Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / August 2005
Spot the 18-55mm Canon 'kit' lens ?
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dylan - 06 Aug 2005 14:57 GMT I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L series), all set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. Full Res jpegs, hope you have broadband.
Can you identify the 18-55mm 'kit lens' ?
http://www.knighttrain.freeserve.co.uk/lenses.htm
This is not a scientific test.
Robert R Kircher, Jr. - 06 Aug 2005 15:21 GMT > I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L series), > all set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This is not a scientific test. Ok I'll play along.
I'd say the middle shot. At least that how my shots with the 18-55 look... Soft.
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Rob
David Littlewood - 06 Aug 2005 15:48 GMT >I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L series), all >set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >This is not a scientific test. Well, I'll stick my neck out. I have to say that on screen the differences did not seem that great in the central area.
To me, picture 3 appears to be the sharpest, both in centre and at the edges. The writing on the TV connector sockets, in particular, is way better than on 2 (it is cropped off on 1, but from the cloth it would likely be worse).
Pictures 1 and 2 are harder to call. This may in part be because you have (I suspect) set the lens for 1 at a slightly longer focal length, and thus have slightly less DoF (it has a little more bird but a lot less TV). Thus picture 2 seems to me better at the edge (closer subject) - but it seems slightly, very slightly, less sharp than picture 1.
Thus I would go for 2 as being the poorest lens.
Whether that is the 18-55, I don't know. While it has been slated by many here, plenty of people of good credentials have praised it. For example, David Kilpatrick (editor of UK magazine Freelance + Digital, and himself an accomplished professional) says in the June/July issue of that magazine: "We have a Canon 300D which has a new cheap 18-55mm digital lens - great little performer."
To be honest, even if a lens was a little below the standard I would normally choose to use, I would expect it to be hard to tell by f/8. It may be more informative if you were to use f/4.5, or whatever is the widest all 3 can achieve. Use manual focus, take great care to focus on the same point in all 3 - and take more care to get the focal lengths exactly equal!
Nice to see someone actually trying an experiment rather than just shooting his mouth off, though - thanks for that.
David
PS - I just realised my daughter has one of these controversial lenses - came on the 350 I bought her a couple of years ago. I have never thought to give it a try myself. Going on holiday tomorrow though, so it will have to wait.
 Signature David Littlewood
G.T. - 06 Aug 2005 20:36 GMT > PS - I just realised my daughter has one of these controversial lenses - > came on the 350 I bought her a couple of years ago. Years ago? I don't think so.
Greg
David Littlewood - 07 Aug 2005 00:03 GMT >> PS - I just realised my daughter has one of these controversial lenses - >> came on the 350 I bought her a couple of years ago. > >Years ago? I don't think so. > >Greg Sorry, brain out of gear again, meant to type "300D"!
David
 Signature David Littlewood
dylan - 07 Aug 2005 11:12 GMT > To be honest, even if a lens was a little below the standard I would > normally choose to use, I would expect it to be hard to tell by f/8. It [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > David Uploaded 2 photos taken at f4.5 on the 20-35 and the 18-55 both at 20mm.
www.knighttrain.freeserve.co.uk/lenses.htm
Cheers
RichA - 07 Aug 2005 22:33 GMT >> To be honest, even if a lens was a little below the standard I would >> normally choose to use, I would expect it to be hard to tell by f/8. It [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Cheers Nice shots, the reds are well-saturated. Did you have to underexpose overall to preserve the details on the white painted wall? -Rich
dylan - 07 Aug 2005 22:56 GMT > Nice shots, the reds are well-saturated. Did you have to underexpose > overall to preserve the details on the white painted wall? > -Rich No both taken with Av set to f4.5 rest all auto.
