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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / September 2005

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Colour Temp

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Bruce - 14 Sep 2005 22:28 GMT
I'm still trying to fathom out the D70, I seem to get a blue cast to all my
photo's except those taken on a sunny day with clear sky,I know it's to do
with colour temp.Most days in the UK are cloudy so which way do I alter the
colour temp to warm it up a bit?

Best Wishes
Bruce
( Illegitimi non carborundum est )
eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 14 Sep 2005 23:28 GMT
> I'm still trying to fathom out the D70, I seem to get a blue cast to all my
> photo's except those taken on a sunny day with clear sky,I know it's to do
> with colour temp.Most days in the UK are cloudy so which way do I alter the
> colour temp to warm it up a bit?

What the heck?

 www.google.com: color temperature setting

immediately gives you

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature

which answers your question -- see the colour temperature table.  As
for how to handle a completely unknown situation, use the artillery
maxim "always make bold corrections".  Or just do what everyone else
does:  if in doubt, put in on AWB for the JPEG, and collect a raw image
and figure it out later at the computer.
Alan Wonsowski - 15 Sep 2005 00:54 GMT
Helo Bruce,

There are many different factors and settings on the D70, including
exposure and white balance adjustments that may affect the final
images. You may want to consider the e-book by Thom Hogan. He reviews
the D70 and all of the settings in great detail but also, in an
understandable way. A link to his site follows:

http://www.bythom.com/d70guide.htm

Regards,
Alan

>I'm still trying to fathom out the D70, I seem to get a blue cast to all my
>photo's except those taken on a sunny day with clear sky,I know it's to do
>with colour temp.Most days in the UK are cloudy so which way do I alter the
>colour temp to warm it up a bit?
DoN. Nichols - 15 Sep 2005 05:30 GMT
According to Bruce <brucefalcon@blueyonder.co.uk>:
> I'm still trying to fathom out the D70, I seem to get a blue cast to all my
> photo's except those taken on a sunny day with clear sky,I know it's to do
> with colour temp.Most days in the UK are cloudy so which way do I alter the
> colour temp to warm it up a bit?

    Just for the fun of it -- switch on your camera, and take a look
at the display on the top.  Along the bottom line, from left to right,
you should first see a box containing the indicator for the image
quality (RAW, FINE, NORM, BASIC, and "RAW+BASIC" (both indicators are
on).

    Next is a box containing the resolution, L(arge), M(edium) or
S(mall). If you have selected "RAW" in the first area, then the second
will be blank.

    Then -- just to the right of that, starting with the letters
"WB" there are a series of indicators along the bottom line, of which
only one will be turned on.  They are (in order) A (auto white balance),
a light bulb (Tungsten), a horizontal bar with rays (Fluorescent light),
The Sun (a round dot with rays), A lighting bolt (electronic flash), a
cloud (cloudy day), a house casting shade to the right (lighting in
shade), and finally, the letters "PRE".

    These can be selected by holding in the "WB" button to the left
of the image delay, while rotating the thumbwheel.  In some of these, a
number appears to the left of center in the top row, which can be
changed by the index finger wheel.  (If the number is other than zero,
you will see an arrow under the letters "WB" to indicate that you are
not using the default value of the settings.

    In any of these settings other than the 'A' setting, you are
using a fixed white balance, which will be wrong for *most* situations,
and right for only one set of conditions.  Note that the "PRE" setting
lets you take a reading from a 18% gray card for the lighting conditions
in which you find yourself (you'll have to go to the menus to take the
reading), which can give you optimum white balance for unusual or
awkward conditions.

    For many things, just leaving it in the 'A' setting will work
out fairly well.  Verify whether you are there or not.  If not, try that
setting to see how it does in your various conditions.  (And, you can
play with the value of the number once you are in any setting other than
"PRE".

    If you are in any setting other than 'A', and are leaving it
there, that is probably the source of your primary problems.  You may
wish to sometimes select for a specific lighting using the "WB" button
and the thumbwheel and index finger wheel, but for convenience, the "A"
setting may work well enough for you.

    Taking a series of shots which you intend to join with some
photo program's stitching option calls for manually selecting a white
balance, so things don't change (as they will with the "Auto" setting as
you point the camera in various directions.

    Also -- a scene which has a predominance of an uncommon color
can confuse the Auto white balance, so you may wish to use one of the
manual modes there.

