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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / August 2005

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Full-frame or 1.5 DSLR?

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RichA - 02 Aug 2005 17:19 GMT
A full frame DSLR with a telephoto
or a 1.5-1.6 frame with a telephoto?
The reason I ask is that most people seem to
crop and it doesn't take much cropping (about
15% inward from each side) to
whittle down the full frame image below the
pixel count of an 8meg 1.5 frame camera, plus in
order to match the f.l. so this doesn't happen,
you need a longer, heavier lens.
Given a choice and your experiences, which makes
more sense to own?
-Rich
G.T. - 02 Aug 2005 17:38 GMT
> A full frame DSLR with a telephoto
> or a 1.5-1.6 frame with a telephoto?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Given a choice and your experiences, which makes
> more sense to own?

Simple.  The camera with the features you need and that suits your budget.

Greg
Pete D - 02 Aug 2005 21:14 GMT
>A full frame DSLR with a telephoto
> or a 1.5-1.6 frame with a telephoto?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> more sense to own?
> -Rich

Yes Rich we would all like full frame D-SLR's but they are just too
expensive.
RichA - 03 Aug 2005 05:38 GMT
>>A full frame DSLR with a telephoto
>> or a 1.5-1.6 frame with a telephoto?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Yes Rich we would all like full frame D-SLR's but they are just too
>expensive.

But if you were shooting telephoto, wouldn't you rather carry
around a 10lb 400mm lens with 1.5 than a 17lb 600mm lens with a full
frame? I think that if Canon did what Nikon did, have a selectable,
internal reduction in the pixel area used to facilitate faster
sequential shooting and longer telephoto reach, they'd have the
perfect camera.
-Rich
Stacey - 03 Aug 2005 07:47 GMT
>>Yes Rich we would all like full frame D-SLR's but they are just too
>>expensive.
>
> But if you were shooting telephoto, wouldn't you rather carry
> around a 10lb 400mm lens with 1.5 than a 17lb 600mm lens with a full
> frame?

No way! I want the LARGEST lens I can have on the camera, looks more "Pro"
even if the image quality is the same!

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 Stacey

Pete D - 03 Aug 2005 08:22 GMT
>>>Yes Rich we would all like full frame D-SLR's but they are just too
>>>expensive.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> No way! I want the LARGEST lens I can have on the camera, looks more "Pro"
> even if the image quality is the same!

Why would you want that? I want to shoot wide anyway.
Steve Wolfe - 03 Aug 2005 08:51 GMT
>> But if you were shooting telephoto, wouldn't you rather carry
>> around a 10lb 400mm lens with 1.5 than a 17lb 600mm lens with a full
>> frame?
>
> No way! I want the LARGEST lens I can have on the camera, looks more "Pro"
> even if the image quality is the same!

 Don't forget the largest body possible, because you don't want to look
like an amateur...

: )

(yes, that was sarcasm.)

steve
JPS@no.komm - 03 Aug 2005 23:03 GMT
>>>Yes Rich we would all like full frame D-SLR's but they are just too
>>>expensive.

>> But if you were shooting telephoto, wouldn't you rather carry
>> around a 10lb 400mm lens with 1.5 than a 17lb 600mm lens with a full
>> frame?

>No way! I want the LARGEST lens I can have on the camera, looks more "Pro"
>even if the image quality is the same!

That's good, because the Olympus lenses look bigger than I'd expect from
a 4/3 camera.  I saw a guy with an E-1 and a 300mm lens at "the Gates"
in Central Park in February, and I did a double-take when I realized
that the large lens was an Olympus 4/3 lens.
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RichA - 04 Aug 2005 00:07 GMT
>>>>Yes Rich we would all like full frame D-SLR's but they are just too
>>>>expensive.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>in Central Park in February, and I did a double-take when I realized
>that the large lens was an Olympus 4/3 lens.

I wonder why it's as large as it is?
-Rich
Stacey - 04 Aug 2005 06:22 GMT
>>No way! I want the LARGEST lens I can have on the camera, looks more "Pro"
>>even if the image quality is the same!
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> in Central Park in February, and I did a double-take when I realized
> that the large lens was an Olympus 4/3 lens.

Yea it's a LOT larger than the Canon 400mm F2.8.

Or does FOV not apply when comparing a canon to an OM and but it does
comparing a FF canon to a APS-c one?

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 Stacey

Brian Baird - 04 Aug 2005 07:05 GMT
>  Or does FOV not apply when comparing a canon to an OM and but it does
> comparing a FF canon to a APS-c one?

A 300mm lens is a 300mm lens.  The FOV is a retarded point of
comparison.

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Stacey - 05 Aug 2005 08:00 GMT
>>  Or does FOV not apply when comparing a canon to an OM and but it does
>> comparing a FF canon to a APS-c one?
>
> A 300mm lens is a 300mm lens.  The FOV is a retarded point of
> comparison.

So a 300mm lens on a 1Ds works just like it does on a 20D? And I guess a
28mm lens provides the same usefulness on the 1Ds as it does on the 20D as
well.. Glad you don't think FOV is important, seems most people do.
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 Stacey

Brian Baird - 05 Aug 2005 10:27 GMT
> > A 300mm lens is a 300mm lens.  The FOV is a retarded point of
> > comparison.

> So a 300mm lens on a 1Ds works just like it does on a 20D? And I guess a

Yes, the LENS works the same.

> 28mm lens provides the same usefulness on the 1Ds as it does on the 20D as
> well.. Glad you don't think FOV is important, seems most people do.

No, as usual, you misunderstand the point.  When it comes to the
size/shape/weight of a lens, one 300mm shouldn't weigh more/be larger
than another 300mm, all things being equal.
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Stacey - 06 Aug 2005 06:38 GMT
> When it comes to the
> size/shape/weight of a lens, one 300mm shouldn't weigh more/be larger
> than another 300mm, all things being equal.

Why not when they aren't the same design? If they don't use the same optical
or mechanical  design, they aren't "equal" are they?

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 Stacey

Stacey - 06 Aug 2005 06:42 GMT
>one 300mm shouldn't weigh more/be larger
> than another 300mm, all things being equal.

Wonder why the canon lens is heavier than either the minolta or the nikon?
"All things being equal" of course...

Signature


 Stacey

Pixby - 06 Aug 2005 08:16 GMT
>>one 300mm shouldn't weigh more/be larger
>>than another 300mm, all things being equal.
>
> Wonder why the canon lens is heavier than either the minolta or the nikon?
> "All things being equal" of course...

Well Canon lenses are heavier than Minolta because Minolta lenses don't
have a focus motor in them... Nikon lens technology is way ahead of
everyone else and they get better image quality from thinner elements.
Pretty simple really.

