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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / August 2005

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Why doesn't Olympus release an OM-1d?

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RichA - 07 Aug 2005 05:22 GMT
A purely manual digital camera?  But, not a cheap
plastic thing aimed at people who wouldn't buy it,
a high quality DSLR that avoids many the features
now found on current DSLRs?  A centre-weighted metering
mode, a manual shutter and mirror, pentaprism,
and the only thing drawing power would be the sensor
and circuitry needed such as the buffer, etc?
All the crap (buttons) spattered all over current
DSLRs are a pain, it makes them less than friendly
to use.  If they decided to verge away from 4/3,
they could do a full sized sensor and simply revive
previously existing OM lenses.  Instead of myriad
and questionably useful "functions" the camera could
be geared to render the very best images possible for
those capable of using it manually.
I'm sure the crowd who suddenly after years of using
SLRs decided they needed "histograms" in the display
wouldn't like it, but it might have appeal to some.
I'd limit the exposure modes to "P" and full manual,
no "S" and no "A" modes and NONE of the things found
on P&S's like "nightime" mode, etc.  
You could leave adjustable WB since no one wants to
use filters anymore.

Stacey - 07 Aug 2005 07:25 GMT
> A purely manual digital camera?  

I'd love one but they'd never sell as too many people were weaned on AF full
auto metering 35mm cameras. Just look at how hard a time most of these
people have trying to use a medium format camera and you can see why it
wouldn't sell.

> If they decided to verge away from 4/3,
>they could do a full sized sensor and simply revive
>previously existing OM lenses.

And make a body they have no "new" lenses to sell with it? Yea that would
make sense for them.
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 Stacey

RichA - 07 Aug 2005 22:19 GMT
>> A purely manual digital camera?  
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>And make a body they have no "new" lenses to sell with it? Yea that would
>make sense for them.

None of us know what direction Olympus is going in.  I'm not even sure
what sensor size the current digital lenses are capable of supporting,
beyond the 4/3.  But I remember the thick little Olympus catalog that
used to come with their cameras, listing all those lenses from wide
fisheye up to 1000mm and showing all the neat pictures you could take
with them.  Olympus, when they went on their new path gave up their
ability to trade on their old, highly trusted past reputation and
gear.  It was brave, but from a marketing standpoint, probably not the
best thing they could have done.
-Rich
David Dyer-Bennet - 08 Aug 2005 04:19 GMT
> > A purely manual digital camera?  
>
> I'd love one but they'd never sell as too many people were weaned on
> AF full auto metering 35mm cameras. Just look at how hard a time
> most of these people have trying to use a medium format camera and
> you can see why it wouldn't sell.

I converted to AF when a weekend of rental showed me that it was of
significant value in the photography I did.  I got pictures I never
would have gotten manually.  

People doing sports photography and such benefit even more than I do
from *good* AF.  First-rate AF is *much better* than you can do
manually for many situations.  

For other situations I've got a monorail 4x5.  Sometimes that's the
best choice.
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dylan - 07 Aug 2005 10:26 GMT
>A purely manual digital camera?  But, not a cheap
> plastic thing aimed at people who wouldn't buy it,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> You could leave adjustable WB since no one wants to
> use filters anymore.

And Nikon the FM-D and FE-D, and if Canon made the AE-1D and I could make
use of my FD lenses.
We could do anyway with all these modern AF gimmicks etc and take real
photographs :O)
David Dyer-Bennet - 08 Aug 2005 04:21 GMT
> And Nikon the FM-D and FE-D, and if Canon made the AE-1D and I could make
> use of my FD lenses.
> We could do anyway with all these modern AF gimmicks etc and take real
> photographs :O)

My old Nikon lenses work fine on my Fuji S2, and would work even
better on a D2x (they'd meter).  If AF is the wrong thing, I turn it
off.  If auto exposure is the wrong thing (i.e. most of the time), I
turn it off.  

Why does having choices scare some people so much?
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Deedee Tee - 07 Aug 2005 12:53 GMT
>A purely manual digital camera?  But, not a cheap
>plastic thing aimed at people who wouldn't buy it,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>and the only thing drawing power would be the sensor
>and circuitry needed such as the buffer, etc?
[..]

I believe that, once you put a digital sensor and the minimal required
electronics and mechanical and optical hardware in a camera, virtually
all additional functions can be implemented in firmware without adding
any other hardware except for a few buttons. Cost-wise, there would be
no savings in making a manual DSLR, possibly the contrary.
Consumer-wise, I doubt many would choose a camera that deliberately
left out many automatic functions and did not cost much less.
Tony  Polson - 07 Aug 2005 13:13 GMT
>>A purely manual digital camera?  But, not a cheap
>>plastic thing aimed at people who wouldn't buy it,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Consumer-wise, I doubt many would choose a camera that deliberately
>left out many automatic functions and did not cost much less.

Indeed.  

The way to sell DSLRs by the truckload appears to be by removing most
manual functions, thereby taking away all creative decisions - apart
from composition - from the user.
John McWilliams - 07 Aug 2005 20:40 GMT
Tony Polson wrote:

>>Consumer-wise, I doubt many would choose a camera that deliberately
>>left out many automatic functions and did not cost much less.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> manual functions, thereby taking away all creative decisions - apart
> from composition - from the user.

