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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / July 2005

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Noisy sensors -myth explored

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Ryadia - 07 Jul 2005 00:03 GMT
So... You all think the 20D is a low noise camera, do you?
I suppose the Panasonic and Olympus sensors are pretty bad at high ISO
too, eh? Well maybe for a tech-head the specs might say so but what
about a photographer who takes photographs? would he/she know the
difference? For that matter, would he/she actually give hoot about the
deceptions we all refer to as "product specifications" that we must base
our purchase decisions on?

How too, do you handle the situation when you suddenly discover the
serious limitations of your digital SLR masterpiece, when you start to
use it for traditional, highly creative photography where lighting and
shadow become the picture's prime ingredient but the digital
masterpiece's sensor has some serious short comings when capturing the
two extremes which no one told you about?

Maybe I've lost the plot here but I'd have thought a 20D (read 1D II as
well) would be better at recording detail under adverse lighting
conditions than a lowly P&S camera like the Olympus C760 or Panasonic
FZ20. Surprise, surprise! http://www.technoaussie.com/hmm-detail.htm

How is it that the so named "reviewers" at Pbase and the like never
mentioned the strong points of the Panasonic or the weak points of the
20D? The fact that digital cameras cannot record the contrast range of
film, is the reason these examples of extreme contrast have failed.

Douglas
Scott W - 07 Jul 2005 01:01 GMT
> So... You all think the 20D is a low noise camera, do you?
> I suppose the Panasonic and Olympus sensors are pretty bad at high ISO
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Douglas

I notice from the EXIF data that the FZ20 photo was exposed about 4 EV
higher then the Canon, the FZ20 sky is blown out the Canon is not, this
is not really testing the shadow detail.  4 stops under exposed
compared to the FZ20 is going to make it pretty hard to compare the
two.

Scott
Scott W - 07 Jul 2005 01:07 GMT
> > So... You all think the 20D is a low noise camera, do you?
> > I suppose the Panasonic and Olympus sensors are pretty bad at high ISO
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Scott

Correction the FZ20 got 3 stops more light not 4, still a big
difference.

Scott
doug - 07 Jul 2005 02:11 GMT
>>I notice from the EXIF data that the FZ20 photo was exposed about 4 EV
>>higher then the Canon, the FZ20 sky is blown out the Canon is not, this
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Scott

Prey tell Scott...
How many stops of additional exposure lattitude is claimed to be
available for a 20D by shooting RAW and decoding the image in Photoshop
or similar?

As I understand the banter in these groups; If you shoot RAW you
effectively get exposure latitude which allows you to correct under or
over exposure during decoding of the raw data. If your statement is to
have any merit, you have no exposure lattitude at all with RAW files.
Which is it Scott?

If there is any truth in the fable: "shoot raw and have a two stops of
adjustment up your sleeve", the difference in EI of the 2 cameras should
not matter and should be correctable with Adobe Camera Raw or whatever
decoder you use. In any event the Canon sensor should have captured
data. Unfortunately it didn't capture enough data to carry out any
exposure compensation during decoding. That image is all there is.

The Panasonic has no RAW data capture facilities, and only captured
highly compressed JPG data (expect blown highlights this way) yet still
had all the shadow information in an otherwise blacked out region. The
Canon image should have had clear data where there is none at all.

Douglas
Scott W - 07 Jul 2005 03:11 GMT
> >>I notice from the EXIF data that the FZ20 photo was exposed about 4 EV
> >>higher then the Canon, the FZ20 sky is blown out the Canon is not, this
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Douglas

I can easily shoot 2 stop under and still get a good photo, what is
harder is shooting two stop under and then trying to pull out shadow
detail, as this test did.  That is why it is a pretty good idea to have
reviewer who tests under controlled conditions, so you can get an
apples to apple comparision.

Scott
Stacey - 07 Jul 2005 07:08 GMT
>That is why it is a pretty good idea to have
> reviewer who tests under controlled conditions, so you can get an
> apples to apple comparision.

Don't you mean a reviewer who is paid by Canon so your brand gets a shining
review so you can feel good about your camera purchase?

Signature


 Stacey

Tony Polson - 07 Jul 2005 13:27 GMT
>>That is why it is a pretty good idea to have
>> reviewer who tests under controlled conditions, so you can get an
>> apples to apple comparision.
>
>Don't you mean a reviewer who is paid by Canon so your brand gets a shining
>review so you can feel good about your camera purchase?

That's it, exactly.  

No feeling of "buyer's remorse" means the review was good.
Marek M. - 07 Jul 2005 14:33 GMT
Stacey napisał(a):
> Don't you mean a reviewer who is paid by Canon so your brand gets a shining
> review so you can feel good about your camera purchase?
TROLL WARNING...

pls do not feed him!

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.........Marek Mollin "rogus".........
..http://rogus.atspace.com/da/ad.jpg..
............coming soon...............
..............Pozdrawiam..............

Stacey - 07 Jul 2005 19:10 GMT
> Stacey napisa?(a):
>> Don't you mean a reviewer who is paid by Canon so your brand gets a
>> shining review so you can feel good about your camera purchase?

> TROLL WARNING...

LOL now THAT is funny!

So ANYONE who doesn't bow down and praise the Canon God is a troll? You
really believe all the reviewers are totally unbiased in their reports? I
guess there are still people who are this naive....

Signature


 Stacey

Jeremy Nixon - 07 Jul 2005 21:13 GMT
> So ANYONE who doesn't bow down and praise the Canon God is a troll?

You've been around here long enough to know *that*.  I mean, it's as
self-evident as the indisputable fact that all serious photographers
always shoot everything with super-wide-angle lenses at ISO 1600 or
higher -- or whatever thing it is that Canon does better, I keep
forgetting because it always seems to be something I've never done,
but then, we all know I'm not a serious photographer since we all
know all serious photographers are using a Canon 1Ds2, since nothing
else could ever be adequate.

(Man, the mindless Canon cheerleading squad has reduced my opinion of
Canon about as much as George Preddy has done for Sigma.  It's sad,
really; when I'm out and about, and I see someone with a Canon, my
first thought is, oh look, another equipment collector, I wonder if
he'll come over and start bragging about the size of the sensor in
some other camera of the same brand he'll never actually buy...)

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Jeremy  |  jeremy@exit109.com

Stacey - 08 Jul 2005 00:03 GMT
> (Man, the mindless Canon cheerleading squad has reduced my opinion of
> Canon about as much as George Preddy has done for Sigma.

It's convinced me to never buy one...

Signature


 Stacey

Tony Polson - 08 Jul 2005 11:13 GMT
>> (Man, the mindless Canon cheerleading squad has reduced my opinion of
>> Canon about as much as George Preddy has done for Sigma.
>
>It's convinced me to never buy one...

.. except the EOS 1Ds Mk II, which is stunning.  I rent one now and
again to use for architectural shots with a Super-Angulon perspective
control lens.  I have no other need for a 16.7 MP DSLR, so am unlikely
ever to buy one, but it is truly a wonderful camera.

It's a pity that the Canon consumer DSLRs just don't measure up to the
1Ds Mk II - in any respect whatsoever.  There is no resemblance except
that they use the same lens mount.
Ben Rosengart - 08 Jul 2005 19:11 GMT
> It's a pity that the Canon consumer DSLRs just don't measure up to the
> 1Ds Mk II - in any respect whatsoever.