RichA - 08 Aug 2005 02:14 GMT >> Nice shots, the reds are well-saturated. Did you have to underexpose >> overall to preserve the details on the white painted wall? >> -Rich > >No both taken with Av set to f4.5 rest all auto. More evidence the Rebel XT sensor is the pearl before the "swine" of bad Canon lenses. -Rich
dylan - 11 Aug 2005 19:08 GMT > More evidence the Rebel XT sensor is the pearl > before the "swine" of bad Canon lenses. > -Rich Your view not mine.
jean - 06 Aug 2005 18:06 GMT #3 looks like the sharpest #1 is second sharpest #2 is the least sharp
I know which is which, the EXIF says it all but my answers were not done according to what I knew, but according to what my eyes told me.
I will have to duplicate this test, I have many lenses which can all be set at the same focal lenght.
Jean
> I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L series), all > set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This is not a scientific test. David Littlewood - 06 Aug 2005 18:59 GMT >#3 looks like the sharpest >#1 is second sharpest >#2 is the least sharp > >I know which is which, the EXIF says it all but my answers were not done >according to what I knew, but according to what my eyes told me. How did you see the EXIF data? I couldn't see it on the page.
David
 Signature David Littlewood
Toa - 06 Aug 2005 22:29 GMT > How did you see the EXIF data? I couldn't see it on the page. > David Download the image maybe?
Toa
David Littlewood - 07 Aug 2005 00:06 GMT In article <42f52d2e@news.orcon.net.nz>, Toa <toa1614@gmail.com> writes
>> How did you see the EXIF data? I couldn't see it on the page. >> David > >Download the image maybe? > >Toa Doh! Now I see the answer, thanks. Still doesn't change anything I said though.
David
 Signature David Littlewood
Dean S. Lautermilch - 06 Aug 2005 18:29 GMT > I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L series), > all set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This is not a scientific test. You have a lot of dust bunnies showing for F8.
Frank ess - 06 Aug 2005 18:30 GMT > I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L > series), all set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This is not a scientific test. I vote middle for the 'kit'; image quality/sharpness at normal viewing or Web sizes, probably not much to choose among them, but in this presentation my eye likes #3, #1, #2, in that order.
 Signature Frank ess
RichA - 07 Aug 2005 04:48 GMT >> I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L >> series), all set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >or Web sizes, probably not much to choose among them, but in this >presentation my eye likes #3, #1, #2, in that order. Same thing. Less CA in number 3 also. -Rich
Brian Baird - 06 Aug 2005 18:56 GMT > I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L series), all > set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This is not a scientific test. I can spot where you took down some pictures. Nail holes!
I'm not going to guess on which one is which. 1 and 3 seem good, with 3 being the best.
2 doesn't seems to have its focus behind the objects on the desk, because the picture frame is in better focus than the foreground objects.
 Signature http://www.pbase.com/bcbaird
Pixby - 06 Aug 2005 23:46 GMT > I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L series), all > set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This is not a scientific test. One of the psychological advantages to viewing this sort of test is knowing the photographer is so engrossed in their willingness to demonstrate a point, they forget to sweep the path behind them and almost always make the first image, the one with conjecture. It helps too to have the EXIF data intact!
All of those shots have substantial chromatic aberration and none were shot at the same exposure value. Which means they are not APO lenses and like the OP said, not a scientific test. Because all the lenses are mediocre quality, it is impossible to visually tell the difference although the first image is the one from the kit lens.
