiS [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > p.s. i don't seem to have this problem with the AF-S 17-80mm DX (kit) > lens.. but then again.. its maximum aperture is already at f4.5..
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