Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / August 2005
megapixels and sensor size
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Jon Nadelberg - 28 Aug 2005 19:10 GMT Since it looks like Canon is coming out with a full 35mm frame sensor, and it's about 6mp, would that be the equivalent to the current sensor size but with 3mp?
I would think for the same density of megapixels in the larger frame, the number of MPs would go up proportionately.
Or is this not right?
Toa - 28 Aug 2005 19:14 GMT > I would think for the same density of megapixels in the larger frame, the > number of MPs would go up proportionately. Maybe each of the pixels are bigger?
Toa
dylan - 28 Aug 2005 19:26 GMT > Since it looks like Canon is coming out with a full 35mm frame sensor, and > it's about 6mp, The 5D has 12.8MPs
>would that be the equivalent to the current sensor size but with 3mp? The 5D sensor surface area is 2.535 x the 20D sensor so presumably 12.8/2.535 = 5MPs
> I would think for the same density of megapixels in the larger frame, the > number of MPs would go up proportionately. > > Or is this not right? Yes (if I understand the question)
John A. Stovall - 28 Aug 2005 19:53 GMT >> Since it looks like Canon is coming out with a full 35mm frame sensor, and >> it's about 6mp, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The 5D sensor surface area is 2.535 x the 20D sensor so presumably >12.8/2.535 = 5MPs No, the 5D pixel size is 8.5x8.5 µm while the 20D pixel size is 6.4x6.4 µm.
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"I believe that all government is evil, in that all government must necessarily make war upon liberty...
From "Mencken's Creed" H.L. Mencken (1880 -1956)
dylan - 28 Aug 2005 20:38 GMT >>> Since it looks like Canon is coming out with a full 35mm frame sensor, >>> and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > No, the 5D pixel size is 8.5x8.5 µm while the 20D pixel size is > 6.4x6.4 µm. No ? Is that what he meant, pixel size not sensor size ?, not how I read it but you maybe right.
Jon Nadelberg - 29 Aug 2005 02:09 GMT >>Since it looks like Canon is coming out with a full 35mm frame sensor, and >>it's about 6mp, > > The 5D has 12.8MPs Oh, ok. So, 12.8 MPs.
So the density of pixels is about the same, just a bigger area.
I guess I'm just trying to see where MP counts come in when you have a different sensor size. Since the 5D has such a larger sensor, then the 12.8 MP would not be equivalent in resolution to a 12.8 MP camera with a smaller sensor, such as a D2X (not that I'm about to buy that....).
Also, if the pixel size is a bit larger, how does that affect resolution? I would think a larger pixel size would reduce resolution, but probably not where it is really noticeable.
dylan - 29 Aug 2005 08:50 GMT > Oh, ok. So, 12.8 MPs. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 12.8 MP would not be equivalent in resolution to a 12.8 MP camera with a > smaller sensor, such as a D2X (not that I'm about to buy that....). The D2X will have higher resolution (its covers a smaller area of the image) BUT theoretically will have a worse noise figure due to smaller pixels. read the bottom of this page http://www.dpreview.com/articles/canoneos5d/
> Also, if the pixel size is a bit larger, how does that affect resolution? It's obviously lower but noise is better.
I would think a larger pixel size would reduce resolution,
> but probably not where it is really noticeable. Resolution is noticable, all other things equal, until you reach the limit of the eye.
Cheers
David J Taylor - 29 Aug 2005 09:18 GMT []
>> The 5D has 12.8MPs > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > resolution? I would think a larger pixel size would reduce > resolution, but probably not where it is really noticeable. In the final image, viewed at a constant size, the number of pixels affects the apparent quality of the image as perceived by the viewer. So the same scene taken with a 6MP sensor would not look as sharp as with a 12MP sensor, but you may need to hold the print quite close to see this (depending on the print size).
As the 5D has larger pixels, when using the same lens each pixel will have a larger angular subtense and so cover a greater area of the scene. Each pixel subtense is a lower spatial frequency, and therefore be working in a region of the MTF curve for the lens nearer to the left side, perhaps where the MTF is higher. Therefore, the 5D's pixels should be less reliant on lenses with an extended MTF, so the lens should be less of a limiting factor in terms of image resolution.
Of course, the trade-off for the lower resolution is the wider angular field of view of the image with a given lens. There is another effect as well independant of lens. Rays of light near the edge of the sensor arrive at a greater angle of incidence than those at the centre. In a full-frame sensor the angle of arrival is greater than in a smaller sensor (for the same lens), and this makes it more difficult for the sensor to respond correctly. It remains to be seen how well Canon have dealt with this problem.