Make = Canon Model = Canon EOS 350D DIGITAL Orientation = Normal XResolution = 72.00 YResolution = 72.00 Resolution Unit = Inch Date Time = 2005:08:06 14:06:44 YCb Cr Positioning = Co-sited Exif Offset = 196 Exposure Time = 1/6 sec FNumber = F8.0 Exposure Program = Aperture priority ISOSpeed Ratings = 100 Exif Version = "0221" Date Time Original = 2005:08:06 14:06:44 Date Time Digitized = 2005:08:06 14:06:44 Components Configuration = YCbCr Shutter Speed Value = 0.1667 sec (1/6) Aperture Value = F6.0 Exposure Bias Value = 0/2 Metering Mode = MultiSegment Flash = Off, surpressed Focal Length = 27.00 mm Maker Note = "." User Comment = Flash Pix Version = "0100" Color Space = sRGB Exif Image Width = 3456 Exif Image Length = 2304 Interoperability Offset = 9230 Interoperability Index = R98 Interoperability Version = "0100" Focal Plane XResolution = 3456000/874 Focal Plane YResolution = 2304000/582 Focal Plane Resolution Unit = Inch Custom Rendered = Normal process Exposure Mode = Auto White Balance = Auto Scene Capture Type = Standard Focal Lengthin35mm Film = 43.80
--- Maker Specific Data --- ExposureInfo1 = 92, 2, 100, 3, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 1, 1, 32767, 3, 2, 0, 3, 65535, 65535, 55, 18, 1, 65535, 65535, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 65535, 65535, 0, 0, 0, 0, 65535, 0, 32767, 0, 32767, 65535, 65535 Macro mode = Normal Self Timer = 2 Compression Rate = Basic Flash Mode = Not fired Drive Mode = Single Focus Mode = One-Shot Image Size = Large Easy Shoot = Manual Contrast = High Saturation = High Sharpness = High CCD ISO = Metering Mode = Evaluative AF Point = Exposure Mode = Av-priority Long focal = 55 Short focal = 18 Focal Units = 1 Flash Details = 0 Focus Mode = Single ExposureInfo2 = 68, 0, 160, 120, 192, 83, 0, 0, 3, 0, 8, 8, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 192, 248, 119, 0, 0, 252, 0, 65535, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 White balance = Auto Sequence Number = 3 OpticalZoom Step = 8 AF point = 0 Flash bias = 0 EV Distance = 1 ImageType = "Canon EOS 350D DIGITAL" FirmwareVersion = "Firmware 1.0.2" OwnerName = "unknown" CameraSerialNumber = 730524401 CustomFunctions = 20, 0, 256, 512, 768, 1024, 1280, 1536, 1792, 2048 Noise Reduction = Off Shutter AE Lock Button = AF/AE lock Mirror Lockup = Disable Exposure Level = 1/2 stop AF Assist = On (auto) AV Shutter Speed = Automatic AEB Sequence = 0
File: IMG_0095.JPG Exposure Time: 1/4 sec F-Stop: F8.0 ISO: 100 Lens: 24.00 mm Date: 2005:08:06 14:07:26
File: IMG_0096.JPG Exposure Time: 3/10 sec F-Stop: F8.0 ISO: 100 Lens: 24.00 mm Date: 2005:08:06 14:08:05
 Signature Douglas, You never really make it on the 'net until you get your own personal Troll. Mine's called Chrlz. Don't feed him, he bites!
Longfellow - 07 Aug 2005 00:10 GMT > I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L series), all > set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This is not a scientific test. Looked at EXIF info. Is the lens for #2 also a kit lens? Wonder what that says about standard vs wide angle zooms? Also interesting to note that the shutter speed was 1/8th for the 18-55 and 1/4th for the other two: wonder why. Apertures were 8.0 for all...
Thanks,
Longfellow
Steve Franklin - 07 Aug 2005 03:52 GMT Nice one Dylan...
I cropped a small section from each image and spread them three across in photoshop and agree with the comments of everyone else as the the sharpness.
Whilst I know the point of this is a direct comparison, I did what I believe is a more real world test on it.
I printed a full horizontal crop of the same portion of each image and printed the three strips onto a A4 sheet of paper and then viewed the image at the recommended 2.5 times the diagonal.
And you know what? At that distance, the normal viewing distance, to me it's imperceptable. A very high quality image by all accounts, created on a very good consumer camera with what I regard high quality lenses. (and I'm currently using a Nikon D70)
At the end of the day, I guess it depends on where your photographs end up.
It's indicative of the kind of quality we expect and demand of a consumer camera/lens these days. We seemed obsessed in splitting finer and finer hairs and losing sight of the fact that although one lens will always be sharper than another at certain focal lengths, pretty much all lenses capture images with a sufficiently good sharpness for the end purpose. And for most consumers, that's the ink jet printer or at best a consumer lab.