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Brian Baird - 06 Aug 2005 18:28 GMT
> Nikon lens technology is way ahead of
> everyone else and they get better image quality from thinner elements.

I don't think this is the case.  Nikon makes some fine glass, but they
certainly aren't "way ahead" of anyone.

Even Canon, who I would say has a decent lead in the telephoto
department isn't "way ahead" of anyone.  They have a good lens selection
and a lot of image stabilized optics.  But that's certainly changing as
Nikon, Sigma and others try to horn in with their own image
stabilization.

Can't you even find middle ground, Doug?  You're a bipolar gear head and
it sickens me.
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Stacey - 07 Aug 2005 07:43 GMT
> Can't you even find middle ground, Doug?

Like you have?
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 Stacey

MarkH - 07 Aug 2005 00:53 GMT
>>one 300mm shouldn't weigh more/be larger
>> than another 300mm, all things being equal.
>
> Wonder why the canon lens is heavier than either the minolta or the
> nikon? "All things being equal" of course...

Are the Canon, Nikon and Minolta lenses the same?  Do they all have image
stabilisation built into the lens?

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Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 25-June-05)
"There are 10 types of people, those that
understand binary and those that don't"

Alan Browne - 07 Aug 2005 02:56 GMT
> Are the Canon, Nikon and Minolta lenses the same?  Do they all have
> image stabilisation built into the lens?

Minolta (DSLR's) do it in the body.  For each IS/VR (Canon/Nikon) lens,
there is a lens from the same vendor w/o IS/VR.   (hope that's clear).

Cheers,
Alan

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Skip M - 07 Aug 2005 04:53 GMT
>> Are the Canon, Nikon and Minolta lenses the same?  Do they all have
>> image stabilisation built into the lens?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Cheers,
> Alan

That's not strictly true, there is no non IS version of the 28-135 (35-135
predecessor) or 100-400L (100-300 f5.6L).  And the non IS versions of the
300, 400, 500 and 600 are no longer produced.

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Darrell - 07 Aug 2005 15:01 GMT
>>>one 300mm shouldn't weigh more/be larger
>>> than another 300mm, all things being equal.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Are the Canon, Nikon and Minolta lenses the same?  Do they all have image
> stabilisation built into the lens?

Few lenses have Image Stabilization built in. There are a handful of ones
that do. It will be interesting to see how the 5D sells...\
Tony  Polson - 07 Aug 2005 16:51 GMT
>Few lenses have Image Stabilization built in. There are a handful of ones
>that do. It will be interesting to see how the 5D sells...\

Let's hope, for Konica Minolta's sake, that it sells better than the
7D.  My friendly dealer has had a 7D on display since launch, and it
hasn't sold yet, despite a price ticket that is now 60% less than the
launch price - and much less than the dealer bought it for.  

Apparently, in the same period he has sold dozens of Canon EOS 300D,
350D, 20Ds, Nikon D70, Pentax *ist D(S), Olympus E-1 and E-300 bodies
to owners of Minolta film SLRs.  This is despite the dealer being an
authorised (Konica) Minolta dealer for the last thirty years.
Skip M - 07 Aug 2005 02:31 GMT
>>one 300mm shouldn't weigh more/be larger
>> than another 300mm, all things being equal.
>
> Wonder why the canon lens is heavier than either the minolta or the nikon?
> "All things being equal" of course...

I don't know, could it be a combination of internal focus motor and image
stabilization, which both of the lenses you mention lack?

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Skip M - 05 Aug 2005 22:00 GMT
>>>  Or does FOV not apply when comparing a canon to an OM and but it does
>>> comparing a FF canon to a APS-c one?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> 28mm lens provides the same usefulness on the 1Ds as it does on the 20D as
> well.. Glad you don't think FOV is important, seems most people do.

You shoot medium format, don't you?  Do you go around mentally thinking that
an 80mm on a 6x7 has the same FOV as a 50mm on 35mm?  Or do you just make
the mental adjustment of what the image is going to look like, based on the
format and the focal length?

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Stacey - 06 Aug 2005 06:18 GMT
>>>>  Or does FOV not apply when comparing a canon to an OM and but it does
>>>> comparing a FF canon to a APS-c one?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> the mental adjustment of what the image is going to look like, based on
> the format and the focal length?

I think about what the FOV is on the chosen format when buying optics, I
could care less what the actual mm in focal length that FOV happens to be.
Like I'm going to get upset that a 45mm lens on 6X6 isn't the same FOV as
it would be on 35mm or 4/3? And then try to compare prices based on the mm
of focal length used on different formats? That IMHO is what's retarded to
ONLY look at mm of focal length and ignore what format they are being used
on!
Signature


 Stacey

JPS@no.komm - 05 Aug 2005 22:34 GMT
>So a 300mm lens on a 1Ds works just like it does on a 20D? And I guess a
>28mm lens provides the same usefulness on the 1Ds as it does on the 20D as
>well.. Glad you don't think FOV is important, seems most people do.

You are a simpleton.  He didn't say "FOV isn't important".

FOV is not *RELEVANT* to the issue of lens size, for a given focal
length, max aperture, and usable area of focal plane.

You have the same logical prowess and the same sense of responsibility
in paraphrasing others that George Preddy has.
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DoN. Nichols - 05 Aug 2005 23:26 GMT
>>So a 300mm lens on a 1Ds works just like it does on a 20D? And I guess a
>>28mm lens provides the same usefulness on the 1Ds as it does on the 20D as
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>FOV is not *RELEVANT* to the issue of lens size, for a given focal
>length, max aperture, and usable area of focal plane.

    Hmm ... what is the difference between FOV and your last
parameter "usable area of focal plane"?

    Granted, a lens can have a larger "usable area" than a given
camera actually takes advantage of -- as for example a lens designed for
a full-frame 35mm mounted on a DSLR body with a 1.5 or 1.6 crop factor.

    But -- there are also lenses made explicitly for the crop factor
of a DSLR which will not adequately cover a full frame 35mm.  They will
have the same focal length range, and same maximum aperture, but they
will be noticeably lighter.  (This is more often a consideration with
wide angle lenses than with telephotos, but I could imagine some long
lenses made somewhat lighter by restricting the coverage to a DSLR crop
factor.

>You have the same logical prowess and the same sense of responsibility
>in paraphrasing others that George Preddy has.

    And it would seem that you are not properly considering what
your own words say.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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JPS@no.komm - 06 Aug 2005 00:54 GMT
>>>So a 300mm lens on a 1Ds works just like it does on a 20D? And I guess a
>>>28mm lens provides the same usefulness on the 1Ds as it does on the 20D as
>>>well.. Glad you don't think FOV is important, seems most people do.

>>You are a simpleton.  He didn't say "FOV isn't important".

>>FOV is not *RELEVANT* to the issue of lens size, for a given focal
>>length, max aperture, and usable area of focal plane.

