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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / July 2005

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Digital SLR - advantages?

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Blair - 27 Jul 2005 17:42 GMT
Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from Digital
to Digital SLR please/
Blair
Tony Polson - 27 Jul 2005 18:00 GMT
>Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from Digital
>to Digital SLR please/

Your friends will be extremely impressed by your DSLR, especially if
it is a Canon with the 18-55mm kit lens.

;-)
Martin Schiff - 27 Jul 2005 18:15 GMT
Interchangeable high quality lenses and speed of operation. When you press
the shutter on a Canon 350D, the picture is taken immediately. On my Sony
Cybershot, you wait and wait and wait and THEN it takes the picture (when
the moment is long gone).

-- Martin

PS AND what Tony said [grin]

>>Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from
>>Digital
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ;-)
Pete D - 27 Jul 2005 21:01 GMT
> Interchangeable high quality lenses and speed of operation. When you press
> the shutter on a Canon 350D, the picture is taken immediately. On my Sony
> Cybershot, you wait and wait and wait and THEN it takes the picture (when
> the moment is long gone).

Bad luck, my Sony V1 is "mostly" very fast.
l e o - 27 Jul 2005 21:20 GMT
>>Interchangeable high quality lenses and speed of operation. When you press
>>the shutter on a Canon 350D, the picture is taken immediately. On my Sony
>>Cybershot, you wait and wait and wait and THEN it takes the picture (when
>>the moment is long gone).
>
> Bad luck, my Sony V1 is "mostly" very fast.

I have V1 too. It's SLOW.
Mike - 28 Jul 2005 01:01 GMT
> >>Interchangeable high quality lenses and speed of operation. When you press
> >>the shutter on a Canon 350D, the picture is taken immediately. On my Sony
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I have V1 too. It's SLOW.

My V1 is fairly fast most of the time - but (in auto mode) when light conditions are relatively poor or it needs a
flash you could fry an egg in the time it takes to decide what to do. Just got a 350D an I am still in awe at its
speed. Faster than my old film SLR.

Mike
Pete D - 28 Jul 2005 07:20 GMT
>> >>Interchangeable high quality lenses and speed of operation. When you
>> >>press
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Mike

My D-SLR is of course faster but once you have focused there is not much
difference and the V1 is much better in zero light conditions.
skroob - 27 Jul 2005 22:31 GMT
well, they may be with the camera, but not with that lens. ;)

>>Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from
>>Digital
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ;-)
Robert R Kircher, Jr. - 27 Jul 2005 18:13 GMT
> Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from
> Digital
> to Digital SLR please/
> Blair

I'm sure there are all kinds of technical reason that some of our more
professional photog posters can give you but for me there were three reasons
which I'll list in no particular order

1) Vrtual lack of shutter lag.  This one thing used to bug me the most from
any of the P&S camera's I've used.  Great pictures but don't bother using
them for action shots.  (at least all the one's I've used)

2) Extensive lens choice and creativity possibilities.  Most P&S's have a
limited, although sometime good range from wide angle to telephoto but  I
wanted the flexibility to change lenses for my particular needs.  Right now
I have a good telephoto zoom (larger then any P&S that I know of) along with
a good mid range zoom and the kit lens for wide angle.  I want to get a much
better and much wider wide angle and even possibly a Fish Eye lens these
things along with the long telephoto you just can get on a P&S

3) SLR camera's are what I'm used to.  I got back into photography after an
almost 20 year hiatus.  My last camera was an Oly OM1 SLR so when I decided
to get back into it I simply went with what I was familiar with an SLR but
this time Digital.

and as a bonus I'll through in reason 4.

4) I think holding a very small box out at arms length and composing a shot
on a small LCD screen looks, to us a term my teenage daughter uses, gay.
;-) Anyone taking picture like this looks like a tourist where as when I
walk around with my gear I LOOK like a professional and as we all know
"Looking good is much better then being [feeling] good." ;-)

--

Rob
John A. Stovall - 27 Jul 2005 18:44 GMT
snipped
>4) I think holding a very small box out at arms length and composing a shot
>on a small LCD screen looks, to us a term my teenage daughter uses, gay.
>;-) Anyone taking picture like this looks like a tourist where as when I
>walk around with my gear I LOOK like a professional and as we all know
>"Looking good is much better then being [feeling] good." ;-)

But DSLR shooters are bad about "chimping".

http://www.sportsshooter.com/special_feature/chimping/index.html

********************************************************

"A nice man is a man of nasty ideas."

          _Introductions to History of the Reformation_
                   Jonathan Swift
                      1667-1745
                   
Robert R Kircher, Jr. - 27 Jul 2005 19:02 GMT
> snipped
>>4) I think holding a very small box out at arms length and composing a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> http://www.sportsshooter.com/special_feature/chimping/index.html

I love that John and I have to admit I'm guilty...  BUT...  I'm just a
beginner.  That my excuse and I'm sticking to it.  ;-)

--

Rob
Skip M - 27 Jul 2005 21:48 GMT
> snipped
>>4) I think holding a very small box out at arms length and composing a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> http://www.sportsshooter.com/special_feature/chimping/index.html

Most of what he's showing isn't "chimping."  (I don't know what was being
said, for some reason, there was no sound.)  Those guys were checking
exposure, or composition, after the image. "Chimping" usually refers to
focusing, composing and checking exposure on the run _before_  exposure.
And many of those guys had cameras on monopods, the complete antithesis of
"chimping."