Who do - or does- that?

Every dSLR I have looked at has a pretty complete slate of both manual
and auto. controls.

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RichA - 07 Aug 2005 22:11 GMT
>>A purely manual digital camera?  But, not a cheap
>>plastic thing aimed at people who wouldn't buy it,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>any other hardware except for a few buttons. Cost-wise, there would be
>no savings in making a manual DSLR, possibly the contrary.

Except for all the extra buttons, switches and wheels needed.

>Consumer-wise, I doubt many would choose a camera that deliberately
>left out many automatic functions and did not cost much less.
Steve Franklin - 07 Aug 2005 13:46 GMT
I really don't get your point here..

Aside from the commercial suicide of it all, why?

I.e With my Nikon D70 I can choose to switch it to manual, average metering
and even manual focus.

All the other buttons become superfluous....what is the problem?

It's like buying a car with airconditioning and you don't like
airconditioning. Don't use it?

It's not as if all these other buttons are causing a drain on the battery...

Please don't tell me you are one of those people that say it isn't 'real
photography' unless you are setting everything completely yourself? Imagine
a sports photographer panning a racing car through dappled light and having
to 'guestimate' the exposure? A perfect use of A/S mode if ever there were
one?

>A purely manual digital camera?
RichA - 07 Aug 2005 22:12 GMT
>I really don't get your point here..
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>All the other buttons become superfluous....what is the problem?

You just said it.

David Dyer-Bennet - 08 Aug 2005 04:23 GMT
> It's like buying a car with airconditioning and you don't like
> airconditioning. Don't use it?

That's one of the three *expensive* options on a car, nearly $1000
usually.  Bad example, I think; if it's expensive enough to notice, I
can see why "don't use it" isn't a satisfactory answer!
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Larry - 08 Aug 2005 12:22 GMT
> That's one of the three *expensive* options on a car, nearly $1000
> usually.  Bad example, I think; if it's expensive enough to notice, I
> can see why "don't use it" isn't a satisfactory answer!

Air conditioning is not as bad an example as it might seem.

When a co-worker of mine went car shopping, he found just the car he wanted,
and it was "On Sale" at a reduced price!

The catch was -- he didn't want air conditioning.. (I wonr even speculate
why.. I wouldnt buy a car without it)

Because the model he wanted isnt produced (usually) without "air" he would
have to pay a $1500 premium to get one without "air".

Its not a great analogy, but it works.. if you could get Canon/Nikon/Oly et
al to build a customized camera model (lets say the Canon D20) without Av /
Tv/ P/ and Auto modes it certainly wouldnt cost LESS to buy it.

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Larry Lynch
Mystic, Ct.

Alan Browne - 07 Aug 2005 17:29 GMT
> A purely manual digital camera?  But, not a cheap
> plastic thing aimed at people who wouldn't buy it,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> be geared to render the very best images possible for
> those capable of using it manually.

The paradigm has been set since the early to mid 90's in film cameras to
have a lot of functionality, regardless of their utility to most
photographers.

My Maxxum 7D is very close to my Maxxum 9 in controls (and almost
identical to the Maxxum 7).  The only "added" controls are those that
control the "film".

The Maxxum 9 and 7 (and 7D) are photographer oriented with all
photographic controls on dedicted buttons/dial/switches, etc.  This
appears daunting at first, but as you realize that it saves a lot of
time by not having to menu dive, then it becomes very workable.  I had
shot hundreds of photos with the Maxxum 7D before I even opened the
manual... simply put it was just a minor variation on the Maxxum 9.

I operate my cameras in "M" mode most of the time.  (I used to be more
"A" or "S" oriented).

It would be great if Oly did do a OM-1d as you suggest, but with the
industry trend set, Oly's 4/3 strategy and Oly's weak profits, it is not
likely to occur.

Cheers,
Alan.

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Brian Baird - 07 Aug 2005 21:52 GMT
> I operate my cameras in "M" mode most of the time.  (I used to be more
> "A" or "S" oriented).

I gotten to be the same way.  I'll still use Av if I'm in varying
lighting conditions, but otherwise I'm setting things manually.
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wilt - 07 Aug 2005 18:11 GMT
  You are effectively proposing a digital OM-1d, but I think something
like an OM-3d with spotmetering (one of Olympus' feature strengths)
would be better.
  Problem is that the buying public so much went for the OM-4
automation and electronic shutter that the manual, mechanical shuttered
OM-3 fell into an also-ran status in terms of sales volume.  I myself
fell into that, and so I still own an OM-1n as well as an OM-4 for my
35mm film system.
  I entirely support the concept you propose, so that my lens
investment (with some somewhat exotic and with some fairly fast glass)
would be more actively used once again.  What I have for my 20D is not
nearly fast enough maximum apertures to equal my OM system, and I have
an OM perspective control lens I would dearly love to use with a
digital camera.

