Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / August 2005
D70 Fill flash overexposed wildly
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Paul Furman - 07 Aug 2005 16:36 GMT I generally haven't paid much attention to flash, I don't know what's going on but recently when I try popping up the flash on my D70 for daylight fill in aperture priority, it throws the exposure way off. I just tested & it came out fine but this has happened to me several times out in the field when I couldn't figure out what was going on.
Any clues what I might have done to cause that? The situation is usually bright sunlit scenes with backlit or dark shadows which need fill. The sunlit stuff goes pure white.
 Signature Paul Furman http://www.edgehill.net/1 san francisco native plants
wilt - 07 Aug 2005 17:56 GMT Perhaps the problem is that your camera automatically selects a maximum shutter speed compatible with flash, and the shutter speed + lens aperture that is selected causes too much ambient light to overexpose the picture.
--Wilt
Paul Furman - 07 Aug 2005 18:04 GMT > Perhaps the problem is that your camera automatically selects a maximum > shutter speed compatible with flash, and the shutter speed + lens > aperture that is selected causes too much ambient light to overexpose > the picture. I don't know. Is there a setting that would effect the aperture/shutter when turning on flash? Maybe the TTL metering is confusing things. I've had this happen a few times recently.
Best I can figure in a bright scene the TTL flash metering can't see much of any effect from the flash so it miscalculates. I just did a test of sunlight on a B&W checkerboard floor with sun beaming across part of it. With no flash, the white is slightly overexposed, with flash, the white is badly overexposed.
 Signature Paul Furman http://www.edgehill.net/1 san francisco native plants
Ed Ruf - 07 Aug 2005 18:31 GMT >> Perhaps the problem is that your camera automatically selects a maximum >> shutter speed compatible with flash, and the shutter speed + lens [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >it. With no flash, the white is slightly overexposed, with flash, the >white is badly overexposed. You didn't have spot exposure set did you? ---------- Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com) See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
wilt - 07 Aug 2005 19:01 GMT >>wilt wrote: > >Perhaps the problem is that your camera automatically selects a maximum > >shutter speed compatible with flash, and the shutter speed + lens > >aperture that is selected causes too much ambient light to overexpose > >the picture.
>I don't know. Is there a setting that would effect the aperture/shutter >when turning on flash? Maybe the TTL metering is confusing things I suggest reading your owner's manual. I don't own a D70, but my Canon 20D sets a maximum shutter speed of 1/250 when flash is on.
Depending upon whether you have your camera set to Auto, Program, Tv, Av, or manual, or one of the other special automatic modes (like for portraits) the programming of your camera could be having an effect when the programming is trying to balance the ambient vs. flash exposure vs attempting to use large lens apertures to shoot in portrait mode...and it cannot effect the combination of conditions asked of it.
Paul Furman - 07 Aug 2005 19:35 GMT > Canon 20D sets a maximum shutter speed of 1/250 when flash is on. I can't go faster than 1/500 on the D70 even in manual mode. Why is it that the camera doesn't want a faster speed when doing flash? <scratching head> Hmm because the flash itself is that slow? Still, there should be some way to override this, I don't miind losing flash power, it's just fill. I want f/4 3200 & I want flash but it doesn't seem to be possible.
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wilt - 07 Aug 2005 19:50 GMT > can't go faster than 1/500 on the D70 even in manual mode. Why is it >that the camera doesn't want a faster speed when doing flash? Focal plane shutters are a pair of 'curtains' that move across the sensor/film to expose. The width of the slit gets smaller as you increase the shutter speed. Every focal plane shutter design has a maximum speed at which the 'slit' is the full size of frame, and that is the 'X synch' speed maximum, or the speed where the electronic flash can fully fill the frame when it goes off to make the image.
> Still, there should be some way to override this, I don't miind losing flash >power, it's just fill. If you *could* override this shutter speed, you would have only a very narrow slit on the frame which is open at the time the flash goes off, so only that area would be exposed (for all-flash) or filled (for fill flash). The automation in your camera prevents you from doing something stupid like that...older manual cameras let you screw up!