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Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

G.T. - 28 Jul 2005 01:51 GMT
> > snipped
> >>4) I think holding a very small box out at arms length and composing a
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> And many of those guys had cameras on monopods, the complete antithesis of
> "chimping."

Chimping means going "ooo oooo ooo" like a monkey after reviewing your
images.  I have no idea what you're talking about.

Greg
Skip M - 28 Jul 2005 02:51 GMT
The Chimping I've heard reference to is the habit of running around with the
camera held at arms length, framing in an LCD.  If you've ever seen chimps
run, they lift their arms over their heads, to get them out of the way,
since their arms are longer than their legs.
None of those guys, or at least very few, were going "ooo ooo ooo," I'd
imagine.  Reviewing an image usually involves anything between a mutter of
satisfaction to an utterance of "oh, crap," to a "what the f---!?"
Maybe us less informed types just assumed what chimping meant, since nobody
we know does "ooo ooo ooo" during photography.  Sex, maybe, but not
photography... ;-)

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Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Frank ess - 28 Jul 2005 03:06 GMT
> The Chimping I've heard reference to is the habit of running around
> with the camera held at arms length, framing in an LCD.  If you've
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> nobody we know does "ooo ooo ooo" during photography.  Sex, maybe,
> but not photography... ;-)

I guess everyone is entitled to put a gloss on a new way of expressing
something.

Way I heard it, the Chimpers are recent adopters who for the first
time are able to see the marvelous, dramatic, fulfilling images
they've just made, on their new LCDs, _al_ _instante_. The designation
came from the "ooo ooo ooo"s, sure enough.

Of course no one will admit to ever chimping, once they become
acclimated to this modern miracle. So, they have to make it a term of
derision, distancing themselves from the pure early joy of
appreciation, to their loss.

For my part, I've met some delightful strangers by sidling up to a
chimper or two, asked if they knew what it was called, what they were
doing, and explaining why. Fun, and a pleasant, spontaneous laugh
almost always ensues.

I have a couple of pictures of very attractive chimpers chimping,
before I enlightened them. I don't know why the camera refused to
focus on them. Anyone else encountered this effect?

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Frank ess

G.T. - 28 Jul 2005 03:24 GMT
> > The Chimping I've heard reference to is the habit of running around
> > with the camera held at arms length, framing in an LCD.  If you've
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> doing, and explaining why. Fun, and a pleasant, spontaneous laugh
> almost always ensues.

The two videos referenced earlier of professional sports photographers
discussing chimping is quite amusing.  But like one of the guys said, if
he's chimping he's probably missing a shot.

Greg
JPS@no.komm - 28 Jul 2005 09:32 GMT
>Of course no one will admit to ever chimping, once they become
>acclimated to this modern miracle. So, they have to make it a term of
>derision, distancing themselves from the pure early joy of
>appreciation, to their loss.

Wouldn't "chimping" also include a lot of naivety about LCD contrast
masking exposure problems, and small images making a lack of
sharpness/detail?

But then again, even a lot of seasoned photographers have been known to
say things like "wow, that's a sharp lens; I have to get one of those",
when they are looking at an 800*533 downsample, the sharpness of which
is mostly dependent on post-processing, unless the shot was completely
botched up, with almost any lens.
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Skip M - 28 Jul 2005 13:29 GMT
>> The Chimping I've heard reference to is the habit of running around
>> with the camera held at arms length, framing in an LCD.  If you've
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> made, on their new LCDs, _al_ _instante_. The designation came from the
> "ooo ooo ooo"s, sure enough.

One, and others, stands corrected...
I guess I save my chimping for looking at my monitor at home.  (Chimping in
the privacy of ones own room?) ;-)

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Robert R Kircher, Jr. - 28 Jul 2005 03:10 GMT
> The Chimping I've heard reference to is the habit of running around with
> the camera held at arms length, framing in an LCD.  If you've ever seen
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> nobody we know does "ooo ooo ooo" during photography.  Sex, maybe, but not
> photography... ;-)

Just a quick google search indicates that the video posted by John is spot
on.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=chimping

HTH

--

Rob
Skip M - 28 Jul 2005 13:30 GMT
>> The Chimping I've heard reference to is the habit of running around with
>> the camera held at arms length, framing in an LCD.  If you've ever seen
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Rob

Like I said earlier, I stand corrected.  Misunderstanding, reinforced by a
couple of other "misunderstanders."

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Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Kelly - 27 Jul 2005 18:31 GMT
> Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from  
> Digital
> to Digital SLR please/
> Blair

 Assuming you aren't just trolling...

1. Interchangable lenses...i.e. better quality optics, image  
stabilization/vibration reduction, faster lenses, ability to switch from  
ultra-wide to super-telephoto, specialized lenses (macro, tilt-shift,  
etc.) -- granted this is all provided you can afford it!