What do you mean?  Build quality, ergonomics, viewfinder quality,
image quality ... ?

I use a 20D, but I've never gotten to handle a 1D of any flavor.
So I'm genuinely curious.

Signature

Ben Rosengart                                            (212) 741-4400 x215
    Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
    questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
                                            --Josh Micah Marshall

eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 08 Jul 2005 19:54 GMT
> > It's a pity that the Canon consumer DSLRs just don't measure up to the
> > 1Ds Mk II - in any respect whatsoever.
>
> What do you mean?  Build quality, ergonomics, viewfinder quality,
> image quality ... ?

http://groups.google.ca/group/uk.rec.photo.misc/msg/1eff86dc01f826bb?dmode=sourc
e&hl=en


Polson claims to have a cover for "Paris Match", yet oddly has never
identified which issue.

I doubt he has even held a 1Ds2 in his hands.

> I use a 20D, but I've never gotten to handle a 1D of any flavor.
> So I'm genuinely curious.

The viewfinder is _far_ better on my 1D2 than my 10D.  Now the 10D
viewfinder was fairly bad;  you should wander into a store and look
through a 1D viewfinder.  Or then again, maybe not.  ;-)

As nice as the 1D2 viewfinder is, Nikon finders are even better.  Grrr.
Jeremy Nixon - 08 Jul 2005 20:02 GMT
> As nice as the 1D2 viewfinder is, Nikon finders are even better.  Grrr.

Except that the full-frame Canons can (apparently) use pre-existing
focusing screens to get manual focus aids, while no such focusing screens
exist for the Nikons.  Grrr.

Signature

Jeremy  |  jeremy@exit109.com

Tony Polson - 09 Jul 2005 00:05 GMT
>> It's a pity that the Canon consumer DSLRs just don't measure up to the
>> 1Ds Mk II - in any respect whatsoever.
>
>What do you mean?  Build quality, ergonomics, viewfinder quality,
>image quality ... ?

All of the above.  You cannot compare the high end pro models with the
consumer models.

>I use a 20D, but I've never gotten to handle a 1D of any flavor.
>So I'm genuinely curious.

Why not rent one?  You might be seriously impressed.  Alternatively,
you might consider that your 20D is good enough.  

Not everyone needs a 1Ds Mk II.  I need 16.7 MP only occasionally, so
I rent one.  I could not justify the cost of buying one.
Ben Rosengart - 09 Jul 2005 00:16 GMT
>>I use a 20D, but I've never gotten to handle a 1D of any flavor.
>>So I'm genuinely curious.
>
> Why not rent one?  You might be seriously impressed.

You answered your own question there.  :-)

Signature

Ben Rosengart                                            (212) 741-4400 x215
    Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
    questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
                                            --Josh Micah Marshall

Scott W - 09 Jul 2005 02:58 GMT
> >> It's a pity that the Canon consumer DSLRs just don't measure up to the
> >> 1Ds Mk II - in any respect whatsoever.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Not everyone needs a 1Ds Mk II.  I need 16.7 MP only occasionally, so
> I rent one.  I could not justify the cost of buying one.

There is no question that the 1Ds Mark II is an impressive camera, when
the 1Ds was first out I said that  I would happily buy one for $8000,
if digital cameras were not going to keep improving and getting
cheaper, the same now is true for the 1Ds Mark II.  I don't need the
Mark II, but it sure would be fun to have, in time much of what is in
it will come down to the consumer DSLRs, I am hoping including the
viewfinder. There will always be camera that is better then the one I
have, this does not reduce the joy I get from using my camera in the
least.  

BTW I don't believe that is anywhere here to rent one.

Scott
Skip M - 09 Jul 2005 16:04 GMT
>> Why not rent one?  You might be seriously impressed.  Alternatively,
>> you might consider that your 20D is good enough.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Scott

Where is "here?"  Calumet Photo has them to rent, $175 per day...

Signature

Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

RichA - 08 Jul 2005 21:58 GMT
>>> (Man, the mindless Canon cheerleading squad has reduced my opinion of
>>> Canon about as much as George Preddy has done for Sigma.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>1Ds Mk II - in any respect whatsoever.  There is no resemblance except
>that they use the same lens mount.

For $8000 versus $1500 for the 20D, it's not surprise.  Doubling that
$8000 will buy you an entry-level automobile.  
Do you find you need 16.7 MP for architectural shots?  Do you end up
printing them at a really large size or is it to isolate very small
details on the buildings?
-Rich
John McWilliams - 08 Jul 2005 16:10 GMT
>>(Man, the mindless Canon cheerleading squad has reduced my opinion of
>>Canon about as much as George Preddy has done for Sigma.
>
> It's convinced me to never buy one...

Mindless cheerleading is only slightly less obnoxious than mindless
bashing.

Signature

John McWilliams

Don Stauffer - 09 Jul 2005 16:18 GMT
Some of this thread reminds me of the statement made by RCA's grand old
man, the guru of photo-electric tubes, Otto Schade.  This was sometime
after people had come up with the concept of photon noise.

Schade said, "I've never seen a noisy photon!"  Of course, he had a
specific technical objection to the difference between photon and
electron shot noise, but the statement has a cleaver gottcha whether one
agreed with Schade or not.
Ben Rosengart - 10 Jul 2005 06:35 GMT
["Followup-To:" header set to rec.photo.digital.slr-systems.]
> Some of this thread reminds me of the statement made by RCA's grand old
> man, the guru of photo-electric tubes, Otto Schade.  This was sometime
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> electron shot noise, but the statement has a cleaver gottcha whether one
> agreed with Schade or not.

Can you expand on that a little?  I'm not clear what you're getting
at, but it sounds interesting.

Signature

Ben Rosengart                                            (212) 741-4400 x215
    Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
    questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
                                            --Josh Micah Marshall

JPS@no.komm - 09 Jul 2005 04:24 GMT
>Don't you mean a reviewer who is paid by Canon so your brand gets a shining
>review so you can feel good about your camera purchase?

There was nothing biased towards Canon in his response.  You are a
genuine a.shole.

He is asking for a fair comparison; same f-stop; same shutter speed;
same subject and lighting.  He didn't seem to be afraid of the results.
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  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Steven M. Scharf - 09 Jul 2005 17:08 GMT
>>Don't you mean a reviewer who is paid by Canon so your brand gets a shining
>>review so you can feel good about your camera purchase?
>
> There was nothing biased towards Canon in his response.  You are a
> genuine a.shole.

When someone sinks to a claim about a biased review, from sites that
have a legacy of accurate reviews, you know that they have lost the
argument and are truly desperate.

I added a section on biased versus unbiased reviews to my site a while
back, so visitors could know which sites to take with many grains of
salt, and which to pretty much believe:

Unbiased Digital Camera Reviews & Information
---------------------------------------------
http://stevesdigicams.com
http://dpreview.com
http://www.hardwarezone.com
http://www.dcresource.com
http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/
http://digitalcamerashortlist.com
http://digitalslrinfo.com
http://www.imaging-resource.com
http://www.bythom.com

Biased Digital Camera Reviews & Information
-------------------------------------------
http://www.naturfotograf.com/index2.html
http://www.moosepeterson.com/digitaldarkroom/index.html
http://kenrockwell.com
http://www.digitalreview.ca/

What is interesting to note is that most of the very biased sites are
biased towards Nikon! I think that the Canon professionals have no need
to constantly be defending their equipment.
Ryadia - 09 Jul 2005 22:33 GMT
>>> Don't you mean a reviewer who is paid by Canon so your brand gets a
>>> shining
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> have a legacy of accurate reviews, you know that they have lost the
> argument and are truly desperate.