If you're needs are more critical, if that extra degree of sharpness is critical to you earning your money, then it's likely you'll use a tool fit for purpose. Maybe that means using a medium/large format camera or a more expensive lens range.
I urge everyone to print the image as I have, and at the appropriate distance judge for yourself if you would consider any of those photographs as 'unacceptably soft'
> I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L series), > all set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This is not a scientific test. dylan - 07 Aug 2005 09:24 GMT > I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L series), > all set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > This is not a scientific test. Obviously those of you whoread the EXIF know the answer but is was :
1. 18-55 'kit' lens 2. 24-85 3.5-4.5 3. 20-35 3.5-4.5
jean - 07 Aug 2005 11:50 GMT > > I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L series), > > all set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > 2. 24-85 3.5-4.5 > 3. 20-35 3.5-4.5 Still interesting that the more expensive (than the kit lens) 24-85 came last.
Jean
dylan - 07 Aug 2005 12:16 GMT > Still interesting that the more expensive (than the kit lens) 24-85 came > last. > > Jean It seems to have a problem with focus, it's the same on my 10D, also it is at it's extreme at 24mm. I'll try it at various focal lengths, I'm sure it's a lot better at longer lengths.
jean - 07 Aug 2005 14:47 GMT > > Still interesting that the more expensive (than the kit lens) 24-85 came > > last. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > at it's extreme at 24mm. I'll try it at various focal lengths, I'm sure it's > a lot better at longer lengths. Probably, I will do a test like yours soon (my daughter is off with her 24-85) and set all the lenses at 50mm to compare with my 50mm f1,8 fixed focus lens. I will have to find out how to remove the EXIF to foil the cheaters ;-)
Jean
Brian Baird - 07 Aug 2005 21:50 GMT > It seems to have a problem with focus, it's the same on my 10D, also it is > at it's extreme at 24mm. I'll try it at various focal lengths, I'm sure it's > a lot better at longer lengths. MY 24-85's AF quit so I gave it away with my old film body. I never got very sharp pictures from it, so I'm not surprised by the test at all.
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G.T. - 07 Aug 2005 18:32 GMT > > I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L series), > > all set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > 2. 24-85 3.5-4.5 > 3. 20-35 3.5-4.5 What EXIF reader are you guys using? I only have Elements 2.0 on this laptop and it doesn't show the lens info (AFAIK).
Greg
McLeod - 07 Aug 2005 19:53 GMT If the lens test was done fairly, that is focused correctly and on a tripod with a cable release, I'd be throwing out lens #2 no matter what it was.
dylan - 07 Aug 2005 20:24 GMT > If the lens test was done fairly, that is focused correctly and on a > tripod with a cable release, I'd be throwing out lens #2 no matter > what it was. It was on a tripod, self timer (no cable release), on auto focus. I would say the focus didn't work properly and the lens it's much good at 24mm, It's a lot better at longer focal lengths.
Longfellow - 08 Aug 2005 03:09 GMT > What EXIF reader are you guys using? I only have Elements 2.0 on this > laptop and it doesn't show the lens info (AFAIK). > > Greg Google for choices. I grabbed EXIFutils-2.6.
Longfellow
jean - 08 Aug 2005 05:21 GMT I use Irfanview to look at the pictures, just type "e" to get the EXIF data if it's there. "i" will bring the info for the picture and it has 2 buttons one of which brings up the EXIF data.
Jean
> > > I've taken 3 photos with 3 different Canon Zoom lens (non are L series), > > > all set at 24mm f8 on a 350D. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Greg SMS - 11 Aug 2005 20:35 GMT > Obviously those of you whoread the EXIF know the answer but is was : > > 1. 18-55 'kit' lens > 2. 24-85 3.5-4.5 > 3. 20-35 3.5-4.5 Kind of surprising, though by all accounts the 18-55 kit lens has fairly good optics, so not totally unexpected. Some people look at the price and cheap construction of a lens and conclude that it simply must be horrible, but the 18-55 kit lens can certainly hold its own, and for many people it's worth the $70 adder from the body-only price.
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