2. More ISO levels available and generally less noise at higher ISOs.

3. Potentially more control (does your P&S allow control over shutter  
speed, apeture, ability to add external flash...) These allow control of  
point of focus, depth of field, blurring effects.

4. Potentially greater size files -- depends on what you are changing from  
and too but generally a DSLR has more megapixels than the P&S cameras do,  
and better noise reduction too.

5. Generally improved hardware/software -- how many focus points does your  
P&S have? How quick does it focus? How good is it's light metering system?  
Can you select from several systems (matrix, spot, evaluative)? Does it  
allow manual focusing? Multiple focus systems (predictive, single shot,  
servo)? Ability to generate RAW files? Do you do action photos? How many  
frames per second can your P&S take?

Drawbacks:

1. Size and weight - a P&S is much smaller and lighter.

2. Cost - all that flexibility comes at a price.

3. Simplicity - to get your moneys worth from a DSLR you have to  
understand all the above features and what they can do for you (and what  
you can do with them!) With a P&S camera you just have to Point & Shoot.  
Of course with a P&S if the picture disappoints you may not have many  
options to try to better it, with a DSLR you have MANY options.

  Please note that all the above may apply, some non-DSLR digitals are  
quite robust in regards to features, and cost almost as much as a DSLR (or  
more!).

Kelly
Todd H. - 27 Jul 2005 18:56 GMT
> Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from Digital
> to Digital SLR please/

In a nutshell:
       The flexibility of interchangeable lenses
       Vastly improved flash photography with use of external flash
       units.
       Drastically reduced shutterlag.
       Faster, more predictable, WYSIWYG focusing

Downsides:
       Cost. Sometimes signficiant.   An f/2.8 usable zoom lens on a
       digital P/S can be had for under $300.  Try that on a dSLR!
       No video movie modes on dSLRs typically
       Size/bulk.
       
--
Todd H.  
http://www.toddh.net/
John A. Stovall - 27 Jul 2005 18:58 GMT
>> Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from Digital
>> to Digital SLR please/
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>        digital P/S can be had for under $300.  Try that on a dSLR!
>        No video movie modes on dSLRs typically

No video is a plus.

********************************************************

"A nice man is a man of nasty ideas."

          _Introductions to History of the Reformation_
                   Jonathan Swift
                      1667-1745
                   
David Geesaman - 27 Jul 2005 19:32 GMT
> Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from
> Digital
> to Digital SLR please/
> Blair

   I just made the switch (Canon 300D), but I keep my point and shoot
around also.

   Some points of note:

- You will need to learn about traditional photography to take full
advantage of a dSLR.  Exposure, shutter speed, aperture, white balance, etc.
The advantage is that once you know about it, you can take better pictures.
If you don't care to learn, it's your loss.

- They are heavier, and easily dirtied by dust.  P&S cameras are basically
sealed and can handle dirty/rough environments.  I still use my P&S in the
garage and for work when I'm working in powerhouses.

- dSLRs have much better lenses, flashes, and sensors.  Taking 8MP pics with
a P&S vs. the dSLR you'll see a difference.  When you crop a pic down to web
size, you'll still see a big difference.

- Budget for lenses and memory cards.  A kit dSLR runs from $700 to $1800,
and none of them are 'complete'.  Expect a couple hundred for CF cards, and
a thousand for basic lenses, filters, and carry bag.  Also external flash
and tripod/monopod.  Budget 2/3 for lenses and 1/3 for the basic camera body
or kit.  Of course, you don't need to spend all this on day one, but IMO
within 6 months to a year you'll be ready/waiting for this balanced range of
equipment.

- dSLRs are fast.  Instant - the new models turn on almost instantly and can
rattle off several shots in a second or two.  For shooting a moving subject,
you can hold the shutter down and rattle off several shots and delete the
least impressive ones.

- dSLRs must be pressed to your face to aim them.  So you can't turn on the
screen and hold the camera above a crowd for an easy pic, for example.  (You
can do it, but you'll be aiming blind).

- dSLR batteries last a relatively long time.  My P&S (4 NiMH AA batteries)
seems to need constant recharging, while the dSLR is almost always ready to
go, and the spare doesn't lose it's juice by sitting for a month.

- dSLR cannot take video.  (However, for some things it can take a burst of
10shots in 2 seconds.)  A few hundred bucks (not big $$ in the dSLR world)
will get a digital video camera that works much better for this.

- dSLRs take big pictures (a few megabytes or more per picture) that can
fill hard drives.  While P&S cameras can take similar pictures, they are
often more compressed and lower resolution.  If you're buying a current dSLR
to replace a previous generation P&S, you'll see a huge difference.  (My 2MP
P&S created 650kB pics, my dSLR creates 4000kB .jpgs and 6000kB RAW files).
Since it's important to save the unedited orginals, plan to use a DVD-R
drive or a large hard drive to store them.

   Dave
Pete D - 27 Jul 2005 21:06 GMT
Traditional photography - White balance, hmmmm, I guess so.

>> Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from
>> Digital
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>
>    Dave
David Geesaman - 28 Jul 2005 13:37 GMT
> Traditional photography - White balance, hmmmm, I guess so.
>
>> - You will need to learn about traditional photography to take full
>> advantage of a dSLR.  Exposure, shutter speed, aperture, white balance,

   I guess white balance is not an issue with film photography - but it
certainly is something new if you are coming from point and shoot.
   Since we're being anal-retentive, when are you going to learn to snip
and bottom post?