>    Hmm ... what is the difference between FOV and your last
>parameter "usable area of focal plane"?

The difference is that Stacey was substituting one lens fl for another,
because of equivalent FOV; and the context was the same fl engineered
for different crops.

The idea was that compromises could be made in lens design when the
focal area was smaller.  This would mean simpler construction, optimized
for a smaller area, and we've been promised smaller lenses with the same
or better performance, optimized for the smaller area.

Of course, I was wrong in assuming that the maximum diameter of a lens
could be smaller with the compromise, given the same focal length.

>    Granted, a lens can have a larger "usable area" than a given
>camera actually takes advantage of -- as for example a lens designed for
>a full-frame 35mm mounted on a DSLR body with a 1.5 or 1.6 crop factor.

>    But -- there are also lenses made explicitly for the crop factor
>of a DSLR which will not adequately cover a full frame 35mm.  They will
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>lenses made somewhat lighter by restricting the coverage to a DSLR crop
>factor.

That's what I had in mind, except that I assumed that the maximum
diameter could be smaller, too, but that would result in a smaller
maximum aperture, I would think.

>>You have the same logical prowess and the same sense of responsibility
>>in paraphrasing others that George Preddy has.

>    And it would seem that you are not properly considering what
>your own words say.

As you can see, I stand corrected very easily *when* I am actually
wrong.  As it stands, unless there is some factor I am unaware of, I
don't think you can make the maximum diameter of the lens (entrance)
smaller at the same maximum aperture.  I forgot this when I initially
spoke of the large 300mm Olympus lens.
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DoN. Nichols - 06 Aug 2005 05:31 GMT
    [ ... ]

>Of course, I was wrong in assuming that the maximum diameter of a lens
>could be smaller with the compromise, given the same focal length.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>diameter could be smaller, too, but that would result in a smaller
>maximum aperture, I would think.

    Hmm ... I'm not so sure about that.  The diameter of the iris
should be the same (unless there are some major optical tricks being
pulled), but the front element is often much larger than the maximum
diameter of the iris -- especially with extreme wide angle lenses.  And
the needed front element diameter for a wide angle lens is a function of
the crop factor, so yes, I believe that the front element could be
smaller for a lens of the same focal length, but optimized for a higher
crop factor than the default 1:1 of the 35mm film camera.

    Also, if you can get the rear element closer to the focal plane,
you can probably get away with a smaller rear element as well, as a wide
angle is typically an inverted telephoto.  And, with a higher crop
factor, the mirror can be smaller, so there is more clearance for a
rear-protruding element.  Somewhere else in this thread (IIRC) was a
discussion of someone taking the Cannon kit lens designed for the
Digital Rebels and performing surgery to allow it to be used in a 20D as
well, as they have the same (or nearly so) crop factor.  It still risks
damage to the lens or the mirror in a film camera, of course.

>>>You have the same logical prowess and the same sense of responsibility
>>>in paraphrasing others that George Preddy has.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>As you can see, I stand corrected very easily *when* I am actually
>wrong.

    So I see -- and I am very pleased to see this.  Thank you!
If more of the participants in this newsgroup were of similar behavior,
my killfile would be a lot smaller. :-)

>        As it stands, unless there is some factor I am unaware of, I
>don't think you can make the maximum diameter of the lens (entrance)
>smaller at the same maximum aperture.  I forgot this when I initially
>spoke of the large 300mm Olympus lens.

    As mentioned above, I believe that this *is* possible for wide
angle lenses, at least.  I have my doubts about telephoto lenses,
however.

    All of my glass is Nikon (as are my cameras, of course), so I
don't worry as much about the details of the Cannon debates, but when the
thread covers a subject which applies to both the Nikon and the Cannon
DSLRs (as well as other makers), I will sometimes read fairly deeply
into a thread, if I don't get chased off by the flame exchanges.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.
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G.T. - 06 Aug 2005 06:45 GMT
> [ ... ]
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> Digital Rebels and performing surgery to allow it to be used in a 20D as
> well,

To work on non-EF-S cameras like a 10D.  The kit lens works fine on a 20D.

Greg
Stacey - 06 Aug 2005 06:33 GMT
> The idea was that compromises could be made in lens design when the
> focal area was smaller.  This would mean simpler construction, optimized
> for a smaller area, and we've been promised smaller lenses with the same
> or better performance, optimized for the smaller area.

Which is true for wide angle lenses, it doesn't work that way on the
telephotoend, other than the FOV equiv which you say is BS?

> Of course, I was wrong in assuming that the maximum diameter of a lens
> could be smaller with the compromise, given the same focal length.

Exactly, but AGAIN when you actually use the lens on a camera, you get the
EXACT same magnification at the sensor with a smaller lighter lens.

> That's what I had in mind, except that I assumed that the maximum
> diameter could be smaller, too, but that would result in a smaller
> maximum aperture, I would think.

On the tele end yes, you are starting to understand.

Signature


 Stacey

JPS@no.komm - 06 Aug 2005 11:33 GMT

>> The idea was that compromises could be made in lens design when the
>> focal area was smaller.  This would mean simpler construction, optimized
>> for a smaller area, and we've been promised smaller lenses with the same
>> or better performance, optimized for the smaller area.

>Which is true for wide angle lenses, it doesn't work that way on the
>telephotoend, other than the FOV equiv which you say is BS?

I never said that the FOV "equiv" is BS.  You said that it was OK for
the Oly 300mm to be big, because it functions, FOV-wise, like a 400mm on
a 1.6xFOV camera.  That is irrelevant to the concept of a lens of a
certain absolute focal length being engineered smaller and lighter for a
smaller crop.  Whether or not that is true, that is what was being
discussed.  

You seem totally incapable of following a discussion.  All you do is
throw out all kinds of outrageous statements, hoping to trap someone in
an incorrect, but equally outrageous response, and you see that
happening even when they are not incorrect.  You are a troll, by
definition.

>> Of course, I was wrong in assuming that the maximum diameter of a lens
>> could be smaller with the compromise, given the same focal length.

>Exactly, but AGAIN when you actually use the lens on a camera, you get the
>EXACT same magnification at the sensor with a smaller lighter lens.

The lens could still possibly be smaller and lighter than the same focal
length with a larger target focal plane.  In other words, all the
benefit may not have been achieved.  You claim it is achieved, but it
may only be partially achieved, by function, but not in actual
engineering.

>> That's what I had in mind, except that I assumed that the maximum
>> diameter could be smaller, too, but that would result in a smaller
>> maximum aperture, I would think.

>On the tele end yes, you are starting to understand.