David
Gisle Hannemyr - 29 Aug 2005 10:45 GMT > Also, if the pixel size is a bit larger, how does that affect > resolution? I would think a larger pixel size would reduce > resolution, but probably not where it is really noticeable. It will give you less resolution at the surface of the sensor, yes. But it is very few of us that view our photographs by examining the photon wells at the surface of the sensor.
The normal way to view a photograph is to make a print on (20 x 30 cm say) paper, and then look at this print.
If your favoured way of looking at photpgraphs is viewing prints, (rather than sensors), you'll discover that the pixel has no size, and the most important characteristic to determine maximum resolution is the /pixel count/.
(The size of physical sensor cells still matters, because they decide such factors as noise, dynamic range, etc. - but for all those factors, bigger is generally better.)
This particular aspect of digital photography seems to confuse some people, so I've but up a webpage where I try to answer the most frequently asked questions about pixels, please see: http://folk.uio.no/gisle/photo/pixels.html
 Signature - gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Nadelberg - 30 Aug 2005 00:35 GMT >>Also, if the pixel size is a bit larger, how does that affect >>resolution? I would think a larger pixel size would reduce [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > But it is very few of us that view our photographs by examining > the photon wells at the surface of the sensor. That's how my photos look best.
But thanks I think I have it.
Beach Bum - 30 Aug 2005 03:26 GMT > Oh, ok. So, 12.8 MPs. > > So the density of pixels is about the same, just a bigger area. No, the 5D pixels are about 20% bigger based on my calculations.
> I guess I'm just trying to see where MP counts come in when you have a > different sensor size. Since the 5D has such a larger sensor, then the > 12.8 MP would not be equivalent in resolution to a 12.8 MP camera with a > smaller sensor, such as a D2X (not that I'm about to buy that....). Larger pixels = more sensitivity to light and less noise.
> Also, if the pixel size is a bit larger, how does that affect > resolution? I would think a larger pixel size would reduce resolution, > but probably not where it is really noticeable. Larger pixels reduces resolution because you can fit less pixels on the sensor, but larger pixels perform better and result in higher image quality.
 Signature Mark
Photos, Ideas & Opinions http://www.marklauter.com
John A. Stovall - 28 Aug 2005 19:49 GMT >Since it looks like Canon is coming out with a full 35mm frame sensor, >and it's about 6mp, would that be the equivalent to the current sensor [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Or is this not right? It's 12 megapixels and here is what you want to know...
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/canoneos5d/
A comparison of pixel density and size to sensor size... *************************************************************
"I believe that all government is evil, in that all government must necessarily make war upon liberty...
From "Mencken's Creed" H.L. Mencken (1880 -1956)
Jon Nadelberg - 29 Aug 2005 02:17 GMT >>Since it looks like Canon is coming out with a full 35mm frame sensor, >>and it's about 6mp, would that be the equivalent to the current sensor [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > A comparison of pixel density and size to sensor size... OK, read it. So they did make the pixels large to compensate for the larger sensor size. I assume that because the canon EOS 1DS has a larger pixel size than the Nikon D2X, but has a bigger overall MP count, that the Canon has a somewhat larger sensor than the Nikon.
So, if you increase the pixel count for the 5D, how much resolution do you lose? It seems to me that while it has a full frame sensor, it is simply not going to have close to the same sort of resolution that you could get with smaller sensor 12.8 mp cameras.
dylan - 29 Aug 2005 08:52 GMT > OK, read it. So they did make the pixels large to compensate for the > larger sensor size. I assume that because the canon EOS 1DS has a larger [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So, if you increase the pixel count for the 5D, how much resolution do you > lose? None you improve resolution
> It seems to me that while it has a full frame sensor, it is simply not > going to have close to the same sort of resolution that you could get with > smaller sensor 12.8 mp cameras. Correct, but you will find that resolution isn't everything, noise can be more important.
Skip M - 29 Aug 2005 04:27 GMT > Since it looks like Canon is coming out with a full 35mm frame sensor, and > it's about 6mp, would that be the equivalent to the current sensor size [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Or is this not right? See the pixel comparison, here: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/canoneos5d/
Near the bottom of the page.
BTW, the 5D is 12.8 megapixel, not 6. Six was passed a couple of generations ago...
 Signature Skip Middleton http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
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