   Dave
CFB - 28 Jul 2005 15:25 GMT
> > Traditional photography - White balance, hmmmm, I guess so.
> >
> >> - You will need to learn about traditional photography to take full
> >> advantage of a dSLR.  Exposure, shutter speed, aperture, white balance,
>
>     I guess white balance is not an issue with film photography

BZZZT! Wrong.

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David Geesaman - 28 Jul 2005 19:44 GMT
>> > Traditional photography - White balance, hmmmm, I guess so.
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> BZZZT! Wrong.

   Well then by including it in my original list I was not mistaken.  (and
frankly, I don't care since I don't own a film SLR).  This could be the most
anal and argumentative group I've yet perused - rather than getting
practical comments on what I posted, it's this.  Low on intelligence, high
on noise.

   Dave
JPS@no.komm - 28 Jul 2005 20:45 GMT
>Low on intelligence, high
>on noise.

Not bad for the price!
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CFB - 29 Jul 2005 16:40 GMT
> >> > Traditional photography - White balance, hmmmm, I guess so.
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> practical comments on what I posted, it's this.  Low on intelligence, high
> on noise.

I tell you something about film and you say is wrong and then go one to
say it does not matter because you don't shoot film?

It's not so bad to be wrong. Knowledge is not intelligence.

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David Geesaman - 29 Jul 2005 19:24 GMT
>>     Well then by including it in my original list I was not mistaken.
>> (and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> It's not so bad to be wrong. Knowledge is not intelligence.

   I'm not questioning your knowledge, and that list I made was simply to
provide the OP (presumably coming from a point and shoot background) a few
things they should consider learning about if they move to dSLR.  I mentiond
'traditional photography terms' simply to generalize my list of topics.  If
in your opinion white balance is or is not a traditional photography topic,
I admit I don't know.  I'm a new dSLR shooter who came up from P&S cameras,
and I related what I felt was the most valuable info I've culled so far.
   That one brief section in my post is the one I am least experienced
with, so I'm sure you advanced guys will have no problem finding exceptions
to my generalizations.  But I can't see how it matters to the OP is white
balance is more or less critical in film than digital.  You commented on
that detail and nothing else relevant to the OP; this is disappointing to
me.  Intelligent people don't BZZZT each other, and don't poke useful
generalizations with useless details.

   BTW I love the pic of the horse (pony?) with the tilted head.  It's a
subtly unique shot - horses are my subject of choice and too many horse
photographs are taken in an attempt to capture full page magazine glamour.
People who love horses (rather than buy them) I think share my sentiment and
appreciate when the character of the horse or the moment is held.

   Dave
Jeremy Nixon - 29 Jul 2005 20:48 GMT
> If in your opinion white balance is or is not a traditional photography
> topic, I admit I don't know.

"White balance" is a term from video that came to digital cameras; it was
never applied to film photography.  However, what the term describes was
just as valid for film as for digital, we just didn't call it "white
balance".  So can we stop nitpicking now?

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Marc Sabatella - 30 Jul 2005 20:23 GMT
> But I can't see how it matters to the OP is white
> balance is more or less critical in film than digital.

It's relevant to anyone who has ever or will ever use both types of cameras.
Plenty of people reading this thread fall into that category.  So I don't
see the point of criticizing eople for making valid points.

---------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Pete D - 28 Jul 2005 21:18 GMT
>> > Traditional photography - White balance, hmmmm, I guess so.
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> BZZZT! Wrong.

Of couse it is, but lets see you fix it in camera, you would need to fix in
the darkroom, very few would or you digitise and then fix it.
CFB - 29 Jul 2005 16:48 GMT
> >> > Traditional photography - White balance, hmmmm, I guess so.
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Of couse it is, but lets see you fix it in camera, you would need to fix in
> the darkroom, very few would or you digitise and then fix it.

BZZZZT! Wrong.

Buy a filter or use specific film for the temperature.
http://photoweb.net/pw_tech/floures1.html

Also, you can use a film scanner to balance.

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Pete D - 30 Jul 2005 13:24 GMT
>> >> > Traditional photography - White balance, hmmmm, I guess so.
>> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Also, you can use a film scanner to balance.

Sorry but I rarely carry around a film scanner and I do not swap film as the
conditions may change, I do this for fun not for money, we are talking about
real people here not the exceptions.
CFB - 30 Jul 2005 13:53 GMT
> >> >> > Traditional photography - White balance, hmmmm, I guess so.
> >> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Sorry but I rarely carry around a film scanner

Errr, I leave mine at home.

> and I do not swap film as the
> conditions may change,

What about filters?

> I do this for fun not for money, we are talking about
> real people here not the exceptions.

Then why do you keep responding to me? I do it for "fun" as well. You
claim to know a lot for being a "real" person.

Damn, I was just trying to reveal something to you.

Sorry about that.