It is not certain that the max diameter could not be smaller.  I am
simply not certain that it could be.
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Tony  Polson - 06 Aug 2005 22:49 GMT
>I never said that the FOV "equiv" is BS.  You said that it was OK for
>the Oly 300mm to be big, because it functions, FOV-wise, like a 400mm on
>a 1.6xFOV camera.  That is irrelevant to the concept of a lens of a
>certain absolute focal length being engineered smaller and lighter for a
>smaller crop.  Whether or not that is true, that is what was being
>discussed.  

I agree.  I can see Stacey's point about FOV, but it does nothing to
explain why the Olympus Zuiko Digital 300mm f/2.8 ED is no smaller or
lighter than 300mm f/2.8 lenses for 35mm cameras.

The size issue appears mystifying but there is actually a very good
reason for this.  The reason lies in the basic differences between a
lens designed for film and a Zuiko Digital lens.

Zuiko Digital lenses are designed to be as near telecentric as
practically possible for each focal length/aperture - or range of
focal lengths/apertures in the case of the zooms.  A lens that is
purely telecentric means that all the light rays exiting the rear
element arrive perpendicular to the plane of the sensor.  Lenses that
are designed to be telecentric will almost always be much more bulky
and weigh far more than lenses that are not.

This also explains why the lens throat in the ZD mount is so large.
It is much bigger than the Nikon F lens throat and almost as large as
the Canon EF throat, despite the fact that the Four Thirds sensor is
only about a quarter of the area of the 24x36mm frame of 35mm film.

The small Four Thirds sensor would appear to indicate that lenses for
that system could be physically significantly smaller and therefore
much lighter than lenses for 35mm film - but they are only smaller and
lighter than telecentric lenses for film would have been, if they
existed.

To put it another way (one that hopefully makes more sense) Olympus
chose from the outset to offer lenses for the Four Thirds system that
are as near telecentric as possible.  This means that part of the
potential size and weight advantage of using a smaller sensor has had
to be given up in order to obtain the optical characteristics that the
designers strove to achieve.

The near-telecentric design of the Zuiko Digital lenses helps to
explain their extremely good optical performance.  The pro grade ZD
lenses are extremely sharp even into the corners at wide apertures,
inviting much favourable comment from testers including many
comparisons with Leica glass - high praise indeed.  

This characteristic sets them apart from most other lens ranges for
DSLRs.  That is because no other manufacturer has yet optimised their
lens designs for use with digital sensors (rather than film) to the
extent that Olympus has.  Indeed, other brand lenses "optimised" for
smaller-than-24x36mm sensors have mostly been optimised to reduce
bulk, weight and cost with little or no attention paid to making them
telecentric.

Of course the fact that Olympus started with a blank sheet of paper
has helped here.  With no legacy 35mm range to accommodate, Olympus
has been able to set priorities for optical design that are far better
suited to digital capture.

This goes a long way to explaining why Zuiko lenses for the Olympus OM
System perform so badly on Four Thirds.  The results are pretty dire,
except for a small number of OM lenses used at a specific, usually
small range of apertures (and focal lengths, if zooms).  That is
because most Zuikos for OM are far from being telecentric designs.

Exactly the same applies with other brands of lens when they are used
on Four Thirds bodies using third party adapters.

I should point out that the inexpensive Zuiko Digital kit lenses for
the E-300 are not nearly as telecentric as the pro range, which
explains their smaller size, lower weight and low cost.  They also
perform less well, but because they are still designed to be as near
telecentric as practicable at the price point, they are still very
good performers.

I hope this all goes some way towards shedding a little light on a
discussion that seems to be taking place in near-total darkness.
MarkH - 07 Aug 2005 01:21 GMT
> I agree.  I can see Stacey's point about FOV, but it does nothing to
> explain why the Olympus Zuiko Digital 300mm f/2.8 ED is no smaller or
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I hope this all goes some way towards shedding a little light on a
> discussion that seems to be taking place in near-total darkness.

I suspect that you are pretty much correct in what you say.

Except that the non-telecentric lens problem with D-SLRs that has been
observed with cameras like the Canon 1Ds and 1DsMkII have been with the
wide angle lenses.  With the longer lenses there really haven't been any
issues observed.

If you take the Canon 300 f2.8L IS lens and use it with the Canon 20D then
you get VERY high quality images at 8MPix with an equivalent FoV of 480mm
and you can crop to a 5MPix image that has an equivalent FoV of about
600mm.  I have my doubts that you would get any better from the 4/3 system
equivalent.

Making the lens larger, heavier and much more expensive doesn't really give
the payback you might hope for on the telephoto lenses.  I just don't see
the big advantage of the 4/3 system at all.  Surely Canon could easily make
telecentric lenses in the future and you could crop a Canon image to match
the 4/3 image, you certainly can't uncrop the 4/3 image to match Canon (or
Nikon or Pentax).

For a 2x crop camera + 300mm lens (for effective FoV of 600mm) I think I
would rather have the new Nikon D2X and be able to shoot at 8fps for 29
frames RAW (or 35 frames JPG).  The cost of the D2X is obviously higher,
but the 300mm lens is much cheaper.  Over all the Nikon D2X + Nikon 300
f2.8 is WAY better value for money than the Olympus 4/3 camera + Zuiko 300
f2.8.

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Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 25-June-05)
"There are 10 types of people, those that
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Tony  Polson - 07 Aug 2005 12:32 GMT
>Over all the Nikon D2X + Nikon 300
>f2.8 is WAY better value for money than the Olympus 4/3 camera + Zuiko 300
>f2.8.

You are comparing apples with oranges.  

To get the same shot as the Olympus E-1 (or E-300) and 300mm f/2.8
combination you would need to put a 400mm f/2.8 on the Nikon.  That
lens costs $7699.95 at B&H.  At $5999.95, the ZD 300mm f/2.8 costs a
whole $1700 less, so you can forget the D2X.
Jeremy Nixon - 07 Aug 2005 20:46 GMT
Tony Polson  <tp@nospam.com> wrote:

> To get the same shot as the Olympus E-1 (or E-300) and 300mm f/2.8
> combination you would need to put a 400mm f/2.8 on the Nikon.

You missed the point -- the D2x has a 2x crop mode that he was saying
is *still* better than the Olympus despite not using the whole sensor.

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RichA - 07 Aug 2005 22:25 GMT
>Tony Polson  <tp@nospam.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>You missed the point -- the D2x has a 2x crop mode that he was saying
>is *still* better than the Olympus despite not using the whole sensor.

Better in what sense?   Their crop mode cuts the CMOS down to 6.8m
which results in the same 2x factor as the Olympus, except that you
have fewer pixels than the E-300 and therefore lower resolution than
the Olympus.
-Rich
Jeremy Nixon - 07 Aug 2005 23:10 GMT
> Better in what sense?

I've no idea how or whether it's better; I've never used an Olympus.  I was
just saying, the comparison was to the D2x is 2x crop mode.

