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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / September 2005

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Canon 70-200 F2.8 IS -v- non-IS Version

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Cockpit Colin - 19 Sep 2005 22:32 GMT
Hi all,

I'll be buying one of these in the next few weeks ...

My first inclination was to go for the IS version, but just when my mind was
made up I've been told by "someone who has a friend who is a pro-Canon
professional photographer" that the IS technology results in less sharpmess
compared to the non-IS version, even when the IS is switched off (eg being
used on a tripod).

I wouldn't have a clue either way - can any of you good folks give me the
benefit of your wisdom?

Many thanks,

Colin
C Wright - 20 Sep 2005 01:37 GMT
On 9/19/05 4:32 PM, in article Y7GXe.13054$iM2.1103209@news.xtra.co.nz,

> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Colin

Sounds like an urban myth type rumor to me!  Could that "someone who has a
friend . . ." produce some test shots?
 
Frank ess - 20 Sep 2005 02:01 GMT
> On 9/19/05 4:32 PM, in article
> Y7GXe.13054$iM2.1103209@news.xtra.co.nz, "Cockpit Colin"
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Sounds like an urban myth type rumor to me!  Could that "someone who
> has a friend . . ." produce some test shots?

Last I read, the IS need not be switched off for tripod use in later
models; if you try to use the wrong IS mode while panning, some
degradation is a possibility. What I know for sure, the IS has allowed
me to get some unexpectedly good results at amazingly low shutter
speeds.

Signature

Frank ess

Cockpit Colin - 20 Sep 2005 02:22 GMT
> Sounds like an urban myth type rumor to me!  Could that "someone who has a
> friend . . ." produce some test shots?

I wasn't 100% convinced either - but when I hear things like "has enough
money to have bought either, but bought the non-IS version because it was
sharper", I have to admit, it does rattle me somewhat :(

Since it's "the friend of a friend", it's not as easy to talk test shots -
especially as he doesn't own the IS version. I just thought some may have
some experience with both, or at least be able to point me in a direction
that dispells the myth.

Thanks,

CC
Skip M - 20 Sep 2005 03:04 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Colin

He's right on one aspect, the non IS version is marginally sharper than the
IS version, in ideal conditions.  The difference in sharpness is measurable,
but probably not visible to even the aided eye.  But the IS will enable you
to get sharper images, overall, than the non IS.  Even on a tripod, if you
are on a slightly unstable platform, like a bridge, dock or upper level
parking garage, there will be some movement.  IS will compensate for that.
The IS does not need to be turned off on that lens, the older IS lenses,
like the 75-300, 28-135 and 100-400 do have that.  But the second and third
generation of IS deals with a tripod just fine.  The 70-200 f2.8 is third
gen. IS.
IS is ALWAYS worth the price, if you can afford it.

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Cockpit Colin - 20 Sep 2005 07:07 GMT
Thanks Skip. One question though - you mentioned "that the 70-200 IS is
THIRD generation IS technology" - most of the reviews I read refer to it as
only 2nd generation - have they come out with a 3rd generation 70-200
(obviously that would be the one I would want if they had).

Cheers,

CC

> > Hi all,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> gen. IS.
> IS is ALWAYS worth the price, if you can afford it.
Skip M - 21 Sep 2005 01:49 GMT
> Thanks Skip. One question though - you mentioned "that the 70-200 IS is
> THIRD generation IS technology" - most of the reviews I read refer to it
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> CC

No, the 75-300, 28-135 were gen 1, the 100-400 L was gen 1 1/2 (had a
panning mode), the long teles, i.e. 300 f2.8L, 400 f2.8L, 500 f4L and 600
f4L were gen 2 (mount on tripod without turning IS off) and 70-200 is gen 3,
as is the new 28-105 f4L and 70-300 f4.5-5.6.  There's an extras stop of
compensation.

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Pix on Canvas - 20 Sep 2005 08:30 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Colin

The myths continue...
The non IS lens is capable of spectacular pictures and it seldom needs
"ideal" conditions to get them. It's one of the few Canon "L" series
lenses I have any respect for.