DoN. Nichols - 08 Aug 2005 02:53 GMT >> can't go faster than 1/500 on the D70 even in manual mode. Why is it >>that the camera doesn't want a faster speed when doing flash? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >is the 'X synch' speed maximum, or the speed where the electronic flash >can fully fill the frame when it goes off to make the image. This is true for a normal focal plane shutter. However, the D70 has a dual shutter. The mechanical focal plane shutter never goes into the range where less than the full frame is exposed at a given time, and a secondary shutter effect is accomplished by the sensor electronics, allowing the sensor to gather light only for very short intervals somewhen during the time that the mechanical focal plane is fully open.
It may be that there is some "ringing" in the brightness level during flash -- that the brightness from varies during the time the shutter is open, and below a certain exposure time, it may not be possible to predict the brightness. I know that such ringing is common in pulses in electronic circuits, and since the power to the flash is indeed a very fast pulse, I could easily see ringing as possible.
Also -- the brightness of the flash is controlled by first triggering the flash tube to start the flash, and then some variable time later, a second similar device is triggered to steal the power from the flashlamp. It may be that the cycle time of this operation (at worst case full flash power) is what is requiring the shutter speed limitations. A close-up requires very little light, so the flash tube is allowed to operate for only a very short time, but with a distant subject, the flash duration may be much longer -- perhaps as long as the 1/500th of a second which the camera sets as the highest shutter speed with flash.
You could experiment with an oscilloscope and a fast photocell and observe the duration of the flash during close-ups, and at distances where the flash is not quite sufficient to illuminate the subject, and see whether this latter situation has a flash duration close to the 1/500th of a second.
The camera *could* allow faster shutter speeds during fill with close-ups, but that just complicates the program code and offers one more thing to go wrong.
If the camera could actually control the number of microFarads of capacitance being dumped into the flash lamp, or the voltage at which the dump occurs, they could perhaps shorten the flash duration reliably.
>> Still, there should be some way to override this, I don't miind losing flash >>power, it's just fill.
>If you *could* override this shutter speed, you would have only a very >narrow slit on the frame which is open at the time the flash goes off, >so only that area would be exposed (for all-flash) or filled (for fill >flash). This would be true if the mechanical focal plane shutter were doing the timing in the normal way, but I believe this to not be true for the D70.
> The automation in your camera prevents you from doing >something stupid like that...older manual cameras let you screw up! That they did. But the results tended to teach you fairly quickly. IIRC, the Nikon F had a 1/60th of a second maximum shutter speed during electronic flash. There were more conventional (non-electronic) flash lamps designed to have a fairly long and even burning curve, so you could use higher shutter speeds with a focal-plane shutter, and get fairly even illumination across the image. These were "type F" lamps. The more common ones "type M" IIRC, had a shorter and higher peak, so you would get strange illumination variations across the image with higher shutter speeds and the focal plane shutter.
Enjoy, DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Proconsul - 07 Aug 2005 19:51 GMT On 8/7/05 11:35 AM, in article a7KdnZ2dnZ1QfYTMnZ2dnRPJa9-dnZ2dRVn-0J2dnZ0@speakeasy.net, "Paul Furman" wrote:
>> Canon 20D sets a maximum shutter speed of 1/250 when flash is on. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > power, it's just fill. I want f/4 3200 & I want flash but it doesn't > seem to be possible. Your camera has a focal plane shutter - it's mechanical action, i.e., the time it takes for the shutter to operate, limits the time window for flash synchronization.....
1/500 in the D70 is excellent. The 20D's max sync speed is 1/250, which is still plenty fast enough.....most cameras "do" flash at no more than 1/60....
You aren't losing flash power - but if you read thoroughly and understand exactly how the flash system works, the answers become self-evident. If you need fill flash, you'll get beautiful results using shutter priority set to 1/500 rather than aperture priority. There is no need nor is there any benefit from a faster shutter speed when using flash, either full or fill under "normal" lighting circumstances......