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Brian Baird - 08 Aug 2005 01:11 GMT
> >> To get the same shot as the Olympus E-1 (or E-300) and 300mm f/2.8
> >> combination you would need to put a 400mm f/2.8 on the Nikon.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> have fewer pixels than the E-300 and therefore lower resolution than
> the Olympus.

#1: Price.

#2: The E-300 isn't a pro camera.
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Tony  Polson - 07 Aug 2005 22:40 GMT
>Tony Polson  <tp@nospam.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>You missed the point -- the D2x has a 2x crop mode that he was saying
>is *still* better than the Olympus despite not using the whole sensor.

No, the OP's point concerned value for money, which is why I quoted
prices.  Do keep up!

;-)
Brian Baird - 08 Aug 2005 01:11 GMT
> >> To get the same shot as the Olympus E-1 (or E-300) and 300mm f/2.8
> >> combination you would need to put a 400mm f/2.8 on the Nikon.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> No, the OP's point concerned value for money, which is why I quoted
> prices.  Do keep up!

You quoted prices with the wrong lens.

Please stop being retarded.
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Brian Baird - 07 Aug 2005 21:39 GMT
> To get the same shot as the Olympus E-1 (or E-300) and 300mm f/2.8
> combination you would need to put a 400mm f/2.8 on the Nikon.  That
> lens costs $7699.95 at B&H.  At $5999.95, the ZD 300mm f/2.8 costs a
> whole $1700 less, so you can forget the D2X.

Not the case, Phony Tony.

The D2X has a 6 megapixel 2x crop mode.  So that 300mm f/2.8 would give
the same FOV as a 300mm f/2.8 on a 4/3rds camera.
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JPS@no.komm - 08 Aug 2005 00:17 GMT
>The D2X has a 6 megapixel 2x crop mode.

I calculate 6.75MP

( 12 * 1.5 * 1.5 ) / 4
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MarkH - 08 Aug 2005 01:34 GMT
>>Over all the Nikon D2X + Nikon 300
>>f2.8 is WAY better value for money than the Olympus 4/3 camera + Zuiko
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> lens costs $7699.95 at B&H.  At $5999.95, the ZD 300mm f/2.8 costs a
> whole $1700 less, so you can forget the D2X.

No, the Nikon D2X can shoot at 6.8MPix at 8fps with a 2x multiplier.  The
E-1 is only 5MPix, so the Nikon outperforms is easily.  The E300 is a bit
of a cheap camera and although it has 8MPix it does not shoot anywhere near
as fast.

Buying a cheap camera like the E-300 might be good value if you shoot wide,
but if you shoot more telephoto and want to buy the 300 f2.8 then you will
spend another $5000 and in that case you have spent a lot of money to have
a cheap camera.  It would be better value to buy a pro body like the Nikon
D2X and you will save money if you buy more long lenses.

You can also buy a Canon 20D and shoot at 8MPix with the Canon 300 f2.8L
IS0, then if you crop down to 5MPix you have close to a 2x multiplier and
you can match the E-1 for res at a cheaper price.

The Oly is too dear for the long lenses.

The Oly may have some advantages on the wide lenses, especially if the wide
lens on another brand suffers more from light falloff.

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Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 25-June-05)
"There are 10 types of people, those that
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RichA - 08 Aug 2005 02:09 GMT
>>>Over all the Nikon D2X + Nikon 300
>>>f2.8 is WAY better value for money than the Olympus 4/3 camera + Zuiko
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Buying a cheap camera like the E-300 might be good value if you shoot wide,

It's not.  with a 2x crop factor you need to spend big if you really
want to go wide.  The 7-14mm (14-28mm) Olympus zoom is $2500.00

>but if you shoot more telephoto and want to buy the 300 f2.8 then you will
>spend another $5000 and in that case you have spent a lot of money to have
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>IS0, then if you crop down to 5MPix you have close to a 2x multiplier and
>you can match the E-1 for res at a cheaper price.

How does this work, exactly?  No matter what resolution you choose on
the 20D, the image scale DOES NOT CHANGE like it does when you use the
D2X in it's 6.8meg mode which actually REDUCES the sensor area used to
produce the image.

Jeremy Nixon - 08 Aug 2005 03:10 GMT
> How does this work, exactly?  No matter what resolution you choose on
> the 20D, the image scale DOES NOT CHANGE like it does when you use the
> D2X in it's 6.8meg mode which actually REDUCES the sensor area used to
> produce the image.

Cropping the image after the fact does exactly the same thing as the
2x crop mode on the D2x.  The advantages of doing it in-camera are that
you can shoot faster, use less storage space, and actually see the post-
crop image area in the viewfinder.

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RichA - 08 Aug 2005 07:45 GMT
>> How does this work, exactly?  No matter what resolution you choose on
>> the 20D, the image scale DOES NOT CHANGE like it does when you use the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>you can shoot faster, use less storage space, and actually see the post-
>crop image area in the viewfinder.

Oh my God!
Then I was definitely labouring under the wrong idea.

All this time I thought that a 300mm lens on a 2x sensor was truly a
600mm lens, it's not!
It now seems apparent that the only way to fuctionally get a lens to
provide more detail is to increase the pixel count of the sensor for a
given area size.  In other words, with a given lens, the Olympus E-300
has the highest resolution of any DSLR on the market as far as I know.
Cropping is simply the reduction of the area/pixel count of a given
image.

This means that if they figure out how to keep noise down with smaller
pixels and given excellent lenses, it might be possible to produce
DSLRs with much higher resolution than are available now.  I think
Fuji has produced a sensor with 2um pixels.  Which would mean a
9k x 6k or so and an image size of 54m in the same sensor space that
we now use.

So if you have a 300mm lens and two sensors, one full frame and one
1.5, It would seem to me since the 300mm lens has a fixed focal length
(300mm) and a specific focus point that the only difference is that
the full frame sensor can image a wider field of view than the 1.5
sensor.  So unless it's pixels are physically smaller, the 1.5 sensor
cannot resolve more detail than the full frame sensor because the
300mm lens really isn't turning "into" a 450mm lens when it's used
with the 1.5 sensor. This means there is NO benefit (unless pixel
pitch is smaller) to owing a sub-full frame DSLR!

You may have just cost me $10,000! :)
-Rich
Jeremy Nixon - 08 Aug 2005 08:39 GMT
> All this time I thought that a 300mm lens on a 2x sensor was truly a
> 600mm lens, it's not!

Er, right... the sensor can't change the focal length of the lens.

>  So if you have a 300mm lens and two sensors, one full frame and one
> 1.5, It would seem to me since the 300mm lens has a fixed focal length
> (300mm) and a specific focus point that the only difference is that
> the full frame sensor can image a wider field of view than the 1.5
> sensor.