Steven...
As a former magazine publisher I can tell you absolutely that articles,
for magazine or Internet publication can never be free of bias just as
long as there is an advertisement to be sold or a need to continue the
flow of goods for review or undeclared "gifts" of money and goods in the
name of sponsorship.

It may surprise you do hear that none of these sites you list could
exist in any usable way without money. Publishers get money either from
selling advertising or being given money by corporations to publish what
the corporation wants without it seeming to come from the corporation's
press room. It's called sponsorship. Worse than this are the sites that
exist because someone shells out the cash so they can go on a crusade.

None of the sites you list could have access to pre release cameras or
"leaked" information about new models or for that matter new model
cameras to "test" if they published unfavourable reviews about the
products they rely on for their very existence.

Stacey is a little more cynical than me in her condemnation of reviews
but it is true that those sites do not exist to provide you or anyone
else with information, accurate or otherwise. They exist to make money
for the owners.

One day someone could sue dpreview for publishing false and misleading
information which results in them buying entirely the wrong camera,
based on that information. The publishers of that site know this and
will never produce a review which materially favours any particular
brand unless they get an incentive to do it.

I just bought a new Nikon DX2 and the associated lenses to equal my
Canon gear in a lead up to changing back to Nikon and I can tell you
now, the only significant difference between the DX2 and my 1d MkII is
the name on the camera and better quality lenses.

I also own an aging SD9 Sigma and it too is a good camera, despite the
w.nkers here blasting it but never owning one. This camera is in some
ways better than both my 20Ds but cannot equal the features of a 20D.

Nothing wrong with Sigma images and when it was released, it could go
head to head with a 10D for image quality. This Sigma is the only DSLR
camera I have bought in three years which never fails to work. It has
saved the day at 2 weddings and last year's Santa shoot when the Canon's
overheated or locked up and couldn't be revived. Not bad for a camera
the deciples of EOS claim is crap. I'll never part with it, unlike the
Canon gear which is about to get sold.

No where do I see examples of really bad behaviour from the Canon
sensors but as the owner of three Canon DSLRs I have plenty of examples
from 10D, 20D and 1D images which are digital exclusive disasters. All
part of discovering the limitations of these cameras... So why don't the
reviewers report on those limitations?

Because it's not in their best interest to. That task is left to
students and controversial site owners. And anyway... Not many people
will use their cameras in extremes of heat and light and when they do,
will probably just delete the image as a dud without knowing it was only
a dud because of design inadequacies of the camera.

Silly me. I bought a 20D, dual battery grip (no longer called the "Pro
Grip") and the next day set the camera up to shoot Santa pics. Canon
hadn't had enough Speedlights to go around so I figured I'd use the
built in flash until the other camera and speedlights arrived.

That's when limit number one was discovered. Maximum "internal"
operating temperature of the camera is reached before a CFC is filled
when the ambient temperature is 38C or higher ...and the SD9 had to be
unpacked to complete the shoot. When the second camera arrived it shot
29 frames and err 99. Swap the batteries and start again. At frame 398
it died, never to be graced with life again.

"Oh no, these camera are really just high end consumer cameras. If you
want to use one all day long every day, you really need this (as he
opens the display case) 1d MkII which really is a professional camera".

More money than sense, I shelled out all the profit I was about to make
at Christmas and bought the thing. What ever possessed me to buy another
20D after this is still something I need to see a therapist about.

To it's credit, the 1D has been relatively trouble free but many of the
image flaws the 20Ds have are still evident (at a lower grade) so I've
come to the conclusion it's the sensor design, not so much the camera
but as the two are inseparable and I am less than impressed with Canon's
fabled "L" series barrel distortion and other lens flaws, it's get
something better time! What better than the best?

Douglas
Randall Ainsworth - 10 Jul 2005 00:18 GMT
> I also own an aging SD9 Sigma and it too is a good camera, despite the
> w.nkers here blasting it but never owning one. This camera is in some
> ways better than both my 20Ds but cannot equal the features of a 20D.

Put down the crack pipe.

> Nothing wrong with Sigma images and when it was released, it could go
> head to head with a 10D for image quality. This Sigma is the only DSLR
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the deciples of EOS claim is crap. I'll never part with it, unlike the
> Canon gear which is about to get sold.

Anti-Sigma w.nker here...there is no way you can compare that crappy
Sigma to anything except another 3.42MP kiddie toy.
JPS@no.komm - 10 Jul 2005 03:31 GMT
>I also own an aging SD9 Sigma and it too is a good camera, despite the
>w.nkers here blasting it but never owning one.

You don't have to own one to see the images, and see their artifacts.
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  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Chris Brown - 10 Jul 2005 11:29 GMT
>>I also own an aging SD9 Sigma and it too is a good camera, despite the
>>w.nkers here blasting it but never owning one.
>
>You don't have to own one to see the images, and see their artifacts.

...or the cheese-people portraits (which, I guess, might not be a problem if
one is red green colour blind).
JPS@no.komm - 09 Jul 2005 04:20 GMT
>The Panasonic has no RAW data capture facilities, and only captured
>highly compressed JPG data (expect blown highlights this way) yet still
>had all the shadow information in an otherwise blacked out region.

With the same absolute exposure on the sensor?
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  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Ryadia - 09 Jul 2005 09:38 GMT
>>The Panasonic has no RAW data capture facilities, and only captured
>>highly compressed JPG data (expect blown highlights this way) yet still
>>had all the shadow information in an otherwise blacked out region.
>
> With the same absolute exposure on the sensor?

Ahrrr JPS...
Don't you know that two different size sensors with different optics on
the camera and a different meter can never produce the exact same
exposure on the sensor for a given subject?

Douglas
JPS@no.komm - 09 Jul 2005 14:01 GMT

>>>The Panasonic has no RAW data capture facilities, and only captured
>>>highly compressed JPG data (expect blown highlights this way) yet still
>>>had all the shadow information in an otherwise blacked out region.

>> With the same absolute exposure on the sensor?

>Ahrrr JPS...
>Don't you know that two different size sensors with different optics on
>the camera and a different meter can never produce the exact same
>exposure on the sensor for a given subject?

I said "absolute exposure", which has absolutely *NOTHING* to do with
using the camera's metering.  Two cameras pointed at the same subject in
the same lighting; same f-stop, same shutter speed (although these could
vary and still have the same exposure), and the same ISO setting.  That
is how you compare sensitivities; not by setting the cameras to the same
ISO settings and letting them do their thing.
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  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Ryadia - 09 Jul 2005 22:40 GMT
> In message <42cf8cf3$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>,

> I said "absolute exposure", which has absolutely *NOTHING* to do with
> using the camera's metering.  Two cameras pointed at the same subject in
> the same lighting; same f-stop, same shutter speed (although these could
> vary and still have the same exposure), and the same ISO setting.  That
> is how you compare sensitivities; not by setting the cameras to the same
> ISO settings and letting them do their thing.

That's a contradiction.
Either you want the same metering or you want the same exposure on the
sensor. Which is it? My "test" if you want to call it that (not my
description incidently) was to use two cameras and let each do their own
thing. The Canon choose it's value based on my selection of aperture and
ISO. The Panasonic choose it's value based entirely on it's inbuilt program.