For those who wish to use strobe effects, etc., which provide exposures up to millionths of a second, you use the strobe as the sole light source with the camera set to "bulb".....all light is controlled by the strobe both in intensity and duration.....shutter synchronization is irrelevant in such a case......!
PC
Ed Ruf - 07 Aug 2005 19:59 GMT >> Canon 20D sets a maximum shutter speed of 1/250 when flash is on. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >power, it's just fill. I want f/4 3200 & I want flash but it doesn't >seem to be possible. Max flash synch speed on the D70 1/500. Suggest you reread the flash portion of the Fine Manual. ---------- Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com) See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
McLeod - 07 Aug 2005 20:02 GMT >> Canon 20D sets a maximum shutter speed of 1/250 when flash is on. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >power, it's just fill. I want f/4 3200 & I want flash but it doesn't >seem to be possible. You will only get a partial frame exposed with flash if you go higher than 1/500. If the shutter in the D70s travels vertically you will end up with only the top or bottom half lit by the flash. Over 1/500 of a second the whole sensor will never be exposed at the same time, the shutter becomes a moving slit.
Paul Furman - 08 Aug 2005 00:13 GMT >>I can't go faster than 1/500 > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of a second the whole sensor will never be exposed at the same time, > the shutter becomes a moving slit. Thanks all.
I found a page with a diagram to explain: <http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/DigiCam/User-Guide/EXT-FLASH/BASICS/sync-speed.html>
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Matt Clara - 09 Aug 2005 17:40 GMT > >> Canon 20D sets a maximum shutter speed of 1/250 when flash is on. > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > of a second the whole sensor will never be exposed at the same time, > the shutter becomes a moving slit. That's not true, as the D70 is relying on an electronic shutter at 1/500th and faster. I've used the D70 with studio lights, set on manual up to 1/8000th of a second. Some weird artifacting happens at those speeds, though.
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DoN. Nichols - 09 Aug 2005 19:26 GMT [ ... ]
>> You will only get a partial frame exposed with flash if you go higher >> than 1/500. If the shutter in the D70s travels vertically you will [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >1/8000th of a second. Some weird artifacting happens at those speeds, >though. I suspect that you are experiencing "ringing" (periodic variation of the brightness) at those speeds -- especially if you are close to the start of the flashlamp's output (as would be reasonable to expect). Ringing (of voltage) is a common phenomenon in electronics with high-speed pulses, and it would be reasonable to expect it to affect the light output during that period.
It is possible to design the circuitry to minimize ringing, but I doubt that this ever became a matter of importance before now in studio strobe lights, as it all averages out in the film or sensor at normal shutter speeds.
Hmm ... I wonder whether I could use high shutter speeds to reduce the light from the old Medical Nikkor's ring flash. The D70's minimum of 200 ISO (ASA) limits how close I can get with that and get reasonable exposures, but a high manual shutter speed selection might work for me. Better than getting a neutral density filter to go between the lens and the screw-in close-up lenses which accompany it.
Enjoy, DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
JPS@no.komm - 08 Aug 2005 02:42 GMT >> Canon 20D sets a maximum shutter speed of 1/250 when flash is on. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >power, it's just fill. I want f/4 3200 & I want flash but it doesn't >seem to be possible. 1/500s is the shortest shutter time in which the entire sensor is exposed at once. Anything faster, and a slit moves across the sensor, taking much longer than the stated shutter speed, but exposing each pixel for the length of time indicated by the shutter speed. Firing a flash at shutter speeds faster than 1/500 would result in only a fraction of the frame being illuminated by the flash.
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<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< Jeremy Nixon - 08 Aug 2005 03:09 GMT > 1/500s is the shortest shutter time in which the entire sensor is > exposed at once. Anything faster, and a slit moves across the sensor, > taking much longer than the stated shutter speed, but exposing each > pixel for the length of time indicated by the shutter speed. Firing a > flash at shutter speeds faster than 1/500 would result in only a > fraction of the frame being illuminated by the flash. While normally correct, in the specific case of the D70, it doesn't work like that. The D70 uses the mechanical shutter up to 1/125th sec, after which it still opens fully at 1/125th and an electronic shutter is used to obtain the higher shutter speed. The reason for the 1/500th sec limit on flash sync is that the flash needs to happen entirely within the time of exposure. If you use one of the new Nikon flashes for the digital SLRs, you can actually get them to sync up to 1/2000 (at least, I'm not sure), but with some loss of light at higher speeds when the flash duration exceeds the exposure time. You need the special flashes because others may not sync correctly like that.