Right.  You're cropping out the center of the "full" image, which is the
same thing as having a narrower field of view except, as you note, the
lens can't resolve any more than it can resolve.  If you assume that the
lens out-resolves the sensor anyway, this isn't an issue.

(It's worth noting that the same thing happens when you put a teleconverter
onto a lens.  You're magnifying what's already there; you can't get any
more than the lens could give in the first place.)

>  So unless it's pixels are physically smaller, the 1.5 sensor
> cannot resolve more detail than the full frame sensor because the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> You may have just cost me $10,000! :)

Note that the pixels on the D2x are smaller than on the 1Ds2.  And the
pixels on the Olympus are even smaller.  So, really, the D2x is getting
more out of that 300mm lens than the 1Ds2 is -- but that's not a useful
metric, so I think you're thinking down the wrong path here.

Unless you're using bad lenses, it doesn't matter.  So, there are more
important things to consider when deciding how to spend your $10k.

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MarkH - 08 Aug 2005 10:06 GMT
>>> How does this work, exactly?  No matter what resolution you choose
>>> on the 20D, the image scale DOES NOT CHANGE like it does when you
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> All this time I thought that a 300mm lens on a 2x sensor was truly a
> 600mm lens, it's not!

Definitely not, it just captures as narrow a field of view as a 600mm
lens would.  Compared to a FF sensor with the same NUMBER of pixels, it
resolves more.  But compared to a FF sensor with the same pixel pitch,
it resolves the same but captures a narrower FoV.

> It now seems apparent that the only way to fuctionally get a lens to
> provide more detail is to increase the pixel count of the sensor for a
> given area size.  In other words, with a given lens, the Olympus E-300
> has the highest resolution of any DSLR on the market as far as I know.
> Cropping is simply the reduction of the area/pixel count of a given
> image.

Clearly, with a given lens and a given distance from a given subject.
If it is possible to move closer or use a longer lens then the E-300
will resolve no more than any other 8MPix camera, and less than a Nikon
12MPix or Canon 16MPix camera.

> This means that if they figure out how to keep noise down with smaller
> pixels and given excellent lenses, it might be possible to produce
> DSLRs with much higher resolution than are available now.  I think
> Fuji has produced a sensor with 2um pixels.  Which would mean a
> 9k x 6k or so and an image size of 54m in the same sensor space that
> we now use.

On a full frame camera you would also need bigger memory cards, more
powerful computers with more RAM and bigger HDDs.  But yes you could
easily produce a FF camera with 32MPix just using the pixel pitch
currently used in the E-300.
 
>  So if you have a 300mm lens and two sensors, one full frame and one
> 1.5, It would seem to me since the 300mm lens has a fixed focal length
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> with the 1.5 sensor. This means there is NO benefit (unless pixel
> pitch is smaller) to owing a sub-full frame DSLR!

This sounds correct.  But note: the Canon 20D DOES have a smaller pixel
pitch than the Canon 1DsMkII, so if your lens is not long enough to
tightly frame the subject then it is possible that the 20D can out
resolve the 1DMkII.  However when it is possible to move closer to the
subject or use a longer lens, then the 1DsMkII can use 16MPix to capture
the subject which is 40% more linear resolution than the 20D will give.
If you shoot portraits then the 1DsMkII is a better camera - if you
ignore the price of course.

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See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 25-June-05)
"There are 10 types of people, those that
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JPS@no.komm - 08 Aug 2005 03:14 GMT
>How does this work, exactly?  No matter what resolution you choose on
>the 20D, the image scale DOES NOT CHANGE like it does when you use the
>D2X in it's 6.8meg mode which actually REDUCES the sensor area used to
>produce the image.

Sounds to me like he's talking about cropping it yourself.
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MarkH - 08 Aug 2005 05:32 GMT
>>You can also buy a Canon 20D and shoot at 8MPix with the Canon 300
>>f2.8L IS0, then if you crop down to 5MPix you have close to a 2x
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> D2X in it's 6.8meg mode which actually REDUCES the sensor area used to
> produce the image.

It works as I described.  You shoot at 8MPix, either in RAW or JPG.  i.e.
take a picture in the normal way.  Then you crop the picture, in photoshop
or gimp or photowhatever, there must be hundreds of programs that you could
use to crop an image.  When you crop you lose res, but if you start with
8MPix you will still have around 5MPix after cropping down to the
equivalent of what you get from a 4/3 camera.

The big advantage is in having the full 8MPix until you run out of zoom and
do not have a long enough lens to frame the subject tightly enough.  Beyond
that you have 8MPix to play with, so you know you can crop a little later.  

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See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 25-June-05)
"There are 10 types of people, those that
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MarkH - 08 Aug 2005 05:36 GMT
>>Buying a cheap camera like the E-300 might be good value if you shoot
>>wide,
>
> It's not.  with a 2x crop factor you need to spend big if you really
> want to go wide.  The 7-14mm (14-28mm) Olympus zoom is $2500.00

Bloody hell!

Obviously a Canon 1DsMkII + Canon 14 f2.8 is also expensive (but will give
you 16MPix with low noise).

But if you can accept 16mm wide (considering the price many of us are
willing to compromise) you can buy a Canon 20D + Canon 10-22 lens and save
a fortune.  There are also Sigma and Tamron lenses available for Canon or
Nikon that go down to 10 or 12mm.

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See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 25-June-05)
"There are 10 types of people, those that
understand binary and those that don't"

Stacey - 06 Aug 2005 06:30 GMT
>This is more often a consideration with
> wide angle lenses than with telephotos, but I could imagine some long
> lenses made somewhat lighter by restricting the coverage to a DSLR crop
> factor.

Unfortunatly on the tele end this isn't the case, at a given fstop/focal
length the front element is a fixed size and in the case of say a 300mm
f2.8, no matter who makes it the coverage is WAY larger than any of the
formats they are used on, they just mechanically baffle them to reduce
internal flare. Any of these without this mechanical baffleing would cover
6X6 or larger easily.

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 Stacey

Tony  Polson - 06 Aug 2005 22:51 GMT
>>This is more often a consideration with
>> wide angle lenses than with telephotos, but I could imagine some long
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>internal flare. Any of these without this mechanical baffleing would cover
>6X6 or larger easily.

I'm sorry, Stacey, but that is simply not true.  There is no
significant excess coverage outside the 24 x 36mm frame.

See my reply to JPS elsewhere in the thread that explains what is
going on.
Stacey - 07 Aug 2005 07:51 GMT
>>>This is more often a consideration with
>>> wide angle lenses than with telephotos, but I could imagine some long
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I'm sorry, Stacey, but that is simply not true.  There is no
> significant excess coverage outside the 24 x 36mm frame.

