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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / July 2005max. display resolution to come
Hi all, what's your guess how far the resolution of displays will be improved? The current state of the art is about 2.5" and < 250 000 pixels. How are they counted? Is an RGB-pixel counted once or three times? I'll guess: * those numbers are real RGB-pixels * the max. display size won't go much beyond 2.5", limited by body size. That's about 1.5" x 2.0" (38 x 50 mm) * a reasonable max resolution is at about 300 dpi (this once was a good printing quality, while it might be insufficient for the close viewing distance on displays?) Taking 1.5" x 2.0" @ 300 dpi, that's about 270 000 pixels. That's less than the VGA resolution: 480 x 640 = 307 200. I'm surprised that current models are already that close to this value. While there are some models which are at about 110 000 pixels (1.8" display), there are others around which offer e.g. 2.0", 235 000 pixels, as an example for the current range of products. Will we get much higher resolutions in the future? I do expect improvements in brightness, contrast, viewing angle, battery consumption, but we might have almost reached the max. pixel count? What's the best, reasonable display resolution to expect? - Martin > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > * those numbers are real RGB-pixels No, three times. > * the max. display size won't go much beyond 2.5", > limited by body size. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Taking 1.5" x 2.0" @ 300 dpi, that's about 270 000 pixels. > That's less than the VGA resolution: 480 x 640 = 307 200. The Minolta A2 had a VGA resolution EVF (misleadingly described as "900,000 pixels" on the camera box). This was a delight to use, and much better than most cameras. I would like to see something like this as the minimum standard for an EVF, and would definitely be prepared to pay the extra (tell me how much first, though!). I don't use the LCD on the back of the camera much, but the VGA display on the Epson P-2000 is 3.8 inches, and rather nice. Scaling to 2.5 inches that would give 400,000 individual pixels (133,000 RGB triplets). David > > The current state of the art is about 2.5" and < 250 000 pixels. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > No, three times. Argl - so there's still plenty of improvements to come :-( > The Minolta A2 had a VGA resolution EVF (misleadingly described as > "900,000 pixels" on the camera box). This was a delight to use, and much [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and rather nice. Scaling to 2.5 inches that would give 400,000 individual > pixels (133,000 RGB triplets). Personally, I want a live view option for a digital slr, including a flip and twist LCD. Although the viewfinder is much clearer and better usable under many conditions, there are just too many examples where a live view (livemonitor?) is useful. So I'll have to ask for > 400 000 single-color-pixels or maybe even 900 000 pixels for 300 dpi. Ok, this may take some more time... Thanks, Martin [ ... ] >Personally, I want a live view option for a digital slr, including a >flip and twist LCD. Although the viewfinder is much clearer and better >usable under many conditions, there are just too many examples where a >live view (livemonitor?) is useful. Not really possible with a digital SLR -- unless Cannon applies the Pellix design to a digital SLR. (The sensor, which P&S digitals use to both drive the display and to take the photo, is covered by the mirror and the shutter with a digital SLR, so it receives no light until the moment of exposure. Someone posted a pointer to an add-on viewfinder which mounts on the eyepiece, and looks through the lens as you normally do. That might be the way to go if you *really* need this. The Pellix design uses a partially silvered fixed mirror to deflect a percentage of the light up to the viewfinder, while the majority of the light goes on through the mirror to reach the film, once the shutter is opened. However, aside from having to cycle the shutter to do the viewfinding with what you want, you also have to stop the lens down to the proper aperture. I think that such a system as you propose would make the camera's behavior un-necessarily sluggish, and *I*, for one, don't want it. I've had enough of the really sluggish behavior of P&S cameras like the CoolPix 950 (which was my first digital (though not an SLR), and which lost me quite a few good shots because of the time it took to do its autofocus and exposure setting. (Yes, I learned how to work around that, but I *far* prefer a real SLR -- digital or film. Enjoy, DoN.  