The Image stabilizer is another thing entirely. It is heavier to start
with and believe me these lenses are not for hand holding all day unless
you have a robotic arm!

There are several versions of IS from Canon (like their cameras they are
learning how to design properly). Only the latest version produces equal
sharpness to a non IS version and can be used on a tripod or wedged
against a rock.

Choose your subjects... Moving fast cars and birds in flight are a no,no
for the IS lens, regardless of what some might tell you. The Gyro takes
time to wind up and even tho there have been small strides made by
Canon, the thing still has to get going. Here in lies it's principal
fault. As far as low light is concerned, yes... It's ll give you a stop
or two but how many shots will you take in near darkness, Colin?

Signature

Douglas...
Have gun will travel... Said his card.
I didn't care, I shot him anyway.
1/125th @ f5.6. R.I.P. Mamiya.

Wolfgang Weisselberg - 26 Sep 2005 20:10 GMT
[Canon 70-200 F/2.8]
>> My first inclination was to go for the IS version, but just when my mind was
>> made up I've been told by "someone who has a friend who is a pro-Canon
>> professional photographer" that the IS technology results in less sharpmess
>> compared to the non-IS version, even when the IS is switched off (eg being
>> used on a tripod).

> The myths continue...
> The non IS lens is capable of spectacular pictures and it seldom needs
> "ideal" conditions to get them. It's one of the few Canon "L" series
> lenses I have any respect for.

So is the IS version, isn't it?

> The Image stabilizer is another thing entirely. It is heavier to start
> with and believe me these lenses are not for hand holding all day unless
> you have a robotic arm!

If you need to travel lightly, don't take the f/2.8, take the
f/4 in first place!

And yes, the f/2.8 IS isn't the lightest lens around.  Go see for
yourself if the weight of the non-IS or the f/4 is more appealing
to you.

> There are several versions of IS from Canon (like their cameras they are
> learning how to design properly). Only the latest version produces equal
> sharpness to a non IS version and can be used on a tripod or wedged
> against a rock.

The IS is the latest version.

> Choose your subjects... Moving fast cars and birds in flight are a no,no
> for the IS lens, regardless of what some might tell you.

Funny, somehow I manage.

> The Gyro takes time to wind up

approx 0.5s on half-pressure.  Unless you frame and never check
exposure nor AF, (manual focus and manual exposure, perhaps?),
then depress the shutter button for the first time, you'll probably
not notice.

If it's really a problem in a situation, you can shut off the IS
(Button on the lens).  But if you are shooting at 1/300s or faster
(lest you blur the moving subject), IS won't be needed anyway.
The first time you're using 1/100 or 1/50s, you'll know why you
wanted IS!

> and even tho there have been small strides made by
> Canon, the thing still has to get going. Here in lies it's principal
> fault.

... just like autofocus, mechanical things take time.

> As far as low light is concerned, yes... It's ll give you a stop
> or two but how many shots will you take in near darkness, Colin?

2.5 to 3 stops, actually.  If one stop does not matter either way,
get the f/4, it's half the price and probably half the weight, too!

IS is the difference between getting a worst-case[1] 200mm shot in
LV4 (1 LV above brightly lit night scenes) and a usable shot[2]
at LV7 (Indoors at day, outdoors shortly after sunset) versus
getting none in LV4 and a worst-case shot in LV7.  Even if you
use flash --- and you should, if you can --- the background light
will make your picture look and feel more natural.

[1] 1/60s f/2.8 @ ISO 3200, fast enough for many people shots.
[2] 1/90s f/2.8 @ ISO  800

You can of course always use a tripod.  Most people tend not
to carry one, all the time, though.  Maybe it's too heavy and
inflexible for their use cases?  Though astrophotographers do
not tend to complain about them and some wildlife/sports people
are of the 1/500s persuation, so YMMV, obviously.