Peace

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Pete D - 30 Jul 2005 23:12 GMT
> Then why do you keep responding to me? I do it for "fun" as well. You
> claim to know a lot for being a "real" person.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Peace

I think the main thing here is that very few people have had anything to do
with white balance until they started with digital photography, I have been
using it in my video production for many years but never considered it
something I could control much in 30 years of film photograhy, if I was
inside I used flash, if I didn't use flash then there would be a colour cast
unless as you say I used an FLD or whatever filter.
JPS@no.komm - 31 Jul 2005 03:12 GMT
>I think the main thing here is that very few people have had anything to do
>with white balance until they started with digital photography, I have been
>using it in my video production for many years but never considered it
>something I could control much in 30 years of film photograhy, if I was
>inside I used flash, if I didn't use flash then there would be a colour cast
>unless as you say I used an FLD or whatever filter.

I use an FLD in daylight with my 20D.  Two of them would be perfect, but
too many extra surfaces, and vignetting on my 10-22mm.

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Tony Polson - 28 Jul 2005 16:00 GMT
> I guess white balance is not an issue with film photography

100% wrong.  White balance is much more of an issue with film
photography than it ever will be with digital.
JPS@no.komm - 28 Jul 2005 20:49 GMT
>> I guess white balance is not an issue with film photography

>100% wrong.  White balance is much more of an issue with film
>photography than it ever will be with digital.

Yes and no.  Film is not as easily corrected as digital, but at least
with film, if you are shooting in daylight or with flash, or with
tungsten lights, you have films that are already balanced for something
very close.  With digital, even daylight and flash are way off, and need
tremendous scaling of the RAW data to achieve white balance.  In effect,
the shadows are compromised from being underexposed in the red and blue
channels, especially the red in sunlight and moreso in deep shade, and
the blue, in incandescent light.
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Marc Sabatella - 28 Jul 2005 22:10 GMT
> Yes and no.  Film is not as easily corrected as digital, but at least
> with film, if you are shooting in daylight or with flash, or with
> tungsten lights, you have films that are already balanced for something
> very close.

If you choose the proper film beforehand and load it when the time comes,
sure.  But shooting under tungsten light using daylight film - or the
reverse - is pretty much just as bad as doing the equivalent in digital.

> With digital, even daylight and flash are way off, and need
> tremendous scaling of the RAW data to achieve white balance.

Perhaps; I don't use flash enough to notice or care.  Although I don't
understand why the temperature of the sun or the flash bulb would change
according to whether the cmaera back was digital or film.  But in any case,
given that AWB takes care of any such difference pretty well, I'd say that
for anyone who was not aware of color balance issues in film, they can
remain equally or even more oblivious with digital.

---------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Tony Polson - 28 Jul 2005 22:32 GMT
>> Yes and no.  Film is not as easily corrected as digital, but at least
>> with film, if you are shooting in daylight or with flash, or with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>sure.  But shooting under tungsten light using daylight film - or the
>reverse - is pretty much just as bad as doing the equivalent in digital.

The worst case is in mixed lighting - for example a mixture of
tungsten, fluorescent, halogen and daylight as I found in a department
store shoot recently.  

Having the choice of tungsten or daylight film is of little or no
help.  You can choose a filter and hope for the best, or use digital
and bracket - not exposure, but white balance.

On this occasion I shot digital in the hope the client would accept
it, but I also shot with Provia 100F in 120 using an FL filter.  The
client chose the medium format shots, drum scanned and colour
corrected in Photoshop.
JPS@no.komm - 28 Jul 2005 22:59 GMT
>Perhaps; I don't use flash enough to notice or care.  Although I don't
>understand why the temperature of the sun or the flash bulb would change
>according to whether the cmaera back was digital or film.  But in any case,
>given that AWB takes care of any such difference pretty well, I'd say that
>for anyone who was not aware of color balance issues in film, they can
>remain equally or even more oblivious with digital.

What I was trying to say was that digital exposures in "normal" or
"white" light are not the native color-balance of most digital cameras.

The red and blue color channels are compromised in daylight or flash.
In fact, none of the lighting scenarios that are generally found are
optimal.  Most digital cameras are optimized for magenta light.

Signature

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frederick - 28 Jul 2005 23:45 GMT
>>Perhaps; I don't use flash enough to notice or care.  Although I don't
>>understand why the temperature of the sun or the flash bulb would change
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> In fact, none of the lighting scenarios that are generally found are
> optimal.  Most digital cameras are optimized for magenta light.

To try and get some understanding of how this might work in practice, I
took some photos of a chart which included a full spectrum full
saturation gradient under various lights, adjusted the raw images using
a grey-scale gradient on the chart, and set the colour balance on a 15%
neutral grey.
The results are here:
http://www.geocities.com/angels2000photos/colour.jpg
The only observations I make are that compared to the chart, the magenta
looks a little red shifted with halogen, and saturation of the green is
poor and a little blue.  The others look pretty good - surprisingly to
me, "energy saver" wide spectrum 2700K fluoros look like they'll work
very well for studio lighting with digital.  I don't know if anyone has
tried them - couldn't find anything on google, except conflicting
information.
JPS@no.komm - 29 Jul 2005 01:54 GMT
>>>Perhaps; I don't use flash enough to notice or care.  Although I don't
>>>understand why the temperature of the sun or the flash bulb would change
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>tried them - couldn't find anything on google, except conflicting
>information.