    The "PRE" option is the most flexible -- but it requires the
ability to get the gray card in there to be photographed, which may be
awkward or impossible in some situations.

    There are several pages devoted to all of this in the manual,
but I understand that there is a lot of manual out there -- difficult to
absorb it all in one reading.  It helps to re-read it from time to time
as you become more familiar with your camera, as you will pick up extra
things which you can use each time.

    And, of course, as has already been suggested in another
followup, shoot in RAW, and adjust the white balance in the computer
afterwards.

    I hope that this helps,
        DoN.
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JMW - 15 Sep 2005 14:44 GMT
> I'm still trying to fathom out the D70, I seem to get a blue cast to all my
> photo's except those taken on a sunny day with clear sky,I know it's to do
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Bruce
> ( Illegitimi non carborundum est )

Lower it.

Jan
Alan Browne - 15 Sep 2005 14:55 GMT
> I'm still trying to fathom out the D70, I seem to get a blue cast to all my
> photo's except those taken on a sunny day with clear sky,I know it's to do
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Bruce
> ( Illegitimi non carborundum est )

If you're recording RAW then you can easilly adjust this during import
to PS.

On the Maxxum 7D, there is a temperature setting (100K increments), so
you can quickly "map" out the temperatures that suit the lighting (I
don't use the AWB or PWB).

If the D70 has such, I suggest you get famillar with simply setting the
temp for the lighting.

generally, incandescent lighting is around 3800K, "raw daylight" is
around 5500K and upwards, open shade is 8000K and upwards.

I find that overcast is best set at 5500K.

Again, at RAW import, play with the color temp and you'll see it right away.

Cheers,
Alan.

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David Littlewood - 15 Sep 2005 15:44 GMT
>> I'm still trying to fathom out the D70, I seem to get a blue cast to all my
>> photo's except those taken on a sunny day with clear sky,I know it's to do
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Again, at RAW import, play with the color temp and you'll see it right away.

For those interested in trying a range of lighting:

candle flame/oil lamp                   2000K or less
torch bulb                                   2200-2500K
small tungsten bulb (<100W)       2600K
large tungsten bulb (>/=100W)     2800K
standard lamp for sensitometry    2848K
photoflood bulbs                         3400K
sunrise/sunset                           3000-3500K
early morning/late evening           3500-4500K
sunlight                                     5000K
normal daylight                           5500K
overcast                                     7500K
blue north sky                            10,000-20,000K

(Source - mostly Focal Encyclopedia, plus a few extras)

Note these are of necessity approximate. The daylight in northern
winters may never get beyond 4500K even at noon.

These figures, and indeed the concept of colour temperature at all, only
apply to incandescent light sources, i.e. those which behave like a
black body and emit a continuous spectrum of light purely determined by
their thermal temperature. Discontinuous sources (fluorescent lights,
sodium vapour lamps, mercury lamps, neon lamps and other sources using
electrical stimulation of gases) have a light emission showing one or
more narrow bands of wavelength, and do not fir in with this concept.

It is quite significant that the effect of colour temperature changes is
more or less reciprocal. That means that a change from 2000K to 2500K is
about the same (and requires the same filtration to correct) as that
from 5000K to 10,000K (100 mireds in both cases). This means that small
errors in estimating colour temperature at the low end may have a far
greater effect than expected.

David
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David Littlewood

Alan Browne - 15 Sep 2005 16:26 GMT
> errors in estimating colour temperature at the low end may have a far
> greater effect than expected.

Great post David, and thanks for the correct temp on incandescent.

But you should have posted it in reply to the OP.

Cheerc,
Alan

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David Littlewood - 15 Sep 2005 17:38 GMT
>> errors in estimating colour temperature at the low end may have a far
>>greater effect than expected.
>
>Great post David, and thanks for the correct temp on incandescent.
>
>But you should have posted it in reply to the OP.

Well, it was just for general interest really, and sparked off by the
debate rather than the original question, but point taken.

David
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David Littlewood

DoN. Nichols - 15 Sep 2005 23:18 GMT
According to Alan Browne  <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca>:

> > errors in estimating colour temperature at the low end may have a far
> > greater effect than expected.
>
> Great post David, and thanks for the correct temp on incandescent.
>
> But you should have posted it in reply to the OP.