Since then I have other shots which confirm what the original post
suggested. Tell me which it is you want to see from your own confusing
options - give me one or the other, and I'll do it.

Douglas
eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 07 Jul 2005 01:01 GMT
Ryadia babbles like a moron:

> Maybe I've lost the plot here but I'd have thought a 20D (read 1D II as
> well) would be better at recording detail under adverse lighting
> conditions than a lowly P&S camera like the Olympus C760 or Panasonic
> FZ20. Surprise, surprise! http://www.technoaussie.com/hmm-detail.htm

Absolutely no way to reproduce any of their results.  They don't even
provide their raw images for independent analysis.  Even worse, the
exposure data at that page is:

 FZ20: ISO 200 f/2.8 @ 0.17s
 20D:  ISO 400 f/8   @ 0.20s

Equivalent 20D exposure for ISO 200:

 20D: ISO 200 f/5.6 @ 0.20s

ie, the FZ20 was given two stops more light.  When the author(s)
thereafter write that "these P&S cameras are pulling light from
nowhere" (or somesuch) they are clearly joking.
TAFKAB - 07 Jul 2005 01:38 GMT
Holy Crap! This is some of the funniest stuff I've seen in a long while! A
camera comparison that provides a direct comparison using different ISOs,
different exposure values, and different image capture variables.
Surprisingly, the results from each camera are, well, different.

Funny, funny sh.t.

> So... You all think the 20D is a low noise camera, do you?
Steven M. Scharf - 07 Jul 2005 05:04 GMT
> Holy Crap! This is some of the funniest stuff I've seen in a long while! A
> camera comparison that provides a direct comparison using different ISOs,
> different exposure values, and different image capture variables.
> Surprisingly, the results from each camera are, well, different.
>
> Funny, funny sh.t.

There are similar examples of such stupidity in almost every debate on
any subject you can think of. Medical studies are famous for such crap.
I.e., there was one medical study that concluded that caffeine caused
miscarriages, then when on to state "the women who had (miscarriages)
were significantly older than the control subjects, were more likely to
have been born outside the Nordic countries...and were more likely to
have had previous pregnancies and previous (miscarriages)." These four
huge differences made the entire study completely bogus, but the authors
tried to include the differences in the control groups as a mere footnote.

Mercifully, the page with the stupidity about noisy sensors has been
taken down. I guess that the author was pretty embarassed once the
errors were pointed out.
TAFKAB - 07 Jul 2005 14:21 GMT
> There are similar examples of such stupidity in almost every debate on any
> subject you can think of. Medical studies are famous for such crap. I.e.,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> down. I guess that the author was pretty embarassed once the errors were
> pointed out.

Can't blame him. Got to wonder just what he was thinking when a pack of
morons like us can tear it to shreds so quickly.
Scharf-DCA - 07 Jul 2005 15:51 GMT
>Can't blame him. Got to wonder just what he was thinking
> when a pack of morons like us can tear it to shreds so quickly.

Yet you have uninformed people, like the original poster, that do not
have the critical thinking skills to understand bogus stuff like this.
How many other people read a website like that and actually believe it?
TAFKAB - 07 Jul 2005 17:32 GMT
>>Can't blame him. Got to wonder just what he was thinking
>> when a pack of morons like us can tear it to shreds so quickly.
>
> Yet you have uninformed people, like the original poster, that do not
> have the critical thinking skills to understand bogus stuff like this.
> How many other people read a website like that and actually believe it?

Tons. And you can add sites like CNN, ABC News, etc to the list. Trouble is,
there's so many variables it's not so easy to spot the BS sometimes.

Well,  I'm off to complete my own test comparing scanned 6x7 chromes with
the 20D. I'll post the results in the near future. In the meantime, I'll
continue to repeat the age-old mantra: "when data does not conform to
theory, it must be disposed of."
Tony Polson - 07 Jul 2005 18:50 GMT
>>Can't blame him. Got to wonder just what he was thinking
>> when a pack of morons like us can tear it to shreds so quickly.
>
>Yet you have uninformed people, like the original poster, that do not
>have the critical thinking skills to understand bogus stuff like this.
>How many other people read a website like that and actually believe it?

There must be some people who read *your*
DSLR website and actually believe it.  

God help them.
William Graham - 07 Jul 2005 23:51 GMT
>> There are similar examples of such stupidity in almost every debate on
>> any subject you can think of. Medical studies are famous for such crap.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> tried to include the differences in the control groups as a mere
>> footnote.

This reminds me of the "medical statistic" that over 60,000 people die from
second hand cigarette smoke every year. This ridiculous (and bogus) figure
used to be 50,000. It's interesting that during the years that cigarette
usage in this country went down by 20%, the number of deaths from second
hand smoke went up by the same percentage.....They have been trapped into
proving the idiocy of their own figures by the figures themselves! They are
not even good liars........
frederick - 08 Jul 2005 00:18 GMT
> This reminds me of the "medical statistic" that over 60,000 people die from
> second hand cigarette smoke every year. This ridiculous (and bogus) figure
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> proving the idiocy of their own figures by the figures themselves! They are
> not even good liars........

They did the same in NZ.
If you wan't a more accurate assessment of the expected death rates from
second hand smoke, than go to the US EPA site. (and the EPA tend not to
underestimate environmental risks in comparison to other authorities -
they cop a lot of flack for being sensationalist)
Many many more people die from lung cancer in the USA from exposure to
radon gas in their homes than from any disease caused by second hand smoke.
It is poor science used for the purpose of social engineering - but that
is not to say that the intent of the social engineering is not good.
William Graham - 08 Jul 2005 02:47 GMT
>> This reminds me of the "medical statistic" that over 60,000 people die
>> from second hand cigarette smoke every year. This ridiculous (and bogus)
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> It is poor science used for the purpose of social engineering - but that
> is not to say that the intent of the social engineering is not good.

Yes. The intent is good. I quit smoking after 30 years in 1982. But it
annoys me that they lie so blatantly and stupidly. For one thing, the
effects of second hand smoke cannot even be guessed at, much less accurately
determined. For a while they attributed crib deaths to it, as well. How many
young couples do you know who, after meeting and marrying and having a baby,
suddenly started to smoke cigarettes as soon as they got home from the
hospital? Most kids who experience crib death would be dying from first hand
smoke, not second hand, even if smoking had anything to do with their deaths
at all.
   What bothers me about these bogus, "statistics" is that it teaches
people to believe that you can know everything just by listening to these
whacko's on TV. Most of the stuff they put out is unknowable. Or, would
require a greater than 10 year captive population to find out. Even
physicians who should know better are tricked by this stuff. They gave a
bunch of people oat bran to eat for breakfast, and found out that their
cholesterol level dropped. It dropped, because after eating a bowl of oat
bran, they were too sick to eat the normal bacon & eggs breakfast that they
normally ate. Naturally it dropped, but it wasn't from the oat bran. It was
from not eating bacon & eggs. I still hear to this day (10 years later) that
oat bran reduces your cholesterol. Even my doctor tells me this. One should
always ask themselves when they hear statistics like these, "How would I go
about finding that out?" "Could I find something like this out with a
questionnaire, and, if so, how accurate would that be?" "What questions
should I ask on the questionnaire?" "Would people lie to look good?" You'd
think that highly trained and very well paid physicians would get their
information from medical journals, and not from the TV while they eat their
breakfast in the morning. Or, perhaps the medical journals are just as bad
as the TV? I don't think I really want to know.......