I have a pair of prism glasses that I use to look at lights through a
pinhole in a sheet of black plastic, to get an idea of the spectrums.
The warm-color "incandescent replacement" flourescent bulbs (which, BTW,
paid for themselves in months) have a broad spectrum, but it is a little
punctuated.  It goes something loosely like this:

_____ . __ . ____ ____  ___ . __ . _ .. ___  

a mixture of very narrow bands and contiguous bands, with a bunch of
small gaps.

However, I wasn't talking about this, and I feared, after my post echoed
in my head after I sent it, that it seemed to be talking about light
quality in the way you are talking here.  What I meant to say was that
in order for a RAW capture to have equal sensitivity in all three color
channels, the light has to be magenta colored, with many digital
cameras.  For cameras where this is not true, the native balance is
probably not white, anyway.  The only digital cameras I know of with
native white WB are the Sigmas, and that may be one reason why they have
so little noise (other than color discrimination noise).

To put it another way - If you shoot a white card under direct sunlight
with many digital cameras, the RAW image of the card, demosaiced or
interpolated with no white balance applied, will be somewhere in the
green-cyan range.  In order for the RAW image of the white card to be
white, the light has to be a medium magenta (or something else,
depending on the sensitivity product of the sensor and filters in the
sandwich).

This may seem unimportant, since the typical digital workflow masks you
from details like this (it seems that daylight is the natural WB of the
camera), but if you don't want posterization of one or more channels
after white balancing, and you have full control of the lighting, you
might want to use magenta light, or a magenta filter.

All those stunning, noiseless ISO 1600 100% crops from my 20D I showed a
few weeks ago were shot with magenta-filtered flash.

In ACR 3.1, they needed a white balance of 2900K and -120 tint, which,
in reality, is virtually no white balance at all.

ACR 2.x only went down to -64 for the tint, and couldn't correct it
properly.  Things are moving along slowly.

Signature

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frederick - 29 Jul 2005 02:36 GMT
> I have a pair of prism glasses that I use to look at lights through a
> pinhole in a sheet of black plastic, to get an idea of the spectrums.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> a mixture of very narrow bands and contiguous bands, with a bunch of
> small gaps.

Thanks - that is what I expected to see in a spectral analysis for them,
but I can't find any real data.  I found two charts on the web, one
showing 5500K lights of this type compared to daylight, where for
marketing purposes I guess they had smoothed out the articial light
spectrum in the graph and it appeared quite close to daylight.  The
other chart I found was peaky, but didn't state what the rated colour of
the light was, and for all I know could have been a regular fluoro.
If the test I did showed me anything (and I'm not really sure that it
did), it was that these lights might make more than half decent studio
lights for some of the close-up stuff I like to do, better (and not as
hot) as halogens.  The other things in the test chart were a skin tone
image, and some desaturated gradients and chips.  That confirmed to me
that within reason, adjusting w/b properly from raw is pretty damn
accurate.  I always shoot raw, so just leave the camera on auto WB. I
know from looking at the unadjusted raw images using camera w/b data,
that you can get some pretty variable results, and that if shooting jpgs
the camera presets are probably generally a much better idea.
JPS@no.komm - 29 Jul 2005 12:49 GMT
>If the test I did showed me anything (and I'm not really sure that it
>did), it was that these lights might make more than half decent studio
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>that within reason, adjusting w/b properly from raw is pretty damn
>accurate.

Yes, but the jist of my post was not about final color, per se, but
about the relative digitization of the three channels.  What you get
with a Canon 10D or 20D, with these warm incandescent-replacement lights
are a stop more reds than greens, and a stop-and a half less blues than
greens, in an absolute sense.  Then, when you take the sensitivity of
the camera into account; with red a stop weaker than green, and blue a
half stop or so, the red and green balance out, but the blue falls 2
stops below the red and green, so the blue channel is actually doing
10-bit ISO 400 when the camera is set to ISO 100 (where the red and
green channels are doing 12-bit ISO 100).

Another bad case is deep shade on a deep-blue-sky day, or under a canopy
of green foliage; in these cases the red channel becomes very weak.

Even at low ISOs, you can get quite a bit of chromatic noise from the
posterization of the weak channels, especially in the shadows.

I meantion these things because the WB process of RAW conversion hides
these facts, and doesn't give the information you need to maximize the
quality of digitization.

If those bulbs youa re talking about have a good spectrum, they don't
have a good *balance* of the gross primary color channels.  A suitable
blue filter in front of the lights would reduce posterized color, and
noise.

It would be really nice if the RAW converters used an image of something
like the Gretagmacbeth color checker, to do the WB and RGB profiling.
Then, you could get maximal color rendering with any light source.

>I always shoot raw, so just leave the camera on auto WB. I
>know from looking at the unadjusted raw images using camera w/b data,
>that you can get some pretty variable results, and that if shooting jpgs
>the camera presets are probably generally a much better idea.