    He didn't?  It was in the same thread as the original question,
and with any proper threading newsreader, it should be identifiable with
the original question.  What more do you want -- do you want him to
e-mail to the original poster?  (Assuming that his e-mail address was
not munged.)  It is information useful to many in this newsgroup.  I
posted a followup dealing with the white balance controls available on
the D70, his focused on the meaning of color temperature.  Both may help
the original poster.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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Alan Browne - 16 Sep 2005 02:40 GMT
> According to Alan Browne  <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca>:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the original question.  What more do you want -- do you want him to
> e-mail to the original poster?

No, simply reply to the OPost not to another post in reply.  David L.
always has things worth saying to say, so best that it be directly under
the original post.  He wasn't "debating" what I wrote, he was supplying
more complete information.  (Although he did correct what I could claim
as a typo but was really just a neuron out of order).

  (Assuming that his e-mail address was
> not munged.)  It is information useful to many in this newsgroup.  I
> posted a followup dealing with the white balance controls available on
> the D70, his focused on the meaning of color temperature.  Both may help
> the original poster.

Funny how the guy I wrote that to was more understanding of the intent
of my message wrt to posting.

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DoN. Nichols - 16 Sep 2005 04:37 GMT
According to Alan Browne  <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca>:

> > According to Alan Browne  <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca>:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> more complete information.  (Although he did correct what I could claim
> as a typo but was really just a neuron out of order).

    Oh -- so what you were suggesting was that he back up the thread
and reply to the original *article*.  I'm accustomed to "OP" meaning
"Original Poster" -- the individual, not the article.

    Sometimes, it can be difficult to back up that far, depending on
your newsreader, and your news server.  Until recently, I would have had
no problem doing that, as I ran my own private news server, with
newsgroups of special interest to me having long expire times.  Now, I
am subscribed to newsguy, and I find that articles are vanishing more
quickly, and some just not coming in.

    In a while I will be with a new ISP, who *does* still offer
newsfeeds to private news servers.  My old one dropped that, and then a
week later, dropped their news server which did not even support this
newsgroup.  (That is why I was out of contact for a while.)

>    (Assuming that his e-mail address was
> > not munged.)  It is information useful to many in this newsgroup.  I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Funny how the guy I wrote that to was more understanding of the intent
> of my message wrt to posting.

    Perhaps because I have a different understanding of "OP". :-)

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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David Littlewood - 16 Sep 2005 11:04 GMT
>According to Alan Browne  <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca>:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>       Enjoy,
>               DoN.

OK guys, let's not start WW3 over this.

The OP asked a question about blue skies and colour temperature. Alan
gave a very useful answer which pretty well sorted the OP's question,
and added a little information to broaden the issue. I added some more
detail, which also slightly corrected or clarified one of Alan's figures
- though let it be said that these things are not that precise, and it
was not meant as a criticism.

I intended this information to the readership in general (as the OP's
original query should have been sorted), and as it was building on
Alan's contribution (and that was in front of me so it was easiest!)
then I followed up on that post. Perhaps Alan felt I was implicitly
accusing ^him^ of not knowing this stuff, and if I gave that impression
I apologise, I know Alan is a knowledgeable photographer.

The technicalities of going back up the thread were not in issue here.
It may be in other cases, as my reader is set to expire posts after 5
days, and I sometimes have to make indirect replies; not so here.

Can we put this to bed?

David
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David Littlewood

Alan Browne - 17 Sep 2005 16:54 GMT
>     Oh -- so what you were suggesting was that he back up the thread
> and reply to the original *article*.  I'm accustomed to "OP" meaning
> "Original Poster" -- the individual, not the article.

Yes.  In context it can mean either, AFAIAC.

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Bruce - 16 Sep 2005 19:00 GMT
Before things get out of hand I would like to thank all the people who have
taken the time & trouble to give such useful & detailed information.

Bruce Falcon (Liverpool UK)

> > According to Alan Browne  <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca>:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Funny how the guy I wrote that to was more understanding of the intent
> of my message wrt to posting.
Alan Browne - 17 Sep 2005 16:55 GMT
> Before things get out of hand I would like to thank all the people who have
> taken the time & trouble to give such useful & detailed information.

eh?  A mere bagatelle.  When threads get "out of hand" here, you really
know it....

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