Steven M. Scharf - 09 Jul 2005 17:33 GMT
> Yes. The intent is good. I quit smoking after 30 years in 1982. But it
> annoys me that they lie so blatantly and stupidly.

Lying for social engineering has a long history in the U.S., from speed
limit laws, to bicycle helmet laws, to the made-up statistics on
second-hand smoke.
William Graham - 10 Jul 2005 06:40 GMT
>> Yes. The intent is good. I quit smoking after 30 years in 1982. But it
>> annoys me that they lie so blatantly and stupidly.
>
> Lying for social engineering has a long history in the U.S., from speed
> limit laws, to bicycle helmet laws, to the made-up statistics on
> second-hand smoke.

It just annoys the hell out of me that they treat the general population so
stupidly. What is wrong with telling the truth? Obviously cigarette smoking
is very bad for you. If nothing else, the carbon monoxide in the smoke kills
your brain cells, and brings on premature senility....That alone should, (if
properly advertised) be able to convince teenagers to not smoke....I could
design a series of ads that would ridicule the smoking teenager to the point
that his peers would laugh out loud in his/her face........
frederick - 10 Jul 2005 06:48 GMT
>>>Yes. The intent is good. I quit smoking after 30 years in 1982. But it
>>>annoys me that they lie so blatantly and stupidly.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> design a series of ads that would ridicule the smoking teenager to the point
> that his peers would laugh out loud in his/her face........

*and brings on premature senility*

I understand that at least one serious medical study has shown that
smokers are significantly less likely to suffer from Alzheimers.
That is not to say that smoking protects an individual from alzheimers.
 Maybe people with alzheimers are just prone to give up smoking -
'cause they keep forgetting where they leave their cigarettes...
Such are statistics.
:-)
William Graham - 10 Jul 2005 07:25 GMT
>>>>Yes. The intent is good. I quit smoking after 30 years in 1982. But it
>>>>annoys me that they lie so blatantly and stupidly.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Such are statistics.
> :-)

Well, it also decreases the sexual response....Now, THAT ought to get their
attention.........
Tony Parkinson - 10 Jul 2005 08:02 GMT
> I understand that at least one serious medical study has shown that
> smokers are significantly less likely to suffer from Alzheimers.

Maybe that's because they die of lung cancer before the onset of Alzheimer's
;^)
Mark² - 12 Jul 2005 23:15 GMT
> *and brings on premature senility*
>
> I understand that at least one serious medical study has shown that
> smokers are significantly less likely to suffer from Alzheimers.

Has it occurred to you that this may be due to the fact that smokers...as a
group...die younger than non-smokers, and might, as a result, avoid the
disease?
Chris Brown - 10 Jul 2005 12:30 GMT
>stupidly. What is wrong with telling the truth? Obviously cigarette smoking
>is very bad for you. If nothing else, the carbon monoxide in the smoke kills
>your brain cells, and brings on premature senility....That alone should, (if
>properly advertised) be able to convince teenagers to not smoke....

Teenagers think they're immortal - telling them something is unhelathy for
them, no matter how you do it, won't work.

>I could
>design a series of ads that would ridicule the smoking teenager to the point
>that his peers would laugh out loud in his/her face........

This is what's currently happening in the UK - there are ads on TV at
present showing, amongst other things:

- Two fingers holding a cigarette, in such a way as to strongly suggest
  that the fingers are legs, and the cigarette is a penis. In the ad, it
  explains that smoking causes fatty deposits to build up in the arteries,
  and this often leads to impotence in men. At the end of the explanation,
  a load of ash falls off the cigarette, leaving it looking short and limp.

- A nightclub scene, where a guy sees a good looking girl. He plucks up the
  courage to go over and talk to her, and they kiss. At which point, he
  looks like he's just sucked a lemon, and leaves, pointing to his beer in
  an obvious attempt to make an excuse (as in, 'I just need to go and top
  this up'), leaving the girl looking bewildered, as the text, "If you
  smoke, you stink" appears on screen.

I also understand there are other ones in the same series, but I don't watch
much commercial TV, so I haven't seen them yet.
William Graham - 10 Jul 2005 23:38 GMT
>>stupidly. What is wrong with telling the truth? Obviously cigarette
>>smoking
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> watch
> much commercial TV, so I haven't seen them yet.

Sounds like they are way ahead of us.....Madison Avenue can't seem to come
up with anything nearly that cleaver. Some of the ads even make me want to
start smoking again!
Ben Rosengart - 11 Jul 2005 05:28 GMT
> Sounds like they are way ahead of us.....Madison Avenue can't seem to come
> up with anything nearly that cleaver. Some of the ads even make me want to
> start smoking again!

A lot of anti-smoking ads are paid for by big tobacco companies.
They agreed to do it as part of a court settlement.  Some of the
ads definitely seem a little ambivalent to me.  I saw one in a
magazine whose message was (paraphrasing, this isn't a direct quote),
"Don't smoke, kids, that's only for adults!"  Yyyyyeah, that'll stop
a lot of kids from smoking, right.

Signature

Ben Rosengart                                            (212) 741-4400 x215
    Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
    questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
                                            --Josh Micah Marshall

Marc Sabatella - 08 Jul 2005 08:56 GMT
"William Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:cvqdnYaIeN5QLFDfRVn-

> This reminds me of the "medical statistic" that over 60,000 people die from
> second hand cigarette smoke every year. This ridiculous (and bogus) figure
> used to be 50,000. It's interesting that during the years that cigarette
> usage in this country went down by 20%, the number of deaths from second
> hand smoke went up by the same percentage

There is no inconcistency here - it could simply be a matter of getting
better at identifying this particualr cause of death.  In any case, if
you want to be taken seriously in your claim that the figures are
"bogus", it would behoove you to provide have evidence at least as
compelling.  Pointing out non-existent inconsistencies doesn't count.

Not that this has any relevance to the discussion, of course.

--------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
William Graham - 08 Jul 2005 09:43 GMT
> "William Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:cvqdnYaIeN5QLFDfRVn-
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> There is no inconcistency here - it could simply be a matter of getting
> better at identifying this particualr cause of death.

Oh, I see.....There's nothing inconsistent, we were just wrong then, but you
should believe us now.......Are you kidding, or what?
   If you can tell me exactly how you (or they) could possibly know how
many deaths could be attributed to "second hand smoke", that would go a long
way toward getting me into your fold. I mean, just who would you study, and
how would you study them? How would you tell exactly, or even approximately,
just how much "second hand smoke" any particular subject was subjected to,
and for how long? (Much less a whole population)
    If I had to come up with such a statistic, here is how I would go about
it. First off, I would find out how many people die from first hand smoke.
Then I would translate the percentage of smoke they inhale per day into
man-minutes (or seconds) of life loss. Then I would measure the percentage
of smoke in an average room containing smokers, and assume some percentage
of non-smokers time (on the average) that such people spend in those kinds
of rooms. Then I would project this time into a percentage of smoke in the
average non-smokers breath. and assume that they will suffer that percentage
of life loss that smokers experience in the before mentioned study, and that
would be the best possible statistic I could get. IOW, (for example) If the
average smoker loses one minute of life for every 100,000 smoke particles he
breathes in, then I would assume that non-smokers lose the same amount of
life for every 100,000 smoke particles that they breathe in too, and that
would be the basis of my figure. Not accurate? - Of course not, but it's a
hell of a lot better than what they did do, which was just hazard a wild a.s 
guess...........The point is creditability. They have none with me. All
their dumb a.s statistics do is dumb down a population of people who have
already been dumbed down by the TV over my lifetime by an incredible amount.
And it shows, too. Just watch Jay Leno's show for a few weeks.....:^)
Frank ess - 08 Jul 2005 15:13 GMT
<At the end of yet another hysterical, ageing-induced rant>

> All their dumb a.s
> statistics do is dumb down a population of people who have already
> been dumbed down by the TV over my lifetime by an incredible amount.
> And it shows, too. Just watch Jay Leno's show for a few
> weeks.....:^)

Just watch the folks who watch Jay Leno ...