-Wolfgang
eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 20 Sep 2005 18:06 GMT
> My first inclination was to go for the IS version, but just when my mind was
> made up I've been told by "someone who has a friend who is a pro-Canon
> professional photographer" that the IS technology results in less sharpmess
> compared to the non-IS version, even when the IS is switched off (eg being
> used on a tripod).

The difference is negligible.  Get the the IS version, unless you know
you will never be hand-holding it.
David Geesaman - 20 Sep 2005 18:47 GMT
>> My first inclination was to go for the IS version, but just when my mind
>> was
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> The difference is negligible.  Get the the IS version, unless you know
> you will never be hand-holding it.

   If you don't mind, please send me a negligible $500 check and make
yourself available to hold the camera for me since it will be heavier.

   Seriously, I think it's good that Canon has the IS and non-IS versions.
I shoot sports, and there isn't much need for it.  A monopod costs 1/10th
what the IS costs, and both get equally sharp pics.

   Dave
Skip M - 21 Sep 2005 01:54 GMT
>>> My first inclination was to go for the IS version, but just when my mind
>>> was
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>    Dave

It's 3/4 lb heavier.  And IS helps on a 'pod, too.
Despite what Doug says, IS works in panning on that lens, as it does on the
100-400, and the long teles.

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Pix on Canvas - 21 Sep 2005 02:16 GMT
> It's 3/4 lb heavier.  And IS helps on a 'pod, too.
> Despite what Doug says, IS works in panning on that lens, as it does on the
> 100-400, and the long teles.

Yes, if you don't want to track as well.

Signature

Douglas...
Have gun will travel... Said his card.
I didn't care, I shot him anyway.
1/125th @ f5.6. R.I.P. Mamiya.

eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 21 Sep 2005 02:28 GMT
>> It's 3/4 lb heavier.  And IS helps on a 'pod, too.
>> Despite what Doug says, IS works in panning on that lens, as it does on the
>> 100-400, and the long teles.
>
> Yes, if you don't want to track as well.

So sayeth the ignorant FUDster.  However, outside of its delusions,
with IS on or off, the 'tracking' is fine on all of the lenses
mentioned above.
Pix on Canvas - 21 Sep 2005 02:44 GMT
>>>It's 3/4 lb heavier.  And IS helps on a 'pod, too.
>>>Despite what Doug says, IS works in panning on that lens, as it does on the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> with IS on or off, the 'tracking' is fine on all of the lenses
> mentioned above.

So according the deciple... You can put your 70~200 on a tripod with IS
switched on and use it in focus tracking on a 20D? I'd like to see that
one produce sharp pictures.

I've got plenty of examples to prove the opposite. Switch off IS and
amazingly the same subject is focused sharply next time 'round... I must
have had a different 70~200 "L" series f2.8 IS lens to you, do you
think? Oh yes... Mine was white!

Signature

Douglas...
Have gun will travel... Said his card.
I didn't care, I shot him anyway.
1/125th @ f5.6. R.I.P. Mamiya.

eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 21 Sep 2005 04:08 GMT
Pix on Canvas sputters:

>> So sayeth the ignorant FUDster.  However, outside of its delusions,
>> with IS on or off, the 'tracking' is fine on all of the lenses
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> switched on and use it in focus tracking on a 20D? I'd like to see that
> one produce sharp pictures.

The issue was 'panning' ... you know, actively tracking a moving
subject, not this 'focus tracking' red-herring you now raise.  (Even if
that was what you were talking about, focus tracking has little to do
with image stabilization.  Nitwit.)

> I've got plenty of examples to prove the opposite.

Are they like the "P&S camera captures more shadow detail than a dSLR"
examples you posted a few months back?  You know, the one where you
gave a full two stops more light to the P&S?  Remember that?  Or is the
memory just too painful?

Not hat even if you have such images, and they are what you claim to
purport, I can present exemplars of my own which show the exact
opposite.  That is to say, dingbat, you appear to have technique issues
to resolve...