Of course not with a 35mm lens mount and baffleing. Remove the optical
element part of the lens, place it in a larger barrel and it would cover
6X6 easily. I've actually done this "hack" with a cheap 35mm tele and it
works fine on 6X6 this way. Like I said, go look at the lens size/weights
for medium format long tele's, they are no larger than the ones for 35mm
once you get past 250mm.

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 Stacey

Ton Maas - 10 Aug 2005 08:41 GMT
> >>So a 300mm lens on a 1Ds works just like it does on a 20D? And I guess a
> >>28mm lens provides the same usefulness on the 1Ds as it does on the 20D as
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >FOV is not *RELEVANT* to the issue of lens size, for a given focal
> >length, max aperture, and usable area of focal plane.

This thread made me wonder if there was ever a lens designed without a
film/sensor format in mind. Maybe some enlarger lenses, though I'm not
sure if a, say 50 mm Rodagon normally used for 35mm will perform
adequately as a wide angle for medium or large format.

Ton
JPS@no.komm - 06 Aug 2005 00:41 GMT
>FOV is not *RELEVANT* to the issue of lens size, for a given focal
>length, max aperture, and usable area of focal plane.

That statement is still technically correct, but has lost its purpose.

Upon reconsideration, I have to say that there really is no way to make
the entrance pupil diameter any smaller for a given focal length at a
given f-stop, for a smaller frame.  The lenses could be cheaper,
possibly lighter, but can not have a narrower entrance pupil for smaller
frames.
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wilt - 06 Aug 2005 01:46 GMT
>Upon reconsideration, I have to say that there really is no way to make
>the entrance pupil diameter any smaller for a given focal length at a
>given f-stop, for a smaller frame.

<<Upon reconsideration, I have to say that there really is no way to
make
the entrance pupil diameter any smaller for a given focal length at a
given f-stop, for a smaller frame.>>

Whichever way of quoting irritates you more, both are acceptable and
found commonly!

Large format lenses are designed to have imaging circles of different
sizes, so that the same focal length might only cover 4x5 while another
might cover 5x7 film.  One *can* control the image circle during lens
design.
JPS@no.komm - 06 Aug 2005 02:01 GMT
>One *can* control the image circle during lens
>design.

Yep.
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Stacey - 06 Aug 2005 06:37 GMT
> Large format lenses are designed to have imaging circles of different
> sizes, so that the same focal length might only cover 4x5 while another
> might cover 5x7 film.  One *can* control the image circle during lens
> design.

On wide angle lenses yes. On the long end, you can't. A 300mm LF lens will
cover 8X10 and you can't make one that will only cover 4X5 using the same
fstop design.

I can promise you ANY of the 300mm f2.8 lenses made will cover 6X6 or larger
if not for the mechanical problems with the smaller lens mount and internal
baffles. 35mm long teles are just as large as the medium format ons at the
same speed/focal length.
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 Stacey

Stacey - 06 Aug 2005 06:26 GMT
>>So a 300mm lens on a 1Ds works just like it does on a 20D? And I guess a
>>28mm lens provides the same usefulness on the 1Ds as it does on the 20D as
>>well.. Glad you don't think FOV is important, seems most people do.
>
> You are a simpleton.  He didn't say "FOV isn't important".

He said  "The FOV is a retarded point of comparison.", what does that mean
to you? Sounds like he believes it isn't an important consideration when
looking at lenses to me.

> FOV is not *RELEVANT* to the issue of lens size, for a given focal
> length, max aperture, and usable area of focal plane.

What you and many seem to be ignorant of is with a tele lens at a given
focal length/fstop, the front lens diameter is a fixed value so you CAN'T
reduce the lens size below a certain point no matter how small the sensor
is. Make a 300mm f2.8 lens for a minox and it will still be this same large
size.

I'll bet ANY 300mm f2.8 lens made will cover 6X6 if it didn't have internal
baffles to reduce the coverage. It's the same with a 180mm f2.8 as well.
I've adapted a couple of longer focal length lenses designed for 35mm to my
6X6 camera so I know this to be true.

What's really ignorant is people argue that "300mm is 300mm" ignoring the
format it's being used on. A 300mm lens is a normal lens on my 8X10 camera
so by your logic it performs the same task as a 300mm lens on a 4/3 camera.

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 Stacey

JPS@no.komm - 05 Aug 2005 03:42 GMT
>>>No way! I want the LARGEST lens I can have on the camera, looks more "Pro"
>>>even if the image quality is the same!
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Or does FOV not apply when comparing a canon to an OM and but it does
>comparing a FF canon to a APS-c one?

No, it does not, because a lens at the *SAME* focal length, that is
optimized for a smaller circle on the focal plane can and should be
smaller.

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Stacey - 05 Aug 2005 07:59 GMT
>>Yea it's a LOT larger than the Canon 400mm F2.8.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> optimized for a smaller circle on the focal plane can and should be
> smaller.


 So what? It's still a lot smaller than the 400mm F2.8 canon lens. And you
know it should be smaller and still have the same image quality because
you've designed high end telephoto lenses?
Signature


 Stacey

JPS@no.komm - 05 Aug 2005 22:38 GMT
>  So what? It's still a lot smaller than the 400mm F2.8 canon lens. And you
>know it should be smaller and still have the same image quality because
>you've designed high end telephoto lenses?

It could be smaller, but it isn't.  Get it?

Look how small the lenses are on P&S cameras with f/2.8 and 200mm+
(actual, not equivalent).  The 4/3 300mm should be moving in that
direction.

The point is, one of the advantages of a smaller sensor is supposed to
be smaller lenses, but it isn't quite happening yet with 4/3.
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RichA - 06 Aug 2005 04:11 GMT
>>  So what? It's still a lot smaller than the 400mm F2.8 canon lens. And you
>>know it should be smaller and still have the same image quality because
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>The point is, one of the advantages of a smaller sensor is supposed to
>be smaller lenses, but it isn't quite happening yet with 4/3.

They can only go so small.  No matter what the image plane diameter
you are supporting, you need a clear front aperture of 107mm (4")
in order to have a 300mm f2.8 lens assembly.  There is no way around
that.  I doubt given the type and number of elements that lens has,
you could get the weight down below 6-8lbs.
-Rich
Stacey - 06 Aug 2005 06:07 GMT
> They can only go so small.  No matter what the image plane diameter
> you are supporting, you need a clear front aperture of 107mm (4")
> in order to have a 300mm f2.8 lens assembly.  There is no way around
> that.  I doubt given the type and number of elements that lens has,
> you could get the weight down below 6-8lbs.
> -Rich

Exactly, these guys don't understand optical design.

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 Stacey

JPS@no.komm - 06 Aug 2005 11:50 GMT
>They can only go so small.  No matter what the image plane diameter
>you are supporting, you need a clear front aperture of 107mm (4")
>in order to have a 300mm f2.8 lens assembly.  There is no way around
>that.  I doubt given the type and number of elements that lens has,
>you could get the weight down below 6-8lbs.