There should be a number of custom WB settings, if you use a variety of
lighting, especially useful for good JPEGs out of the camera.  My Canons
only have one custom WB.  Color temperature doesn't alway work fully, as
there is often a tint factor as well.
Signature


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Marc Sabatella - 29 Jul 2005 17:49 GMT
> What I was trying to say was that digital exposures in "normal" or
> "white" light are not the native color-balance of most digital cameras.
>
> The red and blue color channels are compromised in daylight or flash.
> In fact, none of the lighting scenarios that are generally found are
> optimal.  Most digital cameras are optimized for magenta light.

It isn't clear to me what this means in practice, although the subsequent
discussion gives me at leats some idea of where this might be coming from.
I gather this is somehow connected to the ratio of R, G, and B sensors, and
to their sensitivities - you are saying magenta light requires the least
amount of signal amplification or post-processing to produce correct
results?  But is the amount of post processing normally done in conversion
to JPG for normal light sources actually problematic - such as by
introducing noise?

---------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
JPS@no.komm - 30 Jul 2005 04:20 GMT
>It isn't clear to me what this means in practice, although the subsequent
>discussion gives me at leats some idea of where this might be coming from.
>I gather this is somehow connected to the ratio of R, G, and B sensors, and
>to their sensitivities

Yes, to the sensitivities.  The ratios have no bearing at all;  the
green channel is not more sensitive because it has twice as many
sensels; that only affects green spatial resolution.

> - you are saying magenta light requires the least
>amount of signal amplification or post-processing to produce correct
>results?

Most digitals don't amplify the color channels differently, so it is
usually only a RAW conversion issue.

>But is the amount of post processing normally done in conversion
>to JPG for normal light sources actually problematic - such as by
>introducing noise?

Big time, in shadows, and in under-exposed images.  Banding becomes more
likely, and chromatic noise becomes more prevalent.

The RAW data is linear, and therefore, it's shadows are very delicate
(the difference between RAW values 1 and 2 is a stop.  Between 2 and 4
is a stop, and 4 and 8, etc).  There is actually far less precision in
the dark shadows of a 12-bit linear image than there are in an 8-bit
gamma-adjusted image.
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Blair - 27 Jul 2005 21:32 GMT
> > Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from
> > Digital
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> The advantage is that once you know about it, you can take better pictures.
> If you don't care to learn, it's your loss.

I was overwhelmed by all your replies. Thanks to Tony, Martin, Robert, John,
Kelly, Todd and David, I have learned a lot which leads me to say that
I will stick to my Fujifilm 4900Z and try and master the settings  after
mainly using it in auto mode. I still have to have a greater understanding
of photography
which I suspect will take some time. DSLR is away in the future
Thanks to all again
Blair
Toa - 27 Jul 2005 22:20 GMT
> I was overwhelmed by all your replies. Thanks to Tony, Martin, Robert,
> John,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> of photography
> Blair

Good camera.  I have a S602Z and got good results with it (by my standards).
My biggest beef with the Fuji (or any other P&S digital I've tried) is
shutter lag.  I like to take photos of people and the shutter lag
(admittedly only fractions of a second) has meant that I have lost lots of
photos because people's expressions change between the time I click the
button and the time the mechanism does all it's supposed to.  The more
modern P&S cams have addressed this somewhat but I went DSLR mainly to
address the lag issue and also get more flexability in controls.

If shutter lag isn't a big issue for you then I suspect you'll get a lot of
good use out of the 4900Z

Toa
David J Taylor - 28 Jul 2005 07:05 GMT
[]
> Good camera.  I have a S602Z and got good results with it (by my
> standards). My biggest beef with the Fuji (or any other P&S digital
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> If shutter lag isn't a big issue for you then I suspect you'll get a
> lot of good use out of the 4900Z

You are right that more modern cameras are better - both my Panasonic FZ5
and particularly my Nikon 8400 are a lot faster than my previous cameras,
and there are other models which claim to be even faster.

Cheers,
David
Martin Schiff - 27 Jul 2005 22:33 GMT
The Fuji 4900 is a great camera that takes very nice images. We've got a
couple of them here at work. I just got too frustrated with being unable to
catch "the moment".

-- Martin

>> > Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from
>> > Digital
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Thanks to all again
> Blair
Simon Stanmore - 27 Jul 2005 21:35 GMT
> Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from
> Digital
> to Digital SLR please/
> Blair

One of the key benefits for me is the potential to utilise shallow
depth-of-field (due to much larger sensors). The success of many strong
images rely upon this
--
Simon
http://www.pbase.com/stanmore
Martin Schiff - 27 Jul 2005 22:48 GMT
Simon,

And you put it to great use. You have a really great gallery.

-- Martin
http://www.pbase.com/mschiff

>> Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from
>> Digital
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Simon
> http://www.pbase.com/stanmore
Simon Stanmore - 28 Jul 2005 23:52 GMT
> Simon,
>
> And you put it to great use. You have a really great gallery.
>
> -- Martin
> http://www.pbase.com/mschiff

Cheers Martin
--
Simon
http://www.pbase.com/stanmore
CFB - 28 Jul 2005 15:18 GMT
> > Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from
> > Digital
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> depth-of-field (due to much larger sensors). The success of many strong
> images rely upon this

I guess I would ask where you determine success. In art or commercially.
You work is technically good, but subjects like this:

http://www.pbase.com/stanmore/image/23178623

have been done for over 20 years. But your commercial work is great.