The D2x has a 1/250th sec flash sync limit rather than the 1/500th of its less expensive cousin because it actually does use a traditional mechanical shutter for all exposures; you can get an electronic shutter with a CCD, but not with a CMOS. So, while the flash sync speed is a stop slower on the D2x, the mechanical shutter is actually capable of one stop faster flash sync.
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Colin D - 08 Aug 2005 01:18 GMT > > Perhaps the problem is that your camera automatically selects a maximum > > shutter speed compatible with flash, and the shutter speed + lens [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > it. With no flash, the white is slightly overexposed, with flash, the > white is badly overexposed. I think you are attempting to use fill flash wrongly here. The purpose of fill flash is to lighten a dark foreground in front of a lighter background, e.g. a person in shade or backlit against a brighter background.
If I read your original post correctly, you had a brighter foreground against a darker or shadowed background, and in your second case you had a flat subject - the floor - partly sunlit. Because of the light fall-off with distance, flash on an already bright foreground is only going to make it even brighter, and won't do anything for the distant shadows; and in the case of the floor, the flash adds to the already too bright sunlit area. Neither of those scenarios are suitable for fill flash.
Colin D.
Proconsul - 08 Aug 2005 01:20 GMT On 8/7/05 5:18 PM, in article 42F6A4DD.3F64F2C5@killspam.127.0.0.1, "Colin D" wrote:
>>> Perhaps the problem is that your camera automatically selects a maximum >>> shutter speed compatible with flash, and the shutter speed + lens [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > bright sunlit area. Neither of those scenarios are suitable for fill > flash. AND, using aperture priority would make any such situation worse automatically - too much light....!
PC
> Colin D. wilt - 08 Aug 2005 02:26 GMT Another use of fill flash has nothing to do with the relative brightness of foreground vs. background...it is used very commonly by pro wedding photographers shooting weddings in bright sunlight. Harsh shadows (in the eye sockets) are filled in so you don't give the bride and groom 'racoon eyes'. --Wilt
Proconsul - 07 Aug 2005 18:08 GMT On 8/7/05 9:56 AM, in article
> Perhaps the problem is that your camera automatically selects a maximum > shutter speed compatible with flash, and the shutter speed + lens > aperture that is selected causes too much ambient light to overexpose > the picture. This is correct - using shutter priority, as I stated in another reply, is the best answer, IMO.....:)
PC
Proconsul - 07 Aug 2005 18:06 GMT On 8/7/05 8:36 AM, in article oLedncCCddrkt2vfRVn-3w@speakeasy.net, "Paul Furman" wrote:
> I generally haven't paid much attention to flash, I don't know what's > going on but recently when I try popping up the flash on my D70 for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > bright sunlit scenes with backlit or dark shadows which need fill. The > sunlit stuff goes pure white. Try shutter priority instead and set shutter speed for 1/500 - works for me......
PC
Matt Clara - 09 Aug 2005 17:48 GMT > I generally haven't paid much attention to flash, I don't know what's > going on but recently when I try popping up the flash on my D70 for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > bright sunlit scenes with backlit or dark shadows which need fill. The > sunlit stuff goes pure white. You've got advice to go to shutter priority, but then you're still telling the camera what to do when it's obvious you're not sure. Not to worry, many of us have a hard time getting our heads around modern electronic flash systems--I know I do. Try setting the camera to Program mode and dial in plus or minus exposure on the flash itself to suit your needs. It won't give you control of aperture, but it will give you beautifully balanced fill flash.
 Signature Regards, Matt Clara www.mattclara.com
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