Signature

Frank ess

Marc Sabatella - 08 Jul 2005 20:02 GMT
> > There is no inconcistency here - it could simply be a matter of getting
> > better at identifying this particualr cause of death.
>
> Oh, I see.....There's nothing inconsistent, we were just wrong then, but you
> should believe us now.......Are you kidding, or what?

Of course not.  With increased awareness of an issue, more and more of
the cases will get reported as such - it's only natural.  For example,
lots of people died of AIDS before it was identified as a distinct
syndome, so early diagnosis and reporting was sketchy.  We simply had no
way of knowing how many people *for sure* died of it.  But we certainly
had some documented cases, and statistical analysis is a pretty
well-understood discipline, so it was possible to put some numbers
together.  As diagnosis and reporting improved, we had more data to work
with, and the numbers became more accurate.  So there were fluctuations
in the early numbers, although these may have been masked by the fact
that the disease was quite new and really was become more prevalent.

In any case, the point being that although there is no reason to put
stock in the *specific* numbers offered, the fact that they varey in no
way means the effect isn't real.  It's perfectly normal and to be
expected that a real phenomenon that isn't well understood yet would
generate numbers that fluctuate.  The fluctuation doesn't demonstrate
the effect doesn't exist, it just demonstrates we don't understand it
well enough to measure it accurately yet.  So no, I am not trying to
tell you that 50,000 is the correct number, or 60,000.  It could be
28,856, or it could be 93,485 for all we know right now.  But the fact
that the estimate changed from 50,000 to 60,000 (and I'm taking your
word for it here; I hadn't seen the specific studies you are referring
to) does *not* prove the number is 0, which is what you were implying.

>     If you can tell me exactly how you (or they) could possibly know how
> many deaths could be attributed to "second hand smoke", that would go a long
> way toward getting me into your fold.

The counting at this stage is almost certainly still largely statistical
based on sketchy available data, just as with AIDS was in the beginning.
We can look at approximately how many cases from lung cancer, emphysema,
and other such disaease we see in populations that are not exposed to
much second hand, and compare it to the number of such cases among
people who *are* exposed to a lot of it.  We can do this in controlled
studies or attempt to extrapolate it from the cases that arise in the
population at large.

>  I mean, just who would you study, and
> how would you study them? How would you tell exactly, or even approximately,
> just how much "second hand smoke" any particular subject was subjected to,
> and for how long?

In a controlled study, you'd specifically choose subjects at the
extremes - people who don't have any family members who smoke or work in
environments that permit smoking, versus people who lived and work in
environments where there are smokers.  In an attempt to extrapolate the
data cases that have already occured in the population at large, you'd
want to identify cases that are at the extremes, and for ones where the
determination is unclear, either don't use that data at all, or weight
it accordingly.

Yes, I realize this is not an exact process - while we can certainly
count the number of people who die from any given disease, we are not
always sure yet about the cause of the disease.  Thus, the data will
fluctuate.  The more data we collect, the more reliable it will become.
It's only natural.

>      If I had to come up with such a statistic, here is how I would go about
> it. First off, I would find out how many people die from first hand smoke.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of life loss that smokers experience in the before mentioned study, and that
> would be the best possible statistic I could get.

Actually, I don't think it wouldn't be nearly as good as the types of
statistics I described.  You are assuming some sort of linear
relationship between amount of smoke inhalation and "man-minutes of life
loss".  We don't know this is true - that's why we want to measure the
*actual* effects, not just asssume that.  It may well turn out that the
effect of more smoke is *more* than linear, or it might turn out to be
*less*.  More likely, it's a fairly complex curve.  And the only way to
determine it is to look at actual cases that develop and compare
numbers.

> Of course not, but it's a
> hell of a lot better than what they did do, which was just hazard a wild a.s
> guess

Which study have you read that did just this rather than the sorts of
things I described?  I would agree that any study that just guessed with
no data has no merit.

--------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
William Graham - 08 Jul 2005 21:12 GMT
>> > There is no inconcistency here - it could simply be a matter of
> getting
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> in the early numbers, although these may have been masked by the fact
> that the disease was quite new and really was become more prevalent.

I remember when they haden't identified it as one disease. They were
wondering why there were an increasing number of cases of some kind of skin
cancer that was heretofore peculiar to old Italian men.....(I forget it's
name....Something like Sarcaphys syndrome) Turns out that the reduced immune
systems of aids patients was allowing this disease to take hold......

> In any case, the point being that although there is no reason to put
> stock in the *specific* numbers offered, the fact that they varey in no
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> word for it here; I hadn't seen the specific studies you are referring
> to) does *not* prove the number is 0, which is what you were implying.

No, I don't think the number is zero, but my common sense tells me that the
number is less than 10% of the 60,000 they say it is, just based on the
percentage of smoke particles breathed in by non-smokers vs. the amount
breathed in by smokers, plus the death statistics of the smokers. My figures
come from the ads the American Cancer Society puts out on late night radio.
(where they probably don't have to pay for them) For several years it was
50,000 people a year, and several months ago it suddenly jumped to 60,000.
They didn't say, "We were wrong before, but now newer techniques have shown
us....." They just quietly slipped in 60,000 instead of the previous 50,000.
In any case, I have talked with many intelligent people (I worked in a place
heavy with PhD's in physics) who agree that the 50,000 figure was way
overinflated. Of course, they too were only working on their common sense,
since the real figures are impossible to get.

>>     If you can tell me exactly how you (or they) could possibly know
> how
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
> things I described?  I would agree that any study that just guessed with
> no data has no merit.

Actually, we are never going to be able to resolve this, since it is
impossible for me to prove a negative, and being able to prove that the
number is less is like being able to prove that Saddam didn't have any
WMD's.
   But my common sense tells me that the number 50,000 is very
overinflated. My guess is less than 10% of that. Ie: the number of people
who die every year in the US due to second hand smoke numbers less than
5,000. Now, there are many factors to consider other than just lung cancer
and heart disease. There is a lot of carbon monoxide in cigarette smoke, and
this kills brain cells, and brings on early senility. (I have been accused
many times from suffering from this) Also, you can drop a lit cigarette in
your lap while driving, and run off the cliff. - Also consider the fact that
smokers too, suffer from second hand smoke, so there is not a clear
separation between the two groups.
   I think that a lot could be learned by studying smaller populations.
Consider studying the difference in death rates between non-smoking (and
drinking) bartenders vs. non-smoking ice cream store clerks. Both doing
about the same thing, but one subjected to a lot more second hand smoke than
the other.
   In any case, I distrust any statistics that do not come with an
information sheet that explains exactly how they were obtained. Call me a
skeptic, if you will, but I have been duped far too many times in my life by
the medical profession to believe anything they say anymore without getting
the raw data to inspect for myself.