> Switch off IS and amazingly the same subject is focused sharply
> next time 'round... I must have had a different 70~200 "L" series f2.8
> IS lens to you, do you think? Oh yes... Mine was white!

Personally, I don't believe you now own, or at any time have ever
owned, such a lens.  There is a notable lack of evidence, and a
disgusting shoddiness with your handling of facts.  Even if those
weren't issues, your _demonstrable_ inability to construct a reliable
experiment, let alone report its results with any veracity, makes any
claims from you more than a heap of stinky FUD.

By the way, if you are going to killfile me again, please give me the
name of your newsreader so I can google up the instructions for you --
you appear to have f.cked up the job the last time you tried.  Don't
remember?  By all means, re-read it:

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.photo.digital/msg/d1378b4b85b717e5?dmode=sourc
e&hl=en

Pix on Canvas - 21 Sep 2005 07:45 GMT
> Personally, I don't believe you now own, or at any time have ever
> owned, such a lens.  There is a notable lack of evidence, and a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.photo.digital/msg/d1378b4b85b717e5?dmode=sourc
e&hl=en

Still acting like a coward and still distorting the situation. Since
when does tracking become panning?

I couldn't care less what an anonymous troll had to say about anything.
If you ever did identify yourself and maybe let us see some of your
sharply focused pictures from your 70~200 with IS turned on while
tracking a moving target from a tripod, you might get a grain of
credibility. As it is you are just another floater in bowl that sooner
or later will get flushed away with the rest.

Signature

Douglas...
Have gun will travel... Said his card.
I didn't care, I shot him anyway.
1/125th @ f5.6. R.I.P. Mamiya.

eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 21 Sep 2005 16:05 GMT
> Still acting like a coward and still distorting the situation. Since
> when does tracking become panning?

Skip M was talking about "panning" (go look it up).

You babble about "tracking" and "focus".

I call you on _your_ distortion, idiot red herring, goal-posting, etc.

You start crying, and (hilariously) ask "when does tracking become
panning"?

Intellectually dishonest physician, heal thyself.
Skip M - 21 Sep 2005 22:55 GMT
Not the 70-200 IS, but the 100-400 IS, another lens you called into
question:

http://www.pbase.com/skipm/image/44142568

http://www.pbase.com/skipm/image/44142567
Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

>
>> Personally, I don't believe you now own, or at any time have ever
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> is you are just another floater in bowl that sooner or later will get
> flushed away with the rest.
Skip M - 21 Sep 2005 23:35 GMT
>> I couldn't care less what an anonymous troll had to say about anything.
>> If you ever did identify yourself and maybe let us see some of your
>> sharply focused pictures from your 70~200 with IS turned on while
>> tracking a moving target from a tripod, you might get a grain of
>> credibility. As it is you are just another floater in bowl that sooner or
>> later will get flushed away with the rest.

Sorry about the inadvertent top post...

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

> Not the 70-200 IS, but the 100-400 IS, another lens you called into
> question:
>
> http://www.pbase.com/skipm/image/44142568
>
> http://www.pbase.com/skipm/image/44142567

Both tracking and panning...
Stan Birch - 20 Sep 2005 19:41 GMT
>IS technology results in less sharpness compared to the non-IS version,
>even when the IS is switched off (eg being used on a tripod).

Yes, optical quality on the non-IS objectively beats out the IS by a
hair at 60 yards when both are mounted on tripods. If my recollection
is correct, the difference is attributable to the additional element
required for IS gyro. And if all of your photos are going to be taken
with a tripod, mirror-up, then the non-IS might provide you with a
nominal advantage; but it won't provide you with anything that can't
be accomplished just as well with routine post-processing.

But using a lens like this in the real world; and perhaps with a 1.4X
which translates into virtual hand held shooting at 450mm; any modest
advantage provided by the non-IS lens will pale in comparison to
shakey-camera-syndrome.