Well, it is possible, conceivably, that in a particular design, the
width of the front of the lens is bigger than is necessary for the max
aperture, and wouldn't be, under a different set of design criteria.

The lens in question has a max diameter of 129mm, and weighs 7.2 lbs.

Olympus 4/3       129 mm     7.2 lbs
Canon             127 mm     6.0 lbs
Nikon             122 mm     5.7 lbs

So, even catering to a sensor half the size of the 35mm film frame, the
lens is wider and heavier.

Hence, my initial surprise.

Stacey's response went on a tangent about justifying it because of
effective FOV.
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RichA - 07 Aug 2005 04:28 GMT
>>They can only go so small.  No matter what the image plane diameter
>>you are supporting, you need a clear front aperture of 107mm (4")
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>width of the front of the lens is bigger than is necessary for the max
>aperture, and wouldn't be, under a different set of design criteria.

Yes, it's a basic law of optical physics that to obtain "X" focal
ratio you need to divide the f.l. by the diameter of the usable
aperture.  There is no way around this.  Sensor size has no bearing on
it, but f.l. of a given lens does vary with sensor size.
-Rich

Stacey - 06 Aug 2005 06:06 GMT
>>  So what? It's still a lot smaller than the 400mm F2.8 canon lens. And
>>  you
>>know it should be smaller and still have the same image quality because
>>you've designed high end telephoto lenses?
>
> It could be smaller, but it isn't.  Get it?

Again you know this to be true because?

> Look how small the lenses are on P&S cameras with f/2.8 and 200mm+
> (actual, not equivalent).  The 4/3 300mm should be moving in that
> direction.

And these P&S zooms have the same speed and quality?

> The point is, one of the advantages of a smaller sensor is supposed to
> be smaller lenses, but it isn't quite happening yet with 4/3.

Sure it's "happening" because they don't require the same focal length to
get the same FOV, again the 300mm f2.8 4/3 lens is a lot smaller than a
canon 400mm f2.8 and the 150mm F2 is smaller than the canon lens with the
same speed/FOV.

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 Stacey

JPS@no.komm - 06 Aug 2005 11:51 GMT
>Sure it's "happening" because they don't require the same focal length to
>get the same FOV, again the 300mm f2.8 4/3 lens is a lot smaller than a
>canon 400mm f2.8 and the 150mm F2 is smaller than the canon lens with the
>same speed/FOV.

But it is possible that they could be smaller/lighter yet; effective FOV
does not change that.
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RichA - 07 Aug 2005 04:34 GMT
>>Sure it's "happening" because they don't require the same focal length to
>>get the same FOV, again the 300mm f2.8 4/3 lens is a lot smaller than a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>But it is possible that they could be smaller/lighter yet; effective FOV
>does not change that.

This kind of ties in with the idea of plastics being worthwhile
materials to use in cameras versus metals.  You could drop a couple
pounds by switching from aluminum housings on those big teles by
switching to plastics, but I have a feeling that the huge differential
of expansion all plastics display would radically effect how well the
lens mechanism operates. I doubt with floating elements, the system
would work properly at all.  Also, ED and fluorite glass and the dense
flint glass needed to construct these modern lenses basically means no
substantial weight reduction is even possible as those glasses are
heavy.  I once took apart a Canon television camera lens.  It has
several elements over 6" in diameter.  The weight of some of them was
shocking because of the special nature of the glass.
Lastly, it is possible Olympus err'd on the side of caution and
designed a 300mm lens that offered a larger image circle than was
needed for full coverage of it's current sensor.  But there would be
reasons for this (upcoming sensor revisions?) and the optical
consequence for the current sensor/image is better aberration control
since only the centre of the elements is being used by the sensor.
-Rich
Philip Homburg - 05 Aug 2005 08:02 GMT
>No, it does not, because a lens at the *SAME* focal length, that is
>optimized for a smaller circle on the focal plane can and should be
>smaller.

I don't think this is true for fast telephoto lenses: the size of the
lens is determined by the large front element.

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JPS@no.komm - 05 Aug 2005 22:44 GMT
>>No, it does not, because a lens at the *SAME* focal length, that is
>>optimized for a smaller circle on the focal plane can and should be
>>smaller.

>I don't think this is true for fast telephoto lenses: the size of the
>lens is determined by the large front element.

Yes, for a given f-stop, that is true; it may be that the smaller size
spoken of in the 4/3 announcements and discussion did relate to
equivalent FOV, or the lenses could be more conical.  What should
change, with the same FL, is the MTF; it should be easier to get higher
resolution in the crop when you can totally compromise uncaptured areas
of the focal plane.
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Stacey - 06 Aug 2005 06:08 GMT
>>>No, it does not, because a lens at the *SAME* focal length, that is
>>>optimized for a smaller circle on the focal plane can and should be
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> resolution in the crop when you can totally compromise uncaptured areas
> of the focal plane.

Which they do, have you looked at the MTF of the 300mm f2.8 or the 150mm f2?
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 Stacey

JPS@no.komm - 06 Aug 2005 12:05 GMT
>Which they do, have you looked at the MTF of the 300mm f2.8 or the 150mm f2?

Don't forget, you lose some of that back when you have to magnify the
image to compensate for the smaller frame.

Compared to 35mm film, take the MTFs up to 10.75mm, and halve the
resolution.
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Stacey - 07 Aug 2005 07:58 GMT
>>Which they do, have you looked at the MTF of the 300mm f2.8 or the 150mm
>>f2?
>
> Don't forget, you lose some of that back when you have to magnify the
> image to compensate for the smaller frame.

And that's why they NEED better performance.

You have to look at the whole system to "compare" fairly. To just say "their
300mm lens isn't any smaller/cheaper" is like me saying "Canon doesn't have
a 7mm wide lens". Canon has a lens with that FOV so the actual mm used is a
pointless arguement. The ZD has to resolve higher than the canon due to the
smaller sensor so it's more difficult to produce.

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 Stacey

JPS@no.komm - 07 Aug 2005 12:46 GMT
>The ZD has to resolve higher than the canon due to the
>smaller sensor so it's more difficult to produce.

That's just the opposite of the common wisdom that says that
smaller-sensor cameras are cheaper to compromise for.  Do you have any
idea how sharp the lenses are on those top-end ZSLRs?  And yet, they
only add less than $300, probably, to the cost of the camera.
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Stacey - 07 Aug 2005 21:41 GMT
>>The ZD has to resolve higher than the canon due to the
>>smaller sensor so it's more difficult to produce.
>
> That's just the opposite of the common wisdom that says that
> smaller-sensor cameras are cheaper to compromise for.

Because no one expects the same image quality. I