> --------------
> Marc Sabatella
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Music, art, & educational materials:
> http://www.outsideshore.com/
Marc Sabatella - 10 Jul 2005 02:07 GMT
> No, I don't think the number is zero, but my common sense tells me that the
> number is less than 10% of the 60,000 they say it is, just based on the
> percentage of smoke particles breathed in by non-smokers vs. the amount
> breathed in by smokers, plus the death statistics of the smokers.

For the sake of comparison, what are the figures for the latter?

> My figures
> come from the ads the American Cancer Society puts out on late night radio.
> (where they probably don't have to pay for them) For several years it was
> 50,000 people a year, and several months ago it suddenly jumped to 60,000.
> They didn't say, "We were wrong before, but now newer techniques have shown
> us....."

No one would do this in an ad.  But presumably the studies on which they
based their ad would have discussed it.

> Of course, they too were only working on their common sense,
> since the real figures are impossible to get.

Impossible?  Are there not published studies?

> Actually, we are never going to be able to resolve this, since it is
> impossible for me to prove a negative

True, although I'm not really asking you *prove* the number is smaller -
just give me some reason why I should doubt the figure the studies have
come up with.  You allude to one, in mentioning the death statistics for
smokers and number of smoke particles breathed by smokers and
non-smokers.  While this won't prove anything, it would at least give me
a frame of reference for understanding why you are accusing the people
who published a study you've never read of lying.

>     In any case, I distrust any statistics that do not come with an
> information sheet that explains exactly how they were obtained.

Makes sense.  I do the same.  But I still don't generally  go around
calling the people who put forward the statistics "liars" without having
done at least some homework.

--------------
Marc Sabatella
marc@outsideshore.com

The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
William Graham - 10 Jul 2005 06:30 GMT
>> No, I don't think the number is zero, but my common sense tells me
> that the
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> calling the people who put forward the statistics "liars" without having
> done at least some homework.

Sure. -  There are roughly 431,000 tobacco related deaths per year in this
country.......I just don't believe that over 11% of them are from "second
hand smoke".....I can't prove it, but my common sense tells me that a
non-smoker doesn't inhale even 1% as much tobacco smoke as a smoker. (I
smoked for 29 years, so my guess is about as good as anybody's) I would
guess that the number of deaths due to second hand smoke is less than 5,000
per year.....Or, at least, I wouldn't question a figure in that ball
park.......
Frank ess - 10 Jul 2005 07:37 GMT
>>> No, I don't think the number is zero, but my common sense tells me
>> that the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> amount
>>> breathed in by smokers, plus the death statistics of the smokers.

<snip>

>> Makes sense.  I do the same.  But I still don't generally  go
>> around
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> second hand smoke is less than 5,000 per year.....Or, at least, I
> wouldn't question a figure in that ball park.......

Way I understand it, the lethal smoke is more likely "sidestream
smoke" from burning cigarettes, smoke that a smoker foists on
neighbors without the courtesy of filtering it through the smoker's
lungs and upper respiratory system. Such smoke is more laden with
carcinogens, and because of the conditions it burns in, even more
dangerous than the smoke inhaled by a smoker, which latter is at least
filtered by the length of a cigarette, and a filter, if such is the
smoker's choice.

Your guess is not more respectable, nor is your judgement, because of
29 years as a smoker or your willingness to demonstrate a marked lack
of sense. Your guesses and questions are very like the beliefs of the
jihadist muslims you so rightly denigrate: nonsense based on faith: in
neither case is the product justified by either facts or reason.

My guess is: you can't appreciate the spectacle you make of yourself.
Please relax and avoid a seizure or heart attack. You will likely find
yourself in the same sinking boat as Doug-The-Apoplectic-Aussie.

Very sincerely,

Signature

Frank ess

William Graham - 10 Jul 2005 07:56 GMT
>>>> No, I don't think the number is zero, but my common sense tells me
>>> that the
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> by a smoker, which latter is at least filtered by the length of a
> cigarette, and a filter, if such is the smoker's choice.

Ignoring your rudeness, I must point out that the smokers themselves are
also subject to this, "second hand smoke", since they do not stop breathing
when they put their cigarettes in the ashtrey.
   While the fact that I smoked for 29 years does not endow me with any
extra brilliance, it does give me the experience to judge approximately what
percentage of smokers' smoke is likely to be inhaled by second hand
smokers.....I will also point out that there are a number of Nobel prize
winners who have smoked. - Some of them for more than 29 years.....I used to
know one who borrowed a cigarette from me almost every weekday morning for a
couple of years. The fact that people who know better still smoke, is only
evidence of the terrible habit forming hold that tobacco is capable of
having on one. If you are tobacco free, then I commend you, but don't think
that this makes you some kind of a genius. Mostly, it just makes you very
lucky........
RichA - 08 Jul 2005 21:52 GMT
>> "William Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:cvqdnYaIeN5QLFDfRVn-
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>already been dumbed down by the TV over my lifetime by an incredible amount.
>And it shows, too. Just watch Jay Leno's show for a few weeks.....:^)

Smoking in the U.S. and Canada is gradually being confined to the poor
and uneducated, the middle and upper classes are abadoning it. Which
is why the tobacco companies are more and more targeting the Far East.
I think that the worst thing are parents, who having been deprived of
smoking in offices and public places now smoke more at home or in
their cars, to the detriment of their children.
-Rich
William Graham - 09 Jul 2005 00:17 GMT
>>> "William Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:cvqdnYaIeN5QLFDfRVn-
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> their cars, to the detriment of their children.
> -Rich

I don't know about others, but in my case, I couldn't, "smoke more at home,
or...." It was either smoke, or don't smoke. Since I couldn't smoke at work,
and still do my job, I chose to quit. Everyone benefited from this,
including my children. Only the tobacco industry (including the farmers)
suffered......
RichA - 09 Jul 2005 04:54 GMT
>>>> "William Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:cvqdnYaIeN5QLFDfRVn-
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
>including my children. Only the tobacco industry (including the farmers)
>suffered......

Time change, we don't produce horse carts anymore so makers of those
things had to change, so tobacco farmers should consider some other
crops, I'm sure there are plenty that are money makers.  I hear
cranberries are big cash generators now.  I'd even (if I were a
government dealing with the cost of smoking in various areas),
offer farmers tax incentives to switch.
-Rich
William Graham - 09 Jul 2005 06:45 GMT
>>>>> "William Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:cvqdnYaIeN5QLFDfRVn-
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
> offer farmers tax incentives to switch.
> -Rich

But haven't you heard? - Eating more than 30 cranberries a day can cause
cancer.......And then, there is the secondary cranberry juice vapor
effect..........
JPS@no.komm - 09 Jul 2005 14:07 GMT
>This reminds me of the "medical statistic" that over 60,000 people die from
>second hand cigarette smoke every year. This ridiculous (and bogus) figure
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>proving the idiocy of their own figures by the figures themselves! They are
>not even good liars........

The effects of cigarette smoke are not immediate.  Are you really this
clueless?

Has your brain been bought by the tobacco lobby?
Signature


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  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
William Graham - 10 Jul 2005 00:19 GMT
>>This reminds me of the "medical statistic" that over 60,000 people die
>>from
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Has your brain been bought by the tobacco lobby?