Strong images in art, I feel, comes from freeing your self from
statements like: the success of many strong images rely upon (shallow
DOF).

I took pictures with a disposable camera and the couple wanted 8x10's of
some of them.

I mean no ill feelings toward you. I am just talking.

Signature

http://home.nc.rr.com/christianbonanno/

Simon Stanmore - 28 Jul 2005 23:45 GMT
> In article <1122496327.83273.0@iris.uk.clara.net>,
>
> I guess I would ask where you determine success. In art or commercially.
> You work is technically good, but subjects like this:

With regards to what's shown on http://www.pbase.com/stanmore neither.
Despite some of those images selling commercially none were ever made with
the intention to produce either art (under the general definition) or a
saleable commodity.

> http://www.pbase.com/stanmore/image/23178623
>
> have been done for over 20 years.

They've been done an awful lot longer than 20 yrs! That's sort of the point
of the image. It's a modern digital capture thats been processed so that in
print it looks very much like a hand printed silver halide jobbie. It was
done largely to satisfy myself that it could be done. The actual print (on
Fuji Crystal Archive) has been well regarded by some old time B&W diehards.

> But your commercial work is great.

Thanks. Where have you seen my commercial work?

> Strong images in art, I feel, comes from freeing your self from
> statements like: the success of many strong images rely upon (shallow
> DOF).

I not sure that's right. Many good photo's, not by any means a majority
though, really do rely on shallow DOF to make their visual statement. It's a
distinguishing element of photography (and film). Rarely do you experience
this optical effect in other forms of visual art or communication. Many of
us select our lenses with the quality of the rendering of the out of the out
of focus areas firmly in mind ... something else not possible with a fixed
lens camera.

> I took pictures with a disposable camera and the couple wanted 8x10's of
> some of them.

Congratulations???
I once took a photo without any lens at all that won 3 or 4 competitions.
Truth be told it's a piece of crap but I knew those who were judging would
deem it 'arty' and so it stood a good chance. I used to like entering
competitions until I came to realise how formulaic the judges decision
making process is.

> I mean no ill feelings toward you. I am just talking.

That's cool, it's good to 'talk' about what interests you ... even on the
ether
--
Simon
http://www.pbase.com/stanmore
Jan Böhme - 29 Jul 2005 14:39 GMT
>> http://www.pbase.com/stanmore/image/23178623
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>of the image. It's a modern digital capture thats been processed so that in
>print it looks very much like a hand printed silver halide jobbie.

Face and hand are great, and indeed very silver halide-looking. On the
other hand, the low-constrast areas, like the cap or the door, are
hideouly posterised, and most silver halide-unlooking,  in the
version shown at the link.

Presumably the full size version looks more like it, though.

Jan Böhme
Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik.
Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur.
Colin D - 30 Jul 2005 01:17 GMT
> >> http://www.pbase.com/stanmore/image/23178623
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik.
> Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur.

This posterizing is an interesting phenomenon.  If one lifts the shadow
brightnesses in Photoshop or equiv., then yes, posterizing becomes
obvious.  But in the image as presented, the cap and doorframe are very
dark, almost black, and the posterizing is much less noticeable, it's
just accepted as deep shadow in a high-contrast image.  I suppose my
point is, lifting the shadows to see the posterizing is not valid, since
the image is not meant to be viewed with that tonality.  As the image
stands, K=>93% in the tones in the door and the cap, which is pretty
black.  If those parts of the image aren't almost black on your monitor,
perhaps your brightness is set too high.

Colin D.
Bob_Flintstone@nospam.com - 28 Jul 2005 01:55 GMT
>Can someone simply tell me what are the advantages of changing from Digital
>to Digital SLR please/
>Blair

OK, I'll tell you why I changed from a $1500 Minolta Dimage to a $1500 Nikon
DSLR.

Better pictures, more range, less problems with 'blown out highlights'..

Can focus through the lens in sunlight where you can't even see the LCD.

Better pictures, more accurate color.

Battery charge lasts 3 weeks, not 3 hours.

Better pictures, minimal noise at ISO 1600 compared to terrible noise at ISO
400.

No boot time - turn on and snap the shutter.

Fast and accurate time tested Nikon auto-focus.

Smart lenses, telephoto actually tells camera to increase shutter speed when
zoomed out.

Neat flash features like rear curtain flash sync, sync to 1/500sec. etc.

Shutter speeds from 30sec to 1/8000 sec.

Built in infrared remote.

Any lens you can dream up to use, or afford, even telescopes, even anti-shake.

Better re-sale value - my 4yo Minolta is now worth $300...

Lots of other reasons as well, but most important, I LOVE my Nikon, I love
taking pictures again, it's fun!  The Minolta was ho-hum... I took more pics
with the Nikon in 1 month then I took in 2 years with the other.

Get the DSLR!
Andrew Haley - 28 Jul 2005 11:18 GMT
It's interesting that people don't talk much about ergonomics.  For
me, that is one of the most important advantages of a DSLR: everything
is there, right underneath my fingers.

Andrew.
 
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