SignatureEmail: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- > >Personally, I want a live view option for a digital slr, including a > >flip and twist LCD. Although the viewfinder is much clearer and better [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > mirror and the shutter with a digital SLR, so it receives no light until > the moment of exposure. In theory options could be - a secondary sensor. But does it really show the same image as the image sensor? - a semitransparent mirror. But does it reduce viewfinder brightness? In practice I'd just be happy to use a mirror lock-up in those moments and use the ordinary sensor. As far as I understand this is not done since the current sensors do not permit continous reading, either because of lifetime, noise, temperature or reading speed. For the LCD reading in lower resolution would be sufficient - but it's not a current design goal, I suppose, to permit those operations. > Someone posted a pointer to an add-on viewfinder which mounts on > the eyepiece, and looks through the lens as you normally do. That might > be the way to go if you *really* need this. This might help for some situations. But what I want may be - LCD for difficult camera positions - LCD for hi / low light display - LCD for grid line display - LCD for usage on tripod mount - LCD for further infos, such as Macro AF point ... Such an add-on solves some of it, while it can't permit the full range of options which could be available. >> >Personally, I want a live view option for a digital slr, including a >> >flip and twist LCD. Although the viewfinder is much clearer and better [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >- a semitransparent mirror. But does it reduce viewfinder brightness? The Canon EOS 20Da has live view on the camera's LCD: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0506/05060101canon20da.asp > >- a semitransparent mirror. But does it reduce viewfinder brightness? > > The Canon EOS 20Da has live view on the camera's LCD: > > http://www.dpreview.com/news/0506/05060101canon20da.asp Thanks, I know, there are some. But both this one here, as well as e.g. the Olympus E-10/E-20 versions seem to be far from perfect. Is it a semitransparent mirror?: "a partially transmissive mirror" : Mirror: Quick-return half mirror : (Transmission: reflection ratio of 40:60, no mirror cut-off with EF : 600mm f/4 or shorter lens) Is this a semitransparent mirror now, or is this a mirror lockup - or both, while the lockup must be used in darkness only? : 'Live View' mode : FC 1, which provides 5x magnification (approximately 4% of the center : of the image will be displayed on the monitor) : FC 2, which provides 10x magnification (approximately 1% of the center : of the image will be displayed on the monitor) : While traditional digital SLRs lack a live preview on the LCD monitor : due to the reflex mirror and shutter, the EOS 20Da digital SLR resolves : this issue by locking up the mirror and opening the shutter to display a : magnified live view of the subject on the 1.8? LCD monitor. (This : feature is effective for night viewing conditions only. It cannot be : used in bright light.) http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/eos20da/catalog/index02.html shows yet another limitation: : Focus cannot be adjusted manually in ?Live View? mode when using the : following lenses, which employ electronic manual focusing: EF50mm f/1.0L USM EF85mm f/1.2L USM EF200mm f/1.8L USM EF300mm f/2.8L USM EF400mm f/2.8L USM EF400mm f/2.8L ll USM EF500mm f/4.5L USM EF600mm f/4L USM EF1200mm f/5.6L USM EF28-80mm f/2.8-4L USM I guess AF is disabled then, too. I did not find any further manuals for this 20Da yet. - Martin >> >- a semitransparent mirror. But does it reduce viewfinder brightness? >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Is this a semitransparent mirror now, or is this a mirror lockup - or >both, while the lockup must be used in darkness only? Who knows? But this is DPReview, hardly a paragon of accuracy and objectivity. ;-) > But this is DPReview, hardly a paragon of accuracy and objectivity. Maybe - but it's by far the best I know. >>> >Personally, I want a live view option for a digital slr, including a >>> >flip and twist LCD. Although the viewfinder is much clearer and better [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >>- a semitransparent mirror. But does it reduce viewfinder brightness? The Pellix style camera which I suggested above was the first of Cannon's production cameras with a partially silvered fixed mirror. >The Canon EOS 20Da has live view on the camera's LCD: > >http://www.dpreview.com/news/0506/05060101canon20da.asp This is interesting -- but the description seems to be somewhat self-contradictory. "In addition the camera has a partially transmissive mirror which enables live focusing on the LCD monitor (this can only be done for short times and requires the mirror to be locked up)." The "partially transmissive mirror" should not "require the mirror to be locked up". And the "can only be done for short times" suggests either overheating in the sensor, or battery life problems, driving that large a sensor in a continuous operation mode. Enjoy, DoN. SignatureEmail: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- >>http://www.dpreview.com/news/0506/05060101canon20da.asp > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >The "partially transmissive mirror" should not "require the mirror to be >locked up". Well, that's DPReview for you. The slick, glossy presentation looks good but the words