Regardless of superlatives, my 70-200 IS under ideal conditions,
handheld shots produce stunningly sharp pics; far beyond need. Under
less favourable circumstances, I can only speculate as how much IS
contributed to the final results.

Bottom line: I couldn't be more pleased with the performance of my
70-200 2.8L IS, which is oft attached to a 1.4X!

But I've only provided a single insignificant opinion. For further
extensive array of user experiences, check out:  

http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showcat.php?cat=27

Regardless of your choice of an 70-200 2.8L, there is no way you'll be
dissapointed with either.
John A. Stovall - 21 Sep 2005 00:56 GMT
>Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>I wouldn't have a clue either way - can any of you good folks give me the
>benefit of your wisdom?

Take a look at these test images.

http://www.photo.net/equipment/canon/is_lenses/

"Conclusion

The conclusion is that IS works. With the 75-300/4-5.6IS lens, you
probably gain at least 2 stops, probably three stops, of hand
holdability. Under the lowest light conditions, the consumer zoom IS
lens can outperform an "L" series non-IS lens (though it wouldn't beat
the 300/4L IS lens!). On a tripod, the "L" lens is a clear winner, but
for web images the difference will most likely not be visible."
*********************************************************

"I have been a witness, and these pictures are
my testimony. The events I have recorded should
not be forgotten and must not be repeated."

                             -James Nachtwey-
                        http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/
nick c - 21 Sep 2005 03:09 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Colin

I "carried" the 70-200 f2.8 IS lens attached to the 1DMK11 camera body
for a full days shooting and at the end of the day I was so damn tired
of carrying the weight, I didn't care if I never used the 70-200 f2.8 IS
lens again. That's not to say the lens is a dog, no, not by any means. I
consider the lens to rate among the best of Canon, but the weight was
just too much for me to enjoy the use of my equipment.

Upon returning the lens to the store (it was a loaner), I instead bought
the 70-200 f-4 and the 70-300 DO IS lens for about the same costs as the
70-200 F2.8 IS lens. Actually, both lenses were a tad slightly cheaper
than the 70-200 f2.8 IS lens. I have yet to regret my decision. The
20-200 f4 is a great lens (photo quality as good as the 70-200 F2.8 IS
lens) and it's usefulness is no different than the many years spent with
other 70-200 f4 lenses such as the old Nikon lens. I use the lens for
portraits (babies to adults) and for other non-recreational uses. The
70-300 DO IS may not be quite as good as the 70-200 f2.8 IS lens but
it's a hell-of-a-lot more versatile and the difference in photo quality,
to the naked eye, is so minimal it may well be considered imperceptible;
that is, in the 70-200 range. I use this lens for recreational
activities and I consider this lens to be a winner.

The final decision is your call Colin but I would suggest you seek a way
to have a days shooting with the 70-200 f2.8 IS lens in manners you will
tend to use the lens and then decide accordingly. The lens is not
inexpensive and you may opt, as I did, to consider other equally useful
alternatives.
Pix on Canvas - 21 Sep 2005 11:35 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Colin

Colin... Just to ease you mind about this expensive purchase, I thought
you'd like to see a real world example of what you can expect. I shot
this (and about 50 others just as sharp) from a rubber boat during a
shoot in 2003.

The EXIF reports a dud shutter speed but this used to happen when I used
the 1.4x converter. Despite what a spineless troll suggested, I really
do have the evidence to back up my claims!

Signature

Douglas...
Have gun will travel... Said his card.
I didn't care, I shot him anyway.
1/125th @ f5.6. R.I.P. Mamiya.

Pix on Canvas - 21 Sep 2005 12:45 GMT
> Colin... Just to ease you mind about this expensive purchase, I thought
> you'd like to see a real world example of what you can expect. I shot
> this (and about 50 others just as sharp) from a rubber boat during a
> shoot in 2003.

Whoops... Forgot the URL!
Age is not the problem, it's the demon drink! Too much water and not
enough Scotch.
http://www.canvasphotos.com.au/70200-pics.htm

Signature

Douglas...

 
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