The two figures, 50,000 and, (later) 60,000 are not my figures....they come
from the American Cancer Society ads on late-night radio. If you want to
know how they know all these years in advance, then ask them, not me. I am
only repeating what they put out.........
C Wright - 07 Jul 2005 02:04 GMT
On 7/6/05 6:03 PM, in article 42cc6354$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au, "Ryadia"
<just@the.group> wrote:

> So... You all think the 20D is a low noise camera, do you?
> I suppose the Panasonic and Olympus sensors are pretty bad at high ISO
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Douglas

The sky is blown out in the P&S camera shot, and the P&S shot was made with
several stops more light.  What again is this supposed to prove?
I am not either defending Canon or trying to trash P&S cameras but the
conclusions on this page are not supported by the examples.
Chuck W.
Darrell - 07 Jul 2005 02:29 GMT
> On 7/6/05 6:03 PM, in article 42cc6354$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au, "Ryadia"
> <just@the.group> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> conclusions on this page are not supported by the examples.
> Chuck W.

I dislike stupid, flawed tests and sloppy methodology...
doug - 07 Jul 2005 03:00 GMT
>>On 7/6/05 6:03 PM, in article 42cc6354$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au, "Ryadia"
>><just@the.group> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> I dislike stupid, flawed tests and sloppy methodology...

I'll spell it out for you Darell.
The myth about Canon DLSRs is that when you shoot RAW, you get a couple
of stops of exposure latitude you can apply during decoding the data to
an image.

Any exposure difference between these two cameras is a non event if that
fable is true... Which it is not because the sensor didn't capture
enough data for it to be true.

The Panasonic on the other hand has certainly blown the highlights but
it has also recorded data in a area of the picture which is the same
density as the Canon deep shadow area.

If this were film, the negatives would read both the same density on a
densometer but one would have detail and the other not. What is so
different about digital capture in your mind? The page is about
photogrpahy, not digital specifications. The question that page poses is
why can the Panasonic capture detail in an area of equal density to one
which the Canon cannot?

Douglas
Darrell - 07 Jul 2005 04:09 GMT
>>>On 7/6/05 6:03 PM, in article 42cc6354$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au, "Ryadia"
>>><just@the.group> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> stops of exposure latitude you can apply during decoding the data to an
> image.

Actually that is the myth everyone thinks of RAW. A grossly overexposed or
grossly underexposed RAW image is still bad. Tou are also comparing a 1/2.5"
(10.2mm) CCD with a 15x22.5mm CMOS. The exposure was different, regardless
of RAW. It would have been more accurate to compare a Canon S2 IS to a
Panasonic FZ-20

> Any exposure difference between these two cameras is a non event if that
> fable is true... Which it is not because the sensor didn't capture enough
> data for it to be true.

The myth was false, but spread by pseudo-experts who don't have a clue.

> The Panasonic on the other hand has certainly blown the highlights but it
> has also recorded data in a area of the picture which is the same density
> as the Canon deep shadow area.

The Panasonic and Canon also have vastly different processors Venus vs.
Digic2.

> If this were film, the negatives would read both the same density on a
> densometer but one would have detail and the other not. What is so
> different about digital capture in your mind? The page is about
> photogrpahy, not digital specifications. The question that page poses is
> why can the Panasonic capture detail in an area of equal density to one
> which the Canon cannot?

Film exposed at those vastly different exposures certainly would not have
the same density. We are also comparing sub-110 format to APS format in
sizes.
JPS@no.komm - 09 Jul 2005 14:46 GMT
>The myth was false, but spread by pseudo-experts who don't have a clue.

The myth is only a myth in the sense that it is adopted in a way that
suggests that you can get the same results in RAW with a two-stop range
of exposure.

There most certainly is more exposure latitude in a RAW file than in a
JPEG, especially a JPEG with normal contrast.

Typically, a stop of green highlights, 1.5 stops of blue highlights, and
2 stops of red highlights from the RAW data are clipped away when
converting to a normal-contrast JPEG, and red and blue highlights (1 and
0.5 stops) are clipped away, even with the lowest contrast setting, with
daylight white balance (the natural white balance of the sensor/CFA
combo is typically achieved with magenta light).  The highlights lost in
a JPEG are still there in a RAW file; if, for example, you shoot
something red, like a red flower, it may blow out the red channel in the
JPEG, and yet be unclipped in the RAW data, and then you can simply
under-expose the conversion to maintain the highlights, and then apply a
curve to compress the red highlights without blowing them in the final
output.

On the shadow end, JPEG artifacts tend to be strong relative to signal
levels, which are often smoothed, darkened or even clipped away in the
range by in-camera JPEG routines, and they tend to be a bit more
detailed if you convert them out of the camera.
Signature


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  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

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MarkH - 07 Jul 2005 04:19 GMT
>> I dislike stupid, flawed tests and sloppy methodology...
>
> I'll spell it out for you Darell.
> The myth about Canon DLSRs is that when you shoot RAW, you get a
> couple of stops of exposure latitude you can apply during decoding the
> data to an image.

Well, if you misunderstand the advantages of RAW, then maybe you could
think that.

> Any exposure difference between these two cameras is a non event if
> that fable is true... Which it is not because the sensor didn't
> capture enough data for it to be true.

I have never heard it said that it makes no difference if you under expose
by a stop or two when you shoot RAW, where the hell did you get that idea
from?

> The Panasonic on the other hand has certainly blown the highlights but
> it has also recorded data in a area of the picture which is the same
> density as the Canon deep shadow area.

Of course it did, the camera had 3 EV more to work with.

> If this were film, the negatives would read both the same density on a
> densometer but one would have detail and the other not. What is so
> different about digital capture in your mind? The page is about
> photogrpahy, not digital specifications. The question that page poses
> is why can the Panasonic capture detail in an area of equal density to
> one which the Canon cannot?

Jeez, what a tool!  Do you deliberately come out with lies or are you a
little ignorant?

How do you know that the Canon cannot capture the detail?  We certainly
don't see an equivalent picture from the Canon to compare to the Panasonic.

This is one of the stupidest tests I have seen and proves nothing beyond
the fact that exposing a shot correctly makes a difference regardless of
which camera you use.

Signature

Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 25-June-05)
"There are 10 types of people, those that
understand binary and those that don't"

Stacey - 07 Jul 2005 07:15 GMT
> I have never heard it said that it makes no difference if you under expose
> by a stop or two when you shoot RAW, where the hell did you get that idea
> from?
>  

When you have Canon fans like Scott W posting things like there is no
quality lost shooting at ISO 1600 rather than ISO 100 you wonder how BS
like this gets around? He was talking about shooting 7 stops under and
pulling an image out of it the otherday! Where were you when that sort of
BS was being posted?
Signature


 Stacey

MarkH - 07 Jul 2005 14:03 GMT
>> I have never heard it said that it makes no difference if you under
>> expose by a stop or two when you shoot RAW, where the hell did you
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and pulling an image out of it the otherday! Where were you when that
> sort of BS was being posted?

OK, That's the where.  Now what about an explanation of why any would
believe such ridiculous statements?  Clearly ISO 1600 will be noticeably
worse that ISO 100 and shooting 7 stops under might still allow an image,
but it will be absolute sh.t.

Anyone that tries to claim that a D-SLR can't match a P&S on the basis that
the D-SLR fails to live up to the incorrect assertions that it makes no
difference if shooting a couple of stops under exposed is still an idiot.

Signature

Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 25-June-05)