don't appear to make any sense. > And the "can only be done for short times" suggests either >overheating in the sensor, or battery life problems, driving that large >a sensor in a continuous operation mode. I would suggest anyone who is interested in the 20Da should not rely on amateurish review sites, but should contact Canon instead. > Well, that's DPReview for you. The slick, glossy presentation looks > good but the words don't appear to make any sense. > I would suggest anyone who is interested in the 20Da should not rely > on amateurish review sites, but should contact Canon instead. I would suggest that the makers should provide reasonable infos on their own. I remember, I checked for Konica Minolta image stabilisations, I checked for Olympus FourThirds, I checked for 20Da live view. None of the builders provided reasonable infos online. KM replied to my direct request - which helped a little, while it did not clarify the confusion. Olympus did not reply yet (only a few days ago. I wonder how much they are still in business). I did not ask Canon, concerning the live preview. I once asked Canon about the reason why CD printing is available with European iPs, while it's disabled for the US market. I did not receive any usable reply that time. My summary: you won't get more infos by asking directly. As long as there are poor infos online, you won't get better infos otherwise. On the other hand I feel that dpreview gives his best to provide detailed and rather unbiased comparisons. They provide much better, much more infos than the maker does and should do. So personally, I'll take dpreview as the best source up to now. Canon is not better - or what kind of info could you catch from them? Although dpreview may be wrong some (or even many) times, what's your alternative? - Martin >> Well, that's DPReview for you. The slick, glossy presentation looks >> good but the words don't appear to make any sense. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >dpreview may be wrong some (or even many) times, what's your >alternative? There is no alternative. There needs to be one, because a sponsored web site produced by one individual cannot be considered impartial, let alone authoritative. (Thanks for your detailed reply. Very interesting.) >>>http://www.dpreview.com/news/0506/05060101canon20da.asp >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I would suggest anyone who is interested in the 20Da should not rely > on amateurish review sites, but should contact Canon instead. DPreview hasn't reviewed the 20Da yet, the info is from Canon's own website. The "partially transmissive mirror" and rest are on Canon's own review. So take it up with their translators. > >>>http://www.dpreview.com/news/0506/05060101canon20da.asp > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >> enables live focusing on the LCD monitor (this can only be done > >> for short times and requires the mirror to be locked up)." > DPreview hasn't reviewed the 20Da yet, the info is from Canon's own website. > The "partially transmissive mirror" and rest are on Canon's own review. So > take it up with their translators. I don't know this from Canon's websites. Did you find it anywhere? dpreview states its own intro, including this "partially transmissive mirror" and the 'Press Release' which names mirror lock-up only. On the other hand I quoted this myself from the Canon specs: : Mirror: Quick-return half mirror : (Transmission: reflection ratio of 40:60, no mirror cut-off with EF : 600mm f/4 or shorter lens) Looks like partially transmissive, although they didn't explain (or I did not understand) the purpose. This partially transmissive mirror seems to be used within the 20D, 300D etc., too, which do not offer live view. So dpreview seems to be right that the 20Da includes a partially transmissive mirror, but got it wrong that this is used for live preview. - Martin >> >>>http://www.dpreview.com/news/0506/05060101canon20da.asp >> >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > transmissive mirror, but got it wrong that this is used for live > preview. My old manual focus Pentax LX has a semi-transparent mirror as well. It is used for it's TTL light meter. In the Canon in can be for either the exposure meter or for auto-focus. >DPreview hasn't reviewed the 20Da yet, the info is from Canon's own website. No it isn't. The section of text in question is not from Canon, but from DPReview, and it simply does not make sense. >>DPreview hasn't reviewed the 20Da yet, the info is from Canon's own >>website. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The section of text in question is not from Canon, but from DPReview, > and it simply does not make sense. I sure reads like the Googlish translated text from the Canon Japan website when the original announcement was made. The English text has been edited and corrected since February. The simple answer is the 20Da has "NO LIVE PREVIEW" the semi-transparent mirror is not a Pellix mirror, therefore the semi-transparent area must be required for either auto-focus or exposure metering. |
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