  First problem is that Olympus withdrew from the 'pro' market, and
the OM system was very much aimed toward that market...you cannot say
otherwise with its formidable array of lenses including PC and
macrophoto.  Another (more significant) problem is with that the
Olympus 4/3 digital Olympus touts the benefits of their wide angle
lenses designed for the properties of the electronic sensor, which
makes wide angle film lenses 'less suitable.  So your proposal poses a
problem for Olympus, in that they still would need to design a new
series of wide angle lenses for your 'OM-1d' so as to not invalidate
the claims for why their 4/3 camera and lenses 'are better'.

--Wilt
Tony  Polson - 07 Aug 2005 22:46 GMT
>   I entirely support the concept you propose, so that my lens
>investment (with some somewhat exotic and with some fairly fast glass)
>would be more actively used once again.  What I have for my 20D is not
>nearly fast enough maximum apertures to equal my OM system, and I have
>an OM perspective control lens I would dearly love to use with a
>digital camera.

Don't hold your breath.  

The chance of Olympus doing this is precisely zero.
Darrell - 08 Aug 2005 01:31 GMT
>>   I entirely support the concept you propose, so that my lens
>>investment (with some somewhat exotic and with some fairly fast glass)
>>would be more actively used once again.  What I have for my 20D is not
>>nearly fast enough maximum apertures to equal my OM system, and I have
>>an OM perspective control lens I would dearly love to use with a
>>digital camera.

So buy a E300 or E1 and get the Olympus MA-1 adapter, seems easy enough. The
downside is the FOV with the 4:3 system is the lens will be doubled.
Tony  Polson - 08 Aug 2005 11:42 GMT
>>>   I entirely support the concept you propose, so that my lens
>>>investment (with some somewhat exotic and with some fairly fast glass)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>So buy a E300 or E1 and get the Olympus MA-1 adapter, seems easy enough. The
>downside is the FOV with the 4:3 system is the lens will be doubled.

The Olympus OM shift lenses are virtually useless on the Four Thirds
cameras - even the 24mm shift has an equivalent focal length of 48mm
on an E Series body, and a 48mm shift lens is of very limited value.
Jeremy Nixon - 07 Aug 2005 21:12 GMT
> Instead of myriad and questionably useful "functions"
> the camera could be geared to render the very best images
> possible for those capable of using it manually.

But where's the tradeoff?  What do I get in return for
giving up the various features?  If I were going to use
a camera like that, it would be a Leica rangefinder or
something, where I'd actually get something in return.

> I'd limit the exposure modes to "P" and full manual,
> no "S" and no "A" modes

The only exposure modes I ever use are A and M, so you
just lost me right there.  No interest in a "P" mode,
but want "A".

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RichA - 07 Aug 2005 22:14 GMT
>> Instead of myriad and questionably useful "functions"
>> the camera could be geared to render the very best images
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>just lost me right there.  No interest in a "P" mode,
>but want "A".

It was a sop to speed, offering the "P" mode.  Personally,
I never leave M, there are just too many situations where
manual control is needed.
-Rich
Steve Franklin - 07 Aug 2005 23:50 GMT
Personally,
> I never leave M, there are just too many situations where
> manual control is needed.
> -Rich

Like where exactly? I really do not get this old boys manual thing. With AE
lock on A tell what you can't do that you can do in manual?

For certain types of photography...you get that chance to do all that. But A
mode gives you just as much control. I.e For the majority of photographs,
the shutter speed is only important to the extent that you need to have it
high enough to avoid blur. The aperture has far more impact on the
photographs...

I still don't get what your problem is?

Most Dslrs give you full manual control. You don't need to worry about the
other 'technology' because you don't use it. However it will be helpful in
selling the gear on to other (non luddite) photographers when you are
finished bitching about bayer filters and lens resolution tests
wilt - 08 Aug 2005 02:34 GMT
As pointed out my many, just use one of today's automagic cameras in M
mode, and you have it.  On the other hand, a key point missed by almost
everyone is this...

"If they decided to verge away from 4/3, they could do a full sized
sensor and simply revive previously existing OM lenses."

 I know 'fat chance' is the probability, since it means that OM users
won't buy scads of lenses and Olympus benefits primarily from the sale
of digital bodies. But for OM owners like me, the idea of a Olympus
digital that takes all the OM lenses is a very desirable thing
nevertheless.  Heck, I'd even be a lot happier with an adapter to mount
my OM stuff on my 20D, even if my perspective control lens would not be
wide enough in field of view on the 20D.

--Wilt
wilt - 13 Aug 2005 17:12 GMT
And now I can report that I have indeed found and purchased an adapter
to use my OM lenses on my 20D!

Now I can use my 24mm PC lens and use it for architectural shots
(albeit not as wide in the crop format).  And I have quite a few fast
lenses that can be used on my 20D without reinvesting in fast Canon
glass.  Since the 24 PC is a preset lens, it works no differently on my
20D than on my OM-4!  And since I would shoot with a 50mm f/1.4 or
135mm f/2.8 at or near wide open for available light situations, I am
not bothered by lack of auto diaphram.  And since I have been using the
technique of prefocus for shooting at events, I am not bothered by the
loss of autofocus.  

--Wilt
 
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